Show Permissions, Restricted boards, shows Additional Membergroups boards

Started by badon, September 08, 2016, 04:16:26 PM

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badon

SMF 2.0.11

Profile > Show Permissions > Restricted boards

Shows UNrestricted boards that are accessible with a Regular Member's Additional Membergroups. My searches for previous bug reports:

* smf membergroups OR "member groups" additional site:www.simplemachines.org - Google Search
* Issues · SimpleMachines/SMF2.1 - Search for "Show Permissions"
* Issues · SimpleMachines/SMF2.1 -  Search for "Restricted boards"
* Search results for: "Show Permissions"
* Search results for: "Restricted boards"

I also updated the documentation to indicate there are actually 5 defacto types of membergroups that all behave differently, with various different features and configuration limitations:

SMF2.0:Membergroups - Online Manual - oldid=30765

There needs to be a table of all the differences, but by the time that gets made and becomes comprehensive, SMF might have advanced to eliminate all the inconsistencies that need to be described in such a large format of information presentation. Correct me if I'm wrong. If it's not planned to simplify membergroups, I could start building out the table of documentation information on each type of defacto membergroup.

Illori

there are not 5 types of groups, there are only 2 types of groups. a post count group and a non-post count group. as such the info you added to the wiki will be removed.

a primary group and an additional group are the same type of group they just provide different levels of access.

the guest group is not really a different type of group. it is the primary membergroup of the guests.

badon

That's why I called them "defacto" groups, because they function differently with regard to the features and permissions typically available in membergroups. And no, primary and additional membergroups are NOT the same. Maybe it's another bug? In any case, there are enough inconsistencies that there are indeed 5 different types of member groups that need to be considered when attempting to do the same 1 thing to all of them (like controlling board access). My information you eliminated, including edit conflict info that didn't get submitted:


Quote
There are 5 different types of member groups that each behave differently:

# Guests (unregistered users)
# Regular Members (Also confusingly called "no primary membergroup")
# Primary Membergroup
# Additional Membergroups
# Post count based groups

Every member of a forum always belongs to at least 2 membergroups:

# Regular Members OR Primary Membergroup
# Post count based groups

These 3 types of membergroups are automatically assigned to users by default, when needed, with limited manual configuration ability:

# Guests (unregistered users)
# Regular Members (Also confusingly called "no primary membergroup")
# Post count based groups

These 2 types of membergroups must be configured before they can be assigned to members:

# Primary Membergroup
# Additional Membergroups

== Forum permissions ==

Forum permissions are given to membergroups. This means that the membergroups that users belong to determine what they can see and do on the forum.

Primary Membergroup and Additional Membergroups behave differently when '''inherit from''' is used. For example, if a Regular Member DOES NOT have permission to access a board, an access-granting member group that inherits permissions from Regular Member DOES NOT WORK to grant access when in Additional Membergroups. The Allowed Groups board permission does not actually allow groups that are Additional Membergroups.

badon

This text is wrong in the modify boards page, with regard to primary and additional member groups:

Note: if the member is in any group or post group checked, they will have access to this board.

Maybe that's actually a second bug I've discovered, not a feature (or caveat), and as such does not belong on the documentation wiki.

Kindred

Sorry, you are wrong.

There are only two types of member groups, as Illori said. Post cout based groups and non post count based groups.

The permissions for moderators are a special case, which only apply when the users is in the board which they moderate...  However, all other groups act exactly the same


Primary and secondary groups are identical with regards to permissions.
The only thing that is different between the two is that secondary member groups are not displayed as badges in the profile or miniprofile.

Also, guests are identical to regular users, as far as membergroups and permissions go...

Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

badon

Wrong about what? The bugs, or the features? I seem to be having difficulty distinguishing which is which.

Kindred

Pretty much wrong about everything, in this case, as far as I can tell.

You are wrong with regards to 5 types of membergroup...  Wrong about how membergroups are treated and wrong about there being a bug.  It all seems to work exactly as expected from my checks
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

badon

What were your checks? Did you try to duplicate the conditions that reveal the bug in this bug report?

Kindred

Yes.

I use secondary groups for granting access to boards all of the time
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Irisado

Just a quick comment in relation to procedure, before making any major change to a wiki page please open a topic in the Documentation Help board to discuss the proposed change before going ahead and just doing it in the future :).
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

badon

Quote from: Irisado on September 09, 2016, 07:54:50 AM
Just a quick comment in relation to procedure, before making any major change to a wiki page please open a topic in the Documentation Help board to discuss the proposed change before going ahead and just doing it in the future :).

I looked for rules on that, and since much documentation is out of date or otherwise not helpful, I got the impression no one was taking the initiative to do it, and contributions were very welcome. The Discussion/Talk link does not work:

http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/SMF2.0_talk:Membergroups

The Help link in the sidebar goes to mediawiki.org, which is the wrong place to go to find a FAQ about editing collaboration:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Contents

And we have the "Mean One" telling me that my bug report is invalid when he hasn't even tried to duplicate it yet. I don't even know why he's here. So, basically I've wasted about 6 hours on bug testing, searching for previous bug reports, searching for best practices or FAQ's and documentation about contributions, writing a bug report, writing documentation, and then finally getting it all thrown out as invalid.

This isn't my first time writing a bug report, or editing MediaWiki. I did everything a conscientious bug reporter and wiki editor should do, and more that was invited, but not actually welcome. That wasted a huge amount of my time. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I doubt you'll be able to convince many people to try harder than I did to get my contributions right.

I recommend you permit documentation editing only for people who have asked for the ability to do it. Then you can make sure they know what you expect them to know, instead of just hoping they will guess correctly on the first try. At minimum, your mediawiki.org sidebar "Help" link needs to go somewhere more relevant.

Kindred

Well, first, I did try to recreated it and I already answered you regarding that. And I said that I could not recreate your issue, not that your report was invalid....

Second, the documentation is not out of date.

Third, you edited the wiki, but your edits were incorrect or mistaken understanding on how things work.

We appreciate bug reports... However, when a report can not be recreated and the edits you made to the wiki suggest that you don't actually understand how the system really works, what are we to think?
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Irisado

Quote from: badon on September 09, 2016, 11:11:46 PM
I looked for rules on that, and since much documentation is out of date or otherwise not helpful, I got the impression no one was taking the initiative to do it, and contributions were very welcome.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=472427.0

The rules are there posted in that topic.  Please take particular note of the last line in bold.

Even just a cursory glance at the number of topics posted in the Documentation Help board would demonstrate how much work goes on relative to the documentation here.  In addition, significant amounts of the documentation for SMF have been updated over the last three years, including all the as an administrator, as a moderator, and as a regular user categories, while the FAQ pages have now almost all been revised.  Therefore, to claim that the documentation is out of date is factually incorrect.

QuoteThe Discussion/Talk link does not work:

Talk pages have been disabled deliberately here, so it's not supposed to.

QuoteThe Help link in the sidebar goes to mediawiki.org, which is the wrong place to go to find a FAQ about editing collaboration:

That Help link is for help with using the wiki, such as code and other functions, it's not supposed to link to help pages here.  The sticky topic that I have linked to above is where you need to go for SMF's wiki guidelines.

QuoteI recommend you permit documentation editing only for people who have asked for the ability to do it. Then you can make sure they know what you expect them to know, instead of just hoping they will guess correctly on the first try. At minimum, your mediawiki.org sidebar "Help" link needs to go somewhere more relevant.

It's not necessary to restrict permissions in the way you suggest, because the majority of contributors discuss making changes of such a substantive nature, rather than just going ahead and making them without any discussion.  In fact, discussion about wiki pages is always welcome and improvements will always be made when members of the community find legitimate issues with pages, so you're welcome to contribute.  All that we ask, as I have stated earlier, is that any substantive changes are discussed in a topic in the Documentation Help board before alterations are made.  I think that this is a reasonable request :).
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

live627

Quote
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=472427.0

The rules are there posted in that topic.  Please take particular note of the last line in bold.
Is that on the wiki?

Irisado

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

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