Just an observation

Started by AlecWest, October 15, 2013, 06:17:09 AM

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AlecWest

I recently acquired a dedicated server.  And my Plesk control panel gave me a number of choices for forum software - SMF being one of them - all set up as "one-click installs."  I installed SMF software and configured it to where I liked it.  But then someone brought up the fact that SMF forum software doesn't have protection against spammers/spambots ... and that this protection has to be installed after the fact in one or more "mods."

Because spammers/spambots have been the bain of forum administrators for years, I'm surprised that in 2013 this scenario still prevails.  And I'm curious whether, at some point in the future, SMF will provide forum software with these current "mods" already part of the one-click install packages (as well as capcha-style or funcapcha-style verification).

As things are now, imagine this scenario.  You buy a car.  And as you're driving out of the lot, you ram into a bunch of other cars.  Seeing this, the dealer runs out to you and says, "Oh, didn't I tell you?  Brakes are a mod you have to install after you buy the car.  Surely you didn't expect us to install that mod for you."

Ahem.

P.S.  Is there any other forum software out there in which spammer/spambot protection is already included in the install?

Regards,
J. Alec West


margarett

SMF ships with Captcha and verification questions as anti-spam measures.
And you can configure the new registrations to go through post approval (although that doesn't prevent registrations)

The remaining MODs usually imply access to IP/email databases and, as such, are not provided as core functions.

So it is not true that SMF has no anti-spam functions.
Se forem conduzir, não bebam. Se forem beber... CHAMEM-ME!!!! :D

QuoteOver 90% of all computer problems can be traced back to the interface between the keyboard and the chair

AlecWest

Quote from: Illori on October 15, 2013, 06:24:03 AM

http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Spam_-_my_forum_is_flooded_with_spam,_what_can_I_do


Read the last sentence on that page.

...and...

Quote from: margarett on October 15, 2013, 06:31:48 AM

The remaining MODs usually imply access to IP/email databases and, as such, are not provided as core functions.


Thank you for your answers.  Both answers seem to answer my first question - that SMF has no plans to incorporate the same spammer/spambot protection that can currently be had only with a mod installation ... the exception being existing capcha protection.

This leaves me with my last question unanswered - if there's other forum software out there that includes spammer/spambot protection (via existing databases) in their one-click-install packages?

Regards,
J. Alec West

Tavsih

You should use email activation method of registration.

And this mod : http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=999

I personally use the above method and no bots at all.

margarett

Email activation is pointless these days.

@Alec: the best anti-spam measure is carefully chosen questions/answers.
I'm not saying you're not right. I'm just saying is not such a big issue as you might be seeing it.

As for other softwares, I honestly don't know but a quick search in the sites of the "reference" ones should help you quickly ;)
Se forem conduzir, não bebam. Se forem beber... CHAMEM-ME!!!! :D

QuoteOver 90% of all computer problems can be traced back to the interface between the keyboard and the chair

kat

The problem, I suspect, with having all these anti-spam features, as standard, is that the spamtards find ways around them. So, they often become obsolete, after a while.

The thing about spammers, that I really don't understand, is why they do it.

If I go to a site, forum or otherwise, and see some twonk making a post, or whatever, advertising hotels in India, and I was planning a trip, there, the very last place that I'd consider, would be a hotel that employed spamtards to put the word around.

I guess some idiots must be responding to these damned ads, or they wouldn't post them.

On a couple of sites that I use, we usually leave the spam in place, edited.

So, "Come and stay at the Chapti hotel because it's great" gets changed to something like "Don't stay at the Chapati hotel, because the food's rancid, the place smells like a rubbish tip and the owner is a flea infested child-molester".

Funnily enough, the level of new Spam has dropped, considerably. ;)

I've tried that, here. Sadly, some moderator, or other, always deletes them. :(

Arantor

QuoteThe thing about spammers, that I really don't understand, is why they do it.

It's all about economies of scale. Making 10,000 posts across the web costs a few pence in the scheme of things. It only takes one or two people to actually buy whatever rubbish they're hawking to have made it worth it.

kat

Best we eliminate the one or two, then. ;)

Kindred

Additionally, many of those mods use third party sites and functions to stop the spammers.
SMF tried not to incorporate features which REQUIRE a third party registration and/or configuration on order to use.

Why? Well, because every time the third party changes their API, we would HAVE to make an immediate release (and the feature would break for anyone who did not immediately update). Just look at the hassle that we had because we support PayPal... and they changes their API a while ago - which broke people's payment systems.

Even "huge" softwares like WordPress leave third party spam protection as an add-on.


And Alex, your analogy is completely off base. SMF is the full car, including wheels, body, brakes and seats...
A more appropriate analogy (keeping to your car purchase theme) would be, if you buy a car... and you want fully tinted privacy windows AND electronic fingerprint locks...
You have a sun visor that comes standard... and locks on the doors.   tinted windows and fingerprint locks require after-market additions.

BTW: as of 2.0.x, SMF comes with the "questions" feature as a standard feature. Using this alone (with a good question) is 1000 times more effective than CAPTCHA.
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

AlecWest

Again, thanks to all who replied.  At this point, I think I'll just postpone plans to run my own forum until I become more knowledgeable about the different software choices available.

Regards,
J. Alec West

AlecWest

Quote from: Kindred on October 15, 2013, 10:12:45 AM

And Alex, your analogy is completely off base.


Actually, I think it was spot-on.  On a car, brakes are a "necessity," not a mere "feature."  And in today's world, vigorous methods to thwart spammers and spambots are a "necessity," not a mere "feature" - unless a forum administrator wants administration to become a "career" function. 8)

Regards,
J. Alec West

Kindred

Even if you look at it that way (and I disagree) we do already provide the necesarry "brakes"

in 2.0.x, we have the questions functionality which is often 99% effective at preventing spammers (asusming you use good questions)

The "other stuff" that you seem to be looking for is all after-market options.


Besides, what is wrong with using mods? They get updated more frequently than the core code, they (mostly) have good support from the authors and they allow you to customize your measures to suit your needs, desires and targets more than any "fixed feature" would do.
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Chalky

Alec, you seem to have missed the message that SMF comes with anti-spam verification questions which is a very effective defence against spammers.  My forum, when protected by those questions alone, gets ZERO spam.  Of course, you have to configure the questions yourself after install otherwise the spam bots would know what questions and answers were used and it would be no use whatsoever.

AlecWest

Quote from: ChalkCat on October 15, 2013, 02:01:06 PM
Alec, you seem to have missed the message that SMF comes with anti-spam verification questions which is a very effective defence against spammers.  My forum, when protected by those questions alone, gets ZERO spam.  Of course, you have to configure the questions yourself after install otherwise the spam bots would know what questions and answers were used and it would be no use whatsoever.

Would you give me a link to your forum?

Regards,
J. Alec West

AlecWest

Quote from: Kindred on October 15, 2013, 02:00:30 PM

Besides, what is wrong with using mods? They get updated more frequently than the core code, they (mostly) have good support from the authors and they allow you to customize your measures to suit your needs, desires and targets more than any "fixed feature" would do.


What's wrong with mods?  I thought you already answered that question yourself:

Quote from: Kindred on October 15, 2013, 10:12:45 AM

Well, because every time the third party changes their API, we would HAVE to make an immediate release (and the feature would break for anyone who did not immediately update).


First, my topic title is "Just an observation."  The point I'm trying to make in all this is in the 2nd paragraph of my very first post to this thread.  I'm assuming that SMF developers and mod developers are on the same page ... that they both want to provide the best protection possible.  And, assuming SMF and anti-spam mods are both made free to the public (open-source?), it surprises me that in all this time, these developers haven't sat down at the same table and reached a cooperative agreement - allowing mods to be "included" in one-click-install packages ... as well as a cooperative agreement regarding implementation of API changes.

As I said, this is just an observation.

Regards,
J. Alec West

emanuele

Quote from: AlecWest on October 15, 2013, 06:17:09 AM
As things are now, imagine this scenario.  You buy a car.  And as you're driving out of the lot, you ram into a bunch of other cars.  Seeing this, the dealer runs out to you and says, "Oh, didn't I tell you?  Brakes are a mod you have to install after you buy the car.  Surely you didn't expect us to install that mod for you."
Nice analogy, I see it from a slightly different point of view: you buy a car and while driving you listen the radio. At a certain point you enter a different country and you can't hear anything. You stop at the first garage and the mechanic tells you you have to change the car because the local radio uses a different frequency. Does that sound reasonable?

That would be almost the same with anti-spam features that rely on third-parties sites: if the site changes the way to do something a new version of SMF should be released and you'd have to update/upgrade just for something you may not even need (I'm not using any particular anti-spam mod, just the plain verification questions...well I'm cheating here because I use SMF 1.1 and at that time the verification questions *were* a mod, but they are now part of the core...oh, wait...developers actually used mods to improve SMF anti-spam features! :o)


Take a peek at what I'm doing! ;D




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Kindred

ummm... Alec,

My statement about third party APIs actually is an argument **FOR** releasing spam protection as a mod.

Mods are much easier to update than the whole core software...

and no... we will **NEVER** have a version of SMF be released with "preinstalled mods"
It either makes it into the core (as the questions feature did) or the admins will install it as a mod by their choice. NEVER, EVER, EVER bundled.
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

AlecWest

Thank you.  My questions have all been answered.

Regards,
J. Alec West

Chalky

Quote from: AlecWest on October 15, 2013, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: ChalkCat on October 15, 2013, 02:01:06 PM
Alec, you seem to have missed the message that SMF comes with anti-spam verification questions which is a very effective defence against spammers.  My forum, when protected by those questions alone, gets ZERO spam.  Of course, you have to configure the questions yourself after install otherwise the spam bots would know what questions and answers were used and it would be no use whatsoever.

Would you give me a link to your forum?

Regards,
J. Alec West


Link's in the sig.  Knock yourself out  ;)

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