How about rearranging the categories in the SMF Community so that Support is up at the top? Moving other stuff down the page should minimize the noobs' using Bug Reports and Feedback to discuss their problems that should be in 1.x or 2.x support boards.
While I'm here, how about a Spam Issues child board for both 1.x and 2.x support? There are so many topics covering spam that it would be good to clear out the regular support boards and consolidate them into child boards. Moderators could move a few at a time -- no need to rush to get them all moved at once. Likewise, how about child boards for mod install/removal issues? Those also take up a big chunk of the general support boards -- think of every topic about "undefined index". Any other topic areas big enough to warrant a new child board, such as Security and Hacking?
Good finkin'.
If you have boards for spam issues, mod install/removal issues and undefined indexes, you're going to have almost nothing left for actual support.
Note that almost every undefined index is really a mod bug.
you really think that will solve anything?
We've been through this sort of question multiple times. We have sticky posts that answer most of these questions. We have a wiki/doc site. We have search... and STILL people post the same questions over and over and over in the wrong areas as well as the right areas.
Heck, I've seen idiots post a question when the same question was already asked and answered only two posts down the index.
I do think moving the support boards further up than bug reports will help, though. Though I'd argue the news area needs to stay at the top.
Question: what purpose does 'feedback and discussion' serve? Most of the time its content is either really a support issue or a mod/feature request. Fewer boards will help with things ;)
Quote from: Arantor on June 10, 2012, 12:18:32 PMFewer boards will help with things ;)
(http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c014.gif)
We discussed dumping Graphics and templates and expecting anything, there, to go in the support boards. For one thing, people posting there never put the bloody version they're using. If everything went in Support, at least we'd have a fighting chance of guessing what version's being spoken about.
It'll also stop Illori posting mod reports about getting them moved. ;)
Quote from: Kindred on June 10, 2012, 12:08:19 PM
you really think that will solve anything?
Yes.
Quote
We've been through this sort of question multiple times. We have sticky posts that answer most of these questions. We have a wiki/doc site. We have search... and STILL people post the same questions over and over and over in the wrong areas as well as the right areas.
Heck, I've seen idiots post a question when the same question was already asked and answered only two posts down the index.
I'm often tempted to refer to many of the members of this community as "idiots", but I'll refrain for now. This is an exercise in
Human Factors -- if you present
plausible places to enter their problem up at the top of the page, that's where they'll do it. They won't take the time to search further down to find the
optimal location -- like a dog out on a walk who needs to dump a load, they'll do it at the first available spot. That's why you steer them to the best places by placing the Support boards first (or at least, near the top, after News).
Then there's the old adage, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Even if we make it easy to search, and put up lots of stickies, and put in a nice Wiki, and list dozens of equivalent topics on the same page, guess what? Most people will simply start up a new topic. Be thankful if it's in the right board -- that's the most you can hope for with most people. And remember -- members get yelled at for
not starting a new topic.
I've seen forums where you are
required to conduct a search first, before starting a new thread -- maybe SMF needs that? If so, the Search definitely needs to be made easier and more intuitive to use, and should cover the stickies (presumably it does)
and the Wiki. The default should always be to search the whole Community, and not narrow it down to category or board or topic unless explicitly requested. I wouldn't be surprised if many people attempt to search, but don't realize they're only looking in a small part of the forum. Search's design is defective.
Quote from: Arantor on June 10, 2012, 12:18:32 PM
I do think moving the support boards further up than bug reports will help, though. Though I'd argue the news area needs to stay at the top.
100% agreed (hey, we're agreeing an awful lot lately.... ::))
Quote
Question: what purpose does 'feedback and discussion' serve? Most of the time its content is either really a support issue or a mod/feature request. Fewer boards will help with things ;)
Yeah, well that's the whole point of my proposal... to encourage members to post in the appropriate place and not clutter up F&D with support issues and mod requests. I think F&D and Site Comments could probably be merged, unless F&D is meant for chatting about SMF and its direction
in general, while SC is specifically about this simplemachines.org site? The board descriptions could probably be enhanced.
I think that a number of Child Boards for both 1.x and 2.x Support would help the situation. Some members undoubtedly find the huge mass of topics intimidating and don't know where to even start looking. I wouldn't be surprised if some deliberately choose to put their topics in the wrong boards in hope that they'll be more likely to be seen that way. Cutting the general support boards down to size by putting common support themes off on their own may help with this.
QuoteI'm often tempted to refer to many of the members of this community as "idiots", but I'll refrain for now.
I get considered negative if I do that. Bloc even told me so.
QuoteEven if we make it easy to search, and put up lots of stickies, and put in a nice Wiki, and list dozens of equivalent topics on the same page, guess what? Most people will simply start up a new topic.
Yup, though it's always obvious if people have attempted to help themselves before asking for help.
QuoteI've seen forums where you are required to conduct a search first, before starting a new thread -- maybe SMF needs that?
I doubt it. What it would mean is that people would carry out a search, not find an answer because they've used the wrong terms, and create a new topic anyway.
Remember the scope of what we're talking about. Different people have different terms for different things, the odds of them knowing the right words to search for are surprisingly slim.
QuoteYeah, well that's the whole point of my proposal... to encourage members to post in the appropriate place and not clutter up F&D with support issues and mod requests. I think F&D and Site Comments could probably be merged, unless F&D is meant for chatting about SMF and its direction in general, while SC is specifically about this simplemachines.org site? The board descriptions could probably be enhanced.
Well, I'm all for people posting in the right place. But I don't think F&D is actually useful - most of what ends up in F&D is support anyway. Very rarely there'll be something of what F&D was intended for (i.e. people expressing how happy they are with SMF) but that could just as easily go in Chit Chat - it often does anyway.
QuoteI think that a number of Child Boards for both 1.x and 2.x Support would help the situation. Some members undoubtedly find the huge mass of topics intimidating and don't know where to even start looking.
I think having a lot of boards would do something similar actually. I also think that having the child boards you're proposing isn't really that useful in itself because most people won't post in them. Spam, maybe, but stuff like undefined index errors, people won't necessarily post in them, they are more likely just to go directly to the support board and be done with it.
In any case, having things like that gives a negative image about SMF that it doesn't deserve - they're mod problems, not core SMF problems. What I could see, however, is having redirection boards as child boards to the 1.x / 2.x Support boards, which point to wiki articles about these things.
Arantor whos bloc?
And btw i was about to send you a pm Not a support one but a regular one and it said you blocked my pm
Did you block everyone's or just mine? and if it is mine why?
As a relative newcomer to these forums and trying to find useful information so that I can customise my SMF I have to say the layout here does not aid searching for anything. That is compounded by often not knowing the correct SMF terminology for the issue that one is searching for.
There are two distinct SMF lines v1.X.X and v2.X.X. Yet there is only one small part of the board that separately identifies these. Everything else gets stuff lumped together. Often only once you read a topic do you realise it is inappropriate.
It would be a massive task to move all the stuff around, but ideally I would suggest there should be two main board categories, one for each forum version, with boards within that can deal with general support, themes, mods, bugs, installation, etc.
Seems like a plan, that.
Quote from: Mstcool on June 11, 2012, 12:01:04 AM
Arantor whos bloc?
And btw i was about to send you a pm Not a support one but a regular one and it said you blocked my pm
Did you block everyone's or just mine? and if it is mine why?
I blocked everyone's PM and I don't like receiving PMs anyway. Why would you want to PM me anyway, I have little useful to say and I'm certainly not doing any coding these days.
You could unblock me, for a few minutes, though, as I have a small offer, for you. ;)
Sorry, but I'm not unblocking anyone. I'm not sure why I'm in front of a computer at all to be honest. People wondering about my mental fragility would do well to read this post at that forbidden forum (http://wedge.org/pub/off/7461/the-10-year-sigh/).
Seen it, already. :(
Ah. I just sent you an email. :P
Feel free to bin it, obviously. (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c018.gif)
Oh ok Man
I didnt read all of it but i think you are having a hard life?
If yes i hope it gets better
Good luck bro
The problem is, certain people are too used to others doing the work for them. They are too lazy to read previous posts/topics or even do a simple search so they just ask the same questions again.
Anyone, even a noob/newb can repair, alter or customize their entire SMF install simply by performing searches here on this site. Anything and everything possible associated with SMF has already been asked and answered many times over.
;)
@ARG, was that in response to @movedgoalposts' post? The whole point of my opening this topic was that we make it too easy (on this particular forum) for lazy/stupid/ignorant people to dump their questions in the wrong category. Time is therefore wasted asking what version of SMF (and moving topics to the right place), and people get confused because a board such as "Site Comments" gets cluttered up with "I have a problem with my SMF installation" questions.
Yes, it is very poorly organized and could do with a good housecleaning. From the responses I'm seeing, however, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for anything to get done.
I appreciate there is a wealth of information on this board, somewhere. Indeed, just by watching posts made over the last month or so, in various forums, I've picked up a lot of stuff that might come in useful. But I am probably like a large number of users who come to this forum, relatively ignorant as to terminology, so know I have an issue, but not what to search for. The question I asked a few weeks ago regarding how the main_blog.png file actually worked was a typical example of that and it was not until an answer of css image sprites was given did a penny drop, and yet I had tried entering main_block into the site search and couldn't make much sense of the results. But then that I hope is what a community based support board does, it aims to enlighten those having some difficulty.
I suspect, but was not around here prior to SMF2, that the current arrangement of forum boards developed from when there was only one product line. Unfortunately the board has become confused with SMF2 being added and yet many users are running version 1.
There is also a fair area of overlap where one might raise questions, or find answers, as often an issue to the user might seem to be a general support issue, whereas others might think they are creating customisation or modding something, and others think it's simply a template issue, yet the templates being php are related to the code, which in turn is why you post in the support board. Does that rather muddled sentence clarify the potential confusion?
As a mod on a large support site with some 2 million posts dealing with cable TV and broadband services, I see the issues from a site admin point of view daily where you will always get posts in the wrong forum area, however well laid out the site admins think things are. What I also know is that once a site is large, even if there is a will to try and make changes, the administrative burden make the task such a headache it's unlikely to happen, especially if that means diverting effort from the limited resources available to support and develop the product.
Quote from: MrPhil on June 12, 2012, 12:21:28 PM
@ARG, was that in response to @movedgoalposts' post?
It was not a response to any one particular post but more in response to the general search issue. Although many do attempt a search, those that don't bother to search greatly outweigh those that do. It has nothing to do with proper search terminology but more of an
I'll just ask and someone will help sort of thing. It takes only an iota of common sense to realize that simple issues were more than likely addressed many times over but some people would rather ask others for help before even attempting to take a stab at it on their own.
These are the same people that trip over a log in the woods while running from a bear simply because they forgot that they have an actual ability to look where they are going. Instead, they lay on the ground screaming with the expectation that somehow, someone will mosey on by and help them survive.
To get back on topic, I also feel that the boards here can be a bit overwhelming, especially to those that are new to the community forum thing.
;)
Quote from: ARG on June 13, 2012, 01:07:39 AM
To get back on topic, I also feel that the boards here can be a bit overwhelming, especially to those that are new to the community forum thing.
And you don't even have access to the team boards!! That's overwhelming!!! :P
Quote from: Arantor on June 10, 2012, 12:18:32 PM
I do think moving the support boards further up than bug reports will help, though. Though I'd argue the news area needs to stay at the top.
Don't touch my Bug Reports over there!! :P
Less scroll for me is good!
I have seen the team boards, I did at the time go back and read every topic since 2003 (there were 105 pages then!), yes, that's overwhelming.
As far as moving bug reports goes, if it's moved as suggested, you might have to scroll more to get to it (or bookmark it!) but you'll have more real bugs and less not-really-bugs in there to deal with...
Just to rattle the cage a bit...
The problem seems to be getting worse. Site Comments and Feedback/Discussion seem to have become the dumping ground for every noob's questions. There are more "Moved to x.x Support" topics than real posts!* SMF needs to reorganize its boards!!!! Stop being lazy, guys, and move Support up right after News. This is a matter of proper organization and human factors. It should be obvious that the current layout and forum size is overwhelming many users.
* and please, a mod/feature to evaporate "Moved to" topics after 7 days (default time).
There was mention earlier that practically every topic involves a post asking what SMF version and mods. Why not make (and use) a mod that requires entry of the SMF version and mods? Or at least, new topics are partly pre-filled with a template asking for the needed information? The template could vary by board (and language). E.g., Site Comments wouldn't need such information.
I still think that child boards for certain common problems (spam, undefined indexes, etc.) would be useful organization, so that overwhelmed noobs won't feel desperate and drop their new topic in any old place. Certainly, if I were running this forum that's what I'd do.
QuoteThere was mention earlier that practically every topic involves a post asking what SMF version and mods. Why not make (and use) a mod that requires entry of the SMF version and mods?
Back in the mists of time something like this was put in place. The problem is that users put the bare minimum in to be able to get through the form.
QuoteI still think that child boards for certain common problems (spam, undefined indexes, etc.) would be useful organization,
You'd still have a lot of people posting things in the wrong place anyway. The solution, simply, is fewer boards, not different boards.
Automated removal of moved to topics is essential.
I like the idea I've seen over on Simple Portal's site that extra field are added in the user's profile so they can at least state the forum and portal version. Might be possible to do something in that vein here? Although clearly defining the board into SMF 1 and 2 sections would alleviate a lot of that.
Noobs will always have problems with where to post, since they have the least understanding of what might be causing their problem.
QuoteAutomated removal of moved to topics is essential.
And there's even a mod for it. It might need some work since I gave it away but it certainly works.
QuoteI like the idea I've seen over on Simple Portal's site that extra field are added in the user's profile so they can at least state the forum and portal version. Might be possible to do something in that vein here?
It's been done here. It didn't work, so it was removed. Part of the problem is that people don't go back and update it after upgrades.
Some people, for example, use their signatures for the same thing - and that's just as inaccurate and for the same reason.
users are lazy... they will either put the minimum details needed to finish the form - or, even worse, just make the first selection from the lists - which may be (will be) incorrect, and finally, as Arantor points out, they don't update the data when they update their system.
On the subject of evaporating moved notices... it's built into 2.1. Not sure if it's worth the bother to back port it.
QuoteOn the subject of evaporating moved notices... it's built into 2.1. Not sure if it's worth the bother to back port it.
Then install the mod I wrote nearly 3 years ago to do the job in the interim then ;)
Quotethey will either put the minimum details needed to finish the form - or, even worse, just make the first selection from the lists - which may be (will be) incorrect, and finally, as Arantor points out, they don't update the data when they update their system.
I would point out, again, that this is not speculation on our part. This was done here on this site some time ago; I read about it when trawling through the entirety of the team boards back when I was on the team, and it was rather short lived for these exact reasons.
Quote from: MrPhil on July 26, 2012, 12:18:40 PM
There was mention earlier that practically every topic involves a post asking what SMF version and mods. Why not make (and use) a mod that requires entry of the SMF version and mods? Or at least, new topics are partly pre-filled with a template asking for the needed information?
Requiring a fill-out of the version was a required thing back when I first joined. Most people just selected the first option in the drop-down so they could post. It didn't work then and it won't work now as SMF has gotten even more use by people with very little in the way of knowledge. It would be awesome if it did work, but that's just not the case.
If the lazy slobs always pick the first available selection, don't use a selection drop down! Give a text entry field where they cannot proceed unless they type in a legitimate version number. Be sure to handle various RC and Beta levels with varying capitalization and ignore spaces.
really?
I agree that the boards might need re-arranging... but on the input -- as we said, it's not worth it.
on the other hand, announcements, site comments and feedback are (very properly) at the top of the list because they are important for users to read. Moving them down would be a disservice to the users who come to the site looking for information. So, support goes under these.... but wait - laxy users just pick the first board to post in... which means that the problem continues.
The problem is not actually the layout (although moving support up may help some) the problem is that people are lazy and just post in the first place they see... the solution -- well, there really isn't one, unfortunately.
Yes, there is a solution. You put the boards they most likely should post in up at the top. Only boards that the common rabble are locked out of can come before. That's what can be done. Site comments and feedback are not exactly critical, and should come further down. News and announcements are writable only by a select few, and can come up top.
You must design an interface or page layout keeping in mind that most people are incredibly lazy, and will dump their load in the first place they see, rather than looking down the page for a better place. They will also pick the first element in a selection list just to get it out of the way. Members who insist on doing that, even after being reminded not to, should be banned.
well, I disagree with you.
Quote from: MrPhil on July 27, 2012, 09:31:32 AM
If the lazy slobs always pick the first available selection, don't use a selection drop down! Give a text entry field where they cannot proceed unless they type in a legitimate version number. Be sure to handle various RC and Beta levels with varying capitalization and ignore spaces.
Considering how often people get things wrong (2.0.2 is often mashed as 2.2 for example) that's actually going to cause way more frustration than there currently is.
And while I'm as keen as anyone to get people to post in the right place, beating them over the head isn't going to help them or anyone else.