I'm back. Why the reluctance for Mobile SMF?

Started by ge master, December 22, 2014, 05:35:13 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ge master

Quote from: Kindred on December 22, 2014, 09:18:12 PM
Ge master...   After reading all of the discussion that went on after I signed off this afternoon, all I can say is that you are still just play wrong in nearly every part of your argument.

I just worked for a company that spent well over 2 million dollars designing a new site which could be easily accessed from mobile devices. They did not take their existing site and add mobile templates.  They spent 10 months and 2million dollars on a responsive designed theme. This includes their sales site, their forum support site and their blogs and media...
They wanted one solution that would scale itself to the output screen.... And yes, scaling down to a phone size did indeed remove some functionality in the concept of simplicity and clear display... But it was done responsively.

As for blogs... I run a wordpress blog or three...  I use responsive themes, not Mobile only.

Additionally, I have been a web design project manager for 15 years... I have been involved in forums for 20+ years.  I have spearheaded multi million dollar projects and design reviews involving input from hundreds of consumers. So, if you need an authority... One has just spoken.

Point taken. I'm not here to dispute your credentials, those obviously speak for themselves.

Your Wordpress business model likely differs from mine or you haven't actively looked at exclusively mobile options. Your strategy for monetizing is likely different and thus responsive makes sense. I don't think you or anyone else is going to convince me that what I'm doing now is "bad" or there is a better solution. Perhaps when mobile data speeds and usage changes, I might consider something else.

I think where some of the fracture of this discussion is based on different business models. If I'm selling a service, yes, of course the need for banner ads is different than my business model. If you sell one project and your site is about that product and service, then sure, you don't give a damn about banner ads.

Every company has a different philosophy. Every consultant has a different opinion. It's like armchair quarterbacks. We all know what's best. In terms of this discussion, my issue was/is that is seems it's all or nothing. If you're not into responsive, then look elsewhere because we don't support any other solutions. That's where the disconnect seems to me.

Arantor

QuoteAs in, are you able to give an opinion or would that be construed as being endorsing his product?

Speaking personally and not in context of being a former dev, yes I would endorse it. I have used it before and find that it does work on sites that actually target mobile. That said, not all forums need to target mobile despite any assertions to the contrary.

QuoteIt's like armchair quarterbacks. We all know what's best. In terms of this discussion, my issue was/is that is seems it's all or nothing.

I find it interesting because this has been my perception of you the entire time. Right from the off when you described a dedicated mobile layout as 'the one true' method, it was clear that in your mind, all or nothing was it.

I can see business cases for mobile-centric layouts, as identified above but they are increasingly rare. Certainly in SMF's position as a platform provider, it would be poor for us to offer a mobile-centric view.

Kindred

What the heck kind of layout are you doing where modern data speeds, even on 3G make a difference?

Seriously, if that matters, then I would say that your site is too "heavy" to begin with.

A proper design is lightweight and supports every platform that your users will be using.
Having multiple designs for multiple platforms is basically unsupportable.  I mean, are you going to have a separate theme for 1G phones? Another for 3G and 4G?  Yet another for tablets and another for desktops? What about 4k monitors? Something separate for them?

Or, do you have one design that scales itself based on the device's resolution of display? One set of templates to support, modify and tweak....
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

ge master

I think we've had some misunderstandings. Because I didn't want to blurt out the name of his product, I used "the one true". From what I've been able to garner, it's the only option available. I'm not an expert, so perhaps I'm wrong about whether there are other options for me to use.

See we do agree on something! Mobile-centric layouts are rare and yes I agree that for SMF, you can't possibly go after that. However, so long as you guys are willing to support people who are going to contribute a mobile-centric solution such as Dragooon, then all is good. All camps are happy. Yes, I do think that given what's available for non 2.1 users for mobile, that SMF itself should be endorsing his solution. If there are rules against that, then break the rules? It might help out a lot of webmasters knowing about it. I found it hard to find solid resources on it, which is more than puzzling to me.

So we do agree on something at the end of the day. I think when you look at webmasters complaining about ads not producing and dwindling business models based on Google Adsense, I think you have in fact spotted something, albeit indirectly. The fact that there aren't webmasters clamoring for a solution like myself illustrates that a lot of webmasters are still out to lunch. I was part of that group, believe me. If you want to monetize mobile traffic in the way that I do, then perhaps you would see this from a different perspective. If I can run one version without some type of other mobile solution on 2.1 SMF, then I celebrate. If it's not producing clicks, that's largely the criteria I'm going with (but user feedback takes precedent).

Sorry for being stubborn.

ge master

@Kindred, it's a matter of what monetizes. If you have a terrific responsive design that's filling your pockets with ad clicks, then terrific. If that's not your business model, then we aren't going to see things remotely the same.

You're saying faster is better. To that end, what I use is faster than anything responsive can provide. So the point is what?

Mobile data is not wifi. If we can agree on that point, then my solution is faster than anything that responsive can do.  But I think you're proving my point that trying to have cake and eat it too. I could go responsive, but it's going to be slower than my mobile solution. How is that better? If I'm being lazy or too cheap for a proper mobile solution, then point taken. If however, responsive monetized better or was easier than what I was using? I wouldn't get hung up on the speed or page loading. I would think though that your work experience in responsive might skew or create bias? If I'm faster using what I'm using, I don't get the downside to that. Uniformity? Not important in my monetization model.

But talking Wordpress is completely off topic so I'll leave it at that.

Arantor

Quoteso long as you guys are willing to support people who are going to contribute a mobile-centric solution such as Dragooon, then all is good

QuoteIf there are rules against that, then break the rules?

And again the points I made about what is the case and why this is the case were completely ignored like pretty much anything I've been saying because it doesn't fit your view of the world.

I will say it again since maybe for the third or fourth time you might possibly listen.

Dragooon is on the dev team. He chose not to add his solution to 2.1. Maybe there is a reason to this.

QuoteMobile data is not wifi. If we can agree on that point, then my solution is faster than anything that responsive can do.

Mobile data != wifi indeed, however faster? In your world, perhaps. Not in my world. The rules are a little bit different here for such things.

Quote@Kindred, it's a matter of what monetizes

For you. We cannot build a product based on one subset of the userbase; the majority of our users (= forum admins) do not significantly monetise their forums, meaning that they cannot be a *major* focus of our time. You don't build for edge cases, corner cases or minority cases first.

QuoteI would think though that your work experience in responsive might skew or create bias?

Hypocrisy continues to be alive and well, I see. It's apparently fine to disregard Kindred's opinion in favour of one direction as bias but NOT fine to disregard your opinion in the opposite direction despite equivalent type of bias.

ge master

With respect, it wasn't clear from what you wrote before that Dragooon chose not to add his solution to 2.1. I don't recall you mentioning anything about his solution and 2.1. Perhaps it was implied, but it wasn't clear. Okay so now it's clear. Dragooon will not bring his solution as an option for 2.1 SMF because he believe so strongly that the responsive design does everything that he could do for a more specific niche.

I would never expect SMF to cater to my needs. However during these discussions, it seemed that thinking that anyone would want something other than responsive, "made for smartphones" solution, is simply a ghastly idea or concept. My interpretation is that because everyone is going responsive, there is no possible need for anything else. If that's the case, then yipee. I can't wait for 2.1 if that's the case. For now I will plead ignorance on what 2.1 and responsive provides. I'm a fan of SMF and Dragooon so perhaps I can breathe a sigh of relief based on my new enlightenment.

Biased? I'm not saying my business model applies to everyone. I'm not biased enough to suggest that everyone cares about monetizing smarphone traffic in the same way that I do. I already mention numerous examples where banner clicks aren't relevant in which case, a specific solution isn't necessary. If more webmasters woke up to reality, then perhaps I wouldn't be a single voice. I'm suggesting that Kindred see responsive as being the "be all end all" for all devices, all situations. If I say that there is a faster solution for mobile phones, it appears it's a non starter with Kindred and is a ghastly suggestion. If I point out something that runs faster or better for mobile devices, somebody might inquire about what it is. Of course asking would require a change in bias or belief.

So based on the conversation, Dragooon has the only mobile device solution for SMF versions lower than 2.1? If that's the case, let's lend him a helping hand on expanding his user base. Calling all webmasters! Make your SMF forums more mobile friendly! I'll work on the delivery of the message. If that's all there is right now, then let's collectively at least praise him by drumming up awareness. I think that's the key here. Lack of awareness. Might not matter with 2.1 around the corner, but I'm assuming there is still a significant < 2.1 SMF userbase. Thanks Dragooon! (I would love to hear his feelings on this btw)

Arantor

QuoteWith respect, it wasn't clear from what you wrote before that Dragooon chose not to add his solution to 2.1

With respect you can't read. Let me quote myself from every time this thread I have brought it up.

Quote from: Arantor on December 22, 2014, 05:43:48 PM
2. The guy who made the system you're referring to is in fact part of the SMF dev team and has even been working on the responsive setup.

Quote from: Arantor on December 22, 2014, 07:51:40 PM
The guy who made the mobile theme is part of the SMF dev team these days and has worked on the responsive theme.

Quote from: Arantor on December 22, 2014, 08:29:16 PM
QuoteSo really, this comes down to SMF not being able to endorse this guys works?

Since you appear to have fixated on this one point to the matter of irrelevancy of any real points, I will answer this for you.

1. Dragooon made the mobile theme.
2. Dragooon is on the SMF dev team.
3. Dragooon has chosen not to add his mobile theme to SMF core.
4. Dragooon could have added his mobile theme to SMF core if he thought it was a good idea.
5. More people than the SMF dev team were involved in the discussion about whether or not going for a responsive theme was a good idea.

Quote from: Arantor on December 22, 2014, 10:26:04 PM
Dragooon is on the dev team. He chose not to add his solution to 2.1. Maybe there is a reason to this.




Quoteit seemed that thinking that anyone would want something other than responsive, "made for smartphones" solution, is simply a ghastly idea or concept

No, it seemed like we looked at what everyone else was doing, followed by making an assessment of the technical, practical and logistical concerns and started working on something that met what we perceived SMF's needs to be, which are not the same as yours.

Hint: this is what happened. We looked around, saw what everyone was doing, discussed it like open minded people and concluded that for SMF's needs, responsive made more sense.

QuoteBiased? I'm not saying my business model applies to everyone.

Bull******, of course you are trying to say that. Phrases like 'one true way' imply you think anything less is inferior and you have repeatedly tried to push your views as definitive when they may well apply in your world view but not in ours based on our experience.

QuoteI'm suggesting that Kindred see responsive as being the "be all end all" for all devices, all situations.

Isn't that the very definition of responsive design? As in: responding to the current situation.

Sure, for specific sites with specific needs, a specific design may be the best tool for the job. In case you hadn't noticed, SMF is not a specific product for specific sites with specific needs; it is a general purpose tool in a class of tools we know as forums. Having something that tries to do a decent job of covering all the bases is what SMF should be doing. Not having a specific front-end that caters to a specific use case which is what you are advocating and have been this whole time.

ge master

@Arantor, this is the quote:

Quote3. Dragooon has chosen not to add his mobile theme to SMF core.
4. Dragooon could have added his mobile theme to SMF core if he thought it was a good idea.

In your mind you're talking about the upcoming 2.1 version. How am I to assume you're not talking about the existing non-beta version of SMF like 2.0.9? You're assuming I know what you're referring to, which I did not know. Besides that, I would rather here from Dragooon himself about his plans about his solution moving forward.

You still didn't answer my question about what options there are for webmasters using SMF < 2.1 (beta) that require something to address mobile phone users. You're ignoring the question perhaps, I have no idea. It might speak to what I'm bringing up in the first place. Mobile and SMF are distant cousins. The lack of content when in comes to trying to find solutions while searching Google, speaks to the lack of something. I mean as a courtesy to existing SMF webmasters you should be marketing the solution on his behalf. If there were competing solutions, then the vale of silence might be valid. Can't endorse sure. But when something is counter productive to the community? If it's great, then it should be front and center. It's 2015 practically. A couple years ago might have been an astute time to market it as a solution. Grow the SMF user base how? Holding back on a mobile solution might actually create more interest in SMF.

You're obviously very militant over this. If you're embedded in a project, a view from the outside should be encouraged. Most times though, opposing views or alternate thinking is treated as spite. Shunned as it were.

Further speaking to my point, we're into page 3 and nobody have even muttered the name of Dragooons solution. Again, doesn't that speak to the mentality here?

live627

Quote
So based on the conversation, Dragooon has the only mobile device solution for SMF versions lower than 2.1?
SMF4iPhone is the only other one I know of.

ge master

Quote from: live627 on December 22, 2014, 11:30:14 PMSMF4iPhone is the only other one I know of.

That's welcome information! I'm glad you aren't reluctant to actually use the brand name here. Page 3 and that's the first actual mention of a solution for people wanting a mobile option for their SMF forum installations. Arantor is so quick to use the quote feature that he hasn't answered a very basic and important question. Speaking to SMF4iPhone, isn't that SMF4Mobile in essence?

The thread is why the reluctance for mobile SMF. A case in point is this discussion. I'm asking for what solutions, aside from Dragooons, that I, or other SMF users can use. Rather than get assistance on making my forum better, it's all about design rage and responsive design and a beta forum that is how long from release?

Arantor

QuoteHow am I to assume you're not talking about the existing non-beta version of SMF like 2.0.9

Because 2.0.x is stable and does not receive feature changes? Just like the policy has been the last 3 years, and continues to have been the policy for the last 8 years for SMF 1.1.x? One does not change feature lists on stable versions.

QuoteIf you're embedded in a project, a view from the outside should be encouraged. Most times though, opposing views or alternate thinking is treated as spite. Shunned as it were.

No, I'm just incredibly resentful of people who turn up, act like they know everything and refuse to listen to opposing viewpoints. And I DESPISE hypocrisy. In other words, everything you are levelling at us as our faults are behaviours you are demonstrating admirably well.

Here's a further hint for you: I was the one who led the campaign for '2.1 should have something decent for mobile in it'. I'm one of SMF's strongest supporters - I'm ALSO one of its fiercest critics, on a level you couldn't begin to believe. There is a reason my badge is not a team badge. And it isn't because the team didn't want me. I am only too aware of things SMF could/should/would be doing. I am only too aware of the challenges it faces going forward in the marketplace it is in. You trying to lecture me on something I know intimately is not helpful, especially with arrogance that is impressive even by my standards - and I can be an arrogant SOB at the best of times.

QuoteFurther speaking to my point, we're into page 3 and nobody have even muttered the name of Dragooons solution. Again, doesn't that speak to the mentality here?

Not really, no, on the basis that anyone who actually bothered to care enough to participate already knows anyway. It's not some veiled secret that you're purporting to uncover; it's just that we don't need to be beaten over the head again and again and again with your perception of our failings.

QuoteArantor is so quick to use the quote feature that he hasn't answered a very basic and important question.

Why should I when you don't do me the courtesy of actually reading what I'm saying?

QuoteRather than get assistance on making my forum better, it's all about design rage and responsive design and a beta forum that is how long from release?

Because I have a serious reluctance to helping people who already think they know it all, stride in carrying the arrogance of someone who won't listen to people who do actually know better, and then refuse to actually listen. I can't speak for anyone else here, though.

You came here already with an answer, what more help would you like? Having an answer before you ask the question is a sure-fire way to get disappointed, too.

ge master

@Arantor, you are certainly one of a kind. Wow. Talk about spitting in a customers face. You obviously are very sensitive. You define bully, based on what I've read here.

You are very quick to judge me aren't you? Few posts in and you start in on it. Note, I wasn't asking for help. If Google can't find SMF mobile solutions, then I though somebody with 64K posts might be able to mention something, if there were such an option.

I won't judge a community based on one person. I think in this case, that's a good thing. I guess you saw this as a bullying opportunity? Seems that way to me. 64K vs. 40? Just cause for cross talk and bullying? Who am I to come here and speak to SMF mobile?

This wasn't supposed to be a discussion about a future release of SMF that's currently beta. It's about today.

I'm not sure if this would be considered a badge of honor, but you seem to be about the most foul person I've come across in any forum community. I'm not saying there aren't worse, self righteous individuals, but in my years, you take it.

Arantor

I'm quick to judge based on what I see, yes, because all I see is what you post - I have nothing else to go on. Nor do I care whether you have 40 or 40,000 posts. I listen to what you say and go on that basis.

It certainly looked like you were after help from your posts.

Will a search engine fine this post? Sure. Here's the thing: this is just my opinion, just as yours is your opinion. I already pointed out I am not a team member and do not represent SMF in any official capacity; my having the SMF Friend badge is not even my choice, I requested it be removed in the past in recognition of the fact that I much prefer having the freedom of speech to be both praising and critical when both are due - and if you think I'm critical here, you have no idea how critical I am elsewhere. I really am SMF's fiercest critic and you have seen nothing of how critical I am in that regard.

Bullying? Interesting choice of words coming from someone who makes all kinds of observations about us and doesn't respond when it is pointed out they are doing the exact same things (even when we're not). I have listened to what you say, given it fair consideration. I disagree with your stance, most of what you assert, and have repeatedly lost patience when you clearly didn't read what I was saying, but at no point did I intend to bully you. I'm sorry you feel that is the outcome of this conversation - but just consider that it is a two way street and I have felt more than a little slighted by your behaviour in this matter. Perhaps I just respond in kind to how I am treated, and do so on a more visible scale than most. I tend to be disrespectful to people who ask for my opinion then proceed to beat me over the head with why they think I'm wrong because that's actually pretty disrespectful too.

For what it's worth, I don't care whther you have 40 posts or 40,000. I don't care who you are because I don't *know* who you are. All I see is a pseudonym and some comments that I disagree with, where half the time I've been wanting to smack you over the head in all honesty because you keep reiterating the same points over and over as though magically you'll convince me (and as though nothing I've said had any merit whatsoever), while I've tried to give you more and more information to back up my point of view - you know, like happens in debates.

Consider, then, that from my perspective maybe you're being the bully just a little?

Jade Elizabeth

Not to be obnoxious or redundant but SMF does have wap, wap2 and imode for those who seriously cannot handle web browsing. Sometimes I use them for quick access and posting [because my design is fixed and not responsive so it's hard to browse]. I prefer the last two.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?wap
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?wap2
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?imode


As for the topic for discussion [which I skimmed]... Ge Master I'm studying this subject/issue right now; I've just finished a diploma 2 weeks ago on the subject of website development which had a large portion dedicated to mobile and responsive design (4 classes all year, separately). I will admit I am the first to hate on it: I hate responsive design but I also hated when things went semantic and away from tables, and I am the first person to jump up and down kicking and screaming and pulling hair out with my teeth (seriously ;)).....but unfortunately for me, and you too, Kindred is right. The best course of action, the best direction to take, is responsive design.

Now hear me out - it's easier to design everything to work with a smaller screen than it is to try to support a myriad of applications (or even one application) which are always changing and could possibly be insecure (I use TapaTalk and it's a pain to update all the time) and if you do your own application you have to consider that you'd have to code it three times - apple, microsoft, and android all use different code (also studied that this year). If you're asking SMF to build an app like that then that's not going to happen unfortunately. The team is working their little behinds off to make this new version, and mobile browsers are getting better each day and can give an app like experience without needing an app now. If you're referring to how some websites do m.businessname.com you could still do that and have it redirect to imode for example. With a responsive design you don't need to do that - which is make two designs for your website and maintain and update them both as needed.

Anyway, if your design is optimised - speedy, light weight, minimal markup - and responsive, it's not going to be an issue for most phones and people will appreciate that they can use the website uninterrupted for each of their devices - it's not intrusive, it doesn't require effort, it responds to you and you don't need to put any effort into it. I've never installed an app to browse a website and I can't even install TapaTalk to view my own. Phones just don't give enough space for that sort of thing :).
Once proud Documentation Writer and Help Squad Leader | Check out my new adult coloring career: Color With Jade/Patreon.

ge master

@Jade Elizabeth, I appreciate being able to have a civil conversation at this point. Whew for that.

I hear what you're saying regarding responsive design and where things are headed. I don't fault the SMF team for going that direction because doing otherwise would be bizarre. I have no issue with responsive, but if somebody is going to tell me that it's superior to what I'm using in a Wordpress environment vs. what I'm currently using for my mobile users? I mock that. People have different business models and people have different target markets and goals. There is something better for what I do and it ISN'T a responsive solution. That's not wrong and it's not me suggesting that responsive isn't dandy for you or anyone else.

The bigger picture though?

One fact remains, SMF currently is NOT responsive. Does that matter to the community? Apparently not because the royal "we" already know all about Dragooons solution. I guess vision wise, SMF isn't about expanding the user base. People look every day for a forum and if lack of mobile is a deal breaker, shouldn't the ignorant fools like me be easily directed to a pretty nifty solution via Dragooon? As in being associated with a current available solution might actually bring people to the SMF community. But again, as said, I know nothing. I'm an idiot with 40 posts. I don't listen. Blah blah.

So I'm wondering for yourself, I'm assuming your running 2.0.9? If that's the case, how are you dealing with mobile and SMF? Obviously things aren't responsive currently, so what are the actual solutions right now?

I find it amusing, from other posts in this thread, that because the "community" knows about Dragooon's solution, that everyone else doesn't matter. As in, person A is looking for a forum right now, goes into Google to see what forums can handle mobile. Apparently, according to members here, who give a $h_t about person A who might actually look at SMF as a possibility. Rather, it's all about what "we" know already and who really cares about newbies or potential forum installers. Afterall, "we" know about it and that's good enough! Oh geez, the user base is shrinking. I can't imagine why (insert sarcasm).

So we can talk about the next gen forum, terrific. It's not stable. Release date unknown. It's going to be responsive and will serve all mobile users. Good and good. I'm going to be happy when it comes, however it doesn't help me at all today as I'm trying to build and keep people in my forum and community.




ge master

@Arantor, I just posted thoughts about somebody who says something like, "we all know about it so who cares anyways". That's a very poor outlook, especially when somebody spent time in creating a solution for the SMF community. It's premium, so what.

You've made all kinds of accusations towards myself. Too many things too mention, even though this is a 3 page thread. If somebody is attacking and trying to belittle opinions because "everyone knows this" (like I'm supposed to assume that you were talking about 2.1 SMF with Dragooon not including his solution in that build), then that's bullying. Shoving a newer forum member around and jumping in and quoting from somebody else (you defended Kindred rather than letting him respond)? Hardly appropriate IF you actually cared about good spirits and a friendly community. I know where I'm at and who I am. You refuse to offer up other possible solutions for mobile SMF 2.0.9 because you think I have some bad attitude? Really.

Like I said, I've been around a great number of forum communities over the years and I've had spirited debates. I don't feel that anyone has acted in the manner that you have. That really says something, believe me. I just know for me, if I'm so vested in a community, the last thing I'm going to do is spit in the newcomers face. It might not have impact today or tomorrow, but when the customers slowly stop coming back to the restaurant, that owner suddenly might realize how their behavior was a detriment. Detrimental isn't a recipe for success, but the growth of the SMF community appears to be the furthest thing from your priority.

BTW, I'm happy to discuss mobile SMF here.

Arantor

And you taking my comments out of context, putting words in my mouth etc. is obviously highly conducive to good spirits and a friendly community?

I wasn't talking about 'the community' or what the community does or does not know. I was referring to 'of the people who bothered to contribute to this debate', we happy few that discussed the matter in this topic, everyone here - yourself included - already knew of Dragooon's work. The fact you knew about it indicated a certain familiarity with matters and it seemed like it was unnecessary to actually come out and state it.

If people ask - outside of a philosophical debate like this one is - I have recommended it in the past. I will no doubt do so again. Just as I have steered people towards things that will do the job they need.

Interestingly enough, this community - and all the other communities around the forum software world - are not especially great examples of communities, precisely because of their nature. By their nature, people turn up, ask for help, receive, leave. It is a distinct minority of those people that builds an actual community in such places.

Yes, I assumed a general familiarity with SMF as a whole based on what you'd posted - as in, familiarity with the fact that 2.0 does not have a modern mobile theme and that 2.1, since 2.1 is publicly available in beta, does have responsive. The fact I reiterated several times that Dragooon was working on 2.1 might have been a giveaway, at least I thought it was clear having said it 4 times that he was working on 2.1 and in my mind it seemed obvious that if the person responsible for such a theme was now on the core team, that he would be able to add it if he so desired.

Just because I say something in one specific context does not mean it applies in all contexts. In the context of this debate, you knew about Dragooon's theme, no need to rehash it over and over. In other conversations where it is clear that the same level of familiarity is not apparent, I won't make the assumption.

The funny part is that, from my perspective, I assumed it was all clear already - and essentially it sounds like I gave you too much credit. Hardly the act of a bully to overestimate their prey like that. Having been to sleep, re-read the thread I can see exactly where my attitude changed - after the second or third time you ignored what I said in favour of your own opinions, even while flat out saying you were listening when you clearly weren't.

You talk about good spirits and a friendly community - repeatedly not listening to what's being said and making accusations of bullying is hardly conducive to these. As I said also, I don't care whether you're a newcomer - I didn't even look at your post count, because it shouldn't matter. Democracy and all that - I look at what's being said, not who said it. I would react the same way if Kindred said the things you were saying in the way you were saying them. Though that wouldn't happen because Kindred wouldn't say those things - he doesn't blatantly take my comments out of context to try to score points off me out of some apparent sense of being offended when he isn't agreed with, and while he might strongly disagree with what I'm saying, he at least listens to what I say rather than trying to assert his view is correct for extended periods of time.

You are right, to a point: I'm not that interested in building the SMF *community* because this place isn't really going to *be* a community, because it's not really *supposed* to be one. The vast bulk of users turn up, get help, leave. Amongst the small group that does come back in a sense of community, you'll notice I am significantly nicer - mostly because I'm not being confronted with people who repeatedly get nasty in their attitude. It's like how, for example, in the 'There might be cake' thread, there's 35 pages, of which at least a dozen pages are people horsing around and having a laugh - me included. It's all about the context; here I get crappy because I'm getting so frustrated trying to talk with someone who refuses to listen to any viewpoint that doesn't fundamentally agree with his own. Elsewhere I'm much nicer.

Again: I'm going off what you say and how you conduct yourself. Right from the off it sounded and felt like you wanted to have a discussion about why you were right and SMF was wrong - and even when people repeatedly disagreed with you and brought up the results of our experience, you didn't concede that maybe we had a point until after you were already highly offended that  we (and I in particular) had *dared* to challenge your point of view.

Might as well invoke Godwin's Law at this point and just declare that I am the root of all evil and the cause of SMF's decline and that I'm killing the software I love (I'm not but you seem so intent on pushing the point that I am). Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last time and it's no more true now than it was 5 years ago when I stayed up all night trying to convince the project leaders not to just disband it at the time.

You know what's really funny? I spent half an hour trying to work out if this was a sign I should leave and take all my technical knowledge with me - because attitude aside, I *am* a serious technically competent force, just like only last night I provided a patch that fixes a sort of vulnerability in SMF 2.0.9 and SMF would hurt - though it would get through it after a while - if I disappeared.


Your last point: discussing SMF mobile. What's to discuss anyway? SMF 2.0.x has Dragooon's theme and a few others that *might* work acceptably on mobile but primarily it's just Dragooon's theme. SMF 2.1 is responsive out of the box. Nothing more to see here, especially as nothing I say will meet your approval anyway and it was clear right back on page 1 that you didn't want *discussion*, you wanted consensus that you are right.

I would suggest the moderators lock this, it's never going to go anywhere good.

Kindred

<click>


realistically, this should have been locked before the end of page 1....

tl:dr for the thread....
ge master thinks we're all a bunch of idiots and he has all the answers (which is specifically, mobile-only design)
the rest of us, in this thread, have repeatedly disproved his theories and been called names because of it.



asked - answered - beaten into the ground - resurrected - and beaten down again and again and again.

Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Advertisement: