CSS height prob

[Tim]

I'm not trying to say you guys are wrong about IE and Mozilla, I'm just saying there is a difference of opinion.  Before you go smashing CSS implementation in Mozilla, you should go to http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/ in both IE and Mozilla.  Eric Meyers literally wrote the book on CSS.  Actually he wrote several.  Be sure to check out "Pure CSS Popups" and "ComplexSpiral" in his upper left hand navigation.  Also be sure to read his caveats on why some stuff works in Mozilla... but doesn't work in IE.

For the love of, and because Eric Meyers wrote it it MUST be true. The same Eric Meyers who mailed me? The same Meyers who works for Mozilla/Netscape? And he doesn't say a bad word about it, nah?

You don't hear me say that Opera doesn't work, mainly because I'm using Opera to post this. I'm saying I'm tired of hearing Mozillacases like Meyers whining about how bad IE is, and how good Zilla is.

[mephisto_kur]

Maybe if you weren't so belligerent, people would be more willing to deal with you about the issue.  This is the second time I have posted and specified my preference for coding for Mozilla and you jumped down my throat.  Do you know me?  Is there any reason for you to declare that I am a "Mozillacase" and that I think people should ignore IE like you think I said in the other thread?

As for Eric Meyers, well, why the hell should it matter who he works for?  Truth is truth even if it comes from a "Mozillacase" - why does it bother you so much?  Opera sees Meyer's site just fine.  Why can't you understand that IE does not?

[Tim]

It bothers me that people quote Meyers, who works for Mozilla in an arguement about it's limits. Yes, it has it's limits and yes they go further then IE, but fact is that IE has the more basic things down, compared to mozilla that has very advanced features but fails on a combination of several things.

I'm not jumping down your throat, I'm jumping down the throat of Mozilla fans that bash IE and keep whining about it. I mean, yes Mozilla is a better browser, but IE has the bigger market share. Let's compare it to Ikonboard and YaBB. Yabb is the better product but Ikonboard is the most downloaded...

[mephisto_kur]

Does that make Ikonboard something you should champion?  Shouldn't you be more prone to point at the virtues of the better product?  You know as well as I that IE sucks.  That's why (I assume) you use Opera, right?  You and I do the same thing.  We take a browser that does things correctly, then we tweak for the piece of crap that everyone uses.

Oh, and I entirely disagree with the concept of Mozilla sucking at simple stuff.  You should really check into the IE issue I brought up before.  IE for Windows cannot draw a box that complies with the standards.  That is why a box looks wider on IE than it does on Mozzy or Opera.  I still find it disturbing that MS has chosen to make IE 5 for the Mac just as good a browser as Mozzy or Opera.

I occasionally ahve a problem with weird stuff happening on Mozzy.  Just like any browser, it isn't perfect.  But for the most part, its *my* fault when stuff goes wrong.  It is so unforgiving with code that it shows mistakes very well.  I just have always hated that IE ignores those mistakes.

What it comes down to is that I want *all* of my users to be able to use my site.  So I work from the hard side, then tweak for the more forgiving, easier side.

[Tyris]

... can you guys stop flaming each other.... it appears that IE sucks and thats accepted... and Mozilla doesn't... but it all comes down to opinion with what you want your browser to do...

in the mean time... maybe you could gimme some advice on link color? (for the menu)

[mephisto_kur]

Hehe, I think we are past flaming and on to almost agreeing!

I really like your site, BTW.  I can't wait to see it with SMF in there.  As for link color, that's a tough one on the color background....

Wow, thats a hard color to make the links stand out.

[mephisto_kur]

D5DDF9 maybe?

[Tyris]

well... I'm using a darker blue colour for the links in the content... but I wanna use something else for the Menu links...
that color seems pretty good.... I'll give it a try...

I've done quite a bit to the design.. and latest design is here:
http://wip.square-cubed.com/nintengen5/index2.html

Do you think a forum would look ok with the posters stats on the right on that 'menu' thing?... coz otherwise I'd have to remove the entire column (if I put the profile bits on that column I only have to change the [menu] but to [posted by] or something...)

thanx for the input ^_^ and thanks for the compliments

[mephisto_kur]

I think it would look fine!

[[Unknown]]

I'm just going to say one thing:

You can't get people to suddenly start using a better product unless you have a lot of money.  Not many of us here do, so...

LIVE WITH IT.

For all intents and purposes, IE is "the holder of all that is HTML."  Just because Opera and Mozilla are much better... doesn't matter a bit.  W3C means nothing - what means something is WHERE YOUR USERS ARE.

-[Unknown]

[Haase]

For all intents and purposes, IE is "the holder of all that is HTML."  Just because Opera and Mozilla are much better... doesn't matter a bit.  W3C means nothing - what means something is WHERE YOUR USERS ARE.

Well, I don't think anyone can argue with that.  Still, looking at web stats over the last couple of years from my own sites, I've seen a steady drop in usage of IE.  Allright...  so It's steadily dropped from 95% to 85%.  Maybe in 5 years it will be about 50/50, at which point it probably won't matter anymore because there will be valid CSS4 and browser support will be completely different.

I'm still, and I think everyone should be, an advocate for developing for a consistent look across ALL browsers.  That means if you can't use a particular CSS feature because you can't make it work in Mozilla, or you can't make it work in IE, you need to find an alternative.

Really, I think this argument about "which is a better browser" is really kind of beneath us.  It's a user-level argument.  The blantant truth is we need to develop for all browsers.  We have no power over what the end user chooses to surf with.  Saying you're not going to develop for Mozzy because that 10-15% of users doesn't matter is either arrogance or laziness.  Saying you're not going to develop for IE and force people to change to Mozzy is equally as stupid.

[Tyris]

I'd agree with most of that... but I'd also say that if theres something that isn't 100% compliant with all browsers but is with the w3 and makes a small visual error... then not to worry about it
My current layout has a small difference in IE, that the background doesn't line up perfectly with main section... but it does in Mozzilla... so I figure it looks almost so its its ok...
If its something that severely screws up something.. or blocks some content... something like that... then definately change it.

[Seph|roth]

these are the latest stats from W3Schools...



now i know stats aren't 100% reliable, but it's pretty obvious to me... I design my websites pretty much specifically for IE. Then i test it with other browsers. If it looks sort of right, then there's no prob i think. If it doesn't look right, i inform my visitors that the page looks better with IE and advise them to use that.

It saves me a lot of work trying to make my site compliant with all browsers.

[Aoshi]

There is an identify as <browser> setting in most browsers other than IE, and if I remember correctly, a lot of the time, the default vaue is MSIE 6, and that affects those results.

I think the time it takes for the ratio of IE users to other browser users to get to 50:50 is solely dependant on the webmasters that make sure whether the webpage renders correctly in whatever browser. If you want the users to switch to a browser that meets the standards better and updates as the standards change, then you should design a page for that browser, and all else second. By second, I mean make sure it works in that browser, but don't stress over it.

I do think that designing a page for whatever browser is most popular is important and most would prefer to do it that way because it probably will attract more users, but I think it is better to design a page for your preferred browser, and just make sure that it only renders properly in the popular browser.

I design my websites pretty much specifically for IE. Then i test it with other browsers. If it looks sort of right, then there's no prob i think. If it doesn't look right, i inform my visitors that the page looks better with IE and advise them to use that.

I don't think that what Seph|roth is doing will be good for the future of the webdesigning community.

[[Unknown]]

I make sure it looks as exactly correct in both as possible.  Since I use valid xhtml normally, this is no problem.  The only issue is css stuff (like this topic is about..) so I don't use them if they aren't supported everywhere.

Generally, I make sure it works on KHTML, Gecko (Netscape 6+), Opera, and MSIE.  If it doesn't work on all of them, I work out a way for it to.

But screw Netscrape (4.x) .

-[Unknown]

[Owdy]

But screw Netscrape (4.x) .

Yeah, if someone still surfs internet with NN4, he/she is asking for troubles.