The W3C and Microsoft

Oldiesmann · November 03, 2003, 10:27:23 AM

Lately, it seems that Microsoft and the W3C are fighting one another because Microsoft has developed some new features that are supported in their browser but that the W3C hasn't made standard. These include CSS Scrollbars (special CSS properties that control what the scrollbar in the browser looks like), as well as "bordercolorLight" and "bordercolorDark" attributes for the table tag, giving the table a nice 3D effect. Personally, I think the W3C should standardize these two things, because it's fun making the scrollbar match your webpage, and giving tables a 3D effect. Why do you think the W3C isn't making these things standard? I know they declared that CSS scrollbars are "illegal" and have even developed a way for users of IE6 and other browsers supporting this to keep their scrollbars from changing when their browser encounters this code.

Tim · November 03, 2003, 10:32:07 AM

yeah, I agree that these things should be made standard

SparkieGeek · November 03, 2003, 10:36:37 AM

I disagree.

Scrollbars should be customized by the user through their OS not a website! If you don't subscribe to that, then surely you're opening the door to websites changing the entire interface of the browser.... "but my site looks better when the back button is rainbow coloured"

Oldiesmann · November 03, 2003, 10:54:01 AM

No, I don't want people being able to customize the buttons on a browser, especially since every browser is different. I just think that colored scrollbars should be standard. Since some people won't like it, there could be an option to turn off this feature in the browser's settings...

chris · November 03, 2003, 11:24:47 AM

My personal opinion is that Microsuxx should first write a truely CSS-compatible browser an THEN they could think about introducing new features...

David · November 03, 2003, 11:43:18 AM

Quote from: Christian Land on November 03, 2003, 11:24:47 AM
My personal opinion is that Microsuxx should first write a truely CSS-compatible browser an THEN they could think about introducing new features...

Amen to that!

I like my scrollbars as they are on my Mac, don't want people changing them for the hell of it.

mephisto_kur · November 03, 2003, 11:57:58 AM

It isn't a fight. Microsoft, as of the last time I checked, has never submitted them for approval.

And I agree with getting CSS right in IE before adding more crap.

Acf · November 03, 2003, 12:30:43 PM

Quote from: mephisto_kur on November 03, 2003, 11:57:58 AM
It isn't a fight. Microsoft, as of the last time I checked, has never submitted them for approval.

And I agree with getting CSS right in IE before adding more crap.

whats the use talking about this if m$ will not change? (

argh kick gates his as!!

)

Spaceman-Spiff · November 03, 2003, 12:47:25 PM

any rumors when IE7 will be out?
any specifications on this?

i hope they'll also add proper PNG-24 support

[Unknown] · November 03, 2003, 12:50:01 PM

Longhorn..... except the plugin thing, but that's a downgrade.

They aren't going to make an IE 7 for XP. At least according to them...

-[Unknown]

Peter Duggan · November 03, 2003, 02:15:27 PM

I *hate* coloured scrollbars because I regard the scrollbar as part of the browser and not of the site! Sometimes I don't even notice them because I'm not looking for them, so I'd honestly be quite happy if every coloured scrollbar in existence somehow just spontaneously reverted to the standard sort...

Tyris · November 03, 2003, 06:24:06 PM

QuoteUpgrading the forum...
Don't worry, we will be back shortly with an updated forum. It will only be a minute .

nooooo, message looooost

I personally regard the scrollbar as a part of the page.. at least more so than anything else in a browser... especially when they're in frames, or scrollable divs etc... (speaking of which.. IE do scrolling divs so bad!!!)
Some sites just do colored scrollbars really well... make it really fit in nicely. Of course it should be disableable.

[Unknown] · November 03, 2003, 06:32:19 PM

But it's the type of thing that would be a mod for SMF...... see what I mean?

-[Unknown]

Tyris · November 03, 2003, 06:51:33 PM

*is confused* have I missed something..?
colored scroll-bars as a mod...? well its just a template thing ...

sucks that M$ aren't gonna release another IE... I dont see why not... are they just really intent about not complying 100% to the WC3 standards...?
The Longhorn IE (last time I checked in build 4029 I think it was) hasnt really changed much... tho features a supposedly 'dandy' download manager.

[Unknown] · November 03, 2003, 09:00:36 PM

I mean it's a mod-like thing.... not a builtin-like thing.

And, no, it's mainly because they want to spy on us, and that's hard with older OSes. Since they are building it into both Longhorn and IE, they will work well together..... but not well with other operating systems.

Well, not really spy. Rather, imagine you download a file and the next day you cannot read it anymore.... or imagine a virus that does this to all your files. Lovely, huh? Gotta love rights management. So clearly thought out - by money and the RIAA

.

-[Unknown]

mephisto_kur · November 04, 2003, 11:21:06 AM

I don't care about rights management. No matter what they do to protect the stuff, within seconds of release it gets cracked. It's like the whole iTunes thing. People pissed that you can only grab protected AAC files. But I've had an app that will convert protected AAC files to MP3, Ogg, Wav, even WMA without missing a beat, and it's been able to do it since the first hint of AAC hit the web.

When it comes down to it, copyright protection only incoveniences legit customers. Pirates and savvy users just get used to an extra step in the copying process.

[Unknown] · November 04, 2003, 12:07:44 PM

This rights management is different. The processor does it, at the command of programs and virii.... 2003 has bultin support for some of it, in fact.

-[Unknown]

mephisto_kur · November 04, 2003, 12:26:34 PM

As I said, it doesn't matter. It will be stripped\cracked\hacked in seconds of release.

Oldiesmann · November 05, 2003, 09:35:15 AM

Why is Microsoft being so stingy with their software? The deal with future versions of internet explorer is that you will not be able to download new versions - you'll have to buy the new operating system to get it...

Tyris · November 05, 2003, 04:36:33 PM

which sucks... coz it means we gotta wait till 2006 to get an IE that is remotely better

mephisto_kur · November 05, 2003, 10:00:39 PM

It is in Microsoft's best interest to not comply fully with the standards. Look at the arguments people pop up with here. Even Unknown has said he thinks you should program for IE. Why? Because it is 90% of the market share. If they became standards compliant, all those sites that only work in IE would not work, plus there would be no reason other than the time it takes to download Firebird to stop people from switching away even faster. As long as sites work okay in IE, and web programmers don't force MS to follow the rules *en mass*, we will have faulty browsers from MS. I would be downright *stunned* if IE 7 is more than a smidge better than IE6.

Tyris · November 05, 2003, 10:07:18 PM

mmmm, good point... even so... I still reckon it'd be great if everything complied 100%, I'd have no problem converting my pages to something thats 100% compliant..

[Unknown] · November 11, 2003, 02:55:58 AM

Quote from: [Unknown] on November 03, 2003, 12:50:01 PM
Longhorn..... except the plugin thing, but that's a downgrade.

They aren't going to make an IE 7 for XP. At least according to them...

-[Unknown]

Or maybe they plan to add more features and just not call it IE 7. Either way I doubt there will be many changes to actual DOM handling...

http://news.com.com/2100-1032_3-5105139.html?tag=nefd_top

-[Unknown]

Haase · November 12, 2003, 10:47:47 PM

The problem that I see with Microsoft here isn't the fact that they're going to go ahead and add colored scrollbars... yeah... colored scrollbars... if you want to do that you can do it. (I wouldn't bother). Although it *would* be nice if I can control the border on a select box like I can control the border on a textarea... Nothing like having a nice complete crisp looking web form, ruined by an ugly ass select box right in the middle of it. But I digress...

The problem is the way that Microsoft approaches standards in general. They have this cart before the horse kind of strategy where they say... "okay, this is the way we coded things... so this should be the standard." Where-as everyone else sits around and says... "Okay, we need to do some coding... what are the standards we should follow"

To me, it's just another part of Microsofts business strategy... if we make it first, then it becomes a standard, then by the time everyone else adopts it, we'll be at least 1 year ahead of them. (Everyone who wants colored scrollbars in 2005 will by Longhorn immediately as apposed to waiting until 2006 for it to become a standard and appear everywhere else in 2006).

This is just the tip of the iceberg, really. I was reading in Software Development times this afternoon that Longhorn will also contain some proprietary XML technology. There will be a lot of things in Longhorn that takes a basis from "standards" and then blows them out so that they're incompatible with everything else. For the normal everyday desktop user, it doesn't really matter. But I think Microsoft is really going to bite themselves in the butt, because it's the developers who are starting to get miffed about it, and ultimately these are the people that create the things that go on the desktop.

Pretty soon it's going to be so that only Microsoft products will work on a Microsoft Operating System - which is just the way that Bill Gates wants things... if he's not careful, he's going to get his wish.

News:

The W3C and Microsoft

chris