If you could add like 6 month option, 3 month option/etc I think you'd see more charters, including me!
I think the length is as so due to the fact that some of the features exclusive to the membership are one time only such as forum installation.
Still, I think it'd be nice.
I agree. It is definitely something to be considered. Out of curiosity, would you still be interested in something like that if some features were not included such as the team forum installation?
I'd be fine with the manual install, I can do that myself, its mainly the support that I need :-).
You mean charters get better support than the main community? I don't remember when that used to be the case (even if, notionally, it should be)
I would like to emphasis that the charter membership does come with some benefits but those benefits shouldn't be the only variable if you are thinking on becoming a charter member as it becomes a service with all the burden that word represents.
Quote from: La Catrina on October 31, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
I would like to emphasis that the charter membership does come with some benefits but those benefits shouldn't be the only variable if you are thinking on becoming a charter member as it becomes a service with all the burden that word represents.
You know as well as I do that most people here don't care as long as they get their *stuff*.
Quote from: Arantor on October 31, 2012, 05:37:07 PM
You mean charters get better support than the main community? I don't remember when that used to be the case (even if, notionally, it should be)
I didn't say that, exactly, it's mainly what I read 'helpdesk' would be helpful for me. But still, other options would be beneficial.
You mean the helpdesk that doesn't cover custom coding issues? Or at least, it didn't when I wrote its replacement software :P
Quote from: Arantor on October 31, 2012, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: La Catrina on October 31, 2012, 06:18:12 PM
I would like to emphasis that the charter membership does come with some benefits but those benefits shouldn't be the only variable if you are thinking on becoming a charter member as it becomes a service with all the burden that word represents.
You know as well as I do that most people here don't care as long as they get their *stuff*.
I know, I created some drama a while back to make the team to put some words to make sure this charter membership isn't see it as a service, my attempts were futile though.
QuoteI know, I created some drama a while back to make the team to put some words to make sure this charter membership isn't see it as a service, my attempts were futile though.
How can anyone argue it isn't a service to be bought and paid for?
I though so too, it's pretty obvious the whole system is designed as a service but alas, the discussion fell under wording and perception and "marketing", things like that. I gave up.
Charter membership is not and never has been a service.
period.
the charter membership badge and access to the helpdesk is given to people who donate $50 or more to the project. It is a benefit given to donators. It is not a service. We do not promise anything (although we do make every attempt to resolve issues submitted through the helpdesk, there is never any promise of service)
And that is also the reason that we won't have anything like a 6 month or 3 month benefit... because then it becomes more like a service.
You can donate any amount... but for donations of $50 or more, you get a nice badge and some extra directed access to the team. If you donate $200, you don't get 4 charter memberships... you get 1, for one donation.
Quotethe charter membership badge and access to the helpdesk is given to people who donate $50 or more to the project. It is a benefit given to donators. It is not a service.
You pay money, you get access to facilities. Call it what you like, it is still access to facilities and services (and sometimes products) that are not available any other way. It's a service, and calling it anything else is sophistry.
I am not sure it is worth debating. It is either viewed as additional, complimentary access as a thank you for contributing or as a paid service. It is all from a matter of perspective.
That's the thing, 99% of users here see it as a service. This very own topic exemplifies it.
I see it like this...who else has access to the Helpdesk? I think it just might be charter members. Does that guarantee service? Not really, but it sure does have a visual difference on this site. I see it as a nice thank you to what we do here at SMF.
And Arantor, it is not Sophistry.... it is not a service.
It is a benefit granted as thanks for a donation... it is not payment for a service.
However the users may want to see it, it is very clearly stated
Quote from: from the charter page
We thank you for any donation you can make, and for donations of $49.95 USD or more, we give you a snazzy Charter member badge and access to our helpdesk for an year.
*shrug* When I obtained legal advice about doing something similar for Wedge, I was told that he was surprised you hadn't been investigated for possible fraud, calling it a donation when it isn't. But hey, that's your problem, not mine.
Did your legal dude do anything about it? I think Kindred's interpretation is rather valid and he plays an attorney on TV, or maybe it's radio. If it's not a donation, what is it? Do charter members get extra stuff? I think they do. I'd get a new lawyer.
Nope. I consulted about the legal implications of setting it up for Wedge, and his opinion was that it's not a donation, it's a service, and when I explained how SMF approaches it, he said that as far as he was concerned, it was tantamount to fraud calling it a donation when it isn't especially for a non-profit org. But he hasn't - and won't - do anything about it, he was just telling me what my options were.
You consulted a crap lawyer then I guess, lol.
For example, if you donate to a charity and you get a present in return as a thank you; that doesn't make it a purchase either. Total nonsense.
You donate to the project; you get something nice in return as a thank you.
That's not the same thing as purchasing a service. :) Not sure how the person giving you legal advice figured it is, but he/she is obviously very much mistaken.
How is it not the same thing? You're paying some money, you're getting something in return. However you dress it up, however you call it a donation, it IS NOT A DONATION. It is giving money and getting something in return. In any other country this is called buying something and thus a *transaction*, not a donation.
Guess you should sue the WWF as an example for fraude then.
Good luck!
Read their small print. They don't call it a donation as such. They actually acknowledge the legal consequences - and strictly speaking you're not purchasing a service out of it, are you?
/me does sponsor animals via WWF.
And again, don't Charter Members see Helpdesk? It that a guarantee of service? No, but is an extra benefit? I think it just might be. Wow, how this topic has gone astray. I need a lawyer.
And that's my point which everyone is trying so hard to avoid.
Does it say anywhere, that the CM has to agree to, that there *isn't* a guarantee of service? It's legally dubious to offer something - even when you don't 'guarantee' service - in exchange for cash.
Quote from: Arantor on October 31, 2012, 10:30:13 PM
And that's my point which everyone is trying so hard to avoid.
Does it say anywhere, that the CM has to agree to, that there *isn't* a guarantee of service? It's legally dubious to offer something - even when you don't 'guarantee' service - in exchange for cash.
You don't offer anything in exchange for cash. You get a donation and as a thank you present (so to speak to make it more clear) you get a shiny badge and access to a exclusive board. If you donate $50 or $5000 is irrelevant, you get the same thing as a thank you gift.
I'm not sure about WWF's wording as of late, but i'm quite sure they simply use the word donation.
But, to satisfy you, let me give you another example, also local to you:
https://www.ifaw.org/united-kingdom/secure/donate/uk-support-ifaws-work-snowy-keep
See the promo at the end for the plush seal.
You're saying that if you donate and you get that toy in return (and they do use the word DONATE), it's no longer a donation but a purchase for the toy. It's not...
You donate, and as a thank you for your generosity; the organization kindly sends you a plush toy. Same applies here; just we don't send a toy but give other goodies.
QuoteYou're saying that if you donate and you get that toy in return (and they do use the word DONATE), it's no longer a donation but a purchase for the toy. It's not...
Legally speaking, which as we should all know has nothing to do with how life actually works, yes it is still a purchase. Note that you can actually opt to *not* have the plush toy.
Also, local to me, except for the part where their international headquarters and website operations are based in a corporation in Massachusetts. Though even the local part is actually a registered *company* as well as a charity. Funny that they're not solely a charity. It's almost like they actually realise that under the law it's not just a simple donation to charity.
Whatever. You've all decided that you're right, I'm hopeful that I'm wrong. Let's just hope that we never find out.
I am hopeful as you are as well. And if you're dedicated to it as you seem to be, you can pursue legal action against SMF.
Great. Here I am outlining a legitimate concern I have, one that I see as non trivial, and you think I'm out to sue you. Thanks for nothing.
Thank you for seeing something as non-trivial. We are on the same page. What I am suggesting by asking you to take legal action is non-trivial as well. It's rather black and white to me. If you think we are defrauding our Charter Members, then, please take non-trivial actions against us on the words of your legal adviser. To me, you are blowing smoke. Considering you aren't a Charter Member, your legal recourse is slim to none. And yes, I don't think you are out to sue us. I think you might be libeling us though.
No, we're not on the same page, not by a long chalk. Reading what I actually wrote would be a great start.
You're suggesting to me I take legal action. I have no intention of doing such. I spoke to a legal counsel about a similar but not entirely the same legal situation and he was concerned that if I carried out the same actions as SMF that I would potentially be causing fraud. I note that he is almost certainly referring to the laws in this country, not the US tax laws.
I don't think you're defrauding your Charter Members. I just think you're being disingenuous about what you're offering.
Are we in agreement that this is the nearest thing to a contract about what is being offered for Charter members? (http://www.simplemachines.org/charter/)
There are items in there that are stated as *guaranteed* to be offered. To me, this suggests like it is not a donation gift, but a service that is being bought and paid for.
Also, the comments made that 'it doesn't matter whether you donate $50 or $x' are also incorrect, see for example http://nonprofit.about.com/od/fundraising/a/donordisclose.htm (not exactly authoritative, but should suffice as a jumping off point - and this is all going on the end of year report anyway, right?)
Maybe I am blowing smoke. It's not intentional. But for the trouble I have of trying to raise what I see as a legitimate concern - and for my trouble I get accused of being libellous because I think you're being disingenuous and that one person I have spoken to is concerned there might be a possible fraud issue, certainly if this were to occur in the UK. He's not sure enough to prognosticate about the US tax laws. But he was surprised at the manner in which this is being carried out given that the goods are not necessary of 'insubstantial benefit' from the IRS terms.
Nice to know how highly you think of me, though.
Quote
Are we in agreement that this is the nearest thing to a contract about what is being offered for Charter members?
No :)
Funny that. Not by a long chalk? Hmm. Your lawyer says that we are committing fraud. Yet you say "I don't think you're defrauding your Charter Members" Which is it?
Once again... we are not offering this as a service. We make no promised as to terms of service or anything else. We offer the BENEFIT to folks who DONATE.
And yes, this has legal standing in the US. I don't know about the UK or EU... but we're a US company and, according to US law we count it as a donation not as a service. (and BTW, we ARE a legally registered non-profit organization, we are just not a tax-exempt organization)
actually, I believe, per the state filing we are technically, a non-profit organization as a corporation.
Quote from: monster mashby on October 31, 2012, 11:22:16 PM
Your lawyer says that we are committing fraud. Yet you say "I don't think you're defrauding your Charter Members" Which is it?
You can be in breach of certain laws and therefore technically committing a crime while not intending to be. I think that is what he is saying.
That said, it might be worthwhile to review the Charter Membership page and see if it can be better worded to indicate that it is a gift given as a thank you for donating above a certain level, not a service.
Whether Charter is considered a service or not by SMF, rewording some of the Charter Membership page should be taken into consideration.
From a legal standpoint the following would surly be be considered Charter Membership as being a specific service for payment.
QuoteIf you don't have the time to install SMF yourself, one of our Support Specialists will be more than happy to do it for you. Just open a helpdesk request, with your hosting information, and your forum should be up and running within twenty-four hours. We only guarantee one installation per year with your membership, though are always happy to answer any questions you have about installing SMF.
QuoteWith your Charter Membership you are given access to a closed section of our Community forums, as well as a spiffy badge under your name showing that you're a Charter Member.
QuoteYou also will gain access to our priority support Helpdesk, staffed by our Support Team. This means you will get private, one-on-one help without having to post in the public support forums.
Now, I am not attempting to join the debate here but having a legal background I figured this needed to be pointed out. Simply changing a few words in the above examples would clearly define the difference between a "paid service" and a "possible privilege" for donating.
;)
And thats pretty much the only thing I was asking back then... make it clear that this is not a service in any way shape or form...
Doesn't matter if the team sees it as a donation, doesn't matter if our lawyers see it as a donation, doesnt matter if the US law see it as a donation, what it matters is that regular users become charter members with the sole purpose of getting the access to the so called benefits, and this topic, at least the beginning of it, proves it, people don't see it as a donation or a thank you gift, they see it as a service and we aren't doing nothing to prevent that except putting a lot of mumbo jumbo words for the sake of "marketing".
Actually, Arg... the only part of those quotes which could be interpreted as a "service promise" is the first one.
The second and third just detail the benefits of the thank you gift.
Suki... Sorry to say, people will always interpret things the way they want to...
Although we may want to change the wording on the first "promise" bit, the rets of the page just follows the CLEAR statement at the top, that I have already quotes, which says, "for donations of $49.95 USD or more, we give..."
Arantor...
No... people do not have to acknowledge that they understand there is no service promise... that is something that is required if there IS a service promise. Purchasers would have to acknowledge that there are specific terms to their purchase. Since this is a DONATION (and is clearly stated that it is a donation) there are no implied terms. We can give whatever we want in return for a donation.
Motoko...
We are not in breach of any laws.
Sure they will, it is our duty to tell then what exactly the charter membership is, something as simple as "This is not a service", "There are no implied terms" can help people to realize this is not a service. As always, be specific, not vague, no vague wording, no marketing strategies, simply be clear and consistent on what this charter membership is, the current page fails to accomplish that at least on a "masses" level.
If I were to chose I just remove the whole benefits text of that page (while keep providing the benefits of course), after all, like you say, its a donation, people can't expect anything in return for a donation.
and as I said... except for the one bit on installation, there is no vague wording....
Quote from: Kindred on November 01, 2012, 09:56:27 AM
Motoko...
We are not in breach of any laws.
Never said you were, just tried to clarify that one statement.
Quote from: Kindred on November 01, 2012, 09:56:27 AM
Actually, Arg... the only part of those quotes which could be interpreted as a "service promise" is the first one.
The second and third just detail the benefits of the thank you gift.
Actually all three could be interpreted as a "service promise"
QuoteIf you don't have the time to install SMF yourself, one of our Support Specialists will be more than happy to do it for you. Just open a helpdesk request, with your hosting information, and your forum should be up and running within twenty-four hours. We only guarantee one installation per year with your membership, though are always happy to answer any questions you have about installing SMF.
QuoteWith your Charter Membership you are given access to a closed section of our Community forums, as well as a spiffy badge under your name showing that you're a Charter Member.
QuoteYou also will gain access to our priority support Helpdesk, staffed by our Support Team. This means you will get private, one-on-one help without having to post in the public support forums.
"will", "are" and "guarantee" are the key words here that suggests "specific services for payment" that may not be available unless payment is made. Like I said, it all depends on how it is worded. A few minor changes in the wording may help clear things up.
;)
I think that you are reading too much into it and trying to spin those specific words.
I've already conceded that the first one should be reworded. "guarantee" is incorrectly included, indeed.
the second and third do not imply a service as you are suggesting. They indicate the things that are GIVEN to someone who has donated enough to receive a charter membership.
your attempt to "spin" the words "will" and "are" reminds me of Clinton....
"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton
Quote from: Kindred on November 01, 2012, 12:54:57 PM
I think that you are reading too much into it and trying to spin those specific words.
I've already conceded that the first one should be reworded. "guarantee" is incorrectly included, indeed.
the second and third do not imply a service as you are suggesting. They indicate the things that are GIVEN to someone who has donated enough to receive a charter membership.
Okay, I am not spinning anything. If I am reading too much into it then don't you think that others are doing so as well? Misinterpretation of something that is not clearly defined is what leads to lawsuits. My point is that the way it is currently worded could become the basis of a lawsuit simply because some WILL not interpret the statements as SMF intends them to be.
I am not here to argue with anyone. I am simply stating that from experience, I define the current statements not as a possible privilege but as specific services available only to those that pay for them. In legal terms, "services for payment".
Honestly, apart form the first bit, I can't see how anyone would interpret the second and third bits as you have unless they were trying to force the "service" interpretation... and if they are doing that, then they will assume that ANYTHING we say would be interpreted that way. You can not asusme that the words WILL and ARE have any specific connotation.
remember, the whole page is PREFACED with a statement indicating that charter membership is given in thanks for a DONATION. Everything after that needs to be interpreted using that preface if it is to make any logical sense at all.
Well I am almost positive that I am not the only one here misinterpreting the statements. I mean, isn't that what this topic turned out as? I surly did not initiate that the statement may not be accurate.
Do what you feel is right but would it be that big of chore to make a few very minor adjustment to avoid discussions such as this, and possible legal issues as well? I mean, how tough can it be?
Which again is what I was pursuing, make it clear, (newbie clear, noob clear). If you have to say this is not a service, then put it, in big red bold letters.
You might see it as clear as water, but most people don't/won't, this is a recurrent issue while writing code, you need to write code thinking on the most stupid possible scenario, simply because you don't know who will be using your software, even if I think it is stupid to put some checks I will still do it because not everyone has the same level of understanding as me. The same principle applies here, even if you think that page is as clear as water, you still need to be sure its as clear as water for the commoners out there. After all, that page is intended for them, not for you.
And yes, 99% of people here see charter membership as a service.
Just curios Kindred, may I ask you why you don't want this page to be changed?
it's not that I don't want the page to be changed... it is that, with the exception of the "guarantee" bit, I don't see why people insist that it needs to be changed...
So, the fact that several people had expressed that it will be good to change that page or at least reword some of the parts on it isn't enough?
The fact that this topic started because the OP was viewing the charter as a service isn't enough?
Again, just because its clear for you or you don't see anything wrong on it doesn't make it clear for everyone else. And that page is intended for the masses, the least we can do is make it clear for them nor for us.
Quote from: Suki on November 01, 2012, 04:08:24 PM
So, the fact that several people had expressed that it will be good to change that page or at least reword some of the parts on it isn't enough?
The fact that this topic started because the OP was viewing the charter as a service isn't enough?
Again, just because its clear for you or you don't see anything wrong on it doesn't make it clear for everyone else. And that page is intended for the masses, the least we can do is make it clear for them nor for us.
I've been viewing this in the background and I am both viewing it as a service, AND a donation.
Suki,
When people start claiming that the words "will" and "are" define a service, then they are being willfully dense.
I never said that the page should not be changed. I merely have been pointing out that just because some people don't read does not make the existing page "wrong"... and it was pointed out (and agreed) that at leats one part of the page actually is wrong and needs to be revised. I fail to see how much clearer the rest of the page can be though...
KCmartz... With the exception of the one section, there is no terms of service defined either outright or implied, merely some benefits (you can't... either you donate and get whatever the recipient is willing to give in return (may be nothing) or you purchase a service. It can not be both.)
Quote
I never said that the page should not be changed. I merely have been pointing out that just because some people don't read does not make the existing page "wrong"... and it was pointed out (and agreed) that at leats one part of the page actually is wrong and needs to be revised. I fail to see how much clearer the rest of the page can be though...
This.
It sounds odd that because of refusal to read it has to be changed.
Next thing that happens is that the modifications are not noticed or not read either and we get the same discussion over and over o0
Quote from: Kindred on November 01, 2012, 04:27:02 PM
When people start claiming that the words "will" and "are" define a service, then they are being willfully dense.
The words "are" and "will" in their current context in my opinion assist in suggesting a service for payment. I began my first post here simply stating my opinion from experience, hoping it may help.
Regardless of what you may think of my intelligence Kindred, I was not being "willfully dense" and the insult was not called for nor appreciated. It's your exact attitude with insults that keep people away from this website.
Have a pleasant evening. Jerk!
1) Here we have evidences that the page is misunderstood (at least is not understood the way SMF
[1] intends it).
2) We have discussions and fights every now and then to have some changes to this page.
3) The page is not about something futile like a modification, but is related to something rather important like money (that usually could makes people rather sad/upset) that can have legal consequences.
INAL:
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Substantiating-Charitable-Contributions
and in particular:
http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Charitable-Contributions---Quid-Pro-Quo-Contributions
of course the CM is less than 75$, so it shouldn't be an issue at all, though if the IRS would interpret the page the way many members are interpreting it it could be a problem for members donating more than 75$.
But of course
INAL and I don't even understand very well English (let alone legal English).
[1] With the F, yes, because the "charter membership" is something created by SMF and is not currently adopted by any other project of the SM organization.
I am going with the side of needs looked into further, and consultation with an expert.