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How to stop simplemachines.org email spamming?

Started by ovee, May 05, 2015, 12:15:35 AM

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Steve

Quote from: Illori on May 12, 2015, 07:23:48 AMwanting to keep this install as close to default as possible

Why is that, btw?
DO NOT pm me for support!

Illori

easier to do upgrades, and those that come here can see how the software works without many mods.

Douglas

Which is why I was pushing for it to become part of core, not a Mod. :)
Doug Hazard
* Full Stack (Web) Developer for The Catholic Diocese of Richmond
(20+ Diocesan sites, 130+ Church sites & 24 School sites)
* Sports Photographer and Media Personality
* CFB Historian
* Tech Admin for one 1M+ post, one 2M+ post and one 10M+ post sites (last two are powered by multiple servers)
* WordPress Developer (Junkie / Guru / Maven / whatever)

Illori

it should be part of the core if that PR is accepted, it will be in 2.1.

as you know 2.0 is no longer getting features added to it.

Steve

DO NOT pm me for support!

Cycloneflame

Seeing as I am also unable to access this setting (why not?), then would it be possible for someone with elevated privileges to un-subscribe me?

QuoteIf you wish to opt-out, please login to the community and then open your profile here: Cycloneflame.
Under the notifications section, you may opt-out. Thank you.

Having this in your emails is somewhat misleading if a "default" account state means you cannot actually access this setting. Some people just hit the "spam" button anyway (as a webmaster, I know this first-hand), but with no one-click link to un-subscribe, you're essentially inviting users to worsen your mail server's spam score.

Thanks.

Douglas

^^ more proof that this needs to be added to the registration page on here.

It's not a new feature, it's not even an enhancement of an existing feature. It's taking an already existing feature and adding it into a location that makes sense and protects SMF, as well as the end user, especially for those that have the potential of reporting these emails as spam.

It needs to be deployed on this site, this version of 2.x STAT. :)

There are *very* few things I will back down on... IMHO, this is one of them. Please make this change.
Doug Hazard
* Full Stack (Web) Developer for The Catholic Diocese of Richmond
(20+ Diocesan sites, 130+ Church sites & 24 School sites)
* Sports Photographer and Media Personality
* CFB Historian
* Tech Admin for one 1M+ post, one 2M+ post and one 10M+ post sites (last two are powered by multiple servers)
* WordPress Developer (Junkie / Guru / Maven / whatever)

LiroyvH

Not quite, some edge cases are dealt with separately when required; which includes the < 10 posts issue and those unfortunate enough to have gotten themselves banned... We're looking in to the best way to make it more clear, which will be done when it's ready: as with anything. :)
((U + C + I)x(10 − S)) / 20xAx1 / (1 − sin(F / 10))
President/CEO of Simple Machines - Server Manager
Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

Steve

Quote from: Douglas on May 26, 2015, 07:01:39 PMIMHO, this is one of them.

Did you mean 'not one of them'? Or am I reading this wrong?
DO NOT pm me for support!

Douglas

Quote from: SteveDid you mean 'not one of them'? Or am I reading this wrong?

I can not modify my posts

Hashtag FAIL. :/
Doug Hazard
* Full Stack (Web) Developer for The Catholic Diocese of Richmond
(20+ Diocesan sites, 130+ Church sites & 24 School sites)
* Sports Photographer and Media Personality
* CFB Historian
* Tech Admin for one 1M+ post, one 2M+ post and one 10M+ post sites (last two are powered by multiple servers)
* WordPress Developer (Junkie / Guru / Maven / whatever)

Burke ♞ Knight

Quote from: Douglas on May 26, 2015, 07:01:39 PM
It's not a new feature, it's not even an enhancement of an existing feature. It's taking an already existing feature and adding it into a location that makes sense and protects SMF, as well as the end user, especially for those that have the potential of reporting these emails as spam.

It needs to be deployed on this site, this version of 2.x STAT. :)

Please make this change.

I really have to agree. There is really NO reason I can see or think of, to say why this should not be done.
Any pauses and "We're looking in to the best way to make it more clear, which will be done when it's ready" is just excuses and basically being lazy about doing what is right.

Now Core, before you blow one of your gaskets, I'm not saying that to be mean or negative or whatever. I'm just stating that there is no true reason to not do this edit here at the SMF site. Being that a lot of people join to get help on an issue, then never be seen again until have another issue, they wont be posting the number of posts required to change it in their profile. So, if stated that they can change it, when they can not, and the email also states it, then YES, it can be considered spam, since they did not opt in, and can't opt out.

LiroyvH

Yeah, I'll pass on taking your flamebait BK; thank you very much. ;)

This is a volunteer organization. Things are rarely done within a fortnight unless it's extremely urgent.
Considering this has not been a problem for 10 years, it isn't listed as "extremely pressing". :)

But we *are* working on it, and you'll have to do it with that... We can't handle everything instantly, and we're known for being thorough with (potential) solutions to issues we've been made aware of, rather than blindly and instantly doing something; nor do we do things without considering alternatives to suggestions that have been made. :) Thought you knew that by now. ;)
There are various solutions, and we're considering a bunch of 'em. Including the ones suggested here. But as people have limited time here, it isn't going to be done super fast. We're doing our best, and that should really say enough. :)

Anyway, saying "you're lazy" from the sidelines is rather easy; I'm expecting we can see a properly executed mod from your hands ready later today? :) One that we could perhaps add to the list of solutions we should consider?
No guarantees that we will use it of course (depends on a few factors), but I am looking forward to it: and thanks in advance for your submission! :)
((U + C + I)x(10 − S)) / 20xAx1 / (1 − sin(F / 10))
President/CEO of Simple Machines - Server Manager
Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

Douglas

Only I get to call Liroy lazy!

Let me be very clear... I know I keep pushing for this change... but I am appreciative that it's being taken under consideration (though I've got half a mind to kick some ass to get stuff going into high gear... but that's just how I am. :D)
Doug Hazard
* Full Stack (Web) Developer for The Catholic Diocese of Richmond
(20+ Diocesan sites, 130+ Church sites & 24 School sites)
* Sports Photographer and Media Personality
* CFB Historian
* Tech Admin for one 1M+ post, one 2M+ post and one 10M+ post sites (last two are powered by multiple servers)
* WordPress Developer (Junkie / Guru / Maven / whatever)

Burke ♞ Knight

Quote from: CoreISP on May 27, 2015, 12:11:38 AM
Anyway, saying "you're lazy" from the sidelines is rather easy; I'm expecting we can see a properly executed mod from your hands ready later today? :) One that we could perhaps add to the list of solutions we should consider?
No guarantees that we will use it of course (depends on a few factors), but I am looking forward to it: and thanks in advance for your submission! :)

Last I looked, there WAS a mod to do this. ;)

Select Newsletters at Registration by margarett

Steve

Looks like he got ya there Core. *ducks and runs* :P
DO NOT pm me for support!

LiroyvH

Quote from: Burke ♞ Knight on May 27, 2015, 07:54:37 AM
Last I looked, there WAS a mod to do this. ;)

Yep. But I want an alternative solution... From your hand. Not stolen.
Today, please. Coding up an actual unsubscribe link sounds like an idea!

Quote from: Steve on May 27, 2015, 08:54:32 AM
Looks like he got ya there Core. *ducks and runs* :P

No not really, it has not been decided yet if that's what we want here. That's just an assumption being made by BK... Which he has done more often.
And when people make assumptions and then even proceed to call the team lazy based on said assumption, it becomes rather sad of a situation.

As always, we try to keep this forum as vanilla as possible (which really has been mentioned a million times here, so it's not like that's something that regulars don't know about :P); and as the security/patch e-mails are extremely important: we don't want to try and actively discourage it; or risk discouraging it. Hence why it's carefully being looked at on how to handle it here. ;) There's various ways, all have their small issues to overcome.
And according to BK, it seems that thoroughly thinking about our users and the "as close to vanilla as possible" SMF experience here rather than instantly applying one of the possible solutions (margarett's mod that he quickly and nicely made for the people included!) makes us lazy people. In a positive way... Or something.

So whilst we certainly could apply Margarett's mod today, it's not certain (yet) if we actually *will* do that.

Quote from: Douglas on May 27, 2015, 12:45:01 AM
Let me be very clear... I know I keep pushing for this change... but I am appreciative that it's being taken under consideration (though I've got half a mind to kick some ass to get stuff going into high gear... but that's just how I am. :D)

By all means, keep kicking. ;)
We do appreciate constructive feedback, and it's not a lie when I say it's all under consideration. :)
Community feedback, when constructive rather than being baseless attacks, is important to us and really appreciated.

But I don't have to tell you that, you know. :P
((U + C + I)x(10 − S)) / 20xAx1 / (1 − sin(F / 10))
President/CEO of Simple Machines - Server Manager
Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

Burke ♞ Knight

Let me make one thing clear here, Core.
I was not making assumptions.
You asked for a solution, and I only pointed out that one had already been made, and by a team member at that.
I never said to actually install the mod, making this forum non-vanilla, but stated there was already a solution that could be done.
One that really could also be incorporated into the 2.0.x core and put into the next update. Which we all know, even if not discussed, that there's a possibility for a next update to the 2.0.x line. ;)

Why should I take time to code something that has already been done, better than I could have done? That would be a waste of my time. Also, I do not post my mods here, so getting it to you, would be rather difficult, no?

For your information, I was not making a baseless attack. I had clearly stated in that post that it was not meant to be taken that way. But, I do feel, that is how the delay in this is looking to people. Something like this, that could get SMF listed as spamming, since people can not opt out if not posting 10 posts, is not a trivial back burner issue. Sure, it may not come up much, but now that it is in the open, you know as well as I do, that others will also see it as that. I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone that would rather see people opt out of important news, than to have the SMF domain being listed as spammer.

If that is baseless attack to you, then know what? So be it!

Your biggest problem, Core, is whenever people get on about something, and you disagree, or don't want to put up with it, you get to where you start saying it's baseless attack this, or assumptions... Well, sometimes, you got to look at things not from your position in the organization, but as a normal user of the product you are serving. Sometimes, it's very easy to see things in a way that normal every day people do not. That does not mean they are making assumptions or baseless attacks, when they are trying to get something fixed, that really, should have been done ever since the 10 posts to modify the profile had been engaged.

"Coding up an actual unsubscribe link sounds like an idea!" Well, that would be fun, but the way the permissions are done in SMF, when have post count set to modify profile, any link in email to unsubscribe, will not work. That is why, the only way to have the post count block of profile modifying and the opt out is the way the listed mod is. That's the only viable way to do it, and do it right. That is why that mod was made, and that is why I posted the link to it. The message in the email, really also should be edited to state that you need to have the 10 posts, in order to opt out that way, too.

Steve

Quote from: CoreISP on May 27, 2015, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 27, 2015, 08:54:32 AMLooks like he got ya there Core. *ducks and runs* :P

No not really, it has not been decided yet if that's what we want here.

I was just being facetious to lighten the mood a little, failing apparently. I'll let you and BK duke it out ... :P
DO NOT pm me for support!

Burke ♞ Knight

Either way, if not that mod, then something.
I understand it takes time to decide on what is best, but this is really something that should have been done long ago.
I also do understand and fully agree with why the 10 posts to modify profile, but I do not think the opting out of emails should have been included into that. Yes, I know it's included due to location of it, and I'm not blaming anyone for it. It's just that we all know times change, and things also have to change, whether we like it, or not. ;)

If you all are working on something, then fine, but lets try to get it done before people decide to hit the "Report Spam" button in their email clients.

LiroyvH

*sigh*
Fine.
Despite knowing much better than this and that I really ought not to respond (in detail), i'll humor you and take the bait.

Quote
Let me make one thing clear here, Core.
I was not making assumptions.

Lol.
Quote
... is just excuses and basically being lazy about doing what is right ...
Quote... before you blow one of your gaskets ...

Yeah, totally no assumptions at all.


Quote
You asked for a solution, and I only pointed out that one had already been made, and by a team member at that.

I was not really asking for any solution at all.
I was pointing out that you once again failed to realize that this is a volunteer organization, and that there might be more going on behind the scenes than you're aware about; and thus should stop jumping to your baseless assumptions, false accusations, etc. based on nothing but your own thoughts.
It's a problem we've seen from you before, and that you stay oblivious to it after being called out on it several times almost makes it look like you're doing it on purpose... I hope that is not the case.

Maybe write it on a note?
"What I think the team is/isn't doing, might (not) be what they're actually doing. What I believe people are thinking, might not be what they're really thinking. I should work with the facts, rather than assumptions."

Quote
Why should I take time to code something that has already been done, better than I could have done? That would be a waste of my time. Also, I do not post my mods here, so getting it to you, would be rather difficult, no?

Not an excuse, that's been your own choice.

Quote
For your information, I was not making a baseless attack. I had clearly stated in that post that it was not meant to be taken that way

You don't get to call the team lazy and "making excuses", and then say "but that isn't negative" as some sort of weird excuse for your behavior. :P
To call the hard working people here lazy, is most certainly uncalled for and absolutely baseless; no matter how much you say "I don't mean it in a negative way".
If that would suddenly make it positive, you can call anyone names as long as you say "it isn't negative"...

If that's really what you believe, I'll duly note it. :')
But for someone that made a big deal about the common saying "teach your grandma to suck eggs", and wasn't receptive to the explanation: I slightly doubt you really believe that... Unless that was a troll attempt.
But who knows, maybe I'm mistaken or maybe you changed your mind.

Quote
But, I do feel, that is how the delay in this is looking to people.

It looks like you're mistaking "people" for "myself" again. Perhaps you should stop speaking on behalf of other people for a change?
If they want to say something: they can. Which is also something we told you multiple times...

This far, all I'm seeing are people that want something changed: but certainly do understand it'll take a short amount of time whilst we're having the matter under consideration, and that we're limited by the time the volunteers here can spend on working on the best solution.
After all, we're very busy with SMF 2.1 next to other regular day to day jobs that need to be done here. So yeah, it'll be a wee bit slow.

Sure, some people will be impatient. Like yourself.
The only thing I can say to that is: deal with it. We're all volunteers...


Quote
Something like this, that could get SMF listed as spamming, since people can not opt out if not posting 10 posts, is not a trivial back burner issue. I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone that would rather see people opt out of important news, than to have the SMF domain being listed as spammer.

Then perhaps you should read the discussion first, as I've already explained the "issue that should make it top priority" that you're talking about. ;)

We do absolutely want to fix annoyances for people though, like the ones that came here to complain about it. :)
And that's why we're looking at potential ways to solve it, and potentially enhance it in a total solution...
Whether or not that solution will be exactly what has been proposed here: *that* is another matter, it may be: it may not be. We'll see.
Incidentally, Margarett's mod is not a solution to that particular problem; so what are we even talking about on that regard.

Quote
If that is baseless attack to you, then know what? So be it!

That's the spirit.
Apologizing for calling the team "lazy and just making excuses" might have been a better road to take...


Quote
Your biggest problem, Core, is whenever people get on about something, and you disagree, or don't want to put up with it, you get to where you start saying it's baseless attack this, or assumptions... Well, sometimes, you got to look at things not from your position in the organization, but as a normal user of the product you are serving. Sometimes, it's very easy to see things in a way that normal every day people do not. That does not mean they are making assumptions or baseless attacks, when they are trying to get something fixed, that really, should have been done ever since the 10 posts to modify the profile had been engaged.

Oh for the love of god, take your head out of your rear will you? :X
Once again you're making false accusations about me. I'm honestly getting slightly fed up with your nonsense.
I'm always open to feedback, but of course: if I disagree, I will say so. And if people like you attack the team: I will most certainly defend them.
There's a difference between (vocally) disagreeing with something, and defending the team from ridiculous accusations uttered by someone screaming from the sideline.

The very reason you might have seen me call things baseless attacks and assumptions more often, is because you make a habit out of uttering them...
Perhaps you should work on that problem first? Then you won't hear it from me anymore. That or just make another goodbye topic. *shrugs*



I'm very happy with the constructive feedback provided here, namely by Douglas.
If you read his posts, he has a very clear and vocal opinion. Whilst it is in the typical bear style; he words it properly and makes recommendations in a good and proper way. I don't necessarily agree with the way he believes it should be fixed and implemented, but the beauty is: we do not have to.
We can disagree, and from disagreement can stem more discussion and a various amount of opinions/compromises: and then hopefully get the perfect end-result.
Awesome! I don't see any reason why people should agree on everything all the time, and I'm very happy there actually IS disagreement. It provides valuable insights.

Then you come along, partially repeat what has already been said and then start accusing the team of "making excuses and being lazy.".
And you seriously expect me to believe that I should not see that as a baseless attack, but as a very friendly piece of text from you? Please... That was an uncalled for and baseless attack, and if you really believe I should sit idly by whilst our volunteers are dragged through the mud: you're quite mistaken.


Now unless you have anything actually ontopic and constructive to add: by all means.
Otherwise, please stop posting nonsense and derailing the topic. I'm not really interested in another off-topic response.
Thanks in advance.



Once more: we are working on it. We are doing our best to come up with a solution.
Have some patience, and thanks once again to everyone who has provided valuable constructive feedback: we really appreciate it.
Valid complaints are really helpful to us to enhance our modus operandi and the product! :)

Anyone that has <10 posts and wants to unsubscribe is more than welcome to request an opt-out from us in this topic or by PM to either myself or Kindred, and we'll gladly process it whilst we're working on looking in to a solution that enables them to do it themselves.

Thank you.
((U + C + I)x(10 − S)) / 20xAx1 / (1 − sin(F / 10))
President/CEO of Simple Machines - Server Manager
Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

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