SMF developing or stagnating (was Wordpress/SMF bridge)

Started by Spr1te, January 28, 2015, 01:10:57 PM

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MrMike

Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 06:15:24 PMNonetheless I would wager they're next release continues to be stylish irrespective of poor function.

You realize you're making my point for me, don't you?

MrMike

Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 06:18:28 PMOf course it does but its a prime influence in the mix.

Ask the customers if they'd rather own a dowdy-looking car that ran, or a stylish car that didn't. Then you'll understand the importance of function over form.


Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 06:18:28 PMPeople like candy I know I do.

Would you like candy if it tasted bad? Or is the taste (the function) something you would ignore in favor of a shiny wrapper?

Spr1te

Quote from: MrMike on January 29, 2015, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 04:44:17 PMI believe Ive already elaborated on that > I don't possess the skills.

Then perhaps you should refrain from criticizing those who do. It takes no skill or cleverness to find fault.

I merely felt the need to get the point across that SMF looks outdated.

I wasn't trying to be cleaver nor did I attempt to criticise, I was merely endeavouring to provide the team with some constructive feedback.

You may know how to design a website but we do make the ultimate choice as to whether the software gets downloaded or not. On  that score I felt it necessary from a users perspective to convey my thoughts back to SMF so as to enhance future development. It has and always will be your call as to whether suggestions are taken on board. I never expected it to be this hard.

Spr1te

Quote from: MrMike on January 29, 2015, 06:22:11 PM
Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 06:15:24 PMNonetheless I would wager they're next release continues to be stylish irrespective of poor function.

You realize you're making my point for me, don't you?

Yes I'm aware where your coming from but do you hear me?

Kindred

what you don't seem to understand is that your basic premise is disagreed with.
Plain and simple.. .  I do not think that SMF looks outdated.

Could it be improved?  sure...   we are doing exactly that with the 2.1 responsive theme.
But I disagree with your contention that SMF themes look outdated or are poor looking.
I would agree that SMF FUNCTIONALITY is lagging a little behind, because of the long development cycles...  but not the layout.

And so far...   we have you arguing one side and at least three people arguing the other. By your own logic, you are incorrect, since the majority disagree with you.
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Spr1te

Quote from: MrMike on January 29, 2015, 06:26:18 PM
Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 06:18:28 PMOf course it does but its a prime influence in the mix.

Ask the customers if they'd rather own a dowdy-looking car that ran, or a stylish car that didn't. Then you'll understand the importance of function over form.

The worlds your oyster, they'd attempt to find a car that looks and feels good in that order. In real life a purchaser doesn't outlay huge sums of money on a half baked product. They're prepared to go the full hog for the right vehicle. Even Microsoft's aware of that. Give them what they want yeah. Excite them that's what its all about.


Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 06:18:28 PMPeople like candy I know I do.

Quote from: MrMikeWould you like candy if it tasted bad? Or is the taste (the function) something you would ignore in favor of a shiny wrapper?

Hahaha you people donuts, tractors. As I've been saying, they go hand in hand they're not a separate entity. One is as important as the other. Put the same candy in a smelly old rag and no one would go near it!

Spr1te

Quote from: Kindred on January 29, 2015, 06:57:19 PM
what you don't seem to understand is that your basic premise is disagreed with.
Plain and simple.. .  I do not think that SMF looks outdated.

Could it be improved?  sure...   we are doing exactly that with the 2.1 responsive theme.
But I disagree with your contention that SMF themes look outdated or are poor looking.
I would agree that SMF FUNCTIONALITY is lagging a little behind, because of the long development cycles...  but not the layout.

And so far...   we have you arguing one side and at least three people arguing the other. By your own logic, you are incorrect, since the majority disagree with you.

So you've heard what I had to say you don't think my comments are warranted and you will disregard same on the basis of number in a closed shop. Hey and your entitled to do that.

Proofs in the pudding though if your numbers don't improve come the new release, return to this post and take heed of someone else's advice. I was always brought up to listen to what has been said separate the pertinent from the other. At least that way you would have a full grasp on things not just a one sided view. 3 against 1 is not a suitable argument and you know it. I've said what I wanted to say and ill leave it @ that. Thank you all for you time.

Kindred

except that, once again, you are just plain wrong....

I (and others) have eaten brownies baked to look like dog turds...
but, because they were TASTY! we ate them...  didn't matter what it looked like - the FUNCTION (in this case, taste) was the prime component...
I have eaten candy that looked terrible...
I have eaten crickets, ants and grubs...  pretty good actually...

now... I will admit -- it's not a 1:1 comparison.
Websites DO have to look somewhat appealing.
However, you seem to have a very different concept of what constitutes appealing -- and you just keep telling us that we are all stuck in the past, have our heads in the sand and are just wrong -- when we tell you that we disagree with you.
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Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."


Arantor

QuoteI wasn't trying to be cleaver nor did I attempt to criticise, I was merely endeavouring to provide the team with some constructive feedback.

There has been nothing constructive in any of your feedback, but there has been a lot of unwarranted criticism.

MrMike

Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 07:00:11 PMAs I've been saying, they go hand in hand they're not a separate entity. One is as important as the other.

No, they're not as important as each other. I'm surprised you really believe this.

Again, would you rather have an ugly car that worked or a cool looking car that didn't start?

I'd take a plain looking forum that worked over a sleek, fancy looking one that didn't.

Craigslist is a good real-world example of this. The site looks butt ugly, but it works very well...and they're not hurting for traffic.

At the same time there are lots of pretty classifieds sites that are deader than a doornail, but ugly ol' Craigslist keeps churning away. The fact is that people are happy to trade form for function, almost without fail. (The one notable exception I'm aware of is women's shoes. lol)

Bloc

Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: MrMike on January 29, 2015, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: Spr1te on January 29, 2015, 04:44:17 PMI believe Ive already elaborated on that > I don't possess the skills.

Then perhaps you should refrain from criticizing those who do. It takes no skill or cleverness to find fault.

I merely felt the need to get the point across that SMF looks outdated.

I wasn't trying to be cleaver nor did I attempt to criticise, I was merely endeavouring to provide the team with some constructive feedback.

You may know how to design a website but we do make the ultimate choice as to whether the software gets downloaded or not. On  that score I felt it necessary from a users perspective to convey my thoughts back to SMF so as to enhance future development. It has and always will be your call as to whether suggestions are taken on board. I never expected it to be this hard.

It is indeed a letdown that SMF 2.1 looks more or less the same as it was made in 2008, a hommage to the 2.0 theme , sure, but thats a 7 years old look...

I guess the biggest obstacle is that there isn't anyone that will take a leap of faith and change it.

Arantor

You know as well as I do that that isn't the biggest obstacle.

Kindred

nope... with regards to theming... Antes has done a nice job -- and, quite honestly, I *LIKE* the layout of 2.1 (even if I don't like the colors)

However, that's the great thing about this system,,, you think you have a better idea/design -- go ahead and make it. :)
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Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

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Bloc

Theres just one or two things about that: you crave others to make it better design-wise, yet want to decide if it IS better or not. Not a general consensus among the people actually wanting to use SMF, not even a poll over possible designs lol. Github? not seen by anyone, no room for views from non-coders(or designers generally for that matter) and certainly not admins/users.

Hardly something to cheer about, and certainly not an invite for any forward-thinking in design. Plus you have aquired a taste of locking topics that DO discuss this and related matters.


Kindred

not me....  I rarely lock topics.

Although I did split this one from the original wordpress/smf bridge topic - since it has gone way outside of THAT discussion... lol
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Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Suki

Quote from: Bloccy on January 30, 2015, 08:38:41 PM
Not a general consensus among the people actually wanting to use SMF, not even a poll over possible designs lol.


Do you honestly want to run a poll among SMF users to decide how SMF is gonna look?  is this for real?

Just take this whole discussion, 3 or 4 people cannot be in agreement as to what a "good design" is or means... now imagine that multiplied by 100k or so.  Thats an invitation for disaster... and for even a slower dev process...  design by committee anyone?  even us devs, (less than 5 people) do not always agree with design decisions...  honestly, this lets run a poll for everyone to decide is a really, really bad idea.

I thought this was just common sense but it seems I need to actually type it out: You can't please everyone.

A default theme's primary function is to be there for other themes as a tool, a guide, something you can use if you want. Something that will appear IF nothing else is there. Do note the IF part.

default theme != defacto theme.

A default theme by nature WILL be dull, its the most sane thing anyone can do regarding a default theme used by third party people.

Quote
Github? not seen by anyone, no room for views from non-coders(or designers generally for that matter) and certainly not admins/users.

I already addressed your concerns about github elsewhere and it pains me to see that you cannot even attempt to give it a try. Here you are, preaching about moving forward and be different and all that crap and yet you are the first one who don't want to give something different a try, oh the irony!

Quote
Theres just one or two things about that: you crave others to make it better design-wise, yet want to decide if it IS better or not

There is something else I want to clarify, when you give an opinion, you are inviting others to discuss said opinion, to be in agreement or not.

The same happens with code, if you propose something then be prepare to expect opinions about it, it seems you want to contribute only and only if no one else says anything about your work and everything you add needs to bypass everything and be included immediately, thats insane!  not even the lead dev has those faculties!  Heck! even I had to learn that and I was way more stubborn that you are.

Every open source project has an inner structure, a filter system so to speak, all of them, SMF isn't special, I would dare to say that we are even lacking on that aspect.

So yeah, if you contribute with something that something will be reviewed and declined/applied/combined/merged/changed/etc. Not wanting to contribute because of fear to be rejected or because you don't want anyone to touch what you do, is, IMO a poor excuse and goes against what OS stands for BTW.

I had several ideas turned down, several ideas where changed, code portions of mine were re-made yet here I am...
Disclaimer: unless otherwise stated, all my posts are personal and does not represent any views or opinions held by Simple Machines.

Bloc

You miss the obvious: there are very few that can actually give me a GOOD answer if a design I make is any good or not. Why? Because so few actually know anything about it,let alone made any themes. Code? yeah, bundles of knowledge around there. But design? Not so much.

So why again should I commit anything to you, when you *should* have people on the team that work with design? Or did you forget to add those lol...And again this amateur psychology pops up everytime I try to make a point lol, do I attract that? :P I am in no way saying that what I do should automatically be accepted. What I have always "preached" is acknowledging someones talents without second-guessing everything. At least have the courtesy to learn more about it first.

Ironically I think you know exactly what I am talking about.


..and yeah, a poll. Why not? You haven't been here that long, but default theme for 1.1 was actually several items in the beginning. So a few propositions from people on/off team..why is that so bad? You get a general feeling from 1000+ users. If the choices are all equally good alternatives - why not? But its a minor point, since so few make good enough themes nowadays, to warrant using it as a default theme. I do know what a default theme is AND what it entails, thank you.

And this "put up or shut up" argument... I have given enough time and work for this community over 12 years, thats more than most people. I don't have to prove anything there. Maybe that is my real problem, I can't let go of this community in general. Though i tried often enough, to the point where certain self-righteous individuals have seen fit to question my sanity based on it. :o  :P

Suki

Quote from: Bloccy on February 01, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
You miss the obvious: there are very few that can actually give me a GOOD answer if a design I make is any good or not. Why? Because so few actually know anything about it,let alone made any themes. Code? yeah, bundles of knowledge around there. But design? Not so much.

Good? thats relative, you are further proving my point... good answers to who? to you? as in in agreement with everything you design?

If I say I don't like your designs does that mean I don't know anything about design?  because thats what you are implying, if anyone disagree with you then that person automatically knows nothing about design... I've seen this same way of thinking around here more often than I would actually want...


Quote from: Bloccy on February 01, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
So why again should I commit anything to you, when you *should* have people on the team that work with design? Or did you forget to add those lol...And again this amateur psychology pops up everytime I try to make a point lol, do I attract that? :P I am in no way saying that what I do should automatically be accepted. What I have always "preached" is acknowledging someones talents without second-guessing everything. At least have the courtesy to learn more about it first.

Because this is an Open source project?, I really really don't want to explain what an open project means but in essence it means that ANYONE can contribute, being on the team or not is irrelevant. I can quit the team right now and still be able to submit code as I've been doing all this time. My code still will be submitted to approval. Same thing for a designer. Exactly the same thing.

I don't know what you mean by "amateur psychology", to me, been an amateur simply means you don't get any monetary compensation from your work. We are, indeed, a bunch of amateurs. I believe you feel the word "amateur" has some kind of negative connotation?  thats simply isn't the case.

Acknowledge someone's talent is something that is pretty much granted (If you are able to come up with a design, any design then it means you know your stuff...) but really,what you want is someone who constantly preach you an adore everything you do. Someone who never ever question your ways and methods. That isn't bad per se, if you want that kind of thing then its your choice but that way of thinking simply doesn't belong here.

If you feel your ego needs to be constantly feed then a team environment in an open source project simply isn't the best choice for you. If you constantly want to be "acknowledge" every time and every where then this environment simply isn't the best choice for you. You will hardly ever receive any acknowledge for what you do, instead, you will receive tons of ****** from things that you don't do :P

So, if you want to contribute, then contribute, if you don't want to contribute then don't, as simple as that but this childish "I know better than you but I don't want to put any effort on it" needs to stop, really. If you know your stuff then GOOD FOR YOU! congratulations. We all grow in awe for you! Now that I have acknowledged your utter superiority, allow me to get back to my work :)

Quote from: Bloccy on February 01, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
Ironically I think you know exactly what I am talking about.

Do I want to be  acknowledged? but of course! who doesn't! BUT I also understand that this simply isn't the place for it. I come here because I like to write stuff, not because I want to receive any attention, there are other places more suitable for that :P

Quote from: Bloccy on February 01, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
..and yeah, a poll. Why not? You haven't been here that long, but default theme for 1.1 was actually several items in the beginning. So a few propositions from people on/off team..why is that so bad? You get a general feeling from 1000+ users. If the choices are all equally good alternatives - why not? But its a minor point, since so few make good enough themes nowadays, to warrant using it as a default theme. I do know what a default theme is AND what it entails, thank you.


And you changed your argument... awesome... so we went from a poll for everyone to a poll "from some people"...
We went from "letting everyone to decide" to "offering input" for the team...

OK, I invite you to create a poll about it, if you really think thats a good idea then go for it, if doesn't even have to be for SMF, it might be for a theme or another platform, I dunno. The point here is that you go and actually DO IT, don't just say it, DO IT. You don't have to be on the team to do something like this.


Quote from: Bloccy on February 01, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
And this "put up or shut up" argument... I have given enough time and work for this community over 12 years, thats more than most people. I don't have to prove anything there. Maybe that is my real problem, I can't let go of this community in general. Though i tried often enough, to the point where certain self-righteous individuals have seen fit to question my sanity based on it. :o  :P

If you come here and start arguing about what we should do then yes, I expect you to demonstrate it with some work...  what you did for SMF is appreciated but that stuff will not cover your ass eternally... I believe a lot of old timers/friends feels the same way, they are entitled to everything just because they contributed. True, they need to be acknowledge and take into consideration but there is a difference from that to actually "feel entitled".

It is not my place (nor my desire really), to question your sanity, what I do question is your "self entitleness" and your refusal to contribute, so far you have come up with different arguments, first it was "the team doesn't know" then github, then it was your past contributions covering you and your actions for all eternity... I wonder what other excuses you come up with the next time, I'm rather curious about it :)

It might be better and more efficient if you simply cut the crap and say this: Hey! I want to tell you what to do but I don't want to do anything", at least that would be way more honest :)
Disclaimer: unless otherwise stated, all my posts are personal and does not represent any views or opinions held by Simple Machines.

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