Child boards - just wondering

Started by Auke, July 19, 2014, 08:47:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

live627

Quote from: ‽ on July 19, 2014, 10:38:03 PMUnknown described it years ago that the SMF team was SMF's biggest enemy.
'm gonna scare the entire team and declare agreement with this.

Oh and one more thing: Nostalgia should never trump logic, ever.

Kindred

Nor does it, live... 

And, with your agreement, you would be just as wrong as Arantor is.  The current team is good and is working.  Yes, there are some bumps and some things which can be done better, but we are 1000x in a better state than the team was a year ago.
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

live627

I wouldn't go as far as 1000x... but no denying things have improved :)

Arantor

If where you are now is anything like it was 10 months ago, you and I have very, very different definitions of 'working'. And if where you are now is anything like it was 6 months ago, you and I still have very, very different definitions of 'working'.

Hint: if someone new to the team tells you there's non-trivial problems, denial really isn't the best course of action.

Further hint: I mentioned that someone came to me to show me the state of play with Github and design-by-committee. This person was the last person that I would have expected to come to me about such things, and if *they*'re showing me signs of frustration with how things are, things really are not nearly as lovely and spiffy as you like to claim.

I would suggest you talk to your team, Mr Project Manager. Something is very wrong and I don't think you can see it.

LiroyvH

Quote
I don't care about the team (I do care about specific people on the team, and the members as people, but certainly not as a disorganisation). I care about the software and its reputation for being good at what it does. In spite of the lack of care from the team towards it, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Good, then the care is for the same thing.
But there is absolutely no lack of care from the team.

When you find flaws, that doesn't mean there is lack of care.
It simply means mistakes have been made when it's a valid mistake.
Lots of facepalming ensued when for example looking at a mistake made with 2.0.8. It's been very closely looked at and steps were taken to prevent it.

How is that lack of care?
Just because mistakes have been made doesn't mean there is no care and that people are just doing nothing, say "f-it" and go on rocking around with their... Well, nvm about that.

Imho, the concern is valid: but the conclusion is invalid.
That there are tons of people on the team working tons of hours to ensure problems are solved when they occur or have been pointed out, that SMF is running and that people get the help they need with the product is damn good proof of that if you ask me.
The team cares, the team is passionate, the team is driven to do their best. That... Is far from anything even remotely close to "lack of care towards the software and its reputation for being good at what it does". Especially as SMF is still good at what it does, whether or not it might need some upgrades here and there or not.

But of course, you can disagree.


Quote
I guess it never occurred to the team that if everyone pitched in with testing patches, there would be less support issues after release, which benefits everyone?

It sure did.
And changes have been made to attempt to get more people testing.

Quote
Only in the last day or so I was greatly amused by the notions of demarcation, because apparently the help tooltips in the software are not considered documentation and therefore not the responsibility of the documentation team, despite being the first port of call for admins, even before going to the wiki.

Haven't read the discussion on that one.

Quote
Or indeed, people from other teams helping out. Time was when everyone worked together and got on, rather than 'this is my job, I'm sticking to it' which is where things seem to be.

Hmmm, yes and no.
Yes, because not everyone in specific teams can help the other.
Eg; a localizer may perhaps know nothing about coding and as such isn't exactly going to help with bugfixing. (Actually, Antes did; but you get what I mean anyway.)
No, because that's not total reality. Customizers helping developers and vice versa (although usually, that can end up with the customizer moving to dev team; negating the effect of "one team helping the other" even though the new dev usually continues helping out cust team), developers helping site team and vice versa, documentation and localization working together... That's not exactly "this is my job and I'm sticking to it". :)

Quote
I guess no-one ever realised why I ran around and did so many things. It was because I wanted to pitch in and help, especially since every area affects every other area.

That's good, when you can.
Not everybody can.

Quote
And you don't? You honestly think that the way things are is the best it can be?

I never said that. In my experience there is pretty much always room for improvement.
What I was saying, however, is that not everything is in for a change or should be at all.
And that's just a matter of opinion.

Quote
The sad part is that it required two consecutive bad patches to point out that change was needed.

And steps have been taken... As you're well aware last I checked.
Yep sure, not the nicest thing to happen. But it did shake up some people and the team as a whole made changes to limit chances of that happening again.
Then there's two things that can be done: either wait and see, or keep dragging it up whilst people can't exactly go back in time: there's only looking back, learn from a mistake, and then move *forward*.

Yep a mistake was made. Ok, steps have been taken.
What more can possibly be desired? Why should it be brought back up?
Even though recent of course, that's still dwelling on the past. Learn from the past, but don't linger when an error has been made; rather try to learn from it and proceed onwards.
(And yes, too bad it took a second mistake. It happens. Attempts to fix a mistake can also turn out to be a mistake.)

Quote
Repeating it doesn't make it go away but it does make sure people are aware of it, and it might start to shake the denial out of the place. Because if I'm repeating it, I still believe it's a problem that needs addressing.

That's just it, people *are* aware of mistakes that've been pointed out. No denial...
Hence keep shouting it at them is not really helpful and can actually be quite a demotivator when you're trying to focus on other things...
Imagine you made a mistake, and you're trying to fix it, but over your shoulder someone keeps shouting at you how bad of a crapstick of a job you're doing, you're worth nothing, you are absolutely careless and are "the biggest enemy to the product"... That's not very nice nor useful.

Don't get me wrong and please don't rip it out of context.
Pointing out a mistake and, if it doesn't seem to be solved or it's forgotten, reminding people of it is absolutely a good thing, and I'd wish more people would do it. It's sincerely appreciated.
I'm merely trying to point out that the behavior of making downright degenerating posts isn't really helpful at all.

If you feel something is bad or you're annoyed, making it known is not bad.
But to say stuff like "you are SMF's biggest enemy", "you have absolutely no care", "you're not interested in SMF"; that part is absolutely unnecessary.

You don't have to sugarcoat anything. But there is no need to add poison to it either. ;)
You don't even have to be nice and you can get angry. But sometimes, the comments are simply a bit mean. And that's no use either.

That's all I'm saying.

Quote
I recognise that change takes time, even when I'm the one making changes. But to make change, one has to accept that change is even needed, not live in denial. It shouldn't take multiple failed patches to ensure there is a proper procedure in place.

It shouldn't, but it did. Tough luck. Sh-- happens. Move on, and try again... Better luck next time.
Past events are to learn from, not to keep complaining about whilst multiple steps have already been taken.

Quote
Heck, even having a policy of 'nobody can merge their own commits' would help. It might not help those who don't bother to look at commits and just merge, but baby steps. Then you can start introducing peer review. Or indeed any kind of review whatsoever.

I fully agree.

Quote
I would suggest you talk to your team, Mr Project Manager. Something is very wrong and I don't think you can see it.

There isn't.
But if someone feels the need to complain, then it would be rather stupid not to complain to the team but in private where nobody can see it.
The worst type of frustration is when keeping the frustration to yourself but pretend to be vomiting sunshine, seeing rainbows everywhere and ride unicorns to go from topic to topic.

So apparently, if anything is wrong: it's communication and lack of speaking up in the places that were actually designed and made for that purpose; rather than somewhere that was not designed for it nor can be looked at by the team to see if it can be improved.
((U + C + I)x(10 − S)) / 20xAx1 / (1 − sin(F / 10))
President/CEO of Simple Machines - Server Manager
Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

Arantor

QuoteGood, then the care is for the same thing.
But there is absolutely no lack of care from the team.

A team that can't even get the fixed version of its own software on its own site in 6 months. A team that won't do its own testing.

I call it a lack of care for the software. What do you call it? The fact 2.0.8 prompted change...

No, let's back up a minute. You're asserting that I know changes are happening. I'm telling you flat out that I don't. I hear lots of claims from you and Kindred that procedures are being put in place so this doesn't happen again.

I seem to recall this being mentioned after 2.0.7, but funnily enough that didn't happen either.

The fact that 2.0.8 prompted change is a thing. It's not a good thing because it shouldn't have happened beforehand. I specifically said in the run-up to both 2.0.7 and 2.0.8 that more testing should be done because I wasn't sure of the code quality. I was flat out asking the team to do more testing. And surprise...

QuoteEven though recent of course, that's still dwelling on the past. Learn from the past, but don't linger when an error has been made; rather try to learn from it and proceed onwards.

I would but putting aside all the 'we're making changes' mantra, I see absolutely no evidence that either learning or proceeding to fix it is actually happening.

QuoteBut to say stuff like "you are SMF's biggest enemy", "you have absolutely no care", "you're not interested in SMF"; that part is absolutely unnecessary.

No, it's absolutely necessary. Anything less is ignored.

QuoteBut if someone feels the need to complain, then it would be rather stupid not to complain to the team but in private where nobody can see it.

I did. Multiple times. Except the lessons are still not being learned.

QuoteThe worst type of frustration is when keeping the frustration to yourself but pretend to be vomiting sunshine, seeing rainbows everywhere and ride unicorns to go from topic to topic.

So stop vomiting sunshine already.

QuoteSo apparently, if anything is wrong: it's communication and lack of speaking up in the places that were actually designed and made for that purpose; rather than somewhere that was not designed for it nor can be looked at by the team to see if it can be improved.

You mean like how half the team communicates with each other via PM because they're unwilling to speak their mind in the team boards? Because that is happening, even now.

Steve

Probably too late for this but nonetheless:

Quote from: BurkeKnight on July 19, 2014, 09:09:05 PMSub-Board Mod

Or this one that will allow you to rename child boards to whatever you want:

Customize 'Child board'
DO NOT pm me for support!

LiroyvH

Quote
A team that can't even get the fixed version of its own software on its own site in 6 months. A team that won't do its own testing.

I call it a lack of care for the software. What do you call it? The fact 2.0.8 prompted change...

No, let's back up a minute. You're asserting that I know changes are happening. I'm telling you flat out that I don't. I hear lots of claims from you and Kindred that procedures are being put in place so this doesn't happen again.

I seem to recall this being mentioned after 2.0.7, but funnily enough that didn't happen either.

The fact that 2.0.8 prompted change is a thing. It's not a good thing because it shouldn't have happened beforehand. I specifically said in the run-up to both 2.0.7 and 2.0.8 that more testing should be done because I wasn't sure of the code quality. I was flat out asking the team to do more testing. And surprise...

So you have heard it; and when you hear it: you're aware. Hence: you do know. You just choose not to believe them, that's a whole other matter.
But having heard the claims, you can do two things:
1.) Say alright, and wait for a release that should provide proof that either tells you nothing changed or that what we're saying is actually correct,
2.) You can continue repeating the same thing over and over again, add more insults to posts (because alleging destroying the product is quite the insult imo); and then upon a release... See proof that either tells you nothing changed or that what we're saying is actually correct. ;)
(Or 3.) See point 1, and add to it that you actually try to motivate the team after pointing out a problem, rather than demotivate.)

Both options will have eventually lead to the same result. You need patience to see which outcome it's gonna be, but the choice you do have is the approach you take towards the team whilst waiting to see what happens.
To me, option 1 is the best. And most useful, as option 2 isn't really productive and can work adversely.

From what I seem to gather from your posts, you'd opt for option 2 though because you don't seem to have any faith at all in the team and don't believe anything me or Kindred has said on the matter you keep referring to. Guess saying nothing at all would have had the same effect. :X
So; fine, you can do that... We won't force you to believe us, just slightly sad you won't even give it a chance and see what happens next with a 2.0.9 release.

I do have faith in the team. A lot of faith. Call me crazy if you must. ;)
I see them working hard every day and do their very best. Volunteers that sometimes probably spend more time working on SMF than their regular life when there's something that really needs a fix quick to help our users. That's passion, that's care, that's awesome.
Apparently you don't think that's enough at all, and therefore (imho mistakenly) rationalize for yourself that they apparently deserve to have constant accusations thrown at them and that there is this need for repeating insulting/sometimes even humiliating posts...
If you want to repeat something, there is still no need to make insults. You say that it is, I call BS.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness and actual use of that one, as you seem to be under the impression that making insults and false accusations (eg: you have no care for SMF at all, etc.) is the best road to walk; and I'm under the impression that the opposite is true.


Quote
No, it's absolutely necessary. Anything less is ignored.

BS... And that's the best thing I can come up with to return on that one.
You're not the only one that makes a report when something is found or when room for improvement is seen you know...
They're not ignored, just as much as you're not ignored. We take constant community feedback, and the people making a nice post are taken just as seriously as the ones making harsh/demanding/insulting posts. And the latter group does not get priority over the first one, or vice versa.
I'm not sure where you got that assumption from, I really don't. Before you were making posts like that, you were taken serious as well. Perhaps more serious...

Have you ever considered that constantly insulting people may actually result in being ignored eventually as there's only so much sh- people can, or want to, take while investing a lot of their personal free time in to a product and its associated community? Think about it.

But... Just like you seem to think it's useless to say anything at all, I'm starting to get the impression it's impossible (and therefore useless) to try and show you how the behavior you're conducting in can in fact work completely adversely to what you claim it should be resulting in...
There is absolutely no need for the insults. None at all. No point nor purpose. All it will eventually accomplish is making people so annoyed with the constant false accusations that they might decide to put you ignore... And that would suck, as you do make valid points from time to time. You just bring them in a wrong way, imho.
(And you haven't always done that... Heck, you even brought it in quite the reasonable way once a few weeks ago. I'd say: keep that approach up... :))

I mean, just to give an example:
"You have absolutely no care for SMF. Worthless. You dont test enough, you're SMF's biggest enemy!!" (on constant repeat, over and over and over. En publique.)
VS: "You made a mistake. You should care more for running tests on SMF, so for the love of god: do more testing!!" (Perhaps repeated once or twice as a reminder)

Do you see the world of difference there?
Two things that say the same thing in essence ("do more testing!"), only the first one is phrased in a downright mean/degenerating way and implies there is no care at all and that the person is doing everything wrong, is worthless, whatever.
Whilst the second one is not nice per se: it's not sugar coated at all and is a firm statement, but it's much more constructive and doesn't claim the person is worthless or has no care at all: it simply states one should have *more* care. There is a major difference between having no care at all, or that there should be given more care to something...
Oh and the renewed lesson on testing... Conclusions have been drawn from it, things were changed in procedure. So your remark "lesson is not learned" isn't true. :)


Spare the rod, spoil the child; that's what you seem to have taken far too serious. ;)
Which incidentally reminds me of a bible quote that always makes me laugh my ass off about how ridiculous it is (I have that a lot constantly with the bible, though.)... King James Verses: Proverbs 23:13 and 23:14:
Quote
13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Luckily, despite many people still believing many aspects of that book: torture like that is no longer applied, at least: not in most christian families.
There is a good reason for that. Now we're not dealing with children here, but it does feel a bit similar to the situation here: you feel that "beating the team with the rod" is apparently more productive than trying to point something out and then see.

You'll say "But I have tried that!".
Well... I always learned adding insult to injury is a bad thing. Hardly ever a good thing.
So if it's not working; perhaps the approach was already flawed to begin with. Or it should've been attempted again.
But as you're complaining now that problems are still not being looked at according to you: your new approach doesn't exactly seem to deliver good fruits then either, eh? :)

There is only so much lashing a person can cope with before the wielder is being ran away from to prevent more lashing...
You seem to focus on the negative few things that have occured, and then fail to recognize all the good things the team are doing and applaude them for it; or even applaude them for their hard work in trying to fix, or having fixed, an issue you made the team aware of.
I found this quote mildly appropriate when slightly altered to the situation:
Quote
Norrington: One good deed is not enough to redeem a man of a lifetime of wickedness.
Jack Sparrow: Though it seems enough to condemn him.
Norrington: Indeed.
~
Quote
Norrington: Many good deeds are not enough to redeem a man of a few mistakes.
Jack Sparrow: Though one mistake seems enough to condemn him.
Norrington: Indeed.


Quote
I did. Multiple times. Except the lessons are still not being learned.

False. Already explained a few times why, by now.


Quote
So stop vomiting sunshine already.

If you consider my post sunshine, then I still wouldn't go to the beach with you if you were to claim it's a sunny day; as i'll probably freeze my ****** off. ;)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_REkgXByDyuU/TR6MNW4Jd4I/AAAAAAAAKxM/IKhOIKDQ_os/s1600/newyears.jpg Hehe :P)

Having faith in the team, in the many volunteers that run the show here and keep us going, that invest so much time and me finding that praise worthy; whilst still recognizing past problems... That's vomiting sunshine?

That's not vomiting sunshine, it's stating reality.
... But you don't believe that reality exists. ;)
We make our own reality, that's just it.



I hope you'll take another approach. If you're convinced your approach is working better: alright, guess you should do what you feel is best...
I vehemently disagree with the current approach though. But oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion; you just as much as me.
So we can either work together in constructive manner, or agree to disagree and carry on over the seperate ways. Only time will tell what worked.
((U + C + I)x(10 − S)) / 20xAx1 / (1 − sin(F / 10))
President/CEO of Simple Machines - Server Manager
Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

Steve

I don't know about the other 'average' users but it doesn't sit well with me to see such public bickering going on.  :(
DO NOT pm me for support!

LiroyvH

We have pretty much always been quite to very open about many aspects and have taken the time to respond to anyone, whether we agree or not; and sometime even whether they deserve it/are entitled to it or not.
Sometimes it has a negative undertone, sometimes positive.

As the rule of the internet is that if something works, hardly anyone to nobody thanks you; but when it fails once or twice; everybody is instantly all over you: you may see more negative than positive. :P
((U + C + I)x(10 − S)) / 20xAx1 / (1 − sin(F / 10))
President/CEO of Simple Machines - Server Manager
Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

Arantor

Oh god.

I will simply point out that all the testing stuff I mentioned, repeatedly, in private first as requests, then as accusations because requests for your team to treat your own code better failed, given how I'm *still* seeing untested commits in your public repo.

Since that wasn't working, what I am supposed to do?

I'd already been in the pariah category for some time, with people ignoring what I said simply because I was the one saying it, and had to resort to ever more drastic measures to get my point across but I can see I'm wasting my time. Do as you will.

Ninja ZX-10RR

As you started the off-topic I am just surprised reading a team member saying publicly that everything is working fine while many people claim it's not. But ok, "if you say so", by the way I think I will uninstall my smf 2.0.8 and get back to 2.0.7, meantime.
The constant fight between Arantor and CoreISP well... Guys you can do that in private, you always say the same exact things, it looks like a duplicate of this topic: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=524098.0 now please don't call me a liar or say that I offended anyone because I didn't and never meant to. EVEN IF I keep blaming Pete for the same reasons explained in the other topic, too pessimist and destructive IMO.
And oh as regards to talk with the team... Not my business but AFAIK many people in there are quite angry with someone and viceversa...
Unknown? I have a bad opinion of the guy. He founded SMF so if he thinks that the team is so bad why the heck did HE put the team in that place? Also, why throwing crap on it? Destructive and pointless, again. Meh.
Hope you will find a pacific solution despite I know you will not :(
Quote from: BeastMode topic=525177.msg3720020#msg3720020
It's so powerful that on this post and even in the two PMs you sent me,you still answered my question very quickly and you're apologizing for the delay. You're the #1 support I've probably ever encountered man, so much respect for that. Thank you, and get better soon.

I'll keep this in my siggy for a while just to remind me that someone appreciated what I did while others didn't.

♥ Jess ♥

STOP EDITING MY PROFILE

Arantor

Of course it looks like a duplicate of that topic. A month on, nothing's changed, why should the topic be any different? Keep saying mostly the same things for several years, you'd be surprised how negative you get about it.

*shrug* I have better things to do than be drawn into this cycle yet again, done it too many times already.

Ninja ZX-10RR

Then don't do it, also because your behaviour didn't change, honestly. You were asked not to throw crap at the team and you did again :( you have been destructive again etc, of course you haven't been listened. And with this I hope not to add anything else because we are way off topic, also I don't want to look like your "fanboy" or even CoreISP's. I have already expressed myself in that other topic, no need to that twice. You have your points and Core has his. Period. I'm done with it (I shouldn't even have commented, honestly).
Quote from: BeastMode topic=525177.msg3720020#msg3720020
It's so powerful that on this post and even in the two PMs you sent me,you still answered my question very quickly and you're apologizing for the delay. You're the #1 support I've probably ever encountered man, so much respect for that. Thank you, and get better soon.

I'll keep this in my siggy for a while just to remind me that someone appreciated what I did while others didn't.

♥ Jess ♥

STOP EDITING MY PROFILE

Arantor

Duly noted. Opinions to be kept to oneself unless positive.

Auke

Darn, reading 'my' thread again sure gives me a gloomy mood... How about getting a bit more positive guys? :)

For instance, I think ‽ made some pretty nifty mods (of which I used one in my little forum). How about concentrating on making some more of those instead of getting depressed (with reason or not) about how other people are handling newer versions of SMF? From what I understand of it all, you and the SMF team are incompatible for the moment and your apparently significant capacities are now invested in rather dreary postings on this forum. Creating some solid mods would surely create some positive energy. 8)

Meanwhile, Kindred, CoreISP and whoelse can work on next versions of SMF since their investments in elongating this thread don't help much either I'd think. ::)

And while you guys are creating all kinds of cool stuff, I'll be trying to learn something more about building websites by either reading and trying stuff or by asking silly newbie questions. :P

Cheers! :)

Ninja ZX-10RR

Quote from: ‽ on July 22, 2014, 12:57:58 AM
Duly noted. Opinions to be kept to oneself unless positive.
It's not like this and I'm pretty sure that you know it already. There are a ton of people listening to you out there, no need for CoreISP to tell you this, I can do this myself. Stop being such pessimist and destructive, EVERY SINGLE GUY told you already! Ever thought you might have actually been that if we all told you that you have? :(

Np auke ;) everyone started with 0 posts here :D
Quote from: BeastMode topic=525177.msg3720020#msg3720020
It's so powerful that on this post and even in the two PMs you sent me,you still answered my question very quickly and you're apologizing for the delay. You're the #1 support I've probably ever encountered man, so much respect for that. Thank you, and get better soon.

I'll keep this in my siggy for a while just to remind me that someone appreciated what I did while others didn't.

♥ Jess ♥

STOP EDITING MY PROFILE

Arantor

The problem with making solid mods is that it's surprisingly low on joy. I've churned out about 70 public mods in my SMF time, and I've used the grand total of 3 of them across all the forums I've run.

The time when I could sit and make mods for other people and enjoy the process is long gone. Even my last mod wasn't especially enjoyable, because it was merely reworking what I'd already done, having frustrations of working around issues in 2.0 vs 2.1 and I'm still not going to use it meaning that all I've ended up doing is making work for myself.

Everyone assumes that making mods is cool, and it is - right up until you find yourself creating so much more work for yourself than you're ever going to see any benefit from.

The only reason I'm working on a mod right now is because I expect to make some money from it. There is a side component that it will be useful on one of the sites I still run but only because Aeva's such a mess in that situation but it's still primarily about making money, and building what I think other people will want, not necessarily what I actually want.

Oh wait. I forgot. Having negative attitudes is frowned upon here. (And before anyone even starts trying to preach about how I shouldn't be negative, let me just say you have absolutely no idea how I feel. Trust me on this.)

Steve

I've been thinking about this since my initial comment about all this bickering not sitting well with me and it's occurred to me that if my forefathers hadn't done a whole lot of bickering, my country wouldn't even be here.

I don't know where everyone else is from but in my country it's called freedom of speech and freedom of expression. One can not effect change by saying only positive things about the situation at hand. If it needs changing, then voices need to be heard as to why and how.

In short, I'm retracting my remark and backing anyone's right to voice their opinion.

It's simple enough to skip over the posts if one doesn't want to read them.
DO NOT pm me for support!

Antes

Quote from: Flavio93Zena on July 22, 2014, 12:07:14 AM
Unknown? I have a bad opinion of the guy. He founded SMF so if he thinks that the team is so bad why the heck did HE put the team in that place? Also, why throwing crap on it? Destructive and pointless, again. Meh.
Hope you will find a pacific solution despite I know you will not :(

Only if you understand what he meant, if you understand what is the meaning of that sentence, its clearly pointing fingers to some people around. ;)

Advertisement: