think its about time a notification is placed on the pm box that states something like
Has this member invited you to pm for support? if not then please post on the forum for support in the relevant board/topic
i know im not the only person that gets pm's asking for support, i dont mind pm's relating to my work but when i get pm's relating to installing mods or fixing themes when the person hasnt even posted to the mod or theme author gets annoying
i feel people who pm for support are selfish and pm for support only benefits them and not others which is what a support forum is about, helping everyone, a fix for someones issue can help many others but asking for that fix in private just helps the person pm'in
Adding my second to this idea.
Have to say, +1 to this.
Gotta agree with this.
I use to get PMs but after I put the message in my sig, I stopped getting them.
I've tried various tactics, and still they keep coming...
Quote from: stikkki on November 07, 2009, 08:11:40 AM
<snipped>i feel people who pm for support are selfish and pm for support only benefits them and not others which is what a support forum is about, helping everyone, a fix for someones issue can help many others but asking for that fix in private just helps the person pm'in
I disagree. I was a support member for Invisionboard several years ago and more recently a community supporter of phpBB, and my philosophy is to help people, period. I do not qualify that help by mandating it can only happen in such and such format. I've helped people via PM, email, IM and IRC. There are many perfectly legitimate reasons why some people may choose to request help privately, labeling them as *selfish* is incredibly narrow minded IMO. Does troubleshooting a problem with a user tend to benefit other users, sure many times it can, but not necessarily in every case. If you do not wish to receive unsolicited PM's then I would suggest you put that in your sig and take the high road, just ignore any that you receive. If you make it public knowledge (via your signature) that you do not provide private help that is really all you can do, asking for the software to be modified to add extraneous text that applies only to a % of people creating a PM is a ridiculous idea. You are saying that it is ok to display that message to all PM senders regardless of their intent in creating a new PM, which is silly. :P Plastering a disclaimer in any available white space is not going to make it more effective.
Speaking AS a former support member here, I used to (and still do) get PMs requesting support when the main forum would be preferable, since then the answer is shared for anyone who may encounter it again in the future.
The issue isn't so much PM support, it's *unsolicited* PM support. People that send PMs don't tend to read signatures; as I've experienced over the last 6 months with a variety of techniques to experiment.
I gave up on messages in my sig. Now I just delete them without comment.
Quote from: Arantor on November 07, 2009, 01:28:33 PM
The issue isn't so much PM support, it's *unsolicited* PM support. People that send PMs don't tend to read signatures; as I've experienced over the last 6 months with a variety of techniques to experiment.
And yet you think placing the same text in the new PM box is going to be more effective somehow? <--rhetorical. ;)
I'm inclined to agree with Narqelion. The sort of people who spam pm's for support are going to keep doing it, usually without any punctuation or capitalisation and with lots of exclamation marks. Just delete them if you don't want to answer them. ;)
If it's right in front of them before PMing, it has a chance. But as ever I'm probably wrong about this.
I have a standard operating procedure for unsolicited pm's. If I receive one and it appears to be exceptionally idiotic I'll delete it and immediately block the sender. If it is not exceptionally idiotic I just delete it. If they send me a second and a third one then they get blocked.
I have to agree with narqelion on all accounts, and if unsolicited PMs is a huge annoyance for you, why not use the "Receive personal messages from: Buddies and Administrators only" setting?
Quote from: Arantor on November 07, 2009, 01:28:33 PM
People that send PMs don't tend to read signatures
Maybe they used SMF's standard feature to "don't show other members signatures". ;D
I dont think a fix for this can really happen. All you can do is just delete or ignore.
Actually, placing "*" in the ignore list works wonders >:D
Anyways, the reason behind no support via PM's is:
1. It's annoying as sin
2. PM's are private, thus another user trying to solve the same problem cannot search for the solution
Quote from: JBlaze on November 07, 2009, 04:06:44 PM
Actually, placing "*" in the ignore list works wonders >:D
Not in RC2 it doesn't.
I should know; it didn't work for me when I tried it here earlier.
Sin is not annoying. Personally I thoroughly enjoy it (although I must admit it does depend on the particular sin in question and the circumstances).
Hi, just wanted to add my two cents.
I am obviously not a mod author, theme creator or a support specialist and even I get PM's about how to do this or that. I tell them politely to use the support thread in which they need help in.
I'm not even exactly qualified to help others with SMF, but simple issues I try to point them in the right direction or thread. lol.
The main concern I would see with helping people through PM's is that people like me (Regular Joes) get asked questions and I can see someone possibly making the matter worse, if they don't know the answer for the person asking for help. This could inevitably cause big issues with the member needing help and might alienate them.
I personally think it would be better if they just posted in the support thread and then could actually get the help they need from the SMF pros. Just a thought I had. Perhaps something could be done about that.
Quote from: Arantor on November 07, 2009, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: JBlaze on November 07, 2009, 04:06:44 PM
Actually, placing "*" in the ignore list works wonders >:D
Not in RC2 it doesn't.
I should know; it didn't work for me when I tried it here earlier.
Well, maybe it has worked Arantor, since I've been blocked :( :( or was that intentional?
Well, just wanted to say I agree with the post, however, I barely get any PM's for support so I suppose that's why I don't care. But on a serious note, I understand why you guys have it in your sig.
Anyways, +1.
I actually don't get too many of these PMs, perhaps I'm scary?! :P
I like the idea though. Here is a mockup
thats right along the lines i was suggesting H
Looks good H!
Again, let me state I think it's a ridiculous *solution* and I use the word loosely. As several of the posters in this topic have stated it's not even that big of an issue, i.e. "I don't get many of these PM's" so why would you do something so silly as clutter up the new PM window even more than it is with a message that may or may not even apply depending on the intent of the person composing the message? Is the software psychic? Can it somehow tell that if I go into the compose PM window I am going to send an unsolicited PM to someone for support? Unless it is something that can be disabled on a per user basis I think it will annoy many more users than it *helps*, why would you want to annoy users with some sort of warning that doesn't even apply to them?
p.s. What exactly was wrong with the previous posters suggestions to either ignore the unsolicited PM's or use the tools available to block them in the first place? I am very disappointed that all it seems to take to change something globally here is one posters reluctance to use the tools available in the software and instead expect the board to change to accommodate their wishes. Guess I won't being using the PM system on this board as the last thing I want to see is a useless warning aimed at the very people who won't read it, at the top of every window. :o I freaking hope the software development process isn't handled the same irresponsible way, without taking more than a handful of viewpoints into consideration. :-\
You'll only see the warning when you create a new message. It is automatically hidden for replies.
Given that some people are getting 10+ PMs per day, this is a perfectly valid solution in my opinion. Blocking PMs from everyone makes it hard to get PMs that are not for support!
Surely if you're a heavy communicator you'll be able to contact people via e-mail or IM anyway!
It's not a solution at all. The people who send unsolicited PM's generally don't give a fig whether you want them or not, hence just as today when they ignore text statements plastered in peoples signatures they will continue to ignore any text no matter where you plaster it. All you succeed in doing by adding that to the PM window is clutter/fuglify it up and and annoy those of us who don't want to look at a GUI with content that doesn't apply to the activity at hand. Using your logic, why don't you just put the entire site rules text in there too while you're at it? Maybe if you put them in 20 other spots all over the GUI you can increase their effectiveness, except that's not how it works. In fact I would venture a guess that the opposite will happen. The more you tell someone NOT to do something, statistically the more often they will. :) There is a reason you can block PM's and set filters on them, I would suggest the software be used as it was intended to be used rather than relying on unenforceable verbiage.
If a message like that really bothers you so much, you must be incredibly fussy. However, there should be a custom profile field so you can switch it off
Quote from: narqelion on November 07, 2009, 07:36:34 PMThere is a reason you can block PM's and set filters on them
so how do you suggest i set the filter to block unsolicited pm's for support from the 1s seeking custom themes that i make that i actually want to recieve
having a small note at the top of the pm box isnt that obtusive, ive used a mod in the past that had a similar message on the post box and i dont remember anyone complaining about it destroying the whole look of the post box and making them wish to leave my site but it did make people think before they posted
any measure that can help prevent people pm'in when people dont wish them to isnt a bad thing, even if it dont stop them all but prevents some then thats a good thing
LMAO! Incredibly detail oriented per my job requirements as a software engineering professional. If you want to paraphrase that as *fussy* be my guest. ;) The fact of the matter is your solution is simply bad design from a UI standpoint. The only UI content that is appropriate for any particular window is that which is contextual, meaning 100% relevant to the task being performed. The text you are going to include is not contextual, it's not 100% relevant. The only time it's relevant is if the user is attempting to PM someone for unsolicited support, which you have know way of knowing.
The bottom line here is the issue of PM spam, not even necessarily support related to be honest. If you have a board wide rule against sending unsolicited PM's then it belongs wherever those rules are published not buried in the user interface. To the OP, if unsolicited PM's bother you so much do as I and many others here have suggested, use the built in filter tools available, ignore them or report them to the staff. Either of those three options will be more effective in the long run than implementing a useless GUI change.
I think you've missed a little of where we're coming from.
Some of us in this thread that are suggesting/in favour of it... ARE the staff. As a result we have been known to receive dozens, even hundreds of PMs for support when that's what the boards are for.
You can't just block everyone (in fact, you can't use the ignore list to block everyone; * is not an option; you have to use 'receive from Administrators Only' in the main PM area) because there are genuine times you WILL need PMs, e.g. sensitive material, questionable sites.
You also can't just block everyone who would PM you; because you just end up filling your PM block list. I've personally found a slightly tactless and blunt message with a pointer to the right answer (though, not TOO far to the right answer) is often best, if people do PM me.
@SoLoGHoST: The reason you wouldn't have been able to PM me is because I blocked all PMs. Also discovered the forum's policy about trying to delete accounts. Very interesting time was had by all.
point being too - why should we have to ignore these pm's, have to delete message after mssage that we never invited, prevention is better than cure as the saying goes
even ignoring pms is annoying as i still see them, i still see the same person send several pm's in a row because i ignored there first 1, i still have to look at the pm's as i recieve them, i dont know what they say till ive read them and they could be asking for a theme to be made so every new 1 has to be read - it can become frustrating and draining to be "harassed" in pm and it was mentioned report people for pm'in, pm's arent against site rules so what do you report people for, for using a system they are allowed to use
One thing I will say: if this means one unwanted PM is saved, it's done its job.
Quote from: Arantor on November 07, 2009, 08:41:37 PM
One thing I will say: if this means one unwanted PM is saved, it's done its job.
my point exactly
Quote from: Arantor on November 07, 2009, 08:18:20 PM
I think you've missed a little of where we're coming from.
No I don't think I have. You still think the current scenario will somehow work better if you are allowed to beat all users composing a new PM over the head with it. It won't, but sometimes people have to make their own mistakes rather than taking lessons from those who have already lived and learned. Go for it. :)
QuoteSome of us in this thread that are suggesting/in favour of it... ARE the staff. As a result we have been known to receive dozens, even hundreds of PMs for support when that's what the boards are for.
You are preaching to the choir dear boy. I have received thousands upon thousands of unsolicited PM's and emails and even IM invitations over the years, you can say don't do it a thousand different ways, in a thousand different places and in a thousand different languages, it will not matter. And that is my point. Posting a rule/guideline directed at people who do not read the rules to begin with is nothing more than an exercise in futility. Ever played whack-a-mole? Same concept here, you never get the mole you just destroy your lawn. Don't destroy the GUI trying to stop something you cannot stop. Set a board rule, enforce it. Users who get unwanted PM's have free will, they can ignore them and delete any they didn't ask for, they can even setup rules to manage them automatically afaik, they can report them to the staff so the user who sent them can get a warning. I have found that simply ignoring them or even reporting (people who do not follow the board rules) them to the board staff is far more effective at stopping infractions than bludgeoning every user over the head with the rules at every turn.
**edit**
and again...
QuoteThe bottom line here is the issue of PM spam, not even necessarily support related to be honest. If you have a board wide rule against sending unsolicited PM's then it belongs wherever those rules are published not buried in the user interface.
You can hide the warning via your look and layout profile.
Quote from: SleePy on November 07, 2009, 09:31:18 PM
You can hide the warning via your look and layout profile.
Already done, thank you. Thank you for the free entertainment though, still cracking up over this implementation as is it effectively rendered useless out of the gate with the ability to disable it. LOL. :D
Quote from: narqelion on November 07, 2009, 09:42:48 PM
Quote from: SleePy on November 07, 2009, 09:31:18 PM
You can hide the warning via your look and layout profile.
Already done, thank you. Thank you for the free entertainment though, still cracking up over this implementation as is it effectively rendered useless out of the gate with the ability to disable it. LOL. :D
Not useless as those who are have not read anything, most likely haven't setup their profile either.
by the very nature that you have disabled this message then you have acknowledged its there and therefore if you then pm me for support you have chosen to ignore the notice you have disabled which means you have deliberately chosen to disregard what are essentially my wishes to not be pm'd and the wishes of the smf staff for them and members of the site to not be pm'd without being asked to and as such then if people do pm for support then you have a valid reason to
a) tell them to F*$% Off
and/or
b) report them
Quote from: SleePy on November 07, 2009, 09:47:45 PM
Not useless as those who are have not read anything, most likely haven't setup their profile either.
:D Again, that kind of proves my whole point, the people like me who find it annoying clutter will disable it but we are not the ones who send the unsolicited PM's the ones who will just ignore it as is are. Priceless.
@stikkki, those were all valid reasons before the silly GUI change as you quite clearly stated your preference in your signature, except you are missing option C, which is simply to ignore them. :P
ive been ignoring them for over a year now but it does kind of get tedious as like i said you still have to read them before you can ignore there requests - if i recieve 20 pm's i have to read all 20 of them as they may be asking for a custom theme to be made so really i cant ignore them i can only choose not to reply to them and having the message on the pm box means that people cant have the excuse of not knowing its not widely acceptable to pm for support or "sorry i didnt see your signature"
Quote from: narqelion on November 07, 2009, 09:42:48 PM
Quote from: SleePy on November 07, 2009, 09:31:18 PM
You can hide the warning via your look and layout profile.
Already done, thank you. Thank you for the free entertainment though, still cracking up over this implementation as is it effectively rendered useless out of the gate with the ability to disable it. LOL. :D
Awesome. Gotta love it.
Read through this topic. I must say, the back and forth argument is quite entertaining.
All I can say is that it is worth a try. If it doesn't cut down on unsolicited support PMs, then it can be removed. If it does help, then it's a good thing.
/me smells a troll!
Oh wait... I just took off my socks
Quote from: JBlaze on November 08, 2009, 03:28:35 AM
/me smells a troll!
Oh wait... I just took off my socks
Wouldn't that actually mean there are atleast two trolls?! :P
Meh. Just a troll with 2 heads lol
Just found this topic and I found it rather amusing.
Quote from: narqelion on November 07, 2009, 07:14:48 PM
I freaking hope the software development process isn't handled the same irresponsible way, without taking more than a handful of viewpoints into consideration. :-\
I'm sure your viewpoint was taken into consideration. However, it is but one of many opinions, and among those expressed in this topic, is the only one loudly against this measure. Surely you can understand that 1 < Many.
Quote from: narqelion on November 07, 2009, 07:36:34 PM
All you succeed in doing by adding that to the PM window is clutter/fuglify it up and and annoy those of us who don't want to look at a GUI with content that doesn't apply to the activity at hand.
One of this site's primary functions is a support site for SMF software. It may be a small inconvenience to some who use this site as a typical community. But 90% of the people here are here for support, and this message pertains directly to them. And considering that many who give support dislike receiving unsolicited PMs, then it's reasonable to assume that this would be useful.
What it boils down to is how it helps the SMF community. If it bothers you so much, you can make a topic about how easy it is to shut if off and link to it in your sig. But if this helps cut down on the PM spam that is unsolicited support requests, then it's a good thing. And if that helps one person who actually searches, or one Support Specialist to
not get a headache today, then it's a good thing.
Sorry if your real world experience hates this and feels strongly against it. But practicality often rules where logic would fail. If we're going to be logical here, then you wouldn't be wasting energy on arguing against this, it wouldn't be logical to do so, since there is an obvious benefit that outweighs one person's vehement arguments.
Quote from: Eliana Tamerin on November 09, 2009, 10:09:22 AM
Just found this topic and I found it rather amusing.
Happy to oblige.
Quote from: Eliana Tamerin
I'm sure your viewpoint was taken into consideration. However, it is but one of many opinions, and among those expressed in this topic, is the only one loudly against this measure. Surely you can understand that 1 < Many.
While I might be "old" to most of the people here, I do believe I can still count....
Quote from: Kill Em AllI use to get PMs but after I put the message in my sig, I stopped getting them.
Quote from: AntechinusI'm inclined to agree with Narqelion.
Quote from: SverreI have to agree with narqelion on all accounts,
Quote from: SoLoGHoSTWell, just wanted to say I agree with the post, however, I barely get any PM's for support so I suppose that's why I don't care.
Quote from: HI actually don't get too many of these PMs, perhaps I'm scary?! :P
5+1(me)=6 or do you use some sort of *special* math here? ;) That would be at least 5 other people who felt it was not even a widespread problem.
Quote from: Eliana Tamerin
If we're going to be logical here, then you wouldn't be wasting energy on arguing against this, it wouldn't be logical to do so, since there is an obvious benefit that outweighs one person's vehement arguments.
I always speak up to express my opinion especially to point out inaccuracies, flaws in logic and what I think are bad and/or stupid decisions, and I support other people's right to do so as well regardless whether I agree with their opinion or not. I certainly would not tell them to shut up because it is not *logical* to *waste energy on arguing* when you are in the minority, but I can see so far that attitude is also in the minority here. I keep forgetting the cardinal rule, one which I must try harder to remember here. Thanks for reminding me not to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. ;)
Suggestion: Let's see how it works out?
Maybe you don't agree with the measure from your experience. That's fine, perfectly natural, in fact. But please allow us the opportunity to make our own mistake, and if it doesn't work, we'll try something else. And if it does work, great, job done.
In the begin I used to get a so many support pm''s that it became really irritating. But since I placed that part about to contact me in private only for paid support, the unsolicitated pm''s dropped drastically. I suggest you guys give it a try too :D Cos it seems like most people want only to get and when it comes to give, well let''s say that word doesn''t exists in their vocabulary :D
lol its in nice bright red on mine and its progressed from politely asking people not to contact me to a little rude and to the point..... i still get support pm's
but hopefully the new notice in pm's may help prevent some of them and the fact this thread is discussing how annoying it is for people recieving uninvited support pm's is then maybe that may help prevent it too as it is bringing it to light that people (as this thread as had nearly 1,000 views at this point) dont want to recieve random support pm's
Just now seeing this post again and can see this is a very touchy subject.
Just wanted to say a few things...
Supporting within topic/posts are overall better since it reaches the most amount of people possible, therefore you can reference this post in the future for the same problem (or close to it), where PM'ing for support is more of a drain since it caters to only 1 person and 1 specific problem, and/or need. So, the downside of PM'ing for Support is that you only reach 1 person, you can't reference it later on (unless you are the type that never deletes their sent PM and have it within your sent items folder), you only get help from 1 person (that is the person PM'ing you, if he's made a mistake in his/her code, no one will be able to know but you 2, so someone will not be able to point this out as easily as if it were in a topic/post), it would require more work instead of just sending a person to a post within a topic that has already been discussed on this, and also you can't search for it when searching forums. So people who are having similar problems will find themselves unlucky when trying to find an issue that has been supported by someone via PM Only. The only good side of PM'ing for Support is that you get 1-On-1 Support which is always the best type of support since it caters to your problems, but, even as some of the staff are very knowledgeable on certain issues, no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. Just my 2 cents, looking at the PRO's and CON's of this, seems that the CON's out-weigh the PRO's IMO.
But, hey, like I said, I don't care, if someone needs help I'll try. But I can understand the meaning behind Not wanting to support via PM also.
Cheers :)
Just a follow up redirect to those using the "support is always best provided in a public venue" argument: (Again I am new to SMF after spending six years with another product so I did just stumble across this while exploring the site else I would certainly have used it much earlier in the discussion) :D
How then do you reconcile this hypocrisy? <- Actually rhetorical I just want to see if anybody's head spins around or explodes. :P
QuoteWith your Charter Membership you are given access to a closed section of our Community forums, as well as a spiffy badge under your name showing that you're a Charter Member. Here you're able to discuss the latest betas, mods which haven't been publicly released yet, as well as provide feedback about SMF. You also will gain access to our priority support Helpdesk, staffed by our Support Team. This means you will get private, one-on-one help without having to post in the public support forums.
Seems I am not the only one who believes that non-public support is perfectly reasonable to request as well as provide. :)
Because invariably they are also directly sharing their passwords and credentials, just as they would be with a solicited email. That's really the issue here, not PMs in general.
Note also that they are receiving support on non public versions of the code too.
It's not so much that it's non-public. It's more that it's higher priority; they've donated to the project and as part of that, they have access to an area that the team looks at first compared to the rest. That part isn't so much that it's private; it's not private for the sake of being private, it's private because it's convenient for them (as they often provide security details in the HD tickets) and if we were to make that available to everyone, it would also more likely confuse matters.
Imagine discussing RC2 bugs publicly prior to RC2 being widely available. Any solutions likely wouldn't make a lot of sense or use to the public forum.
QuoteSeems I am not the only one who believes that non-public support is perfectly reasonable to request as well as provide. :)
Had you properly read the paragraph you are quoting you would see that the Charter members use the helpdesk, not the PM system
And the whole team can pitch in there. It's not totally private - since it's not user/team member, it's user/team.
this is ridiculous, there are people who dont want to give help via pm, i started a thread asking if a notice could be added to state that support should be requested on the forum, this notice was added, the notice can be turned off so it doesnt become annoying by appearing everytime on pm box when you start a new pm.......
there are different functions and notifications in the smf software that can be enabled/disabled so adding 1 more small feature that adds a couple of lines of text that can be disabled via profile isnt a massive inconvienince or disruption to SMFsite as a whole, its just another feature that SMF uses - ok maybe it could be seen as annoying to those that have used SMf for a while to see a new feature added where it wasnt before but you arent forced to endure this feature as it can be disabled
lets just give the feature a chance, see if it helps to stop unwanted pm's and keep support to the boards where it helps others and also helps catch incorrect or inaccurate advice - if it fails it fails but without trying new things then successes cant be found or achieved and as has been stated by staff here if it is a failure it can be removed
Well the noticed worked for me when I gave stikkie a PM.
It was big and red could not miss it.
I was about to runaway and cry LOL!!!!!
Frank
I think it needs to be fixed up some, as it doesn't align the To: and Subject: of the PM fields properly.
:( I can't see the message at all (even with the option off) but that's intentional.
Quote from: SoLoGHoST on November 10, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
I think it needs to be fixed up some, as it doesn't align the To: and Subject: of the PM fields properly.
The PM template got upgraded from 2.0RC2 charter > 2.0RC2 public. I wonder if it is depending on something else which hasn't also been upgraded (stylesheet change perhaps?). I certainly didn't have the same issue on my test install
Well attached is how it looks when I am trying to create a new PM to send to someone. Looks like it's a simple fix to me.
Quote from: tumbleweed on November 10, 2009, 03:14:37 PM
Well the noticed worked for me when I gave stikkie a PM.
It was big and red could not miss it.
I was about to runaway and cry LOL!!!!!
Frank
its not pm'in me u wanna run away for its spelling my name as stikkie that ur gunna get some BEEPIN BEEP BEEP for.......... lol