I'm back. Why the reluctance for Mobile SMF?

Started by ge master, December 22, 2014, 05:35:13 PM

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Biology Forums

I've found that responsive requires mastery in knowing your CSS.

Arantor

Quote from: Shuban on December 22, 2014, 07:36:54 PM
I've found that responsive requires mastery in knowing your CSS.

So does building a mobile layout, so does building a decent conventional layout. Your point?

Biology Forums

Not as much. In responsive, conditions must be set in nearly all elements.

Arantor

You would have the same effort in doing a mobile layout - it's just doing the conditions by way of putting them in a separate file rather than putting them in the main CSS file.

Antes

Quote from: Shuban on December 22, 2014, 07:38:49 PM
Not as much. In responsive, conditions must be set in nearly all elements.

Yes kinda but I rather not output it like a very big job, once you create more generic templates/classes (like what we did in Admin Panel), you don't have to do lots of stuff to show things in good way. You define one or two things and system takes care of rest.

Arantor

OK, so here's the $64,000 question: if a user goes to a forum on their phone and gets a decent experience, do you REALLY think they care about *how* it works as long as it works?

Biology Forums

I believe it will also be problematic for future mod authors, some of which are not good with CSS and styling at all, or don't have an eye for such things. Their mods will end up breaking the natural flow of the theme.

Biology Forums

Quote from: Arantor on December 22, 2014, 07:42:33 PM
OK, so here's the $64,000 question: if a user goes to a forum on their phone and gets a decent experience, do you REALLY think they care about *how* it works as long as it works?

Nope, but I'm looking at this in different angles. User experience won't be compromised if they are using a stock SMF.

ge master

I'm not suggesting that responsive doesn't work well in phablets. I'm just suggesting that if end user sees site version A or B, which one is a better user experience?

I can understand the possible irritation of being involved with a project and having somebody like me come in and make a few counter points. It's a discussion point, or at least that is what I was attempting to do. Even with the advocacy for responsive, isn't it prudent to also push the other mobile solutions so that webmaster who don't share your views, might actually choose SMF?

Regarding phablets, it's debatable for me. I can't speak from personal experience on that. Holding horizontal? Perhaps full site/responsive is going to win out in the minds of the end user.

Would I be safe to make this quick assumption?

The reason for the lack of endorsement on the mobile solution that I speak of, is simply a matter of philosophy? I'm sure nobody can speak on behalf of SMF, but there really seems like a line drawn in the sand. To counter my point about the disassociation with SMF and mobile as being nonsense? The links and current sources are pretty much non existent on the web. If I have a stake in SMF, that would be troubling.

I find it somewhat amusing to suggest that the forums using a non-responsive solution are somehow outdated and someday will come to their senses. Really?

A note to the author of the solution, I will advocate as much as possible on your behalf. Job well done. The unfortunate part is that webmaster as a slow to respond group. I was in there, but as of late, I broke out of that mold.


ARG01

Just getting this out there. As long as desktops and laptops are being mass produced, there is really no reason to focus mainly on mobile. Millions around the world are constantly 4 to 5 years behind the most recent technology, a vast majority working from 10 year or older computers and many of them with no mobile devise.
Personally, I go out of my way to avoid using my mobile devices for internet use and do so only when forced to.  I see no reason for any software to specifically focus on mobile adaptation at this time.
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Arantor

Well... on the mod author front, mod authors generally didn't give a **** about WAP/WAP2/imode, so if a dedicated mobile solution were in place, it wouldn't get any mod love anyway.

As for responsive... it really isn't like there aren't people around who can help. There are also plenty of mod authors whose styling on 2.0 mods is bad enough because they've ported 1.x code to 2.0 and it looks less than pretty (like how come SMF Gallery Pro doesn't have any proper Curve styling)

QuoteNope, but I'm looking at this in different angles. User experience won't be compromised if they are using a stock SMF.

UX is not compromised in either direction for stock SMF, sure. But how many sites use stock SMF?

QuoteI can understand the possible irritation of being involved with a project and having somebody like me come in and make a few counter points.

No, that part is fine. Not listening to rebuttals IS FAR MORE IRRITATING.

QuoteWould I be safe to make this quick assumption?

Given how many other assumptions you've made that are wrong, why are you asking about this one which is the least insane yet?

QuoteThe reason for the lack of endorsement on the mobile solution that I speak of, is simply a matter of philosophy?

FFS. The answer is NO.

QuoteI'm sure nobody can speak on behalf of SMF, but there really seems like a line drawn in the sand

Other than the project manager, current devs, former devs, members of the marketing team? What higher authority would you like to hear from?

The guy who made the mobile theme is part of the SMF dev team these days and has worked on the responsive theme.

QuoteI find it somewhat amusing to suggest that the forums using a non-responsive solution are somehow outdated and someday will come to their senses. Really?

XenForo, IPB, Discourse - companies that sell their forum software - disagree with you.

QuoteThe unfortunate part is that webmaster as a slow to respond group. I was in there, but as of late, I broke out of that mold.

No, you're still there.

ge master

I really do appreciate the discussion and views.

So in part of listening, I'm to believe that the big forums out there are using their "solution" more as a matter of troubleshooting/updating rather than it being a better end user experience? I'm just trying to clarify the point.

I have a pretty basic view of what mobile is. It isn't about tablets first off. If people are using a 4 to 6-inch phone to view a forum, reading is paramount. Easy clicking buttons. Simple paths to get to where you want to get to. If I take any site I have currently, and think that scaling it will accommodate users via responsive? Again, it comes down to a debate which is along the lines of debating politics. People aren't going to change their views based on some random guys (take me for example) view about how or why responsive isn't the be all end all.

So I guess it's a matter of preference. I want users to first, have the best, easiest navigation and reading experience possible. I think of it this way. I can shrink down a desktop site so that it fits better on a smaller screen. However, the fact that it's not designed for a small screen in the first place, is the critical point. It will be better for sure, but it's not designed with one purpose.

If anything I appreciate the discussion because it's solidified my reason for choosing which experience my users will get.

Okay to the point about SMF cannot endorse any product? I'm not educated in such matters. I would be finding any way possible to make it happen. Even if 2.1 is the best ever mobile solution, you likely still want those webmaster using the old SMF installations to stick around? As webmasters wake up to mobile, people will be required to make a decision. I'm just saying that a vast majority of webmasters are wondering where the money went without cluing into their own mobile users needs.

So really, this comes down to SMF not being able to endorse this guys works?

ge master

Sorry, just to clarify, for anyone using SMF that isn't 2.1, what solutions exist in addressing mobile users coming to the forum?

live627

Bye bye. I must  bow out now before blurting out ad hominess.

Arantor

QuoteSo really, this comes down to SMF not being able to endorse this guys works?

Since you appear to have fixated on this one point to the matter of irrelevancy of any real points, I will answer this for you.

1. Dragooon made the mobile theme.
2. Dragooon is on the SMF dev team.
3. Dragooon has chosen not to add his mobile theme to SMF core.
4. Dragooon could have added his mobile theme to SMF core if he thought it was a good idea.
5. More people than the SMF dev team were involved in the discussion about whether or not going for a responsive theme was a good idea.

At this point I cannot continue this discussion because you are clearly unable and unwilling to listen to what is being said and I'm sick and tired of trying to rebut your points when you're clearly not listening despite protestations to the contrary.

vbgamer45

I like Dragoon's mobile theme thought it was a good bridge for SMF 2.0 but in 2.1 like has been said responsive theme is the future and that is how much of the new sites are made using responsive frameworks.

For apps tapatalk works well and has a large usage base and I am sure they will update for 2.1 as well.
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ge master

@Arantor, thank you. The fellow seems brilliant to me.

So, aside from Dragoon's solution, what options are there for people such as myself running 2.0.9 who need a mobile friendly forum? Serious question, I am all ears because I'm at the point of needing some implementation.

I know you mentioned that Wordpress experience essentially doesn't relate to the world of forums. Not sure how so, but aside from that, this is how things appear to be headed.

First, releasing any theme or website building software that isn't responsive is going to be a cardinal sin. If you have a Wordpress framework/theme, damn rights moving forward that it needs responsive out of the box. However, for those webmasters who feel differently, there are premium mobile solutions that are "specifically" built for mobile. Of course it's up to the discretion of the webmaster whether investing in a specifically designed solution for Wordpress is a good investment. For me, Wordpress somewhat breaks with responsive because of what happens to widgets. And where does most monetization happen? With widgest areas. This relates to SMF because yes, 2.1 will be responsive and that's pretty much mandatory. However for those webmasters such as myself who believe that a specific design for mobile screens is the way to go, I sure hope that Dragoon brings something along to 2.1 SMF. I could use free responsive for Wordpress and have in the past. There is a reason for not using now. That's for me, based on my experience. I guess it really depends on whether webmasters such as myself matter or not and whether there will be any specifically tailored solution for SMF moving forward.

One thing I know for sure when it comes to technology. Everyone can try and predict user behavior, but it's virtually impossible. To suggest that forum users want or will want responsive vs. a specific mobile solution is highly debatable. What I would say is this. Those folks you consulted, how would they know? As in, where are all the responsive forums to draw conclusions from? I see. Build it and they will come? I don't see how anyone can claim something is better than something else when there is no real big sites that I'm visiting that are using responsive. It's only when you change from those mobile versions to responsive that you will have the true answer. That comes in the form of widespread complaining and mass exodus. From an office somewhere making predictions? Meh.

I understand that as a base release, responsive is mandatory, but to suggest that a specific mobile solution isn't needed is highly presumptuous in my estimation. You would likely not be retaining people like myself, but I'm not drawing judgement on something I haven't seen.

Arantor

QuoteI know you mentioned that Wordpress experience essentially doesn't relate to the world of forums. Not sure how so, but aside from that, this is how things appear to be headed.

I wasn't going to reply but this one looks like a sensible question that deserves a sensible answer. A rarity, I know.

So, here's the deal.

Blogs: few people can write the content, most people consume it. A small percentage might reply with comments but as a general rule that's how it breaks down for the vast majority of blogs.

Forums: everyone can create content, consumption is generally more balanced than it is with blogs.

That difference - the creation aspect - is the key reason why blogs and forums are fundamentally different. The mobile experience on blogs focuses on the content because for most users, there's nothing else to play with - sure, there's navigation to other content and maybe the ability to reply but that's about it.

But when *everyone* is a content creator on the platform, it is by necessity more complex out of the box. The result of which is that people who consume on the go are still only consuming on the go - but they still want the flexibility to contribute too. That means a crippled form of the interface in the form of a mobile-centric layout is suboptimal. An interface that provides all the functionality (perhaps presented slightly differently) is much more useful in that context.

Trying to judge how forums should operate based on how blogs operate is like trying to decide on road sizes for cars when you use a motorbike - just because both go on roads does not mean that experience of one makes you particularly informed about the other. You will notice I have refrained from commenting on how blogs work on mobile because I'm not a big blog writer or consumer; I am simply not qualified to offer anything more than vague opinions.

QuoteWhat I would say is this. Those folks you consulted, how would they know? As in, where are all the responsive forums to draw conclusions from?

From the forum platforms that have been doing this for years already like IPB which with v4 are moving to responsive? From XenForo that went straight to responsive years ago after experience with vBulletin (seeing how XenForo's developers are former vB devs)

Every XenForo installation that's even remotely up to date is responsive out of the box. Try it. xenforo.com for example. IGN's forum (a paltry 100m posts) is another.

Or BoingBoing which uses Discourse which doesn't have the holy grail you're talking about.

Next you'll be telling me that three successful companies whose FUNDAMENTAL BUSINESS is selling forum software know less about this than you do. Maybe there is a reason they are doing this as they are doing it - and people still buy more licenses.

Quotewhen there is no real big sites that I'm visiting that are using responsive

And here we reach the crux of the problem: 'no-one I know uses it therefore it is rubbish'. Might I suggest your problem is a fundamental lack of open-mindedness on your part?

Kindred

Ge master...   After reading all of the discussion that went on after I signed off this afternoon, all I can say is that you are still just play wrong in nearly every part of your argument.

I just worked for a company that spent well over 2 million dollars designing a new site which could be easily accessed from mobile devices. They did not take their existing site and add mobile templates.  They spent 10 months and 2million dollars on a responsive designed theme. This includes their sales site, their forum support site and their blogs and media...
They wanted one solution that would scale itself to the output screen.... And yes, scaling down to a phone size did indeed remove some functionality in the concept of simplicity and clear display... But it was done responsively.

As for blogs... I run a wordpress blog or three...  I use responsive themes, not Mobile only.

Additionally, I have been a web design project manager for 15 years... I have been involved in forums for 20+ years.  I have spearheaded multi million dollar projects and design reviews involving input from hundreds of consumers. So, if you need an authority... One has just spoken.
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ge master

@Arantor, thanks for your insight. You have really opened my eyes on this. Please don't take my discussion as being disrespectful to you or your teams efforts. I am an advocate for SMF. Trust me when I say I hope that 2.1 is strong for mobile devices. Having Dragooon involved in the responsive aspect is exciting to me.

I appreciate what you're saying about blog vs. forum. It has given me a lot to think about for sure.

When I spoke that I haven't seen big forums using responsive, that wasn't too say there aren't. It's just the fact that I'm unaware or haven't viewed those forums. I will look at IGN now, thanks to that information. I'm not close minded. Stubborn yes, but certainly not to the point where I'm going to use something that isn't best for my visitors.

I'm not trying to harp on this, but seriously, is Dragooon's solution about the only game in town for 2.0.9? As in, are you able to give an opinion or would that be construed as being endorsing his product? Thanks.

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