That is the amount of time since the last new modification was approved (that I can see... I can't be 100% sure because the system sometimes puts newer files down the list for some reason)...
That seems a little... long?
Would it benefit the community to build a separate mod-site where "unapproved" mods can be downloaded and tested at the users risk? I, for one, have a test-bed and run all my mods through it first before installing it on my main forum.... and oftentimes unapproved mods install/run perfectly fine. How many mods are currently sitting waiting to be approved? Is there a back log of hundreds? Dozens? How about a little transparency? Perhaps a call for help? Just some ideas... these delays are, IMHO the reason many programmers are moving away from SMF or deciding to go the "commercial" route...
CoreISP edit: losing the caps lock title...
This is absolutely nothing new and was a problem even back in 2009 when I was a team member. The problem is too few people actually want to sit and review mods and play bad cop in kicking them back for various reasons.
A separate mod site as you propose has been discussed many times, and maybe it'll happen soon. It's... complicated.
It's really not the only reason programmers are going elsewhere and/or going commercial, remember it's been a year or so since 2.0 final, with the grand total of 2 patches since then, and that was after a 5 year cycle to develop 2.0 final. Most of the long-standing competent modders had long since already left, and there's not really that many good up and coming mod authors.
(edit: removed caps lock title)
Quote from: Arantor on July 16, 2012, 02:49:26 PM
This is absolutely nothing new and was a problem even back in 2009 when I was a team member. The problem is too few people actually want to sit and review mods and play bad cop in kicking them back for various reasons.
A separate mod site as you propose has been discussed many times, and maybe it'll happen soon. It's... complicated.
It's really not the only reason programmers are going elsewhere and/or going commercial, remember it's been a year or so since 2.0 final, with the grand total of 2 patches since then, and that was after a 5 year cycle to develop 2.0 final. Most of the long-standing competent modders had long since already left, and there's not really that many good up and coming mod authors.
Where did they go (aside from the obvious >grin<)?
I wish I had the experience/competency to help out but I fear my skills don't rise nearly to the level necessary to certify a mod...
I'd REALLY like to know how many mods are currently in queue... are we talking about a couple? A few? A dozen? Two dozen? A hundred?
Just curious. It would be REALLY NICE if these mods were made available to the userbase... perhaps with having to agree to the fact that they are unapproved at the moment and they may cause issues, etc...
(edit: removed caps lock title)
QuoteWhere did they go
Elsewhere. Anywhere. Maybe life got in the way. Maybe they got fed up waiting. Either way the result is the same: most of the talent is gone and unlikely to spontaneously return. There is new talent, but it does not have the same fervour as the old talent.
QuoteI'd REALLY like to know how many mods are currently in queue... are we talking about a couple? A few? A dozen? Two dozen? A hundred?
I think the worst I ever understood the queue to be was 50 or so, and that was early 2010 after I'd left the team, since up to that point I'd been doing the bulk of approvals.
I would imagine that the figure is probably in the mid 30s judging by what I've seen and what I hear.
QuoteJust curious. It would be REALLY NICE if these mods were made available to the userbase... perhaps with having to agree to the fact that they are unapproved at the moment and they may cause issues, etc...
Ah, see, I've always thought that the average level of technical skill on this site is a good reason to disallow it because people will use what's put in front of them, regardless of whether it works, whether it works well, or whether it's a pile of crud. Most people don't have the technical skill to weigh up whether a mod is well written or not, and rely on the information put in front of them - sign-off from the Cust. team represents a lot in that respect.
CoreISP edit: losing the caps lock title...
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 16, 2012, 02:37:50 PM
Would it benefit the community to build a separate mod-site where "unapproved" mods can be downloaded and tested at the users risk?
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=195.0
At July 17 2012, there are 5 mods on the queue, of course it all come down to how many mods were approved, never mind Suki been burned out, that kind of stuff just doesn't care right?
So, I deeply apologize for taking a few days to clear my mind and to work on my own mods, can't promise it won't happen again but I'll do my best...
If the queue gets quite backed up at times, and reviewers are burning out, it sounds like there's something wrong with the system. Could tools be provided to assist reviewers, perhaps by helping them to concentrate on what's been changed, rather than leaving it to them to go wandering through the code on their own? Should SMF be rearchitected to make mods much cleaner and less prone to unexpected side effects?
This would be a problem with any community-based project. Do other projects handle it in a better way? Is there anything that SMF could learn from them (architecture and/or review process)? You certainly want a capable developer who understands SMF in-depth to do the reviewing, but is there anything that could be done to ease the burden and speed the process, as there are so few of these valuable people?
QuoteAt July 17 2012, there are 5 mods on the queue, of course it all come down to how many mods were approved, never mind Suki been burned out, that kind of stuff just doesn't care right?
I can fully sympathise, probably more than you might realise, and for all the hard times I give, it's because I have been on the other side of the fence too and know what to expect, and know only too well what demands are being made. If people aren't toeing the line, that's what happens (and it's one of the reasons I stepped down 2 years ago)
I think the whole burn-out problem is catching, actually.
Quoterather than leaving it to them to go wandering through the code on their own?
Well, a mod package is simply a list of changes anyway.
QuoteYou certainly want a capable developer who understands SMF in-depth to do the reviewing, but is there anything that could be done to ease the burden and speed the process, as there are so few of these valuable people?
Other projects have either the same problems (with all the same problems and little different to fix it) or they don't bother with the approval process and just wait for people to report projects as unsafe.
Exactly... (last point)
One of the main things about SMF is that the team has always taken security very seriously.
This has been good for SMF, with quick security releases (but only a few of them) as opposed to months of insecure running and/or frequent required patches.
On of the side-effects of this attitude, though, is that the team vets each and every mod submitted to our mod site fairly carefully (at least on the initial submission). The team confirms that there are no obvious security issues with the mod (and there are any number of mods which have been bounced back because of potential security flaws) and that coding standards are subscribed to (so that mods don't conflict more than necessary and or performance problems are not introduced through bad coding)
Those of you who write decent mods probably don't see the issue, because your mods, when they make it to the front of the queue are frequently approved with only minor communication.
or those of you ******ing and moaning because you want mods available have apparently been spoiled because you don't realize how much effort the team has put into protecting users from potential issues with their sites.
because, you know what will happen, the first time someone installs an unchecked, untested, security-flawed mod and gets hacked? They are going to blame SMF... not the mod, but the software.
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 08:32:28 AM
At July 17 2012, there are 5 mods on the queue, of course it all come down to how many mods were approved, never mind Suki been burned out, that kind of stuff just doesn't care right?
So, I deeply apologize for taking a few days to clear my mind and to work on my own mods, can't promise it won't happen again but I'll do my best...
Instead of taking this thread personally, perhaps you could look at it as a criticism of the SYSTEM not those within the system?
Think about it... I had no idea of how many mods are waiting for approval (hence my question)... I have no idea of how many different people are currently approving mods (is it just you Suki or are there others?)... all I know is what is visible from the regular members side.
My criticism/opinion in no way reflects on the folks currently working within the system... at all...
Let me put some facts here so the next persons complaining about it can build up their complains with a little more information.
Delays are a 50/50 between the team and the mod author.
A lot of times a mod author submits a mod, gets reviewed and then the mod author just forget about the mod and never responds anymore, this caused a delay in the whole queue since every mod gets reviewed equally.
Sometimes the mod author takes X days to respond, then and only then we can continue with the process.
Sometimes the mod author confuses the review process with beta testing...
As you can see, is a 50/50 situation here, but of course you people only see us as the bad guy in some Clint Eastwood movie... I'm already get used to that, there is no point in keeping fighting against that.
This is one of the reasons I wanted the review process to be public, so people can see with their own eyes how thins thing works, to people actually participate on the process and make it faster and more, more pleasant to everyone. But I realized that people doesn't want to get involve, not sir, they only want to get spoon-feed.
They doesn't care how that mod got approved, they just want to use it. ****** the people who worked out 3 hours a day of their own free time so we can use it safely...
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 10:50:28 AM
Instead of taking this thread personally, perhaps you could look at it as a criticism of the SYSTEM not those within the system?
Think about it... I had no idea of how many mods are waiting for approval (hence my question)... I have no idea of how many different people are currently approving mods (is it just you Suki or are there others?)... all I know is what is visible from the regular members side.
My criticism/opinion in no way reflects on the folks currently working within the system... at all...
It's just me, so yes, I do take it personally.
Quote from: Kindred on July 17, 2012, 09:36:49 AM
or those of you ******ing and moaning because you want mods available have apparently been spoiled because you don't realize how much effort the team has put into protecting users from potential issues with their sites.
OK... i get it... inquiring about the "system" equates to ******ing and moaning? Re read my post. I simply INQUIRED as to why it had been a month since a new mod had come down the pike. Keep in mind... i wasn't/am not privy to how many mods are in queue (5 it seems) or how many people are reviewing the mods, etc. I simply asked a question and made a suggestion. Nothing more... nothing less... nothing sinister... and certainly not ******ing and moaning.
This is beyond the system.
Change the system to whatever you want, it won't change the fact that people just don't like to work, don't like to get involved, don't want to participate, don't want to do anything but receive.
As for your inquire:
Its because I got burned out.
There are 5 mods on the queue.
Only I am doing reviews.
I hope this covers all your inquires so we can go back to our normal routine of you receiving free and safe mods and me working o those mods so you can use them safely.
Thank you for your suggestions.
Frizzle... you seem to make a point of only reading parts of my posts... and misunderstanding those parts.
1- I did not specify any individual in my comment (There have been several threads started recently which were nothing more than complaints, the fact that I responded in this thread was mitigated by the fact that I did not address my post to you, but rather to "Those of you...")
2- I explained the specifics, as related to the SYSTEM at the start of my post... but you seem to have focused only on the second point in the second half...
However, all that aside, yes... your OP did come across as a bit b&m...
QuoteAs you can see, is a 50/50 situation here, but of course you people only see us as the bad guy in some Clint Eastwood movie... I'm already get used to that, there is no point in keeping fighting against that.
Not all of the people in this debate see you as the bad guy. On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for you taking up the mantle, because it is a hard taskmaster when it's just you doing it. There are 5 people on the Cust. team, one of which is on hiatus, one of which is a theme specialist, not a mod specialist. Why is it just you reviewing mods? If the others are not pulling their weight - which is what it appears to be, there is a very large problem.
But it's not a new problem. Back in 2009, the team was larger, and just as inactive. (Though, worse, certain members retained their badge primarily as use for advertising their own stuff.)
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 11:11:05 AM
This is beyond the system.
Change the system to whatever you want, it won't change the fact that people just don't like to work, don't like to get involved, don't want to participate, don't want to do anything but receive.
As for your inquire:
Its because I got burned out.
There are 5 mods on the queue.
Only I am doing reviews.
I hope this covers all your inquires so we can go back to our normal routine of you receiving free and safe mods and me working o those mods so you can use them safely.
Thank you for your suggestions.
Thanks for the answers... though you can take your attitude and stuff it up your backside...
It's not my fault you're the only one working on the reviews. I'd HAPPILY volunteer if there was something I could do. I do run a test-bench and could verify if a mod works as intended or not... but I would not be able to verify security issues, etc.... but I guess that makes me "part of the problem".
It is a SAD SAD day when users are AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS. I can see now what Illori means when she mentions this place can be a little "intimidating" for some. Luckily I don't give a crap enough to be bothered by the bad-attitude.
THANK YOU SUKI for your contributions and reviews... regardless of the huge chip on your shoulder.
Quote from: Arantor on July 17, 2012, 11:48:17 AM
There are 5 people on the Cust. team, one of which is on hiatus, one of which is a theme specialist, not a mod specialist.
Actually two are more theme-oriented (i.e. Gary and Ricky.).
Kays has been stolen both by RL (AFAIK) ...and Devs... O:) (oh don't worry, for SMF 2.2 (or most likely 3.0) it will be you Suki the one stolen by Devs! ;D)
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 11:59:43 AM
Thanks for the answers... though you can take your attitude and stuff it up your backside...
FrizzleFried I can understand everything, but please refrain from using certain expressions.
Quote from: emanuele on July 17, 2012, 12:01:06 PM
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 11:59:43 AM
Thanks for the answers... though you can take your attitude and stuff it up your backside...
FrizzleFried I can understand everything, but please refrain from using certain expressions.
Bad attitudes deserve bad attitudes. I'm NOT going to be intimidated in to NOT speaking my mind or asking questions ... by anyone. There is a huge problem if people are AFRAID to ask questions ... no?
Quote from: Arantor on July 17, 2012, 11:48:17 AM
QuoteAs you can see, is a 50/50 situation here, but of course you people only see us as the bad guy in some Clint Eastwood movie... I'm already get used to that, there is no point in keeping fighting against that.
Not all of the people in this debate see you as the bad guy. On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for you taking up the mantle, because it is a hard taskmaster when it's just you doing it. There are 5 people on the Cust. team, one of which is on hiatus, one of which is a theme specialist, not a mod specialist. Why is it just you reviewing mods? If the others are not pulling their weight - which is what it appears to be, there is a very large problem.
But it's not a new problem. Back in 2009, the team was larger, and just as inactive. (Though, worse, certain members retained their badge primarily as use for advertising their own stuff.)
I won't go into details but yes, it is the exact same problem, I know is not new and I know I'm just one of a large chain of persons who has been trough this same scenario.
@FrizzleFried You are free to ask whatever you want, just as you are free to ask and/or complain I also have the right to express my anger from time to time (after all, this is a forum), is not towards you personally, you just happen to post on an unfortunately bad timing.
Again, thank you for your suggestions, now me and my chip will go back to work for you, you just need to sit there and look pretty or you can contribute: Mod Development (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=195.0) is your choice :)
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 12:04:35 PM
Bad attitudes deserve bad attitudes. I'm NOT going to be intimidated in to NOT speaking my mind or asking questions ... by anyone. There is a huge problem if people are AFRAID to ask questions ... no?
I'm not intimidated by your bad attitude, but I'm not going to deserve you a bad attitude.
If your answer is bad attitude the only thing you deserve is a warning (for a start).
Quote@FrizzleFried You are free to ask whatever you want, just as you are free to ask and/or complain I also have the right to express my anger from time to time (after all, this is a forum), is not towards you personally, you just happen to post on an unfortunately bad timing.
Again, thank you for your suggestions, now me and my chip will go back to work for you, you just need to sit there and look pretty or you can contribute: Mod Development (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=195.0) is your choice :)
It's all good... water under the bridge... but before you judge me you may want to ask Nibogo if I've been any help at all...
I do what I can do. If I was more skilled in programming I'd be able to do more. As it stands I am a hack... and as such have a limited potential to help.
Perhaps my OP was worded too tensely... as I was under the impression there was a "team" actually reviewing these mods... (and since there is no I in TEAM you can't call it that with only one reviewer)... and worded my post accordingly.
Quote from: emanuele on July 17, 2012, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 12:04:35 PM
Bad attitudes deserve bad attitudes. I'm NOT going to be intimidated in to NOT speaking my mind or asking questions ... by anyone. There is a huge problem if people are AFRAID to ask questions ... no?
I'm not intimidated by your bad attitude, but I'm not going to deserve you a bad attitude.
If your answer is bad attitude the only thing you deserve is a warning (for a start).
I think there is a communication issue going on here. I was referring to Suki... not you.
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 11:59:43 AM
Thanks for the answers... though you can take your attitude and stuff it up your backside...
It's attitudes like yours that gave me and are giving people like Suki that 'chip' on our shoulders, and you wonder why we have problems when people start expecting anything to happen.
Remember: people like Suki (and me previously) are giving up their free time so you get to play with mods. Complaining about the apparent speed is not going to win you any friends.
QuoteBad attitudes deserve bad attitudes.
And you got bad attitude in response to your own bad attitude.
QuoteI'm NOT going to be intimidated in to NOT speaking my mind or asking questions ... by anyone. There is a huge problem if people are AFRAID to ask questions ... no?
There's asking questions and there's asking questions. Opening the conversation by basically whining about how slow things seem to be is not going to win you any hearts. It's implicitly judgemental about things.
Now, you've said you're interested in trying to review things, great - the best way to start is to get down and dirty learning PHP and then learning how SMF works. Do what we've done, then see how long it actually takes to do something like a mod review properly, and then - and ONLY then - will you be in a position to judge.
Just as you are not intimidated by our attitude, neither are we intimidated by any reaction you give to it. I used to worry about being nice to people, until I met too many people here with this sort of confrontational attitude, and I stopped caring, I just enjoyed saying *exactly* what I thought.
QuotePerhaps my OP was worded too tensely... as I was under the impression there was a "team" actually reviewing these mods... (and since there is no I in TEAM you can't call it that with only one reviewer)... and worded my post accordingly.
Nope, you were sadly mistaken. Pretty much forever the Customisation Team is one or two people who review themes, one person reviewing mods and everyone else carrying the badge without a good reason.
QuoteI do what I can do. If I was more skilled in programming I'd be able to do more. As it stands I am a hack... and as such have a limited potential to help.
Or you could do exactly what we did and learned how to do it.
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 12:12:05 PM
Quote from: emanuele on July 17, 2012, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 12:04:35 PM
Bad attitudes deserve bad attitudes. I'm NOT going to be intimidated in to NOT speaking my mind or asking questions ... by anyone. There is a huge problem if people are AFRAID to ask questions ... no?
I'm not intimidated by your bad attitude, but I'm not going to deserve you a bad attitude.
If your answer is bad attitude the only thing you deserve is a warning (for a start).
I think there is a communication issue going on here. I was referring to Suki... not you.
I know.
BTW, let's go on.
Quote from: Arantor on July 17, 2012, 12:13:57 PM
Remember: people like Suki (and me previously) are giving up their free time so you get to play with mods. Complaining about the apparent speed is not going to win you any friends.
Here is were the break-down is. My post wasn't a COMPLAINT per-say as it was an INQUIRY and an attempt to open dialog on how we can improve the "system". At the time I posted it I didn't realize the "system" was "Suki" and "Suki" only... I was under the impression there was a "team" in place...
Now, if simply inquiring about or making suggestions or soliciting ideas on how to IMPROVE the "system" constitutes me "complaining" ... well, so be it. But damnit, you (any anyone else for that matter) that discourages DISCUSSION on the matter by way of labeling people who simply bring up the freakin' topic as "complainers" does a HUGE disservice to this project...
Quote from: Arantor on July 17, 2012, 12:13:57 PM
Or you could do exactly what we did and learned how to do it.
...and I am... but that doesn't happen over night. March 2012 was the first time I'd touched code since BASIC on my Commodore 64...
If you'd like to help the process or improve it, feel free to start here:
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=195.0
Quote from: IchBin™ on July 17, 2012, 12:21:09 PM
If you'd like to help the process or improve it, feel free to start here:
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=195.0
Already been there... and have tested out and made a suggestion to Emanuelle RE: QUOTE TO TOPIC and will continue to do what I can...
:)
My apologies to Suki as again, I was under the impression there was a "team" involved...
QuoteThat is the amount of time since the last new modification was approved (that I can see... I can't be 100% sure because the system sometimes puts newer files down the list for some reason)...
That seems a little... long?
That is what you wrote. That's not an inquiry. An inquiry would be 'How long does it normally take?' - factual question, factual answer, no emotional loading or bias. It's a simple question.
But here, you're loading the entire question in a way that cannot possibly be answered positively. We're subconsciously wired to respond to that as if we're under attack.
QuoteNow, if simply inquiring about or making suggestions or soliciting ideas on how to IMPROVE the "system" constitutes me "complaining"
Except that, with the exception of the later paragraph of your first post, all you've actually been doing is complaining about the attitude you've received because you've riled people up. Show me the suggestions outside your first post.
QuoteBut damnit, you (any anyone else for that matter) that discourages DISCUSSION on the matter by way of labeling people who simply bring up the freakin' topic as "complainers" does a HUGE disservice to this project...
I'm all for discussion. Discussion on how to improve something merits discussing its problems, what they are, how they can be fixed, not complaining about the problem, or the opinions of the people who have been fighting with this situation past and present.
I label people that complain about the situation as complainers, clue's in the title. I don't label people as complainers when they bring something valid to the table, preferably something that hasn't already been round the houses many times over and over again.
But now we're getting onto discussion and improvements, rather than circle-jerking around, which means this has had some meaning to it then!
Quote from: Arantor on July 17, 2012, 12:26:32 PM
QuoteThat is the amount of time since the last new modification was approved (that I can see... I can't be 100% sure because the system sometimes puts newer files down the list for some reason)...
That seems a little... long?
That is what you wrote. That's not an inquiry.
Perhaps English isn't your first language? Not sure. See the question mark? That would be an "inquiry" as in... "Is 1 month a little long between modifications?" or "Does 1 month seem a little long between modifications?"
I supposed I need to recognize that English isn't the primary language for many here and try to word my posts accordingly?
BTW - A response such as "There's only one guy doing the reviewing so a month is well within a reasonable amount of time between mods being accepted." or something along those lines. That response = this thread being only a couple responses long... but instead the drama queens came out full force.
Oh, English is my first language, I do live in this little country called England, that's part of the United Kingdom. Just because a statement ends in a ? doesn't necessary make it an inquiry.
Consider the difference between:
'Is one month a little long between modifications?'
and
'How long is normal between modifications?'
Which seems nicer to you? Which seems less aggressive? Which seems, perhaps, more neutral?
Quote from: Arantor on July 17, 2012, 12:57:08 PM
Oh, English is my first language, I do live in this little country called England, that's part of the United Kingdom. Just because a statement ends in a ? doesn't necessary make it an inquiry.
Consider the difference between:
'Is one month a little long between modifications?'
and
'How long is normal between modifications?'
Which seems nicer to you? Which seems less aggressive? Which seems, perhaps, more neutral?
I guess I see very little difference between the two questions. Honestly. I am not one to "pussy foot" around nor am I one to get upset over "the way" a question is asked. I am direct. I won't apologize for it.
Here's the problem. The second question can be answered in a neutral, factual way, while the first cannot, and by putting it in a loaded fashion (isn't X too much/too little for Y), you're actually asking for a value judgement, and there is no way that question can be answered in a positive way.
Since you're asking a question to which there are only bad answers, you're going to breed bad feeling.
Imagine I asked you those questions, how are you going to react, exactly? Put yourself in our position as best you are able, then imagine you hear this question multiple times (once a month or so, every month for several years) and imagine how you'd react.
I'm a blunt sort of guy too... I rarely temper my statements... but I am also aware of the phrasing that I use (or at least I try to be so)
phrasing is critical, as is the question itself:
When did you stop beating your wife?
Quote from: Arantor on July 17, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Here's the problem. The second question can be answered in a neutral, factual way, while the first cannot, and by putting it in a loaded fashion (isn't X too much/too little for Y), you're actually asking for a value judgement, and there is no way that question can be answered in a positive way.
Since you're asking a question to which there are only bad answers, you're going to breed bad feeling.
Imagine I asked you those questions, how are you going to react, exactly? Put yourself in our position as best you are able, then imagine you hear this question multiple times (once a month or so, every month for several years) and imagine how you'd react.
I guess I am not seeing what you are seeing. I actually "answered" the question in a neutral, factual way above... perhaps it's a cultural issue? Perhaps not? I didn't jump in with "Man, this place SUCKS it takes so much time to get mods approved. There has GOTTA be a better way! This way stinks! Blah blah blah blah blah... " I simply made an inquiry based on my observations using the information I had at the time. Had I know SUKI was "the team" I likely would have worded things a little difference, but I didn't know... so I asked.
How would I have reacted to the question had the shoe been on the other foot? I'll repeat...
Quote"There's only one guy doing the reviewing so a month is well within a reasonable amount of time between mods being accepted."
Done... this thread would have been over in 3 replies... It also would have educated ME (and others reading) by way of informing us that Suki is "the team" and it would inform us as to the fact that with a "team" of 1... a month is well within reason between approved mods. See...
But no, instead the DRAMA unfolded like a bunch of teenage highschoolers.
well, as I said, you need to be aware of phrasing -- most especially because we ARE multi-national and multi-cultural and what you may see as "gentle inquiry" others see as "loaded".
(although I am from the US as well, and I read that as loaded as Arantor did...)
Suki is not from the US... nor is emanuele
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 17, 2012, 01:43:09 PM
But no, instead the DRAMA unfolded like a bunch of teenage highschoolers.
We live, eat, and breath DRAMA here. We're glad you have been a part of it. ;) Moving along now... :D
As far as drama goes, yes, I think that's fair to say. The reason being that the people who are 'dramatic' are those who are emotionally invested in what goes on here, having contributed a lot of time and energy in and get a lot less out of it as a result.
And a decent amount of that frustration comes out of those who do not understand how much time and energy has been spent and them having expectations.
@FrizzleFried I already answered you:
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 11:11:05 AM
As for your inquire:
Its because I got burned out.
There are 5 mods on the queue.
Only I am doing reviews.
I hope this covers all your inquires so we can go back to our normal routine of you receiving free and safe mods and me working o those mods so you can use them safely.
Thank you for your suggestions.
I already told you my rantings were not towards you personally, it was just bad timing. Let's just move on and get busy with our own duties.
Yes, venting my frustrations is usually considered by others as drama, I got used to that already.
I have no issues with going public with the amount of mods in the queue, is not super sekrit information nor it would lead to the fall of capitalism, just next time ask directly:
why you took a month to approve mods?
how many mods are in the queue?
how many people are working on them?
So I can answer you plain flat:
Its because I got burned out.
There are 5 mods on the queue.
Only I am doing reviews.
and we can all go back to our daily activities.
Are you counting those mods in the public board as part of the queue?
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 01:59:19 PM
@FrizzleFried I already answered you:
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 11:11:05 AM
As for your inquire:
Its because I got burned out.
There are 5 mods on the queue.
Only I am doing reviews.
I hope this covers all your inquires so we can go back to our normal routine of you receiving free and safe mods and me working o those mods so you can use them safely.
Thank you for your suggestions.
I already told you my rantings were not towards you personally, it was just bad timing. Let's just move on and get busy with our own duties.
Yes, venting my frustrations is usually considered by others as drama, I got used to that already.
I have no issues with going public with the amount of mods in the queue, is not super sekrit information nor it would lead to the fall of capitalism, just next time ask directly:
why you took a month to approve mods?
how many mods are in the queue?
how many people are working on them?
So I can answer you plain flat:
Its because I got burned out.
There are 5 mods on the queue.
Only I am doing reviews.
and we can all go back to our daily activities.
I think, again, there is a communication breakdown due to language barriers. All discussion since your last post has been between others and myself... none directed at you sir. :) I will keep your advise in mind though...
Quote from: live627 on July 17, 2012, 02:26:34 PM
Are you counting those mods in the public board as part of the queue?
Nope, non of them are in the modsite either.
@FrizzleFried no problem, but I'm not a sir ;)
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 10:58:12 AM
This is one of the reasons I wanted the review process to be public, so people can see with their own eyes how thins thing works, to people actually participate on the process and make it faster and more, more pleasant to everyone. But I realized that people doesn't want to get involve, not sir, they only want to get spoon-feed.
Not sure if repeating myself would help but I don't think the reason is they don't want to get involved. There isn't any systematic way of contributing to mod/theme approvals without becoming a part of team. Mod Development board will hardly help with that in its current state. I'll again say that allowing members of a group that anyone can join to view the unapproved mods/themes and providing them with a systematic way of providing feedback for the mod/theme (where you'll actually have a checklist they can tick and stuff) will be a lot lot more productive than a board without any direction. If you are really worried about allowing unsecure mods being downloaded by members of this group, you could introduce pre-approvals by team members where only security will be the concern. If there was such a system in place where one could actually interact with the Mod/Theme Site and the que itself, even I could have lended a hand with approvals every now and then. And I'm sure there are plenty of people bored out there but doesn't want to be a part of the team.
Quote from: [SiNaN] on July 17, 2012, 02:48:10 PM
There isn't any systematic way of contributing to mod/theme approvals without becoming a part of team. Mod Development board will hardly help with that in its current state. I'll again say that allowing members of a group that anyone can join to view the unapproved mods/themes and providing them with a systematic way of providing feedback for the mod/theme (where you'll actually have a checklist they can tick and stuff) will be a lot lot more productive than a board without any direction.
There is a group that anyone can join and that allows to download non-approved mods.
There is a check-list (see: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=477692.0 ) of things to check in a mod (nobody said it's perfect, if you have suggestions are welcome), they are even grouped in order to allow people to review few of them at a time and report back (it seems rather intuitive to me, but I'm part of the process, so I'm biased).
So, I see a direction. It can be improved with tools to support part of the work, with other ideas on the procedure, but the main thing is there: people can review mods and participate to the approval.
The only missing thing is a parser, but since just few people would rely only on the parser to review a mod (and nowadays with hooks you can't do that any more... pita :P) it's not a big issue.
Sinan,
Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I disagree with you and think Suki is right on the money. People for the most part don't want to get involved. They just want their mods/themes on our site without any hassle as quickly as possible.
The mod approval board gives explicit instructions on what to review for if you care to read the stickies. From which you can create your own checklist. The mod approval board is just one step toward a goal. Just because it doesn't reach the goal that you see, doesn't mean it's a failure.
I see repeating myself didn't work either.
There is no solution to this problem, change the system, change the persons, change anything you want, doesn't matter. Lazy people are lazy.
There is no panacea, certainly the community review system isn't a panacea, I don't know how many times I already told that (gotta put it on my signature!).
Maybe to you having the community so tightly controlled (to the point of they be able to only check some checkboxes rather than freely speaking their minds in a topic where everyone can see and participate) works, for me it just doesn't work and never will be.
Everyone thinks different and have different approaches to the same thing, if another team member or any community user gets a better idea I will support it and will offer my help on whatever I can rather than sit there and criticizes their idea, but that is just me, again, not everyone thinks an acts the same.
If everything I did fails, so be it, at least I did tried something and I don't/didn't/won't let people who always see the glass half empty to bring me down...
Anyway, people interested on actually help will always have my doors open, to the rest, I'm sorry but I will ignore them and concentrate on my work and those interested on help out.
Quote from: emanuele on July 17, 2012, 03:53:42 PM
There is a group that anyone can join and that allows to download non-approved mods.
In this past month there has been 3 mods posted in that board; two of them are by team members and one of them is a WIP. Are they all the unapproved mods waiting in the queue? I'm sure there are other unapproved mods in the Mod Site. If not, Customizers are burned out because of 2 mods, both of them by team members? What I am saying is, the approval process is going on in the Mod Site, not in that board. The effect of that board on the actual approval process isn't clear either. The board is good for developing ideas for the mods but I don't think it can help with approvals when it doesn't have any links to where approvals actually take place.
Quote from: IchBin™ on July 17, 2012, 03:54:36 PM
People for the most part don't want to get involved. They just want their mods/themes on our site without any hassle as quickly as possible.
Although the number of people who "just want their mods/themes on our site without any hassle as quickly as possible" is more, there are and will be people who will want to get involved. Just give them the chance and show them the way to do it, clearly, with the necessary tools. For example, let them be able to use the Mod Site like people with approval permissions can use, obviously with particular limitations.
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 03:59:10 PM
There is no solution to this problem, change the system, change the persons, change anything you want, doesn't matter. Lazy people are lazy.
There is a solution to everything. But I don't think that train of thought would help finding it though.
Quote from: [SiNaN] on July 17, 2012, 04:49:20 PM
In this past month there has been 3 mods posted in that board; two of them are by team members and one of them is a WIP. Are they all the unapproved mods waiting in the queue? I'm sure there are other unapproved mods in the Mod Site. If not, Customizers are burned out because of 2 mods, both of them by team members? What I am saying is, the approval process is going on in the Mod Site, not in that board. The effect of that board on the actual approval process isn't clear either. The board is good for developing ideas for the mods but I don't think it can help with approvals when it doesn't have any links to where approvals actually take place.
I'm sorry but you just don't have the right to talk about anything regarding the process.
You aren't a team member anymore, you don't have access to the team boards, you aren't here on a regular basis either.
You don't even care to read all the replies in here.
There are only 5 mods in the queue. And not, I didn't got burned out because of those mods... I got burned out from all the mods that were approved since I got purple (there was a 10 page queue at that time) the entire team tackle down the queue to only 1 page, then everyone just got inactive or went to another positions and the queue got back to 5 pages, that is when I got burned out, by reducing the queue to just 1 page by myself so please, before actually commenting on things, make sure you get your facts right...
Oh the joy of throwing rocks to the ones who actually are doing something from the comfort, mediocre, duty-free seat you are sitting right now... it's quite tempting, but no, like I said, I'm not that kind of person who just sits there to criticizes those who dare to try something new.
Do me a favor and come back when you have something tangible to show and not just words... contact me lead or the entire SC if you want and expose to them how exactly are you going to solve this issues.
This is starting to piss me off really, you aren't even here anymore yet you want to do everything at your own will... well, I got news for you, you aren't a team member, I am, you don't have any obligations anymore, I do, you don't have any burdens, I do, oyu don't have to worry about complains, I do, you don't have to sit and see how everything falls apart despise your efforts... I do.
If you have so many brilliant ideas, then
be a man, step up, become a customizer and
if not, then just shut up.
******... if I see another complain from you I'm off...
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 02:37:00 PM
Quote from: live627 on July 17, 2012, 02:26:34 PM
Are you counting those mods in the public board as part of the queue?
Nope, non of them are in the modsite either.
@FrizzleFried no problem, but I'm not a sir ;)
Pardon me, ma'am... (I probably should have payed more attention to your avatar)...
:D
Quote from: Suki on July 17, 2012, 05:14:49 PM
******... if I see another complain from you I'm off...
You can be sure that you won't see, as you don't seem to be able to keep the discussion civil.
Quote from: [SiNaN] on July 17, 2012, 04:49:20 PM
Quote from: emanuele on July 17, 2012, 03:53:42 PM
There is a group that anyone can join and that allows to download non-approved mods.
In this past month there has been 3 mods posted in that board; two of them are by team members and one of them is a WIP. Are they all the unapproved mods waiting in the queue? I'm sure there are other unapproved mods in the Mod Site. If not, Customizers are burned out because of 2 mods, both of them by team members?
You should very well know that *any* (even the simplest) of my mods could burn out anyone! ;D
That said Suki already explained the "how to", so no need to go deeper, just a note on the fact that as you should remember the mod queue is far from being linear so you may have 3/4 months with 2/3 mods per month, than a month with 25 mods submitted at once, so take a random month and evaluate the success of an initiative about mods in this period is not possible. Next year we weill be able to say something about if and how this board helped the mod site or not.
From the moment the board has been open on the mod site has been submitted 13 mods. In the current approval queue there are 5 mods: one is 2 years old (you may easily imagine which one is it), one was submitted a little before the board was opened, so from the list of mods submitted to the mod site from the opening of the board there are still 3 unapproved.
Of course you cannot expect that people will post immediately their mods directly to that board, that's also the reason why 2 of them are from team members (to "show the way").
Quote from: [SiNaN] on July 17, 2012, 04:49:20 PM
What I am saying is, the approval process is going on in the Mod Site, not in that board. The effect of that board on the actual approval process isn't clear either. The board is good for developing ideas for the mods but I don't think it can help with approvals when it doesn't have any links to where approvals actually take place.
AFAIU the point of the board is to check mods for approval (that's why I find strange a [WIP], but not a big deal) in an open environment and when checked ask the author to submit the mod to the mod site.
Quoteyou don't seem to be able to keep the discussion civil
Dude, the ******. You clearly have a problem in this. Don't do this. Just let Suki do her thing without jumping out and saying it won't work. Let it go, bro. Let it go.
I foresee this thread being locked. I'll be surprised if it isn't by tomorrow.
I will keep it civil when you don't come here and start attacking me and my initiatives. You get what you give, deal with it.
You don't want to discuss anything, you just had demoting everything I did, that is not a discussion by any means.
If you keep attacking me then I will keep calling you mediocre because, well, thats what you are right now, from your position it is so easy to talk and demoting since you don't have any responsibilities, you aren't working on the queue, you aren't even here, you just come here every month, leave 1 post or 2 and then leave again, you aren't even aware of all the things that happen on the forum, want to discuss with me? become a customizer, work as hard as I am, then and only then I will take your ideas into account.
It seems that you are only discharging your frustrations on me... well, please don't do that, don't blame me for things that you couldn't do back then. Not my fault and I couldn't care less.
Jesus... I sure opened a can of worms. I apologize for the drama caused... it wasn't intentional. I TRULY thought there was a "TEAM" of people working on the review process... while not specific, that is the general "impression" one would get when visiting this site and the mod site. I find it odd/disconcerting that only one person is running the show... and apparently quite frustrated with that fact. :(
Regardless of your contribution and position, you do not have the right to talk to me in that manner. Please choose your words carefully and read your posts before posting them.
Quote from: [SiNaN] on July 18, 2012, 09:20:32 AM
Regardless of your contribution and position, you do not have the right to talk to me in that manner. Please choose your words carefully and read your posts before posting them.
That is funny, I was going to ask you the exact same thing, looks like we finally agree on something :D
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 18, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
Jesus... I sure opened a can of worms. I apologize for the drama caused... it wasn't intentional. I TRULY thought there was a "TEAM" of people working on the review process... while not specific, that is the general "impression" one would get when visiting this site and the mod site. I find it odd/disconcerting that only one person is running the show... and apparently quite frustrated with that fact. :(
It really is a come-n-go situation, you can come and review whatever mod you want and leave when you don't feel like reviewing it anymore. I've been trying to help in the reviewing process, time to pick this up.
What is your mod? I might get to reviewing it now, if it hasn't been reviewed already.
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 18, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
Jesus... I sure opened a can of worms. I apologize for the drama caused... it wasn't intentional. I TRULY thought there was a "TEAM" of people working on the review process... while not specific, that is the general "impression" one would get when visiting this site and the mod site. I find it odd/disconcerting that only one person is running the show... and apparently quite frustrated with that fact. :(
And therein lies the problem. All three of the people that are really p***ed off in this debate (Sinan, myself, Suki) are three generations of Customizer who've all been through this, all at some point being the only person reviewing mods and all of us have been burned out at some stage because of it.
The reason why we're so adamant about things is because we all want what's best and we're frustrated that nothing that's been tried seems as successful as we'd like it to be. I really hope that where we're going to is a better place, because SMF needs its customisation community, though I'm fairly certain the approval process is only a small part of the problem - better documentation and more examples of how to do things would probably help a bit more, really.
/me has been the only lucky one to skip the Cust stage and go directly to dev! :P