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[3.0] Integrated mods/upgrades for package manager?

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Kindred:
I guess I just don't get what you are asking...  because, to me, it seems as if ALL of that is alreayd do-able with the currently package system.

The Package manager already has package servers
The mod install already has the capability to do "upgrade" (most mod authors do not use it for a variety of reasons)
I prefer my mods installations to actually ask me (like I set my windows... only do what I tell you, don't ever assume anything)

However, these are third party add-ons that we are talking about. We can set all the "standards" that we want. What will happen is that fewer people will submit to the official mod site and fewer people will write mods at all.

SlammedDime:
Personally, I would rather alienate some mod authors in the interests of a more strict packaging and coding standards system.  All of this mickey mouse ****** on the mod site could be avoided, or more easily maintained, if there were higher standards.  It would also better serve the community to be able to easily upgrade modifications and keep up to date on their software.   Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal et al. all got this one right, SMF falls flat on it's face in this area.  The package manager is novel, and maybe it was someone's attempt to make something innovative back in the day, but with as many modifications as there are available now a days, it's simply not the right solution.

texasman1979:
Almost all the functionality for what i propose is there in one form or another. What i propose is the reinvestment of innovarion to make the tools currently available, more robust and user friendly for both the coder and the user. With all due respect, the mod site and the package manager as well as integration hooks are in its infancy. I bid thee to sprinkle some miracle grow on it and see what it can do for smf 3.0. While your fixing bugs for the 2.0 gold release is when to begin looking forward at the future. If it isnt taken hold of, someone else will.

N. N.:
While I was reading the topic, I meant to start answering by quoting texas' posts, but until I got to the end, I agree with pretty much everything he said, so I won't bother quoting. :)

Thank you for the suggestions, and everyone for the discussion. Funnily enough, if I may say so, almost all concerns are correct, IMHO. For different stages of development we're talking about.

Yes, functionality seems to exist in some shape, but it's cumbersome and "extra-work" in a sense. Yes, it needs all refactored/rewritten such that the behaviors described in the OP are possible easily. There are some little improvements that may or not belong to the 2.x line, but mostly, they're for the line further down the road. We are already planning exactly that for smCore/SMF 3.0 package manager.
Okay, I give in and quote:

--- Quote from: texasman1979 on April 27, 2011, 01:38:18 PM ---Everyone knows what windows update is as well as apt-get in linux. Id like to see in 3.0 a package manager linked to its own mods site. The package manager would display all installed mods, but also with a ping, display current versions with the ability to upgrade the mod if it is an old version. Also sub-version upgrades can be installed through it as well, ie *.1 or *.2. With this package manager, there would be a button to view/search for available mods and the ability to install then directly from the mod site. Download and install in a single click rather than downloading a zip and then uploading to the server then refreshing the package manager page, then installing the mod, etc. This idea would make simple machines mods that much more simple.

--- End quote ---

I agree, and we're looking at exactly that for the future.
Now, people seem to think of the current mod site, and by that people think of the current problems, which is exactly the issue here: the current problems (with extra work to make an <upgrade> package for example, and "enforcing standards"), should be addressed by exactly the easiness to do it instead, by a standard that doesn't really need to be enforced (or not in such strong sense in which it is understood today, as "approve mods only if" and "otherwise people will never do it"), but instead, as I've said elsewhere, provide people the right tools for the job in core, and prepare to be surprised.
Oh wait, you already said that too. :D
Thank you for the discussion, and please feel free to add ideas as to how it would better behave.

I don't think this has anything to do with premium services, or anyway not in the sense of putting them down in any way. On the contrary. I'm not aware of problems of Ubuntu having a commercial community because of apt-get.

Nothing prevents the user, or a plugin, to add yet another site to the list package manager would automatically "ping" packages from, and nothing prevents it today either. Exactly like apt-get sources, or Eclipse's updates sites. If plugins are not on a site (and on the contrary, nothing says the current mod site should be the only site offering modules or plugins, even today it's not), then they may be on another. If they aren't on any, then they need installed separately, and their updates won't be available through package manager unless they add an update site. Their choice.

Arantor:

--- Quote ---I'm not aware of problems of Ubuntu having a commercial community because of apt-get.
--- End quote ---

Not a particularly great comparison actually.

Ubuntu is, slowly, growing a commercial/premium ecosystem through the likes of Ubuntu One. Except that, the vast, vast majority of stuff users will be installing will come from the main Ubuntu repo first and foremost, then through Ubuntu One, then after that it's a wilderness. (And bear in mind, I'm using Ubuntu 11.04 *right this moment* Unity sucks, btw.)

You want anything outside the mainstream, you will be managing it yourself, that means including dealing with updates.

The exact same thing will apply here - the minute you want something outside the mainstream, you will have to manage it manually, that is to say the likes of things on BlocWeb, DzinerStudio et al. That is, unless someone plans to create a unified storefront and package server combination that allows automatic management of everything from a single place - *including* premium services, which is why Apple is so effective with its App Store.


You want to talk about premium services... the current offerings for managing premium services are nil. The current package server system provides no facilities for authentication (and even until 2.0, it didn't even advise what version is in use), which means that for premium purposes, it's useless. Last thing I want to do is provide a package server for premium customers without any kind of authentication. Chalk another requirement up, then. (And I think you'll find the same is true of Ubuntu/apt-get.)


You still miss the point though: the update platform is one thing. Actually having packages that can upgrade themselves is another. Under the current environment where so much has to be code edits, the only thing you can do is the current <upgrade> block system in the package manager, which basically instructs on how to mod a mod. I won't get into how flawed this approach is, and how fragile it is.

So not only will you need to figure out a mechanism for making mods more robust, you will also need to devise a whole new system for getting mods to be updated, and preferably one that doesn't require mod authors figuring out what changes need to be made between versions so that they don't have to maintain two separate code branches, one of the trunk and one of changes between versions.


And please, don't tell me that parable of 'if you build it, they will come'. It isn't happening: SMF has very, very long since had the ability to do a great many things without touching the themes, yet mod authors have been touching the themes for a very long time. Even current mods by current team members are doing this very thing when they do not need to be.

As you've said: the majority of the tools are already there... why not start by looking at why no-one's using them (because it's structurally broken, impractical and far too unwieldy to use for any mod of actual size), and start figuring out how to fix that, instead of looking outwards for a solution?

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