IT would be a good thing to have a new members FAQ board , with things like how to change the file permissions , how to ftp,etc,etc and so on .
;)
http://docs.simplemachines.org/ :P
http://wiki.simplemachines.org
yuck even that first page of the wiki looks disorganised, would hate to read any further :(
??? personally, I like the wiki page and think it is much more well organized than the doc landing page.
how can everything being on a single page be more organized that categorizing stuff?
same for me, Oya, I find wiki way more organized than docs, what is columns and rows if not a way to organize stuff?
but it's all on one page and it looks so cluttered, as opposed to having it split up the way it was before, much easier to navigate
I don't find it cluttered.... I find it useful, like an INDEX. Instead of having to cruise through 4 levels of section, sub-section, sub-subsection, and object, now, you look at the index and go right to the sub-subsection/object that you want.
It's the difference between a chapter-level ToC and and Index...
I still think it would make life easer far new members , you could put that link also on the board
http://wiki.simplemachines.org
just maybe give new members a helping hand .
new members need to have acess to these kind of links , instead of searching for them hours on end
it`s terrible as a new member you dont no were to begin , and all new members do is just post the same questions over and over again .
i have been coming on this forum for a few months so i am still quite new ,and the first i knew about http://wiki.simplemachines.org,was on this board ,now if i had have seen that on a faq board ,it would have made life so much easyer .
you could just have one single page of faqs on ,but split up into cats
;)
well mostly right now it's the same as what's in the online manual as linked at the top of the page...
well... see... the docs link has been there for years and has the same info as the wiki (plus the wiki is still being finalized)... and yet we still have people asking the same questions... including questions which have been answered 2 threads before. people are lazy. they want to be spoonfed. Most never bother to check the docs or the faq or to us search
Iam not lazzy , i just get so sick of searching .You find posts ,one persons says this and someone else says something different which does not help . its like you walk into an store ,even though everything is listed ,it is better to have some sort of guide to point out were everything is . Anyway this is just my point of view .Why don`t the staff of this forum put a book together ,so people could purchase it , that would make life dam easyer . SMF tips and trick , Lol .Maybe its about time that this forum had an online store were you could purchase pro templates ,books about smf,and maybe some coool T.Shirts,maybe be even offer support were members could pay a small fee . You well still get lot`s of people coming on the forum ,but for people that or running a busness it would make life so much easyer .If i had a choice ,i would have sooner purches something like Smf pro forum ,which came with pre installed mods and chat room and a few more templates ,if this was around .
;)
SMF is free.
SMF will always be free
SMF will never offer a "premodded" version, because then we would have to SUPPORT said version.
such a FAQ IS, and always HAS BEEN, available, in the docs link right in the topnav.
Do you really think that people would buy and read a book any more than they do the FREE DOCUMENTATION? ???
No offense to you, Joe, but we have alreayd done exactly what you are talking about for free, with the docs link (and soon even better with the wiki link)
Yes i understand your point of view . but times change and as more and more people join this forum ,you need to pay cost`s for bandwidth,etc , in say the next 5 years ,you over heads or going to be sky high. Having google adds on wont cover all the cost . Its a good free forum , and it can still be free far so many people . Members go off and buy pro templates all over the web ,so why not sell them on here ? . With some profit you could make this free SMF even better . Some off your staff maybe could be payed ,which would benefit all members .through support . Why not have a proper book ? i think that would be great .Why not offer people a pro SMF if people or willing to buy it ,and want it .
This is just my point of view ,
;)
because that would violate our charter.
Individuals may offer paid templates or mods; SMF, as an organization will never do so.
If people want to contribute, they can donate $50 and get a charter membership (and with that membership, they get access to the helpdesk)
I suppose there is not much more that i can say on this matter ,it does not make any sence to me when most of the profit would benefit so many people useing this free forum . Any members that write abook about SMF please put me down for a copy Lol
;)
I think you are missing the point of SMF.
Simple Machines is an Open Source Project sponsored by a Non-profit Organization.
Joe, why don't you write the book and donate the proceeds to SMF?
Quote from: Kindred on October 20, 2010, 09:42:05 PM
Simple Machines is an Open Source Project sponsored by a Non-profit Organization.
huh? did I miss anything?
just to elaborate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software
QuoteIntroduction
Open source doesn't just mean access to the source code.
The distribution terms of open-source software must comply with the following criteria:
1. Free Redistribution
The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee for such sale.
in other words, AFAIR, SMF cannot be redistributed, therefore your statement is not in accordance with the definition, and that implies that SMF is NOT Open-Source Software
yes, you have apparently missed 2+ years pf debate... :P
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php
^^ Summed up here.
ah, so you just change the meaning of Open Source Software just for your use? if that's no biggie, can you do the same with taxes, I'm fed up with the amount of money I have to give back, maybe just change the definition and we will be all sorted?
Ok then why do you charge people $50 to use the help desk (charter membership )? this seems so contradictive if you ask me
And as for the missed 2 years debate , the is no reason why there should not be a review
I am not talking about this free SMF ,i am talking about a new form of SMF .with a name something like SMF PRO
Linux is open sorce ,but they do have the sence to have a payed virsion to cover there costs
And as for people buying books ,yes thay would ,you would sell thousands of them ,a book is so much better than a doc
And Beta Testers ,you would not have to pay anything anymore ,As you did say Flapjack,,,I'm fed up with the amount of money I have to give back
And as for yourself Kindred you would most probabley end up with a full time payed job ,just a nice little reward for yourself FOR all the hard work you put into SMF
;)
Joe,
The $50 is a DONATION to the SMF project. In return for that donation, we give the donator a year "charter membership" and access to the help desk. It's done as a recognition of the donation, not as a payment of service. (the same way that your local PBS [TV Station] (if you are in the US) does)
and.... can I say this enough times? NO!! !!! such a paid release would violate our charter.
In addition, if this was a paid job, it would cease to be fun.
Why is a book better than a free document with the same information?
/me is honestly puzzled*
Flapjack, as I said... see 2 years of debate.
Okay, review time!
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 05:30:36 AM
Ok then why do you charge people $50 to use the help desk (charter membership )? this seems so contradictive if you ask me
Much like PBS in the US, if you donate at a certain level you get a gift. With SMF, the level is $50 (or about) and that gift includes access to special builds and a helpdesk interface for one-on-one help.
Here is a local PBS station's list of various "thank you" gifts that you can donate to receive: Thank You Gifts | KCET (http://www.kcet.org/support/thank-you-gifts/index.html)
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 05:30:36 AM
And as for the missed 2 years debate , the is no reason why there should not be a review
I see no problem with a review, but the circumstances haven't changed enough to really make one worthwhile...
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 05:30:36 AM
I am not talking about this free SMF ,i am talking about a new form of SMF .with a name something like SMF PRO
Some of the suggestions you make are problematic with this "pro" edition. Including pre-installed modifications means that the SMF team would need to get permission from each modification author to include their work in a paid compilation. This adds license difficulties at the very least. Also keep in mind that the entire team is working on this project on their spare time and adding a paid product with support expectations is a bit much to ask from volunteers.
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 05:30:36 AM
Linux is open sorce ,but they do have the sence to have a payed virsion to cover there costs
Last I checked, Linux (http://kernel.org/) had only a free edition available. Now, some distributions might have for-fee options but those fees are usually for non-open-source items like Fluendo codecs or telephone support. Those companies are for-profit and actually usually making quite a bit of money, by the way (RedHat is doing quite well, for instance).
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 05:30:36 AM
And as for people buying books ,yes thay would ,you would sell thousands of them ,a book is so much better than a doc
Once again, asking volunteers to go through a full publishing process is a bit much. Even with the friendlier presses like No Starch, it's quite a bit of work to demand of someone who isn't being paid.
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 05:30:36 AM
And Beta Testers ,you would not have to pay anything anymore ,As you did say Flapjack,,,I'm fed up with the amount of money I have to give back
As far as I know, the beta tester group don't have to pay a thing as they are invited based on their quality bug reports and solid testing of SMF releases.
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 05:30:36 AM
And as for yourself Kindred you would most probabley end up with a full time payed job ,just a nice little reward for yourself FOR all the hard work you put into SMF
Let's not bring that up. Last time it was suggested to provide the managing partner of the LLC with a small stipend for all the various work they did it was very... contentious... in the staff board where it was brought up. I'm pretty sure that was when accusations of stealing money started surfacing.
Edit: Added link to KCET donation gift page.
QuoteIncluding pre-installed modifications means that the SMF team would need to get permission from each modification author to include their work in a paid compilation
no they don't, see the smf license clause 2b
QuoteWhen a Modification to the Package is released, a non-exclusive royalty-free right is granted to Simple Machines LLC to distribute the Modification in future versions of the Package provided such versions remain available under the terms of this Agreement in addition to any other license(s) of the initial developer.
Quotethey are invited based on their quality bug reports and solid testing of SMF releases.
even ones who it seems haven't read the license and didn't know smf wasn't free as in speech software? (their admission, my inference)
Quote from: Oya on October 21, 2010, 01:31:13 PM
no they don't, see the smf license clause 2b
I won't debate this, but will note that the section has never been used or tried. At least some authors have chosen to use a compatible license (but not the SMF license) and this has been allowed, which might render that section as unenforceable.
Quote from: Oya on October 21, 2010, 01:31:13 PM
Quotethey are invited based on their quality bug reports and solid testing of SMF releases.
even ones who it seems haven't read the license and didn't know smf wasn't free as in speech software? (their admission, my inference)
Might I note that Flapjack was mentioning income taxes in his facetious statement, not paying for any rank with SMF? It might have been a bad example from him, but wasn't intended to indicate that one had to pay for SMF.
(Frankly, many of the volunteers donate to the project in some way or another. I know I spent at least $10 monetarily for a few phone calls to Canada over SMF privacy following their guidelines. I know I spent and still spend a ton of time on SMF.)
I undestand peoples concerns , lets look at the downside , 5 years time down the line , is SMF stil be around ? with more people joining this forum ,this means alot more bandwidth and maybe a bigger server , which amounts to very high costs
As for the mods ,SMF could purchase these mods out right from members .Lets not forget people well still be posting free mods on the forum also , I think it`s silly if you just say NO ,. Ok some members see SFM as a hobby . Quite alot of people that come on this forum do have a busness to run .,and i feel that these people would be more than happy to have some sort of SMF pro forum .
Also lots of member would also benefit ,through selling pro templates to SMF , or doing some coding . Peps can still have lots of fun with this free vershion ,which is great . Linux sell there software on disk which you can purchase .http://store.linux.com/ (http://store.linux.com/)This is only my view ,but i feel that if SMF don`t move with the times ,SMF might not be around in the next 10 years .
Kindred you cant just come out with NO when you have not spoken to to other staff ,I feel it should be debated with all members of the FMS staff and maybe even some of the members ,that do want this
;)
actually... as operations manager and president... I CAN just say no. (in addition this was discussed and rejected a LONG time ago... and as I have said, it violates our charter.
What more can i say not alot . ::)
In the next few years when SMF is no longer around . Please remeber this ,and think to your self you had the chance of a life time .
;)
don be upset, it seems to me mighty_joe_young, that you have very little experience on how things work in real life. SMF is not some small school project and it doesn't work the way you describe it:
QuoteKindred you cant just come out with NO when you have not spoken to to other staff ,I feel it should be debated with all members of the FMS staff and maybe even some of the members ,that do want this
this has nothing to do what team wants or doesn't want. SMF is a business like many others and is not ruled by collective nor its community.
as for your other ideas - I don't want to go into details but most of them are just naive.
and what I said about taxes was just sarcasm, seems you didn't get that one too
No Flapjack i talk sence ,and see great things that could be done with SMF .
Which you can`t knock because no one well take steps to try .So you don`t know the outcome .You can`t knock something unless you try it.
Thats wot every one said about Bill Gates when he came up with windows . Flap jack why should i be upset ? Who cares if it stays free . I have my own forum to run and website ,so i realy could not care less . I think you or a bit cheeky Flap jack ,and alittle out of order putting them personal comments ,If i put i think that your a @ob head,how would you feel ,please dont get personal if you make a post about me . There is a big difference posting about this software ,and posting personal comments
;)
My point was, is you want just the facts, that none of what you said in this topics makes much sense to me.
I'm done here, cya
I am not going to even comment on your last post Flapjack .
Regards
;)
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 02:58:48 PM
Kindred you cant just come out with NO when you have not spoken to to other staff ,I feel it should be debated with all members of the FMS staff and maybe even some of the members ,that do want this
Of course he can. As, indeed, any team member can. (Even those of FMS, whoever they are) ;)
SMF is free and it always will be.
Unless, maybe, someone offers us a few zillion bucks to buy us out... ;)
Quote from: K@ on October 21, 2010, 04:23:53 PM
Quote from: mighty_joe_young on October 21, 2010, 02:58:48 PM
Kindred you cant just come out with NO when you have not spoken to to other staff ,I feel it should be debated with all members of the FMS staff and maybe even some of the members ,that do want this
Of course he can. As, indeed, any team member can. (Even those of FMS, whoever they are) ;)
SMF is free and it always will be.
Well all i can say is if this is how you plan things ,then i realy do now feel that it would be best to keep this software free.
Kindred can say NO , that is his view . And i have my views ,that is wot makes a great forum having debate on topics ,
Regards ;)
Yeah. But, I don't mean to funny or nasty, your views in this matter are irrelevant, really, aren't they? ;)
Quote from: K@ on October 21, 2010, 04:38:05 PM
Yeah. But, I don't mean to funny or nasty, your views in this matter are irrelevant, really, aren't they? ;)
Then i could respond to your comment that you or not taking the views of any of your members into account . Rember with no members you wont have a forum or SFM , members views or very important
Regards ;)
Because the views of our members, on this subject, are also irrelevant.
As Kindred said, it's part of our charter.
Once again, SMF is and always will be, FREE!
Yes i understand you want to keep SMF free , i was only thinking about the futture of SMF ,its a great forum , don`t forget you have to take into account the running costs . If you can run this forum on peanuts good luck to you my friend .
Anyway i well end this topic , like you say ,you don`t give a monkeys about my views .
Regards ;)
I/we most certainly DO give a monkey's about your views.
In this case, however, you've been told that what you're proposing won't happen.
Yet, you argue (That's a bit strong. I hope you know what I mean, really) about it.
I'm just trying to say that it's not worth discussing, coz things ain't gonna change, with regard to that. :)
Completely off-topic, but, mighty_joe_young, could you please put the space after the comma and not before. Especially if you're going to write a book. ;D
That is fair comment , I am not argueing with anybody , and do not wish to argue with anybody
Regards
;)
Quote from: aishaweb on October 21, 2010, 04:59:41 PM
Completely off-topic, but, mighty_joe_young, could you please put the space after the comma and not before. Especially if you're going to write a book. ;D
Quote from: aishaweb on October 21, 2010, 04:59:41 PM
Completely off-topic, but, mighty_joe_young, could you please put the space after the comma and not before. Especially if you're going to write a book. ;D
My god you allways get them Lol were do these people come from ,anyway i am going ,Here read this if you think spelling is important
Don't delete this because it looks weird. Believe it or not, you can read it.
I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid -- aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.
Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas thought slpeling was important.
Regards
that piece of junk has been going around for a long time.... and it is BS.
I am an English teacher (amongst other things) and I am used to dealing with horrendous spelling mistakes... but I have to actively TRY to read that junk. More importantly, the majority of our forum community will NOT be able to read that because they are not native English readers/speakers, so their brains will not make those connections.
Spelling is important. Punctuation is important. Using proper rules for your language is important because the ones who DON'T use those rules are either lazy or don't care enough to TRY to be comprehensible. (and before you bring up issues like dyslexia, let me say that several admins on one of my forums are dyslexic and they ACTIVELY work to make sure that their posts are comprehensible.
Thing is... I read your suggestions. I responded to them and indicated why they were not a reasonable direction for this project. However, you seem to think that if you repeat it enough, the answer will change.
If we started paying for the ownership of mods, then we WOULD run out of money. We'd also have to support those mods (and believe me, we have a full team that works on supporting the existing product without even getting into mods!)
No matter what you or the others think, in 5 years, we'll still be here, providing a great, FREE, forum software.
(and no, most of the community members would *NOT* be interested if SMF was to go paid... and for those who want to pay, as I have already said, we have the charter membership to thank those who make at $50 donation.)
Quote from: Kindred on October 21, 2010, 05:40:36 PM[snip] and for those who want to pay, as I have alreayd said, we have the charter membership to thank those who make at $50 donation.)
gotcha!
lol... yeah, mistypes happen, even to English teachers. I at least try to avoid (and correct) my errors. :P
the flip side, though, is that there are people who would be willing to pay a modest amount - say $25 - for a more fully featured solution and/or more reliable support - whatever else you care to say about the support team, and this isn't meant as an insult so please dont try taking it as one, is that where they're volunteers there is a naturally lower expectation on both sides
if you have someone who is willing to pay for support and someone who is willing to be paid to provide timely support, it should be available as an option, and ideally more rigorous than the current arrangements
as youve said youself, charter membership is a service given in thanks for a donation; there simply isnt the motivation to complete the tasks so quickly or enthusiastically as would be there in the event of paid support
and contrary to your statements, you can have paid support options and still be a free, open source project - e.g. ubuntu
I am sorry Kindred there or thousands of people in this world that do have alot of problems with there spelling ,etc .I myself run a good web forum ,and there or people that do come on my forum , very clever people that do have trouble spelling . I myself do have alot of trouble spelling not because i am stupied , but in my case due to a bad head injurey many years ago.
Ok maybe i did go on alittle , to try and get my point across , i cant see the true logic in your view/s , But this is your forum and i must respect your views , even though i do not agree with all of your views .
Regards
Peter ;)
Anyway before i end up getting myself a ban ,i well say no more on this matter .
meh.... I don't ban people just for disagreeing with me. :P
and I never said that misspelling indicates stupidity (or the corollary, that proper spelling indicates intelligence) - because neither is true. I said that it (and I will add the word, usually) indicates either laziness or a lack of interest. (I'll also add, sometimes it just indicates that too much fast-speed-typing.)