Dear SMF,
I am a very big fan of this forum software. I do not want to cause waves here or be banned PLEASE. But, I have to stand for what I believe. Nao is the developer of two of SMF's most promising and/or popular mods and is tireless in his support for said mods to the point where I have even tried to get him to chill out for his own good. In the last couple days, a troll has been antagonizing him over some minor issue, some request for a new feature in his gallery mod. No one is perfect and he may not have reacted perfectly to this guy's antagonism but the SMF staff or whatever they are called have left him hanging out to dry, allowed him to be disrespected in his own mod thread while his is giving so much. Hey, he should have just ignored the troll, but not only did they ban somone for sticking up for them, which intimidated my defense of him as well, but they have offered him no support on the matter whatsoever. Now, he is going to quit development apparently, which I foresaw was going to happen.
I am begging the SMF staff to reconsider this decision. The troll at the very least owes Nao an apology or at least should be stopped from antagonizing him further by posting in "Nao's threads" and to be honest I even think the SMF team owes him an apology though that is unnecessary I am sure. Anyway, I am asking the SMF team to do SOMETHING to make Nao feel "nurtured" enough to continue his excellent contributions.
Thread in question, starting around here: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=260821.msg1896787#msg1896787
And, Nao's other great mod- AEVA, started by Karl Benson: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=200401.0
Please let the SMF people know that you think they should do something to resolve this to Nao's satisfaction.
Firstly, I am not a troll - my request for support was polite, innocent and not intending to cause argument. Nao initially took it upon himself to respond, not to my question but to a 'wishlist' signature that I had added to my message...
QuoteHi Dragooon,
Just a query, for some reason none of the Highslide animations, fades, lightbox are working? I've enabled the features in SETTINGS and then enabled PER ALBUM too, yet nothing? I'm also not seeing any shadows or curved white edges for thumbnails?
Any ideas?
Cheers, Ash
-------------------------------
My Wishlist for SMG Gallery:
Watermark Feature for uploaded images
Ability to turn on/off which details are shown when viewing a picture (filesize etc)
Support for Bebo video embedding
Supporting for BBC video embedding
His response was unnecessarily sarcastic, assumed that I knew was Aeva was (hadn't heard of it nor what it could do) and responded his comments verging on rude - I at first didn't believe he he was responding in such a way purposely and so questioned whether I has misinterpreted his responses, to which he confirmed with yet another bout of sarcasm. He was clearly provoking me.
Nao then added...
QuoteUntil you apologize, you'll never be able to know whether I'm not inserting in the next versions some custom code to purposely erase *your* gallery on reinstall. That'll be fun.
I admit that I sadly stooped to his low level in my later responses, but only to defend what was being given as response. No mod developer should be responding within a support thread as he did, whether he is asked a question once, or a hundred times he should choose to either ignore it or reply politely - anyone working in a support capacity whether free or paid should appreciate that you will be asked the same question but should have maturity, patience and tact to respond appropriately.
As Metallica and Nas politely requested that the discussion ceased, I did immediately - however Nao and his supporter, or two, continued to provoke and fuel the fire, therefore going against the request of a moderator.
This apparent 'protest' I believe is in order to attempt to get either me banned (without justification), or to win one over on the SMF mod team - a team that Nao himself criticised early on in the discussion, without any appropriate reason to do so - your mods have taken appropriate action in warning us all.
I personally think his most recent posts on the matter are rather pathetic - the modification in question, SMG, is brilliant, its an excellent piece of work (something I have said numerous times within the support thread) - it is however sad that Nao and his god-like persona bring a negative aspect to the mod, an attitude that I believe has been brought to the mods attention on more than one occasion, and before my time.
Writing an SMF mod does not make you better than anyone else, I believe that Nao needs reminding of the fact before he continues to insult, provoke and abuse innocent and loyal SMF users such as myself.
I will just add finally that this troll in response to the "sarcasm" he was upset about enough to start insulting the developer of the mod he wants help with, responded to said "sarcasm" by calling the developer a "twat, troll monkey, idiot".
Come on now.
Gentlemen (I'm assuming that you are), I think this would be a good time for both of you to carefully consider whether continuing in this vein is likely to be productive. Thank you.
I absolutely want this addressed. Please remember I am not the issue. I had no warning of inappropriate behavior and am only defending the developer of SMF's mods.
Quote from: Antechinus on January 29, 2009, 07:25:56 PM
Gentlemen (I'm assuming that you are), I think this would be a good time for both of you to carefully consider whether continuing in this vein is likely to be productive. Thank you.
As far as I'm concerned, the matter ended a long time ago (as you see quite clearly on the SMG Support thread) - it is Nao and co that have exaggerated the matter and tried to warmonger other members into the situation.
Weightman is without doubt provoking this situation further by specifically posting this thread, secondly by posting new topics into Nao related topics to involve other members. It seems some do not have enough drama in their real lifes.
This is the last time I post on the matter - sorry to the moderators for any frustrations, I will certainly not be the cause of any additional frustration :-X
What use is it fighting on a forum,Nao does a great job with his mods,there's no doubt about that,everyone gets a little heated at times,that's understandable,i think if both of you don't like each other then just don't reply or write messages aimed towards each other.Also on the mod why complaign when Nao does all his hard work and does it for members of smf to gain members on their forums/sites with a great mod like Aeva and we are so lucky that he does not charge for it,i say let things settle and be men about it and move on,arguing won't get you anywhere.
Again, I am not the issue. I am speaking out because Nao is going to quit development of his mods over this apparently. I would have ignored this clown from the start but Nao didn't and I don't want to lose Nao's contributions. Further, this guy insulted Nao using foul language and had no discipline while a defender of Nao was banned temporarily. Its a madhouse. Is there a moderator team? Because NONE of this crap would have ever happened on MY forum.
Quote from: kingkingston on January 29, 2009, 07:34:00 PM
What use is it fighting on a forum,Nao does a great job with his mods,there's no doubt about that,everyone gets a little heated at times,that's understandable,i think if both of you don't like each other then just don't reply or write messages aimed towards each other.Also on the mod why complaign when Nao does all his hard work and does it for members of smf to gain members on their forums/sites with a great mod like Aeva and we are so lucky that he does not charge for it,i say let things settle and be men about it and move on,arguing won't get you anywhere.
^ ^ This.
Really I think the best option at this stage is for everyone to take a break from the subject for a while.
At the moment nobody is banned AFAIK. A short ban was put in place but was rescinded after further consideration.
In other words, currently we are relying on the maturity of those involved.
ETA: Really a few insults should not be the end of the world. I've copped heaps of them in my time. Sometimes the best thing to do is to ignore them.
TBH, its not as if there's been no action taken. We were first made aware of the situation on Tuesday Night, and I have been back in forth with both sides via PM since then. Now, note that there have been no actual bans placed.
I am working towards a fair resolution without need for banning anyone. To me, banning is the *last* resort in any situation. I see it this way: we're all fans of SMF, but we don't agree with each other. Rather than ban one or the other, its better to approach them diplomatically and resolve the dispute rather than see someone who enjoys the project be booted out. We used to ban for just about anything.
I'm not going to go into who's right, who's wrong, etc, because I feel wrongs were commited all around. But I assure you that the situation is not being ignored. I even posted earlier that the argument would not continue in public. Or does everyone have my posts ignored :P
And... well... I feel that the situation is between the two of them and the team at this point. Thanks for the concern, and I can assure you that it will be handled :)
I have had no contact from you and only one response from a mod for my 2 or 3 reports and multiple posts on this matter. I am glad a settlement is being negotiated.
To be fair, some of the discussion was in the Charter Member boards so you would not have had access to that. It has been discussed though.
Like i said, the situation is between Nao, @sh, and myself at this point, as is only fair so that we can have a fair and unbiased resolution.
I do not intend to take one side or another in the situation.
Like i said, appreciate the concern though :)
Peace is good. And, for everyone to consider especially my friend Nao:
"Develop the mind of equilibrium. You will always be getting praise and blame, but do not let either affect the poise of the mind: follow the calmness, the absence of pride."
Sutta Nipata
Quote from: metallica48423 on January 29, 2009, 07:57:42 PM
TBH, its not as if there's been no action taken. We were first made aware of the situation on Tuesday Night, and I have been back in forth with both sides via PM since then. Now, note that there have been no actual bans placed.
I am working towards a fair resolution without need for banning anyone. To me, banning is the *last* resort in any situation. I see it this way: we're all fans of SMF, but we don't agree with each other. Rather than ban one or the other, its better to approach them diplomatically and resolve the dispute rather than see someone who enjoys the project be booted out. We used to ban for just about anything.
I'm not going to go into who's right, who's wrong, etc, because I feel wrongs were commited all around. But I assure you that the situation is not being ignored. I even posted earlier that the argument would not continue in public. Or does everyone have my posts ignored :P
And... well... I feel that the situation is between the two of them and the team at this point. Thanks for the concern, and I can assure you that it will be handled :)
Totally agree and satisfied of this.
good management of the case. ;) with a good issue i hope....
beers and bbq sound good ? with this heat i need a beer
Quote from: kingkingston on January 30, 2009, 12:37:58 AM
beers and bbq sound good ? with this heat i need a beer
Heat?? Heat??? its 6c in England right now... :(
Nao is a rational person, I find it very hard to believe that he would consider stopping development on any of his mods based on how one user has treated him. Nao's not a little girl, he doesn't need this situation being exagerated and then for all of us to give him group hugs.
Well, thick skins are good and I am all for it. But, this was Nao's last post I believe, "I've sent an official protest to Metallica. In case you don't see me again, ask him why, he'll know. See ya on another planet, guys. Or another website. " So, I think he was pretty upset. Hopefully, the mods can negotiate peace.
I don't want that Nao leave... :'(
He do a very good support for AEVA and SMF Media Gallery...
This is a request to please let this topic die. The situation is only so large because of those on the outside that keep provoking those actually involved. It's between Nao and @sh only, no one else.
The next person I see post on this topic will get a 2 day post ban. I don't care if it is to support this post of mine, to stir up the pot, or just to be a sarcastic fool. This is beyond who is right or wrong, it's causing a huge disturbance in the community. You brought the staff into the dispute, now you have to deal with it.
Once again, the next poster gets a two day post ban.
Edit: Obviously, that didn't work out.
This topic is still open and while it is open I should have the right to post in it. If you want to officially end this public discussion then lock the topic.
And yes I did just post to intentionally get banned for doing nothing wrong, it's too tempting. However, what I said above is the truth.
Lock the thread and stop the threats.
yeh thats prob best ... thread locked
Quote from: weightman on January 29, 2009, 07:37:15 PM
Further, this guy insulted Nao using foul language and had no discipline while a defender of Nao was banned temporarily. Its a madhouse. Is there a moderator team? Because NONE of this crap would have ever happened on MY forum.
I have to add that placing LinK187 (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=145625) on post-moderation was actually my fault and had nothing to do with the SMF Team. I saw that they were open reports and didn't have much time to analyse them, seeing that he had used some offensive language, I post-banned him without a second thought (yeah, it was my fault). I have sent him an apology PM.
Edit: Grammar
-[n3rve]
Guys, sorry if I'm a bit melodramatic in this post... It's how I am. Both demoniac and cheesy. I'm a Big Mac from Hell. I'm "Le" Big Mac from Hell. (Thanks Quentin.) Also, I thought it's best to post all this here instead of somewhere else. At some point you can move the topic somewhere less public.
Quote from: [n3rve] on January 30, 2009, 02:13:32 PM
I have to add that placing LinK187 (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=145625) on post-moderation was actually my fault and had nothing to do with the SMF Team. I saw that they were open reports and didn't have much time to analyse them, seeing that he had used some offensive language, I post-banned him without a second thought (yeah, it was my fault). I have sent him an apology PM.
Then, as a second or third thought, why didn't you punish @sh upon my request? I *did* report his message in the end.
What did he do to deserve this level of attention (or non-attention)?
I may be a demon or something, and I'm not asking for a group of minions, but I think my hard work deserves me some credit and some respect. This is the very first time in a year and a half here that I'm getting insulted. This could have happened before, this could have never happened. It happened this week, that's how things are. What matters here, is that if I was angry (and I still am, even after taking a 24 hour break from this), it was for a good reason. And the reason is still here.
I don't care what people think about me if they're not using my work. But @sh is using both Aeva and SMG and praising SMG, and still, he thinks it's good practice to insult me. 4 times in the same post. And no one seems to care. No one deleted his post. No one from the team posted to say, "hey, be a little more respectful of Nao, he may be grumpy from time to time, maybe even annoying, but he's an honest guy. Sometimes he's a bit misleaded, on the loose, but he certainly doesn't owe you anything, so if you're not happy with him, just ignore him and go somewhere else."
All in all, I don't know what I felt most humiliated by -- whether it be @sh's original insults, or the fact that no one except from a few regular users cared to raise their voice and say the words that would have made me feel better. Even worse, a moderator actually took it upon themselves to make sure a beta tester would shut up. I felt that as a slap in the face. I've read this topic yes, now I know it wasn't, but it won't change the fact that it was painful to me, when it happened. I talked with my heart back them. Now I try to talk with my brain, but they both have the same things to say apparently. A year and a half of involvement in the SMF community. Unpaid work, full time. Including most weekends. The only thing I was asking, no, hoping for, was respect.
@sh refuses to apologize? That means he meant those bad wards, right? So if the team doesn't do anything about it, it means they'd rather lose their "valuable assets" than being accused of banning end-users. How valuable am I, or rather, how expendable am I? What's the point in the end?
Ban? That's the logical continuation. That's what I was saying in yesterday's post. "If you don't see me here again, ask Metallica, he'll know why." Because I say things the way they are. I don't smooth my angles. I don't have any reason to. I'm polite, but I'm not a hypocrite. The downside is that I have to accept the idea that I might be banned for what I say. Even though Metallica is a cool guy and does his best to smooth the angles all by himself, he's still only human and can take only so much crap from me. There's a lack of understanding here. Which is why I see no reason for coming back if I'm banned from here, even for a few days. And that's why I said, "See you on another website." I wasn't saying I was leaving of my own free will. I just said if I couldn't come here, at least I could be found at noisen.com.
Okay it's 1:30am and I'm supposed to get up soon (as a demon I've planned to eat many babies tomorrow, and they're tastier in the morning), so I'll leave it at that. Thanks to everyone who supported me, and to the team for such a great piece of software. See you tomorrow, or not. I need some sleep now.
So, the thread isn't locked and we are allowed to post, despite the threat? Or am I now going to be banned? Its tough to understand what is going on with the total incompetence of the moderation system here. Great software and great community but just terrible moderating.
I hope you guys get it together and solve this matter to Nao's satisfaction since his value is very large to many of your users. I seriously doubt you would allow the kind of disrespectful, foul insults, and taunting to the SMF software developers as Nao. I would also add @sh PM'd me unsolicated with some long message of garbage. I asked him to please not PM me again and he did anyway with some insults. I don't care but this guy is obviously a troll and if Nao cares enough to stop development on his mods, then I care because I want his work.
Happy Friday.
can you please report said pm's? cant do much moderating of pms without a report. we dont go through our members pms. privacy and all that good stuff.
Yes, I will report them though they are of no consequence to me beyond the evidence to support Nao. You guys need some help moderating, need to make some serious changes to make sure this useless and silly drama does not occur again.
thanks.
with all due respect, weightman, we do not just ban someone right off for being disrespectful. its been made quite clear to both sides that such behavior wont be tolerated. first occurence normally is a warning, which has occured. second instance is usually a week long post ban. then full ban. look back at prior situations for reference. banning is always the last resort. always. nao has made a great impact on beta testing and mod developments, for sure. the only problem thats occured is the lull of a day before first contact was made on it. and that was my misunderstanding. ill take the blame on that. aside from that procedure was followed.
With a board this size and the amount of work that goes into it I feel that the moderating of such a forum must be one huge task. Considering all I feel that the moderators did the best they could have at the time. The approach of trying to solve it in private is the best way to got however unfortunately in this case it did not seem to work.
sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt, regardless if it comes back itll be taken further. we dont need it here.
anyhow, nao and dragooon have both requested the issue be cleansed from the topic. and so i shall be when i get back to a computer.
Quoteanyhow, nao and dragooon have both requested the issue be cleansed from the topic.
Whatever works. I do not care about any of this beyond keeping the developer happy and working. I think some of my points have been missed but so is life.
Happy Friday.
Apparently the topic was unlocked based on the fact that I prefer people involved voluntarily calm down. It was in my mind that I would allow people to post, but they would know such consequences and could make a judgment on if they felt it was important enough to risk such a thing. After all, there are many things people aren't supposed to do, but can do if they wish to deal with the consequences.
However, since it appears people can't calm down or make good value judgments, I have rescinded the bans issued and am locking the topic. Hopefully it will stay that way.
Here is the basic layout of the situation as I understand it based on the rather large number of topics started over it:
- @sh asked about a feature for the SMG modification and got a sarcastic reply
- As the Internet is serious business, @sh replied insulting said mod author
- Said author shot back with an insult (somewhat justified)
- Other people got involved and started fighting and taking sides
- At least one post by one of the non-involved arguers was reported and a team member took action based on language used without looking at surrounding context. Hey, they made a bit of a mistake by not investigating the situation fully. The team is human, get over it.
- Other people started multiple topics about this whole issue and stirred up more there by demanding the immediate banning of a member who decided to finally be quiet.
- People remain up in arms despite being told it's a private issue and shouldn't involve the team more than the team trying to keep the argument from causing chaos for those trying to actually get help.
I think that's about right. This issue has been blown out of proportion and the lynch mobs aren't helping to fix things. In fact, it's pushed a valuable contributor to get really frustrated.
I have a suggestion for people next time. Instead of starting up a fight, why not just report the first problem post with a quick description of what is going on and let the problem be handled? This isn't Fight Club, this isn't chaos, and it certainly isn't madness (no, it's not Sparta either).
So, this topic is now locked. If you have an issue with me doing that, feel free to send me a PM and insult me, or start a topic about how bad of a person I am. We already lost one member because I was too busy with my day job to reply to their e-mail over the ban I issued. I don't think you could do anything else worse.