News:

SMF 2.1.4 has been released! Take it for a spin! Read more.

Main Menu

Birtday messages to banned members

Started by Black Tiger, July 02, 2015, 08:19:43 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Black Tiger

Just discovered that a "happy birthday" message was send to a user which was banned.

Is the mechanisme not checking the status of a user before sending an email?
I did not expect the software to send anything to banned members.

Can this be fixed (except by upgrading to 2.1.x)?
Greetings, Black Tiger

Illori

#1
looks to me like it is checked if the user is activated and not banned already. how do you know a banned user got a birthday email?

Quote from: Arantor on April 14, 2011, 03:43:15 PM
There is no documentation.

What I can tell you is this:

0 - pending activation
1 - active
2 - I think this is for members who were active and changed their email
3 - never encountered this
4 - pending deletion
5 - pending COPPA form completion

Add 10 if the user is banned.

// So who are the lucky ones?  Don't include those who are banned and those who don't want them.
$result = $smcFunc['db_query']('', '
SELECT id_member, real_name, lngfile, email_address
FROM {db_prefix}members
WHERE is_activated < 10
AND MONTH(birthdate) = {int:month}
AND DAYOFMONTH(birthdate) = {int:day}
AND notify_announcements = {int:notify_announcements}
AND YEAR(birthdate) > {int:year}',
array(
'notify_announcements' => 1,
'year' => 1,
'month' => $month,
'day' => $day,
)
);


the code has WHERE is_activated < 10 and <10 are banned users so they should not receive the email.

Dav999

This 10 is only getting added with a full ban, not with a "can't login" ban or a postban.

Black Tiger

Quotehow do you know a banned user got a birthday email?
Because I got an undeliverable mail message from my mailer daemon that the email address did not exist anymore.
In those cases I check the last time the user logged in and then I saw that it was a banned user.

Ah I might have found the cause. This user registered beginning last year.
After I banned him this year by giving him a full ban, I also blocked the email domain he used from registering by a bantrigger and called that trigger "temp email".
At this moment SMF says the user is banned as result of a ban called "temp email".

However, when I click his account and choose "ban this user" it says by default "full ban". Even if I click this now and save it, and have a look at the user account, it still says that it's banned by the temp email trigger.

So on some way it looks like SMF prioritizes a the temp email ban which should prvent users from registering above the full ban which was given before.
Or I'm missing something.
Greetings, Black Tiger

Black Tiger

Greetings, Black Tiger

Kindred

there is nothing specific to fix...   you have basically encountered a condition which most people would never see -- where a two bans affect one user...


Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Black Tiger

That's not really a good argument.
I don't see how there's nothing to fix. If somebody decides to ban the yahoo.com or hotmail.com domain they might run into several of these cases.

Birthday messages just should not be send to banned users, no matter which way they are banned imho. Banned=banned.
Greetings, Black Tiger

Niko_Bellic

Quote from: Black Tiger on July 06, 2015, 07:50:01 PM
Birthday messages just should not be send to banned users, no matter which way they are banned imho. Banned=banned.

Sorry, but I disagree.
What if you banned a person for a 2 week period, for something, but do want them to be able to return after the ban.
Should these members also "not get the birthday emails" if their birthday falls into the ban time?
If they are only temp banned, due to something, then they are still active members, and deserve to be treated as such.
This includes the Happy Birthday emails.

Black Tiger

And how did you think to achieve that Niko_Bellic? There is no single forum software which does that by default.
If you read this thread correctly, this is a software mistake (a bug) and in fact should not happen.

The temp ban trigger (not group) I created myself, and users which use that email domain, can't register, so logically no birthday email should be send. Full ban is also no birthday email by default. So we're talking about a bug here. Which makes me wonder why Kindred finds there would be nothing to fix. Bugs are normally fixed. ;)

Just for argument sake... If a user misbehaved himself so he would earn a ban, I can't see how he's still an active member. Banned users can't do anything, and should not receive any birthday email. This way it's on all forum software around known to me.
Unless maybe they have a special temp banned group which has those capabilities (I don't know of any). Which isn't the case right now in my issue.
Greetings, Black Tiger

Kindred

#9
Well, actually I did present a good argument...

First..full ban != temp or post ban

Plain and simple you are wrong... Banned is not just banned, there are different levels of ban and being post banned or temp banned is not the same as a full perm ban.

IMO, the software is working as designed and your impression of it being a bug is merely because you have a unique situation which would not normally occur on a forum.
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Niko_Bellic

Quote from: Black Tiger on July 06, 2015, 08:17:32 PM
And how did you think to achieve that Niko_Bellic? There is no single forum software which does that by default.
If you read this thread correctly, this is a software mistake (a bug) and in fact should not happen.

Black Tiger, I did not read this wrong.
This is not a software bug, but more like a user error!
Or more precisely, a user misinterpretation of how features work, and what happens, when the user messes up.
As for how I "think to achieve this": Logically, like a human should.
If someone is temp banned, then yes, it keeps them from posting and such, but should have no effect on emails, birthday, or notification emails.
Yes, there are several forums that still send the birthday emails to members that are temp banned. I know this for a fact, because I was temp banned on another forum, using a paid software, and still got my birthday and notification emails. Before you say something, research it!




Quote from: Black Tiger on July 06, 2015, 08:17:32 PM
The temp ban trigger (not group) I created myself, and users which use that email domain, can't register, so logically no birthday email should be send. Full ban is also no birthday email by default. So we're talking about a bug here. Which makes me wonder why Kindred finds there would be nothing to fix. Bugs are normally fixed. ;)

Didn't you say before:
Quote from: Black Tiger on July 03, 2015, 07:18:48 AM
Ah I might have found the cause. This user registered beginning last year.
After I banned him this year by giving him a full ban, I also blocked the email domain he used from registering by a bantrigger and called that trigger "temp email".
At this moment SMF says the user is banned as result of a ban called "temp email".

However, when I click his account and choose "ban this user" it says by default "full ban". Even if I click this now and save it, and have a look at the user account, it still says that it's banned by the temp email trigger.


Kindred answered that, very nicely:

Quote from: Kindred on July 06, 2015, 07:16:20 PM
there is nothing specific to fix...   you have basically encountered a condition which most people would never see -- where a two bans affect one user...




Quote from: Black Tiger on July 06, 2015, 08:17:32 PM
And how did you think to achieve that Niko_Bellic? There is no single forum software which does that by default.
Just for argument sake... If a user misbehaved himself so he would earn a ban, I can't see how he's still an active member. Banned users can't do anything, and should not receive any birthday email. This way it's on all forum software around known to me.
Unless maybe they have a special temp banned group which has those capabilities (I don't know of any). Which isn't the case right now in my issue.

Like I stated above, I know from personal experience, that your data is incorrect.

Steve

I think we're running into fact vs. opinion here and there is no solution short of having a mod created to do what the OP believes the software should do.

Fact: the software is working as designed (ergo, by definition, this can't be a bug)

Opinion: the software should not perform a certain function under certain conditions

Since it's working as designed, the only other option I see is a mod ... that's what mods are for, to make the core software do things it wasn't specifically designed to do.

And sniping at each other isn't going to change any of this.

:)
DO NOT pm me for support!

Black Tiger

@Kindred:
Quoteyou have a unique situation which would not normally occur on a forum.
It might be unique at this moment. I gave an example which would make it far from unique. It is a bug because it should not happen.
I do appreciate your answer, but from my example you could read that it might not be so unique when people start blocking email domains.
So the only issue is that I don't understand why and where exactly this is working as designed. That I'm the only one discovering this (or having this issue right now) is not a prove that it's not a bug.

@Niko:
QuoteBlack Tiger, I did not read this wrong.
This is not a software bug, but more like a user error!
So you did read it wrong, no user error is made. You are talking about a temp ban. A temp ban was never issued by me.
Next to that I did research, you should read better because I clearly stated:
QuoteUnless maybe they have a special temp banned group which has those capabilities (I don't know of any).
Which makes your comment about my researching obsolute. So you might have encountered some forum software which did. I also worked with paid sofware for 15 years, also know what I'm talking about.
And on that forum software I also could create various bans amongst which normal full bans (which I did now) and domain register blocks (which I did too).

So again, in this case there is no issue about some temp ban because there is no temp ban made.
There is an issue about a user, which has a double full ban. First a full ban. Which should take precedense because that one was given at first. Full ban = no birthday email als you could read from Illori's answer.
After that there was issued a email ban trigger so users could not register with that domain anymore.
Both of those are default ban features, so no user error and no misinterpretation. Investigate yourself please before commenting, no need for sniping at me.

@Steve:
I like your comment, but I still can't understand why the software is working as designed.
Mod's are designed to create special things which are not default. To me it's quite clear the full ban is not working, at least not as designed and explained in Illori's statement.

Let's all keep it to the content of the issue please.
If maybe someone could explain to me what exactly is working as designed I would greatly appreciate it.

We all agree that a full ban should no send out birthday emails, also according to Illori's explanation, correct?
Since emails are send out, it must be the domain trigger which is causing the issue.

This is my thought.
1.) Why doesn't the first given full ban take precedence? So why is this account still used for birthday emails? Full ban (never lift) is no temp ban.
2.) Since when does a user which can't register because of a banned domain needs to receive birthday emails?

Shortly, these are my two arguments why this is not working as designed.
The only thing to do is to explain why email sending is working as designed in this case. I know not everybody has this situation. But as stated, when people start to block email domains (like hotmail), and they already have banned hotmail members, the same situation will appear and then it's not unique anymore.

Please take in mind I'm just pointing to this to help improve SMF, not to attack it on it's failures because that would make no sense. If this won't be fixed, oke by me, but then explain why it's working as designed.
Greetings, Black Tiger

Black Tiger

P.s. I agree if you think it's working as designed because the "email domain ban trigger" is not > 10, but the user should not be in there is my argument, because I banned him with a full ban first, which should make him a > 10 user.
The ban trigger should not move him to another userlevel afterwards, correct?
Greetings, Black Tiger

Kindred

it is working as designed because there is no normal circumstance in which a user should be affected by a temp ban, a post ban and/or a perm ban...

So, the situation should not arise...

If a user is on a temp ban or a post ban, then that user SHOULD receive the birthday notification. Yup... That is correct as well.

If you have banned by domain, why don't you delete those accounts which previously used that domain?
If you are banning by domain in an attempt to stop spammers, then you are going about it the wrong way from the very start. At this point, the bane system should not be used for spammers - there are much better ways to stop spammers BEFORE they register than to implement a ban (which is easily bypassed in seconds by the spam bots as they switch to a new domain, new IP and new account)
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Black Tiger

Thank you for trying to explain, that's very nice of you.

QuoteIf a user is on a temp ban or a post ban, then that user SHOULD receive the birthday notification. Yup... That is correct as well.
So it's always like that? There is no choice for the admin to decide about the birthday emails? I understand that is working as designed.

QuoteIf you have banned by domain, why don't you delete those accounts which previously used that domain?
Because in case of a lot of users, this can be a lot of work. Just banning the domain would be easier. However I will go and check them to delete them now. I did not expect that kind of banned users to also get birthday messages if the "never lift" option was activated.

By the way... The domain ban is not to stop spammers. On our forums we don't want users with those one-day-registration-domain emails. So we block all those email domains, and if we encounter new ones, we add them to that bantrigger. So it's not used to stop spammers.
We stop spammers before registration by other means, like questions and other stuff, like you say.

I don't agree about sending mails to "never lift" banned users, but since it's implemented that way, it's indeed working as designed.
Thank you for clarifying.
Greetings, Black Tiger

Niko_Bellic

Why in the world, if it's a temp ban, would any sane admin want to disable emails, birthday and/or notifications, from that member?
The whole meaning of temp ban, means the member is still an active member, who will be able to post again, when the ban runs out.

To stop them from getting emails, is plain stupid, in my opinion.

Also, just because you worked for one paid forum that does not do this, does not mean all other forums behave like you want them to.
So yes, I say, do your research. I personally, have worked with over 7 paid and free forums programs, and the ones that I had banned people on, temp ones still got all their emails.

Black Tiger

QuoteWhy in the world, if it's a temp ban,
READ!!!! I gave him a full ban!

For the rest I don't even answer anymore to halfwits who are calling people in sane and stupid. Have good life!
Greetings, Black Tiger

Niko_Bellic

Halfwit?
Look in the mirror, man. You are the one that said:

Quote from: Black Tiger on July 06, 2015, 08:17:32 PM
The temp ban trigger (not group) I created myself, and users which use that email domain, can't register, so logically no birthday email should be send. Full ban is also no birthday email by default. So we're talking about a bug here. Which makes me wonder why Kindred finds there would be nothing to fix. Bugs are normally fixed. ;)

Just for argument sake... If a user misbehaved himself so he would earn a ban, I can't see how he's still an active member. Banned users can't do anything, and should not receive any birthday email. This way it's on all forum software around known to me.

As for the email blocking, I also agree that is a good idea. However, you are going about it the wrong way.
Using the ban system, is actually heavy on server resources, as has been pointed out several times on the forum here.

There is a mod, that is made to block these emails. Have you tried that?

Kindred

Ok guys... Quit the name calling...
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Advertisement: