Simple Machines Community Forum

     Scattered throughout this forum are notes about items that are being removed from SMF 2.1 Among those are the "Move" (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arimecibo.com%2Fsmf%2FThemes%2Fdefault%2Fimages%2Fbbc%2Fmove.gif&hash=9a42993597bb3122705ef43ae1b102dcf7195421), "glow" (https://static.simplemachinesweb.com/smf/default/images/bbc/glow.gif), and "shadow" (https://static.simplemachinesweb.com/smf/default/images/bbc/shadow.gif) editing features. Also the "Actors" and "Musicians" avatars have been removed (apparently due to licensing problems).

     These are items that regular members are going to notice. Administrators and moderators will see other changes, too. Is there a list somewhere that shows all of the items that will no longer be available in SMF 2.1? I can make no sense of the Github (https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1) site, so please do not suggest that.

There isn't actually a "what we have removed" guide, but we have this so far: Differences between SMF 2.1 and SMF 2.0  (https://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Differences_between_SMF_2.1_and_SMF_2.0)

some of the bbc codes that were removed will be restored in some respect, they may not completely function but mods can be created to restore the function.

d3vcho(void),

     I did see that page. I realize that SMF 2.1 is not ready for the final release, but that page might be the best place to put the info on what was removed. Some items are already listed.

Illori,

     I can live with the changes, but some older posts may show errors when these items are removed. I only ask to warn forum users that these items may not be available in the future. If they do not use them now, there will be no problems later.

Quote from: noquiexis on August 11, 2018, 11:56:24 AM
Also the "Actors" and "Musicians" avatars have been removed (apparently due to licensing problems).

Finally ::).

Quote from: noquiexis on August 11, 2018, 01:09:56 PM
I can live with the changes, but some older posts may show errors when these items are removed.

Actually, no, the BBCode won't be recognized, so it would look like if you had BBcode turned off, like if something was in a move tag, it would look like this:

[move]some text that should move[/move]

Quote from: noquiexis on August 11, 2018, 01:09:56 PM
I only ask to warn forum users that these items may not be available in the future. If they do not use them now, there will be no problems later.

Yes, that's fair ;).

GigaWatt,

     For those who have used avatars that are being removed, there will be an "x" where that image previously appeared (unless I choose to reload them). It will be up to the individual user whether or not they change the avatar. I already uploaded the Oxygen set, so folks do have access to those avatars.

     As for the "(move)some text that should move(/move)" example that you cited, that would still be an error. That will also be up to the individual user whether or not they edit their posts with these errors. I do not intend to install a bunch of mods to get these simple things back in operation. Hence my statement, "I can live with the changes..."

     I imagine that the changelog for SMF 2.1 will tell us what has been removed as well as what has been added. Still, some advance notification now would be appreciated.

Quote from: noquiexis on August 16, 2018, 08:44:08 PM
For those who have used avatars that are being removed, there will be an "x" where that image previously appeared (unless I choose to reload them). It will be up to the individual user whether or not they change the avatar. I already uploaded the Oxygen set, so folks do have access to those avatars.

Yes, I understand that... and I don't actually care. IMO, members that use the default avatars are usually ones that have little to no interest in joining the community. Their post count is lower then 10 in most cases, so... as I said, I don't actually care.

On the other hand, I haven't seen an active member that either didn't have an avatar (their personal choice) or didn't have a custom avatar.

I just went through a major clean up of about one half of the members on my forum... most of them haven't logged in in 5 years, so forgive me if I'm not all in tears if the default avatars are gone.

Not to mention that those were completely useless for the field of interest/discussion of my forum, so, I for one, won't miss them at all.

Quote from: noquiexis on August 16, 2018, 08:44:08 PM
As for the "(move)some text that should move(/move)" example that you cited, that would still be an error. That will also be up to the individual user whether or not they edit their posts with these errors. I do not intend to install a bunch of mods to get these simple things back in operation. Hence my statement, "I can live with the changes..."

Generally speaking, I wouldn't call it an "error". Basically, it's just misformatted text. Everything is readable if you just ignore the tags. Besides, you can always remove those tags from posts manually with a script ;).

That was actually changed recently, and those tags won't show up at all, as if they were not there. They will, however, still remain in the post code.

Even better ;). I don't have to bother to remove them manually ;).

Quote from: noquiexis on August 16, 2018, 08:44:08 PM
     For those who have used avatars that are being removed, there will be an "x" where that image previously appeared (unless I choose to reload them). It will be up to the individual user whether or not they change the avatar. I already uploaded the Oxygen set, so folks do have access to those avatars.

Since some months is a js implementation in smf 2.1 which catch cases where the avatar can not be found,
in this case the default avatar will be displayed.

Quote from: Gwenwyfar on August 16, 2018, 09:40:51 PM
That was actually changed recently, and those tags won't show up at all, as if they were not there. They will, however, still remain in the post code.

Now I wonder...

I have posts where brackets are used for other purposes, for example indication to users to push a button (like so: "press [SAVE]" )
This thingy that suppresses tags like [move ][ /move] because those are outdated: will that also suppress these texts like [SAVE] in the example above?

Quote from: @rjen on August 17, 2018, 05:27:45 AM

Quote from: Gwenwyfar on August 16, 2018, 09:40:51 PM
That was actually changed recently, and those tags won't show up at all, as if they were not there. They will, however, still remain in the post code.

Now I wonder...

I have posts where brackets are used for other purposes, for example indication to users to push a button (like so: "press [SAVE]" )
This thingy that suppresses tags like [move ][ /move] because those are outdated: will that also suppress these texts like [SAVE] in the example above?

No, it is parsing only those bbc specifically.

Thanks!

     If something works as planned in SMF 2.0.15, but does not work after the upgrade to SMF 2.1, the original poster will see that as an error. My stated goal was to give my forum members an advance warning of the proposed changes.

     This discussion is about how the software behaves, not about the relative value of forum users. Please confine your replies to the issue at hand.

Except that some of the decisions about why things were removed or fundamentwlly changed are inherently about perceived value judgements relating to users.

And no upgrade ever guarantees that every feature ever before will continue to exist, error or no error. In fact, that assumption starts from the premise that every change is bad because a difference in behaviour is now implicitly a bug rather than anything else. Change is merely that, a change. Your description of it as an error inherently makes it a judgement call.

Citation: I wrote thousands of lines of 2.1.

also, having been involved with forums, you should know that no discussion is ever actually "confined" to the original issue :P

I don't know that the release notes will go into significant detail over every change...  (actually, typically, our release notes have a single line about a major change and may not detail minor changes, given the timeframe of the current releases and changes to teams during that timeframe) :P

Things I can remember having been removed from 2.0 in 2.1:

* core features page, enabling things is done elsewhere now
* admin panel backup system, it just didn't work particularly well
* admin menu toggle between drop down and sidebar, now it's only the drop down
* SHA1 passwords so all the existing code people use to bridge in making accounts now doesn't work properly (except it's been replaced with a much more secure hash, which in itself shows that this isn't an error to remove one behaviour and change it with another)

Karma's gone.  (No reason to hold back now!  >:D)

The openID system was removed as well, wasn't it? (I guess no one really cares all that much about this one :P)

Also the ability to add html to board descriptions was removed.

Quote from: Gwenwyfar on August 17, 2018, 12:54:20 PM
The openID system was removed as well, wasn't it? (I guess no one really cares all that much about this one :P)

Never used it in my life

     I do thank the SMF development team for the hard work that they put into each stable release. If all of the user-perceptible changes are not included in the changelog, those of us who administer these forums will have to discover those changes along with our forum users.

Arantor,

     I do realize that user input was considered for the changes enacted. Administrators will know of these changes, and it is up to us to explain those changes to the forum users. Most forum users do not know where the SMF download (http://download.simplemachines.org/) page is, nor will they read the changelog. Users may interpret the changes as errors.

Kindred,

     Categorizing users based on what avatar they use is not necessary to the discussion of the software. Perhaps I worded that confinement request poorly.

Jeesh, you don't get it, do you?

Quote from: noquiexis on August 17, 2018, 02:10:44 PM
     I do thank the SMF development team for the hard work that they put into each stable release. If all of the user-perceptible changes are not included in the changelog, those of us who administer these forums will have to discover those changes along with our forum users.

Arantor,

     I do realize that user input was considered for the changes enacted. Administrators will know of these changes, and it is up to us to explain those changes to the forum users. Most forum users do not know where the SMF download (http://download.simplemachines.org/) page is, nor will they read the changelog. Users may interpret the changes as errors.

That's a good point.

Which part of it? The part where everything is immediately considered a bug just because it's different?

(Admins are no better or worse than regular users about this. If one starts from the position that change is inherently bad, there's no reason to even consider the upgrade in the first place.)

Also, for the changes I mentioned, I didn't exactly ask for user input, I mostly just did them for reasons that were valid at the time, even if the intervening years saw me reconsider my stance on some of them.

Arantor wrote,

     "Jeesh, you don't get it, do you?"

     Apparently not. What am I missing here? I am not being rude, just confused. Are you talking about the perception of errors? Maybe I should just quit while I am behind.

Here's a question for you.

Likes were added, karma was removed. By your definition, how are these not errors? Karma was working as intended in 2.0.15 and the need for likes was considered not important (and for years after 2.0 came out, it was fought against).

Just because something behaved a certain way in 2.0 does not, under any circumstances, dictate that in 2.1 it will work the same way. If behaviour of all things from version to version was ever mandated to be kept, it curtails development of anything.

You're also trying to assert that 'the relative value of forum users' is not relevant to the changes of the software behaviour. It absolutely does: the relative value of forum users was precisely WHY some of the decisions were made.

And that's where my frustration meter kicks in, this sounds to me awfully like someone telling me how I made a decision - without actually checking with me how I made that decision, and believe me, some of the things in this thread are things I personally made the decision over.

True, I didn't make the changes over the bbcode - though I fully support the removal of things like the move bbc. Though I seem to recall that the original plan was to remove them unilaterally and make them available as addons for people who still wanted/used them, rather than what has actually been done. (I'm not sure how I feel about what has been done with things like the move bbc. But that's another matter, those who came after me made that decision, and the consequences of that decision are theirs to deal with.)

But things like removing karma, that was on me - and yet by your very definition, this is now an error. I assert that it is not an error, it is simply the product of change.

This looks to me like a simple misunderstanding. He's saying we should have a changelog for the admins to know what has changed and be able to tell users about the changes, because for users they may think it's an error/bug if they see something "stopped working like it always did". Which they really would :P

Or maybe noquiexis could clarify that for us if that's not it :)

There's no misunderstanding here - I'm just refusing to treat 'forum admins' differently from 'users', because forum admins are also users. The same views of 'this doesn't work how it used to, therefore it is broken' will apply, changelog or no changelog.

Sure, some will. How does that change anything? The only difference will be we're going to be the ones to have to tell those admins "stuff changed, you'll need mods to get that back in 2.1"

Some? Most.

The only difference is the volume of abuse.

Bear in mind I've already had this argument on and off for the last five years since I actually removed the things I talked about removing. Like the charming emails I got after talking about redoing the admin panel and how I must be such a retardo idiot (actual quote) for doing what I did, and the people asking if the entire dev team was as stupid as I was. Oh, and the number of people suggesting I should be fired for incompetence. Though no actual threats, which was an improvement, and no-one was saying I was trying to actually kill SMF, which is also a nice improvement on previous times.

I'm also waiting for people to complain that it no longer says 'child boards' and now says 'sub-boards', but that's another story for another day.

You'll excuse me for not believing this community is filled with wonderful people, and you'll excuse me for not differentiating between types of complainers.

Just remember: I'm one of the people who caused this topic. I'm literally one of the reasons the OP is concerned, because the majority of things removed in 2.1 were down to me. The majority of changes of behaviour and improvements is other people.

Arantor,

     Perhaps I was incomplete in expressing my concern. I personally will not see changes as errors, but the forum users who are not aware of these changes may perceive them as such. I never used "Karma" and probably will not use "Likes". My forum users will not see this change.

     I do apologize if my ignorance is seen as a complaint. That was never my intent. My only goal was to prepare my forum users for the changes that will occur.

     Gwenwyfar hit the nail on the head (Reply #26). That is exactly what I mean. I never intended to claim that any change is an error. Upgrades are bound to include changes that may surprise some users.

Quote from: GigaWattmembers that use the default avatars are usually ones that have little to no interest in joining the community

Quote from: GigaWattI haven't seen an active member that either didn't have an avatar (their personal choice) or didn't have a custom avatar.

     That was what I argued against. Some of our most prolific posters use the default avatars. To belittle those users is an affront. I chose not to use an avatar for this forum because I did not want one.

I'm sorry, you were getting some of the results of me drunk posting and letting loose some frustration - though some of the points I made still stand, you would be the rare exception who doesn't see an upgrade as 'breaking things', and a lot of people will argue that changing behaviour is a bug because they liked the old behaviour, see https://xkcd.com/1172/ for an absurdist example of the phenomenon.

The point about avatars was not meant as an insult, though. It's an example of an observation we've noticed across a *very* large number of (not just) SMF installs, that users who don't bother to customise their profile with their own picture do correlate pretty well to users who don't contribute a large amount of posts.

The one circumstance we've seen where there isn't as much of a correlation (but there's still a correlation, just not as strong) is if the uploadable avatar size is still set to 65x65, the same size as the preset images so that uploading an image doesn't give you anything over using one of the presets.

Just as in the same way with newer forums where you get the letter-on-a-coloured-square default avatar when you register, users who don't customise from that tend to not be good contributors - because an avatar choice is often linked with creating a sort of identity on a site beyond the username, and there has been a lot of work over the years showing that people often identify a poster by the avatar before they identify by the username.

Quote from: Dictionarysome
adjective
quantifier; used with either mass nouns or plural count nouns to indicate an unspecified number or quantity

1: being an unknown, undetermined, or unspecified unit or thing
2: a : being one, a part, or an unspecified number of something (such as a class or group) named or implied
    b : being of an unspecified amount or number

We don't know how many, and I think it is irrelevant to what is being said.

I'm going to assume everything else was among the frustration ramblings, because it has no relation to what I have said.

Ah, so what you're saying is that nothing I've said was actually of any use, thanks for the confirmation.

Maybe, maybe not. I frankly don't know. But if that's what you want to assume from what I have not said, go ahead.

Seems fairly hard to interpret it any other way.

I would finish the job and remove my nonsense posts but all that happens when I try to do that in the past is that my account gets added to a group where the permissions are removed.

Maybe "connection" or "relevance" would have been a better word than "relation" there. I have merely agreed that a changelog is a good idea and that unknown changes would indeed cause problems with some users/admins. Everything else you've said does not change this fact, it doesn't have a direct relevance or connection. You're changing the subject to something else and I'm simply not going to any other separate discussion because I'm not interested, and it's not what I was commenting about. Whether any of this side discussion is useful or not would be an entirely different matter.

If you meant to say your side discussion is not useful to my comments specifically, then you'd be correct. Useful to something else? I don't know, could be. Maybe on how to deal with said admins it would be useful, for one.

Arantor,

     After reading of the flak that you got from others (Reply #29), I can see how you may be defensive when some Newbie like me asks a 'dumb' question. Again, my apologies for not framing my thoughts better. In my 67 years, I never acquired some of the social graces that most humans expect.

     There are two major reasons why I seldom post on this forum. First: SMF is so well written that I do not have a lot of questions. Like riding a bicycle or operating a motor vehicle, all it takes is some education and practice. Second: Although I do have access to the raw files of my SMF installation, there is very little that I understand about the operations of the software. Thus, I seldom have anything helpful to contribute to others.

     My only thoughts about the default avatars is that, why offer them at all if you don't expect people to use them? Admittedly, my experience is very limited. There are only three other forums of any kind that I visit. Long time users of SMF forums may not know that the avatar size is not always the same. They may be perfectly happy with the 65 x 65 pixel size.

Arantor and Gwenwyfar,

     Please do not allow this discussion to cause a rift between you. I have seen this happen too many times in too many other places. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but those opinions should be tempered with some measure of respect.

     My original request should have been: "What should I tell my membership about the changes in SMF 2.1?" Loosing a few avatars is only one of those changes.

Was the profile edits log also removed ?
That was very useful to be honest

Quote from: SychO on August 19, 2018, 05:52:58 PM
Was the profile edits log also removed ?
That was very useful to be honest

It's still there, it was just moved to "Track user" menu.

Quote from: Study Force on August 17, 2018, 01:10:32 PM
Never used it in my life

I don't think anybody actually used it :D.

Quote from: noquiexis on August 17, 2018, 08:16:04 PM

Quote from: GigaWattmembers that use the default avatars are usually ones that have little to no interest in joining the community

Quote from: GigaWattI haven't seen an active member that either didn't have an avatar (their personal choice) or didn't have a custom avatar.

     That was what I argued against. Some of our most prolific posters use the default avatars. To belittle those users is an affront. I chose not to use an avatar for this forum because I did not want one.

Your forum has to be the first example I've seen where active, contributing members actually use the default avatars. I mean, it's one thing to use it temporarily, like in the way "I'm not really sure I'd stick around this place", but after a few hundred posts (or at least a hundred), I have yet to see a member that didn't use their own custom avatar or chose not to use an avatar at all (again, their own personal choice, as per your own example ;)).

Quote from: Arantor on August 18, 2018, 04:52:10 AM
The point about avatars was not meant as an insult, though. It's an example of an observation we've noticed across a *very* large number of (not just) SMF installs, that users who don't bother to customise their profile with their own picture do correlate pretty well to users who don't contribute a large amount of posts.

Exactly. This is the case in every forum I've ever visited or been a part of. Mind that I'm not talking about English speaking forums only. It's just human nature. People want to be recognized by the avatar they use, it's as simple as that... or by not using one.

Take it from me. If I just needed some info or an attachment from some forum and I can't get to it without registering, I usually just register, download or read whatever I needed, log off and usually, never return. I don't bother uploading an avatar... I would maybe choose one of the default ones if the forum required me to choose one after registration (believe it or not, there are forums configured like this, you're required to choose an avatar after registering or you can't open certain topics or download attachments ::), it silly, I know), but other than that, I wouldn't return to the forum. In some cases, I've registered up to 3 times on one single forum, just because I forgot my login credentials (including the email address) under which I registered on the forum 6, 10, 18 months earlier :D.

Quote from: noquiexis on August 18, 2018, 09:22:44 AM
     My only thoughts about the default avatars is that, why offer them at all if you don't expect people to use them? Admittedly, my experience is very limited. There are only three other forums of any kind that I visit. Long time users of SMF forums may not know that the avatar size is not always the same. They may be perfectly happy with the 65 x 65 pixel size.

I don't actually know the answer to this one, but... I guess the answer would be, back then, a default image list was the simplest way to actually give complete newbie users the option to actually have an avatar. After a few hundred posts, users will get accustomed to the UI and actually find out how to upload an avatar by themselves... or load an URL with an image on their profile, whatever.

I would say that most internet users nowadays actually know what a forum is (10 or 15 years ago, this was not the case), so in most cases, they know that they can upload a "custom picture" that distinguishes them from other users on the forum ;). This is also the case on social media sites, so if you've ever been on one, you'll probably see at least one image on the site that is usually the user's "avatar" (or whatever it's called).

Quote from: Gwenwyfar on August 19, 2018, 07:50:30 PM

Quote from: SychO on August 19, 2018, 05:52:58 PM
Was the profile edits log also removed ?
That was very useful to be honest

It's still there, it was just moved to "Track user" menu.

Well, it's always been in track user menu, just found the option to enable it from admin area, sweet

     Frankly I do not care what avatar, if any, forum users employ. I only used that as one example of "Items removed in SMF 2.1". Furthermore, I restated the help request as  "What should I tell my membership about the changes in SMF 2.1?" (Reply #37).

     If one were to go through the Online Manual (https://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Main_Page) page by page, one would eventually discover the differences between SMF 2.0 and SMF 2.1, but that would be a tedious process. The changelog defines these differences, eliminating that tedium.

     No one expects the changelog to be published until all of the changes are incorporated into the new version. Nor should they expect every jot and tittle to be explained. However, obvious items should be pointed out.

     Looking at the Beta releases does give us an idea of where things are going, but even those are not the final product. Still, there are some decisions that are hard a fast. Knowing those changes in advance of a major upgrade should prepare administrators for what is to come. Finding those changes is the point of this help request.