Simple Machines Community Forum

SMF Support => SMF 1.1.x Support => Topic started by: Joshua Dickerson on April 08, 2007, 08:04:02 PM

Poll
Question: Why are there so many duplicate support posts? (Top 3 reasons)
Option 1: The simplemachines.org website is too hard to navigate.
Option 2: Search fails to return accurate results.
Option 3: Not enough documentation in the manual.
Option 4: Support staff is faster than searching.
Option 5: Human laziness.
Option 6: Don't know what to search for.
Option 7: Other (please post below)
Title: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 08, 2007, 08:04:02 PM
The Simple Machines team has noticed that there is over 1,000,000 posts and most of them are requests for support. Out of those requests for support, most of them have already been answered. Although we enjoy helping users, nobody likes to be redundant. So, we have come up with a couple of questions for you to help us improve this process.

Please select one to three options above. Once you have done that, please answer a couple of questions about each option. (please don't comment on the new theme here. There are other topics for that)


  • The simplemachines.org website is too hard to navigate.
    • Do we need to add more advertising for the doc site?
    • Do we need to change the layout?
    • Do we need to add better descriptions to the boards?
    • Do we need to add/remove boards?
    • Is there anything else we can do?

  • Search fails to return accurate results.

    • Are the results wrong?
    • Are the results missing?

  • Not enough documentation in the manual.

    • Have you searched the manual? ;)
    • The doc team takes requests and user submitted documentation.
    • Any suggestions on how to speed up the documentation process?

  • Support staff is faster than searching.

    • What makes searching so slow?
    • How can we flip that?

  • Human laziness.

    • How can we make it easier?

  • Don't know what to search for.

    • Do you need help creating search strings?
    • Without requesting support here, can you give a couple of examples as to the question that you have asked and didn't know what to search for?

  • Other (please post below)

Please translate this for your language. If you do, make sure you link back to this post. Also, please translate replies or tell them to post here (in English). Thank You.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 08, 2007, 08:29:00 PM
During a brainstorm the team had, we came up with a bunch of ideas. Some may be done, some not. What do you think about them?


  • Reorganize the structure of boards.
  • Add more advertising for the doc site.
  • Allow you to see the search terms in the url: www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?search=foo,bar,bla
  • Change the 404 to work as a search like www.php.net/array or www.mysql.com/select
  • Support staff waits to answer duplicate support requests.
  • Get users to create docs.
  • Teach people to mark their topic as solved/unsolved
  • Show "similar posts" on certain boards. When posting and/or when viewing a topic
  • An automatic poster that does what the previous bullet does, but makes a reply post about it.
  • Show a popup asking if you have searched the OM.

To summarize suggestions from members in this topic:

  • A guided support process (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163533.msg1045843#msg1045843) that asks you a series of questions along a series of steps.
  • Remove posts that don't answer the question. Remove topics that have already been asked (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=26831.msg1045661#msg1045661)
  • Search the doc site at the same time as the community. Add up to 10 results before displaying the community hits. Make sure the user knows that it is from the doc site.
  • Allow a user to ask a full question like "I deleted myself from my forum. HELP!"
  • Add a little blurb (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163533.msg1046250#msg1046250) on the search page that says "For best results use ~3 words. Try these 3..."
  • Have something at the top of support pages or when posting on a support board that says to not give away your information to just anyone.
  • Enable the karma system (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163533.msg1048893#msg1048893) so that posts from better support people are looked at first (not sure how this is helping the support process)
  • Use common search features  (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163533.msg1048939#msg1048939)such as +
  • The search box should show where it is searching at all times.
  • The search box should always be shown.
  • Create a volunteer membergroup (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163533.msg1049019#msg1049019) for support.
  • Create a FAQ board (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163533.msg1070886#msg1070886) where the support team can move solved topics to.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 09, 2007, 06:10:54 PM
I think that is "not enough documentation" and "don't know what to search for" or the likes. :D

I say we implement ALL of the above (or as much as we can) into the system.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 09, 2007, 06:38:37 PM
Hm... theres a few things i'm noticing.

Some issues seem to be beyond the skillset of the various people who help in the support boards (not just support specialists but members such as myself as well).   I am noticing a lot of times that support isn't being rendered in cases of things involving SQL or general PHP configuration errors.   The former subject is a very touchy one to mess with as a whole due to the possibilities of damage that could be done.  I personally operate under the assumption that someone will not do a backup.

Possibly put more simply, I, for example, am not familiar with SMF's database layout.  As such, I am unable with my current skillset to assist those members both due to not knowing an answer, but also because I would be afraid of giving a SQL query and wiping out the database by accident :P.

This isn't the fault of anyone in particular... that i've seen, i've not seen any major documentation about the database, i think such documents could be rendered useful to those who care to look. 

Id be glad to get my hands in it if theres any decent documentation of the database structure and what each column signifies and how it correlates to the others.

This isn't to say that nobody who does support knows this, i'm sure the knowledge is out there, just that i'm noticing that such questions are going unanswered.  Personally i read all new posts every day to check up on resolutions -- i've learned quite a lot that way and it improves my skillset.

As far as what the topic is about goes... i'd have to say:

-- Human Laziness -- post on the board, and forget about it, let support deal with it.  'nuff said, i think this is what people are thinking, or just doing subconsciously
-- (in)visibility of Online Manual -- This actually has a tab on the new theme :), but i dont think awareness of the manual is quite widespread enough.  Many questions are answered in the manual, and many are answered WITH the manual :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 10, 2007, 07:14:45 AM
I voted for "Search fails to return accurate results" and "human laziness".
The search function needs a lot of improvement.
It hardly ever returns the things I expect when I search for something.
And if the search function doesn't work  properly, the online manual looses also some of it's value because it's hard to find things in it.
For example: many people need help to install mods manually on their themes.
But if you search the documention about eg "manual installation", it doesn't return anything useful.

But the manual is of good quality though!

And groundup posted some really good idea's!
The last one would be great!
Or before a user can post a new support request he must confirm that he has searched the manual and searched the forum for similar problems.
So user want to create new topic -> a page shows with "Have you searched...?" And a "Yes" and "No" button.
If he clicks no he is directed to the online manual or the search form, if he clicks yes he can create a new post.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sirius on April 10, 2007, 07:38:47 AM
read my post : http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=26831.60
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: nokonium on April 10, 2007, 09:46:34 AM
    Having support experience I have to say that a lot of it is down to human laziness. But going back to when I needed support, circa SMF 1.0 RC1, I remember there being is large element of not knowing what to put in the search box. This is probably a significant problem for members who's first language isn't english (or american  ;) ).

    Would it be possible to have a 'guided' search function? What I mean is dropdown boxes that will not only reduce the amount of data to search but also introduce into the search specific terminologies to search on.

    This sort of thing:

    What type of problem do you have?

    • Error message -

      • Fatal error
      • Cannot redeclare
    • Display problem -

      • Default, Classic or Babylon Theme
      • Other Theme
    • Installing problem

      • Installing SMF
      • Installing Mod
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Dragooon on April 10, 2007, 09:54:35 AM
Okay now here is my opinion.
First of all I have seen That there are moderators which are on partially of a day.So I suggest is to have more moderators which will be available round the clock.
   Second I have seen Many probs which are extremely common but NOT listed in docs so If you guys found any common issue it is good t include it in docs.
(I may come up with more Ideas)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 10, 2007, 10:07:24 AM
Keep the responses coming. So far I am learning a LOT about the user experience.

Harro: Thanks, but I can't take all of the credit. We brainstormed about this on the team boards first.

nokoium: I like that idea. I think the support page should be organized a little better.

Quote from: Dragooon on April 10, 2007, 09:54:35 AM
First of all I have seen That there are moderators which are on partially of a day.So I suggest is to have more moderators which will be available round the clock.
The point is that we don't want to keep repeating ourselves. I am trying to get ideas to reduce the human involvement, not increase it.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 10, 2007, 11:18:10 AM
Not sure why you didn't post this here, but oh well. I can't split/merge on that board so I will just quote it:

Quote from: sirius on April 10, 2007, 07:25:13 AM
about some rules for the moderators as well ?  like deleting the wrong answers and useless posts,

I own a support forum and I always delete the wrong answers to a problem . If you don't do it, when we do a search, we end up with 5 pages of useless stuff and if we post again to ask for the answer we are told to do a search...   more it goes  and more your forum will become useless , full of answers like : clear your browser's cache and cookies..  answers given by peoples who don't have a clue about what they are talking about.

My moderators are there to delete the useless stuff so that when we do a search on my forum , we get an answer, not 5 pages of useless stuff.   I've been using SMF for ages now, been a paying member at one time but got frustrated with the amount of useless threads on this support forum..

don't get mad, there are no other ways to say this.

another thing that I find quite strange, when a newbie ask for an answer to a problem and someone tell him to do some PHP editing  and the newbie can barely install SMF, let alone some PHP scripts , I get a good laugh...how will he do this anyway..  why not post a small file so that he can replace the one in his installation...   and explain what you did so that those who want to learn can do it.

  maybe that I am an administrator of a support forum for too long and I am asking too much , but blaming it all on the members is wrong..  it is the mods and admins who make for a great support forum.
Thanks for the input regardless :) The idea is valid, but I want to make some comments about it...

The docs are for clean and concise answers to your questions. The support forums are for those that have questions not answered in the docs IMO. I am not a fan of removing support posts/topics. I think using those to create documentation is the way to go. Never-the-less, that is only my opinion and the idea will still be discussed.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on April 10, 2007, 11:38:04 AM
I have voted for "Human Laziness" and "Don't know what to search for"

I usually try to help in the Portuguese area. It happens alot, a new post appears asking for help about something that has been answered 2 topics below. In the general english support this also happens, but since there are sooooo many topics, it's not that noted.
Also, it happens not knowing what to search for. It happened to me more than once, want to find something, but not know what terms to use.

Anyway, I think that search works fine. the only thing that needs adjustment is the fact that people are lazy :P if you can find out a way to improve this, let me know :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 10, 2007, 11:57:53 AM
Do you have some examples of the questions that you asked? Maybe we can break down questions to find the relative words in it. For instance "I deleted myself on my forum" would be broken down to "deleted myself". The first search phrase returns nothing, while the second returns 8 pages. It could also search the doc site at the same time? Maybe on the search page it would say "These 10 results were returned from the documentation [hide these results]". Then beneath those, it would show everything else. Probably showing a maximum of 10 results from the doc site would help a lot too.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on April 10, 2007, 12:16:11 PM
I am sorry, I don't remember any example now... Eventually I created a support topic, maybe repeated :P

It's fairly obvious that you will NOT search a complete sentence like that... And I believe people are smart enough to broke down their sentence to 2 or 3 words...

Anyway, the main problem is still laziness. When I started using SMF, I had problems with my phpBB converter. I searched for the problem, and found it somewhere in the 5th page of search results. But I found it, it was there! Then, I see on the converters support forum people having the exact same problem I had, asking for solution over and over and over... Yes, people are lazy. I am lazy too :P but not that much :D

If you really think you need to change something, then I would say:
* ignore "short words" like "I", "me", "we", "why" etc etc etc...
* pick up some human work, and compile a list of frequent problems/solutions. have it shown everywhere on the forum :P (wiki-style maybe?)
* have a check field on the post form, where people should confirm that they have read that list :D
* eventually pick some more human work, and translate that list as possible.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 10, 2007, 01:53:03 PM
Search engines do it - www.ask.com for instance - is known for it's ability to understand human. Short words are referred to as "stop words" in database lingo. If you see something about stop words, that is what that is referring to. There is a list of FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions), but I can tell that enforces one of the problems - not enough knowledge of the documentation.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 10, 2007, 02:38:07 PM
I like the idea that seems to come when reading Margarett's post. It seems to me that on the search page it wouldn't be too hard to make a quick blurb about, "For the best search results just use two or three keywords in your query." (Or something like that.)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: B Patterson on April 10, 2007, 06:29:53 PM
One thing that would be possible is to have a moderation queue in effect.  When a users posts a support request (in the support board only) there is a check-box for if they've searched.  If they have, they check it and the post goes up.  If not, then it's queued until a moderator can review it and either post links to the solution or give the solution.

Now i know the way around this is to just check that box ;)  But, let's say you also every night or a few times a day for large boards, run quick searches for the keywords inside of posts in the support area.   Resource hog I bet.... I'm just spiff-balling here.

Another option is to utilize a mod that says "This is the answer" much like experts-exchange.com or other type help places.  Then not only do you get a resolution to it, but you've also go a solution.  And you can then even combine the two posts (dynamically of course) so that the question is given at first (post 1) and then in a green-box or whatever the solution is given inside the first posts text.  That sounds like a fantastic mod.... hmmmm.... Shhh.... IT'S MINE I SWEAR!!!
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 10, 2007, 06:37:42 PM
Resource consumption should not be a concern for this.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: LGLDSR on April 11, 2007, 09:50:48 PM
Well, since you asked....

Kevin has in his signature: "I can Install YaBB For Free If Anyone Is Stuck. Leave A Message For My Attention."

I emailed him sometime ago and haven't heard Word One    :o

Other than that, I think your support is GREAT!

Best,

Lyman
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 03:10:52 AM
Quote from: LGLDSR on April 11, 2007, 09:50:48 PM
Well, since you asked....

Kevin has in his signature: "I can Install YaBB For Free If Anyone Is Stuck. Leave A Message For My Attention."

I emailed him sometime ago and haven't heard Word One    :o

Other than that, I think your support is GREAT!

Best,

Lyman
This isn't YaBB and I don't even know who Kevin is. If you want to have someone install SMF for you, consider looking at getting a Charter Membership. I wouldn't trust just anyone with username and password to my site.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 12, 2007, 04:10:08 AM
Quote from: groundup on April 12, 2007, 03:10:52 AM
This isn't YaBB and I don't even know who Kevin is. If you want to have someone install SMF for you, consider looking at getting a Charter Membership. I wouldn't trust just anyone with username and password to my site.

Early Morning Post/Drivel/Braindump:

People seem to also often think that anyone posting, offering help, etc. is support. While this is true and I, for one, am grateful for any and all posts that offer assistance I would have to wonder if maybe the Karma system or a thank-you or ranking system might be put into place? (Though keeping it secure would be ideal.) If people coming here could see who was ranked well and thus know trust is not an issue so much they might be more inclined to read older posts from them or search for topics by them.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 12, 2007, 04:20:29 AM
Enable the karma would be a good idea!
Just have to find a way then to prevent that eg 1 user would keep decreasing karma for a certain person of the support team./me thinks at Motoko-Chan, support creep situation :D
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: ladynada on April 12, 2007, 05:18:25 AM
I would vote for enhancement of the search function. I like to use the + and the "xxx" when I do searches, to narrow down the results.

Also, the search needs to be able to handle filenames and code fragments.  Most of the searches that fail for me, are on those two criteria.

thanks.
nada
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 12, 2007, 05:56:41 AM
Harro:

I just posted a zany idea, that I suspect will be squished, a few moments ago. A self-elected group who had to (by way of profile and confirmation perhaps - method can vary) say they wanted to be so could also have a separate membergroup. Those might be "Volunteers" or the likes but, remember, I just mentioned it a few moments ago and there are so many holes in that idea that it is sure to fail.

I think that you might fit into that category? You like to provide support. You're not on the team. Yet your support is reliable and effective. Coupled with a rating (Karma) and a voluntary admission into the system as a helper or the likes? Hmm... This does NOTHING to lessen support requests immediately I don't think but, in time, I suspect it will.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 12, 2007, 06:36:16 AM
/me thinks out loud
If you would create such a "volunteer" membergroup I think the members of the support team should also create a way to evaluate those volunteers.
It's easy to become a volunteer, but it's not because you set it in your profile that your support is reliable and of good quality.
So some kind of checklist is needed, and also evaluate the volunteers with this checklist every now and then.
But then it could be that these volunteers would become more "official" then voluntary...
On the other hand, it would indeed be a sign to people who need help with something, that you are willing to help, they can trust you and that your help is of good quality.


You can also create a new membergroup for these regular members that give support and the support teams decides who to add to it (so don't make it voluntary).
So if you notice a member that gives good support, simply add him (or her) to that membergroup.
So it's more like a sign of "gratitude" and a way of saying thank you from the support team.


Or create more "support categories".
Now there are for example "Support Specialist" and "Lead Support Specialist".
You could also create for example a "Junior support specialist".

Hope these pretty random thoughts make some sence.

[edit]
Thanks for the compliments by the way.
Nice to hear a support specialist say that my support is reliable and effective ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 07:08:36 AM
Quote from: ladynada on April 12, 2007, 05:18:25 AM
I would vote for enhancement of the search function. I like to use the + and the "xxx" when I do searches, to narrow down the results.

Also, the search needs to be able to handle filenames and code fragments.  Most of the searches that fail for me, are on those two criteria.

thanks.
nada

It does find files and parts of code. There is a huge usability issue with the search though - it searches in the board that you are in or the topic that you are in without telling you.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on April 12, 2007, 07:10:13 AM
That is true and very valid but, nevertheless, it will not make less duplicate support topics I think.
But, the topic is "How can we improve the support process" so it's a valid option.

Anyway, I think that the problem is still human laziness :P
Since I started to give some basic support, I lost count to how many forums I accessed with admin accounts. FTP accounts, CPanel accounts (!!!!) everything. If I had bad intentions, those guys would have gotten bigger problems. So, if I was given those accesses and I'm not any kind of "official supporter", I assume that they would give them to anyone who offers support.
Some people are so lazy that they prefer to give anyone their forum administration, than to try to solve things by themselves...
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 12, 2007, 07:14:47 AM
That's indeed true.
couple days ago somebody even posted his cpanel info on the forum, together with a database dump, including admin username and password.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 07:45:06 AM
I've edited the original post with a question ... Without requesting support here, can you give a couple of examples as to the question that you have asked and didn't know what to search for?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on April 12, 2007, 09:39:08 AM
Sometimes I think that... it's not worth it.
This thread has 4 days now, and only +20 replies, 370 views.
The only persons who participated are team members and 3 or 4 "regular members" who also do some support.
People DON'T CARE! And that really annoys me. On my forum, same thing happens... Members claim that something is not OK with the rules, the admin actions, etc etc. Then I say: "OK, everyone, then let me hear your proposals. What do you think you can do to improve?". And the result is... nothing, niente, nada!

Obviously you (we?) cannot simply ignore users because they are lazy, they don't search, and do not participate in a "support improvement" thread. But it's also true that most of the people simply don't care, as long they can have someone (team or not) willing to help them in a question that has been answered 143242354243412 times...

So, this pool's winner is: Human Laziness :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 10:53:41 AM
Just because there is not a lot of people posting doesn't mean that we aren't learning a lot. The poll results are proving a lot. The posts are still great. The only true way of knowing the effect of this poll is by implementing changes and then seeing how things have changed.

To your point about users not giving good feedback, see my blog post (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163922.0).
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: PixieWAttitude on April 12, 2007, 11:05:19 AM
I have to say. When I search for a particular suppor topic, I have had no problems at all finding what I need. Sure I may have to go through the first few pages but I will find it.

I think it's all a matter of choosing the correct keywords when searching. People just use the obvious...can't find what they need, that's where the laziness comes in. The lazy person doesn't want to sift through tons of pages to find the answer to one question they may have so they make a topic. Sure, sometimes it's faster this way.


Another idea that I have seen on another board (Not an SMF board) but when the member types in their topic, there is a popup showing similar topics. This might encourage and stop the double postings of these issues at hand.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on April 12, 2007, 11:20:13 AM
I do not fully agree... If people do not post, then you will never know why did they voted. Worse! Only 24 votes :(

I still defend that most of all, people are lazy. Then imagine I am a lazy guy searching for help:
1 - I don't care about search and make a new topic directly
2 - I try search: "parse error". JEEEZZZ 400 results. I don't feel like go through all the results, so --> new topic
3 - I see a "how to improve support" thread. Vote for? Txaram! "Search fails to return accurate results"

I am sorry if I sound like somehow annoying. But the more I think of this, the more I feel that it's a lost battle from the start.

edit: here is the translation for PT language:
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=164424.0
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 02:12:49 PM
margarett: feel free to make that in to a poll. I will probably be able to understand the poll better than I can people replying to that post ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sirius on April 12, 2007, 03:59:25 PM
there are many type of SMF users , those who have a meaningless forum and are still on version RC1 , those who just like to play with this and screw up their installation in 1 hour and those like me who use it as a business tool and make money with it and have to pay a PHP scripter to fix the problems.

If I have a major problem with my forum, my paying members won't wait 2 days for it to be repaired.    At one time, i have paid here to be a charter member ( i'm french sorry for bad english) and the answers could take up to 2 days to come. So then I go for a search, and I really don't have the time to read 5 threads of 10 pages each to find an answer.
The idea to be able to find an answer posted by a certain person that we trust is great..  this is what i will do from now on because i have seen some great answers. I should of thought about this before ( keep a log of the best helpers)
None the less , keeping all the old posts and irrelevant answers just pollute the forum. At first when I've started my forum many years ago, everything was wild like here... keeping every threads whatever stupid they might be..  then we did end up with a major headache because we had to repeat the same thing all the time since peoples couldn't find their answers anymore by doing a search. So what I did was DELETE and start a new forum where every posts are seen by mods or admins and sometimes whole threads are deleted.
Also i have created a member group named reader's club.. ( they can't post)  this is for those who ask the same question that was asked a few minutes before and is still on the list of recent topics.
Believe me, this work marvelously,  now they make sure they do a basic search before asking a question or at least read the recent topics .
And who does pay the 50$ for support in here ? peoples like me who don't have time to read 10 threads of 10 pages each to find an answer... no wonder why i don't pay anymore.
So you need some trustworthy peoples to be able to delete and purge the useless answers and make a 2 pages thread of a 10 pages mess. True though that you have a hell of a big forum to maintain, a lot of mods would be needed to be able to read every posts as they arrive.  good luck !  ;D
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 12, 2007, 04:05:46 PM
I can agree and disagree with the idea KGIII posted about some sort of 'helper' membergroup... theres a few flaws and a few strengths i see with the idea.  I will list the strengths first.

Mainly,  It would show people who are known to be reliable in support.  It would also be useful as a sort of pool to pull from in the future in the case of a need for support specialists... so in that way, with proper insurance in the integrity of those in the group, you could benefit the operation significantly.  Reduce support topics?  unlikely.  Now, the problems with the system.

Firstly, It could incite anyone that wants to help out to do so just for the position.  I know that sounds dumb but theres a lot of people out there that would do so just to get some sort of status.  I have learned that through many long stretches of service in various communities.  People would join, be excellent members, be IDEAL choices for moderators or site staff... do awesome the first week on the job, then completely die.  Lose all activity, and leave.  After you've spent time and energy and risked your integrity to give them that chance... poof.  I could see it being something more an icon than a useful group if not done correctly.

Secondly, where is the line between 'volunteer helper' and 'support specialist', as support specialists fall into both categories.  Basically you'd have a support specialist with no access, no permissions, just a badge.  Which could lead to the above happening.  I guess the point is, where would the line be drawn? 

I have been mistaken for a support specialist many times already.  This is alarming in the aspect that people OPENLY hand out their login information to the first person willing to help, or even post it in a thread!   Now, not gloating, but i have fixed, installed, or upgraded a good number of forums already and that would not have been possible without that information...  so wheres the medium?  Security, or getting things done.  Not sure how to approach this one.

I see sirius posted whilst i was typing, and a very good post it is, IMO.  Having a database of support threads is an AWESOME idea -- but there's so many meaningless posts that its not funny sometimes.  The problem i see is that not all questions that seem like they're caused by the same thing, are in fact.  for example, a mod package failing to parse or install could be the result of incorrect permissions, or it could be the lack of a temp folder, or it could be a corrupted xml file that wasn't picked up as corrupt by SMF, but still couldn't be parsed.  The only way to know in a thread this sort of thing is to read in context -- and you can't do so if all those posts get deleted.

That said, there are a number of posts that could stand to be removed, but it would be a very long and manual job to do so, there are over 100,000 posts in those boards.

I think thats all for that mini rant :P  Thats just my thoughts and opinions

</long ass post>
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sirius on April 12, 2007, 04:23:46 PM
yes the problem being that , cleaning a forum has to be done from the start, not when you have a huge amount of threads like here...  it would be a MASSIVE undertaking to clean up this forum..

as to your comment :(The only way to know in a thread this sort of thing is to read in context -- and you can't do so if all those posts get deleted.)

What I do is merge the good infos in a messy thread with another thread of the same nature that would fit the subject.  Mind you, i work 10 hours a day shift on my forum and my mods  about 4 hours each. ( and I pay them once in a while with small gifts here and there , money or hardware)
Another problem is that I would never give the login infos to my forum to someone from here whatever his name would be the POPE.
Some peoples with a forum about nothing can afford to give their infos to anyone and everywhere, but not me. My forum is of very secret nature ( not porn don't worry lol) and I don't want any strangers reading anything in there, let alone play with my admin panel and settings. So, being a charter member and allow a staff from here to enter my domain is out of the question, so I pay someone that I trust to fix the php scripts.

So for here I would start by pruning , remove the posts older than 300 days, keep the stickies..  .. example: when christmas will come again,  those old threads about christmas themes won't even fit anymore because all those SMF versions and suggested theme would be way too old. so why keep them ..
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 12, 2007, 04:29:25 PM
I agree, its something that needs to be done from the start.  I just thought i'd put my 2 cents (okay, more like 2 dollars -- that was a rather long post) forward as that is what this post is asking for :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 05:09:48 PM
Without getting too deep in to a discussion about this, because I think discussions should be broken off in to another topic and this topic being used for suggestions...

I am not a fan of KGIII's suggestion of creating another group. For one, I think there are enough groups here already. If people are really that helpful, they will most likely become a member of the team. When we do notice someone being helpful, we give them a little while, then invite them to the team and give them an apprenticeship. The apprenticeship would be the equivalent of KGIII's suggestion.

The idea of reducing the number of topics is exactly what documentation is for. You should always look at the documentation first. The support page (http://www.simplemachines.org/support/) needs to be revamped for this. Regardless, your suggestion has been taken in to account.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 12, 2007, 05:12:15 PM
thats what i'm saying, it'd be like blurring the line... its really unnecessary IMO, hence KGIII's assumption of it being squished :P.

But i like to see the good and bad aspects of an idea.  Theres good things about the idea, and theres bad and unnecessary things.  Figuring out and determining which is which is the determination that must be made.  I guess that was my point :p
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 12, 2007, 05:24:06 PM
Personally I'm not sure I would like to be an official member of the support team though.
My php, Mysql and SMF knowlegde isn't good enough to help in all situations and when you are not an official team meber there are no real obligations to give support.
Although I would feel honoured if you would ask it to me though, and probably will consider it eventually :P
And it will probably also change once I learn more about everything :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 05:30:02 PM
Please lets not turn this in to a discussion about becoming a team member. There are a couple of topics about it around.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 12, 2007, 07:26:05 PM
I voted for "To (sic) enough documentation in the manual" and "Human Laziness".

The issue of better documentation has been raised a few times and responses have been made in other topics. So I won't discuss it any further here.

"Human laziness" is two-fold (or at least so it seems to me). First, some users don't search to see if their problem has happened before and how it has been solved; instead, they just open yet another topic about it. Getting support is not always faster than finding the solution yourself by searching previous topics. Nor do some users explain their problem well enough or post additional information when asked to.

Second, I've seen topics where someone from the support team posts a somewhat vague response and leaves it at that. It has even occurred to me that there might be an unwritten rule about not leaving a "help needed" topic unanswered rather than not leaving it unsolved.

Lest I be misunderstood, I don't think that the team does a sloppy job or that they're incompetent. On the contrary, I truly believe they're amazing. I also know that they're all volunteers and offer SMF support on their free time.

I suggest that, when a team member responds to a help request, he/she sort of assigns him/herself to the topic; that is, they personally make sure (as much as possible) that the topic is followed through and solved, rather than just answered to. Of course, other team members and normal users can offer advice and solutions, but a team member should be (self-)assigned to that topic until it's somehow solved or the user doesn't respond anymore.

P.S. Shouldn't one of the choices be "Not enough documentation in the manual" and not "To enough..."? I think it's "too enough" confusing as it is. :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 12, 2007, 07:45:19 PM
To address concerns of a lack of activity in this thread - I say give it time. There have been some great people giving great feedback and this isn't something that is likely to be resolved quickly or anything but rather something that is grown over time. I have been asking people (in my support posts here and there) if they would consider coming here, voting, and leaving their opinions. I have also added it to my signature for the time being.

So, I will ask:

If you are one of the people who are offering assistance to people then, once in a while, ask them if they would partake in this poll and invite them to leave their opinions.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 12, 2007, 07:45:46 PM
Fixed.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 12, 2007, 07:49:43 PM
Regarding setting up a special membergroup for "unofficial support," I personally think it is not necessary; it can even be misleading and dentrimental to the support process.

As mentioned before, just because someone has posted working solutions quite a few times doesn't necessarily mean that this person is credible enough to give him/her an admin username and password to your forum, for example. If someone abuses their "badge" or whatever, it can damage the credibility of those who "assigned" him/her to the position -- that would be, I guess, the official support team.

I'm happy enough to offer support whenever I'm able to -- of course, also when I'm not too lazy to. :P Giving me a spiffy badge wouldn't change a thing about it.

On a different note: I think there should be more support (official or not) in the SMF Coding Discussion board, both on new mods that people are writing and on approved mods that users are having problems with.

I would like to see the Customization Team deal with some aspects of installation and use of a mod, since they already reviewed it during the approval process (didn't they?)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 12, 2007, 07:52:02 PM
Quote from: KGIII on April 12, 2007, 07:45:19 PM
If you are one of the people who are offering assistance to people then, once in a while, ask them if they would partake in this poll and invite them to leave their opinions.

Sure, I'll do that. ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on April 13, 2007, 04:59:43 AM
I agree (more or less) with all opinions given.
Nevertheless, I think that, if a way to FORCE users to read, search, etc, before posting a new thread is not created, everything is useless. You can create new docs, you can create 2x more "official supporters", whatever. For 95% of common users, they will just ignore it and go directly to a new topic.

Sarge's idea of supporters assign them selfs  to support threads is nice, and I do something like that here (bookmark a topic and follow it). The point is, some times I don't know enough, and I have to leave it as it is.
Also, about the "unanswered" topics... Well, I sure prefer to know that someone at least looked at it and tried to help (even that it's clear that it does not have a clue about the problem :P ), than to have it abandoned...

Still, I must say that the ideia of delete old posts (ok, make it an archive in an hidden section) fits me fantastic. Never thought of that, but it's damn sure a good point! (maybe this time the developers create the mass moving of posts :P )
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 13, 2007, 08:08:14 AM
I think the makeup of the staff makes it very hard to assign yourself to threads. If there is a topic they can't answer, they bring it up in the team boards for help from other team members. They almost always follow up by checking if a topic has been solved. If something goes missed, they will pick it up down the line and post "Has this been resolved" so they can mark the topic as solved.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 13, 2007, 03:55:15 PM
Mindless Meandering Meritable (though) Mumbles:

I have it set to default to notify me of replies and that's the first section of the board I check and probably the most often checked section of the site for me. It would be an interesting experiment to check and see what it would be like if this were the default option - that way more people who are requesting support are notified of responses as it is unlikely that people will tick the box to disable that.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Dannii on April 14, 2007, 02:52:48 AM
I wonder if a public tagging system might make it easier to find topics and answers to problems.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Tristan Perry on April 18, 2007, 04:31:49 PM
It'll always be Human laziness - as you say, nearly all questions have been asked before. However, and I say this as an experienced forum user, how many times have you all joined a forum, and asked a question before searching? I've done it, and I should really know better :P Heck, I tell others to search before posting :P

It depends how willing you are to reduce the amount of duplicate support threads are created - however, and this may need to be re-thought as to not be as rude, although if a common question is asked, reply with something along the lines of "This has been posted before, please use the search feature or support documentation" - heck, maybe this could be added as an automated link for the support group members in the support boards? Either way, this would help reduce the workload and make generally a lazy member-base (that's common across the internet, not particularly these SMF forums) find the answers themselves.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: oliveskate on April 20, 2007, 06:43:11 PM
I think the support is great and fast.
It's a little hard to navigate threw the site, I think. But other wise, I love it!
Awesome support forums!
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 20, 2007, 07:13:15 PM
Any suggestions on how to make it easier to navigate the forums?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 23, 2007, 02:11:47 PM
Quote from: Harro on April 20, 2007, 07:13:15 PM
Any suggestions on how to make it easier to navigate the forums?

I personally very seldom see the front page of either the site or the forum itself. I seem to navigate via the new posts and unread replies more than anything.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Selroth on April 25, 2007, 08:39:11 AM
I'm a bit too tired and fatigued to read through all the posts in this thread, but I wanted to leave my thoughts in hopes to contribute, at least a little bit, before I forget and vanish into the night. 

I've been very, very impressed with SMF - and I haven't even gotten it to work.  The "feel" it has, the power it presents, and the stability it seems to have.   I'm surprised I haven't heard of it before - it should be a lot more popular than it is!  And that's one of the natural weak points that will vanish (at least, I'm having trouble bridging the gap between postnuke and SMF).

Reading through some of these forums, and seeing this thread, I see that you all care about your hobby (or job?) supporting the product, and that excites me.  I mention the points above to hopefully illustrate, at least what I feel, you are doing right (something that's sometimes more important than what you're doing wrong).

When I got hit with errors, I'm left with just a simple error message.  It either didn't give me any deal, or I have no f'n clue what it's talking about or any hints on what to do to fix it.  I don't think it'd be that difficult to include a help file with the system that gives you some recommendations and "common causes" when you click on an error message (like a link).  This isn't always possible, however.  Though, errors typically have keywords and key phrases, and these are what users pop into Google.  Phrases like "Modification Parse Error" are somewhat easy too look-up, so if there is a page dedicated to just that error and possible causes and work-arounds it'd be helpful (assuming it was expanded/updated when new causes are found).  It gets trickier when all a person can pick out of an error is something like "fWrite()" fuction or "broken pipe", but you can tell the user what it does/means and what it relates to (the database?  the php files?  MySQL?  Is it a permission issue or a configuration issue?)

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about though.  But sometimes you have to bring yourself down to my level - the retard level - and try to figure out what I would see in an error message and what I would do with it.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 25, 2007, 05:50:11 PM
Just remember, if we bring ourselves down to your level, you can beat us with experience :P

nah i'm kidding :P

This actually goes hand in hand with my idea of having an index of 'common issues' (see the tips & tricks index to see an idea of how id figure this'd be structured)

The idea basically is this.  have a series of topics dedicated to explaining causes and solutions to common errors and frequently asked support topics.  These topics would be locked and used for indexing only for general information and not support for that error, but to serve as a 'base point' for people experiencing those errors.    In this way, people get general information on common errors they might experience, and may not have to post a support topic at all.

Then having a sticky topic for the index linking to all of those topics that is similar to the tips & tricks index, in alphabetical order.  In this way, the support staff can expand the system in the future as new issues become commonplace. 

This is just an idea thats been floating around in my head for quite some time now.  I would appreciate any and all feedback, as i think (personally) that the idea could be a great contribution and a great deal of help.



I feel that it might
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 25, 2007, 05:58:06 PM
That is what the FAQ section is for ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 25, 2007, 06:01:30 PM
Perhaps.  But seeing as how often people look at the FAQs section of the online manual (or the online manual itself)... :P

I think something needs to be stuck right in people's faces so that they can say 'oh, well i probably should look here first!'

its human laziness, they don't want to look for their answer -- they just want their board fixed.  That is my opinion though :P.


maybe a 'troubleshooting' section for the online manual, and some sort of link that is in plain view of people before they post topics.  I think my idea is more leaning towards some sort of troubleshooting index than an actual FAQ, although i suppose for terms of redundancy it is the same general idea
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 06:02:20 PM
faster response time for support section.

yea that is true blackmage that is so true. im trying to get my friends board fixed too....but apparently noone bothers to look at my post, so im stuck here...waiting.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 25, 2007, 06:40:06 PM
A faster response time for support? I am trying to lessen the amount of support topics, not increase it.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 06:44:21 PM
what i mean is, if there was a faster response time, people would look at the topic instead of posting a new one. Btw, you could just make a sticky with like all the general problems.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 25, 2007, 06:50:26 PM
that was what my idea was... for an index of extremely common issues.   See my lengthy post a few posts up

I think for maximum exposure adding ONE sticky to General English Support board for the index would be the best way to do it.  As mentioned, very few check the documentation.  So i feel that steps need to be taken to enhance the exposure to the online manual, as well.   

I think that'd be most effective in stopping the majority of duplicate topics is such a topic -- again, my opinion.

Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 06:52:10 PM
I so agree with BlackMage, since right now I would GLADLY look at one of those lengthly posts to try and get my answer to fix my problem. ARG, response time is slow.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 25, 2007, 06:54:14 PM
Why would there be less topics? You mean people double posting or bumping? I don't think that is our biggest problem.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 06:56:05 PM
because, people would look at it and see if the answer is solved already. Now if the answer is PLAINLY there already, and they still post, then you should actually ban them
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 25, 2007, 07:02:07 PM
The problem is that people are asking the same questions repeatedly. It is easier to deal with those rude people that bump posts without giving people a chance to reply. We can a.) lock your post b.) post ban you c.) perma-ban you.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 07:06:42 PM
well, if you already know what you want and your stubborn about it then why not just use your ideas? Why have this? HMM?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 25, 2007, 07:12:34 PM
Have a look at the sticky topics (some of them are locked too) in Mambo/Joomla Bridge Support (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=77.0). See how the Combined Readme and Bridge FAQ are written.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 25, 2007, 07:18:08 PM
(to groundup) yes but i think thats a little extreme.  They're just looking for help and not seeing a plain resource, i feel.  WE know of the online manual.  They may not, thats what i'm saying.

There is no one answer to the subject, as I see it.  There are multiple issues at hand and likewise would require multiple solutions.

My idea is, someone comes to General English Support.  They see a post "Common issues and how to solve them".  The general user might say "oh, well lets take a look"

They open the topic, they are presented with an index of what we would see as commonly asked topics... many of these commonly asked topics are generally easy to solve... so say joe user sees, "How to move SMF from one host to another".  They click that link -- it takes them to the online manual section for that.  Or, they see, 'how to add tabs to the navigation menu', the click, and it takes them to the online manual entry for that.  Or a case where, for example, someone is looking for how to make mods work with their custom theme.  Someone clicks that topic, it takes them to a topic, which is locked (so you dont get 70 bazillion replies of 'do this for me' or similar, but remains STRICTLY informational.) with one link to the online manual for manual installation of mods, and one link to one of the mod parsers, and some general relevant information for people looking to do so.

Basically what i'm saying is, Frequently Asked & Answered Support Topics (FAST? :P)  Its basically an extension of the online manual into the boards perhaps to make relevance of some of the links.  Thats what i was suggesting.  Its basically another face of the Online Manual with commonly used references and such.  And in some cases, links to topics which have relevance to what they might be looking for.

I think in that alone would reduce the number of duplicate topics by reducing how often people need ask the SAME GENERAL QUESTION

Fact is, this issue is never going to be completely solved, but i think this might be a solution that may offer some padding?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 07:22:58 PM
Now, if there was a reputation button, Id go mad in adding BlackMages reputation.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 25, 2007, 10:31:18 PM
BlackMage: I think your idea is a good idea. Although, I think it would be better as a link to the FAQs on the doc site. It makes sense to consolidate documentation.

lilgoldfish: am I being stubborn? I have given all suggestions an equal amount of respect. I take quite a bit of offense to you calling me stubborn. IMO, your suggestion doesn't address the problem. In fact, it adds to it. I was more or less tongue in cheek when I was writing about bumping topics because you bumped your topic twice in the span of two or so hours. I think that is quite rude and you need to understand that we have lives and have other matters that need to be addressed. Your post is a coding question and I refuse to address questions from people that don't have the decency to consider other people.

Once again, the problem is that the Support team can only answer so many questions and there are too many for them to answer. With more people using SMF, the problem grows. There are people making 1000s of posts a month constantly repeating themselves. What is the cause of this? The possible causes that we have come up with in a brain storm are in the poll. If you have other causes to the problem, please bring them up. If you have solutions to the problem or solutions to fix the causes, please bring them up.

Please, do not bring up that support is not fast enough. That isn't part of this problem or a cause to this problem. That is a totally separate issue. If support is way too slow for you, trying searching. Then feel free to buy a Charter Membership. Charter Members receive priority support.

Sorry for my curtness, but I cannot stand being called names. Same goes for calling names to anyone here that spends an infinite amount of time answering the same questions over and over and over.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 25, 2007, 10:47:26 PM
I can agree as well, the documentation should be consolidated.  But how could we do something similar while still making it VISIBLE?  that was my main thing... i don't think people are getting the impression that many of these topics are very very common, answers are easily found by searching, and are answered on a nearly daily basis. 

Id like a section of the FAQ for such 'common problems' questions though, i think that would benefit most, in my opinion. 

But how to bring it to be more easily visible... i see suggestions about some sort of context checking, but what about the overhead of such an option?  Its a good idea in theory, but execution is important too... hmm...

I'll do some brainstorming and see what i can come up with
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 11:12:13 PM
whoa, dude, once i saw that your can only bump thread every 24hours I stopped AND i deleted my post buddy. and no i didnt bump it twice, can you not count? Actually no, if you had faster support, people wouldnt be bumping their thread trying to get people on the support team to answer...and you know its true. If it was faster, i wouldnt have bumped. BUT, when i realized i couldnt bump i stoped and deleted, and yes im trying to help solve the problem even though you dont think i am. maybe because you block peoples suggestions, just because I registered today.


btw, i just finished reading you post >.< i was answering while i was reading. If you dont like being called names then I think you should either:
TELL THEM NOT TO.
SUCK IT UP.
JUST DONT POST AND YOU WONT BE CALLED NAMES.

I get called names, i suck it up or i piss them off.

So, anways, my bad if i "hurt" your feelings, I wont call you stubbon, alrite?
Title: Add a Related Topics Feature
Post by: destalk on April 25, 2007, 11:20:50 PM
I think what would also be really helpful is one of those "related topics" features at the bottom of a thread. vBulletin has this option and on forums that I visit with that feature enabled, if I don't find what I am looking for in one topic, I often find the answer from one of those links and it stops me from starting a duplicate post.

I know there is a mod that does this, but lots of people have had problems getting it to work and it's always better if the feature is built into SMF. SMF forums with heldesk/ tech support themes would really benefit from this IMHO.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 11:25:31 PM
Yea that would be good too.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 25, 2007, 11:47:47 PM
Hmm... There is a tagging system in the mods... I am not sure if this has been raised prior in this thread but I'd say that too is a good idea.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Dannii on April 25, 2007, 11:51:37 PM
Quote from: eldʌkaː on April 14, 2007, 02:52:48 AMI wonder if a public tagging system might make it easier to find topics and answers to problems.
I think tags would be great ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 25, 2007, 11:56:54 PM
I agree.  That was part of my brainstorming just now
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: vbgamer45 on April 26, 2007, 12:01:13 AM
I think it boils down to these two for most people
"Human laziness.  - They don't even attempt to look for answers or search. I think its about 90% of most people they want someone else to do the work for them.

"Don't know what to search for". - Some people do not know what to search for. Generally most topics can be found with a couple keywords.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: lilgoldfish on April 26, 2007, 12:02:09 AM
I agree, also the search button is to vague. I search broken links and I got all this stuff I dont need appearing first...
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 26, 2007, 01:20:42 AM
Quote from: lilgoldfish on April 26, 2007, 12:02:09 AM
I agree, also the search button is to vague. I search broken links and I got all this stuff I dont need appearing first...

I guess that's addressed by Search order: "Most recent topics first". The older the topics, the higher the chance that posted links are broken.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Selroth on April 26, 2007, 04:43:18 AM
OK, it's me with another silly idea while not reading everyone's posts...  Sorry.

I think a support-ticket system would work well for many reasons, but primarily 2.  1) it invites users to use it moreso than posting a new thread, so you're targetting human laziness there.  2) If the support ticket system allowed you to select the area/theme of the problem, some selections can bring up an additional list to choose from (with "other" at the bottom).  After many of these, it can be obvious what their problem is and the support-ticket system can automatically present a solution, or related reading and the user can look at those and maybe get a solution in minutes, or continue to a person that will help them where they can get a solution in a few hours or days. 

People WOULD rather read before asking another person (after all, they'd have to read the solution presented by the person), but they'd rather ask another person than search around.  Maybe opening a "support ticket" could be that entire search process already done for the most common issues.  But, all of this is just my perspective and opinion.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: 青山 素子 on April 26, 2007, 12:29:20 PM
Quote from: lilgoldfish on April 25, 2007, 11:12:13 PM
whoa, dude, once i saw that your can only bump thread every 24hours I stopped AND i deleted my post buddy. and no i didnt bump it twice, can you not count? Actually no, if you had faster support, people wouldnt be bumping their thread trying to get people on the support team to answer...and you know its true. If it was faster, i wouldnt have bumped. BUT, when i realized i couldnt bump i stoped and deleted, and yes im trying to help solve the problem even though you dont think i am. maybe because you block peoples suggestions, just because I registered today.

If you are willing to pay my salary, I'll gladly work full-time on answering support questions. Until then, I have to work to be able to pay for the electricity, internet access, etc that allows me to give support for free.

Support is so slow because of the volume of topics and the small support team, some of whom don't post support much (I'm guilty here too). The reason for the small team is that there aren't many people around who post quality support on a consistent basis. The helpless outnumber the skilled by a great number.

The point of this topic is how to make support faster by reducing the volume of posts. The big question is why so many people posting new topics, and what can be done to get them finding the existing support here. Simply saying that support needs to be faster (while ignoring the reality that it would either lower support quality or just be impractical) misses the point.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 26, 2007, 12:55:10 PM
More Mindless Meandering - Perhaps of Value:

We could also start with making the post page template have, in fairly large letters, something akin to the following:

"Before posting please make sure that you have searched the forum first. If you have not then please click here."

The "here" would open in a new window or, if we wanted to be fancy, would open a search box which, when used, would take them to a new search window.

This could even be done in much the same manner as the intersitial (spelling) ads where you must click something prior to proceeding to a new page or the page with content.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 26, 2007, 03:12:35 PM
Think this has been mentioned before.
I think it's a good idea.
Also put a link to the online manual there :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 27, 2007, 02:08:02 AM
To take the idea even further, what about creating a whole FAQ category or board (NOT as a child board of another board), with each topic covering a specific issue and solution?

Unlike the Docs link, the FAQ board should be visible in the board index. The Support Team could post new topics in the FAQ and the Documentation Team would review and migrate them to the Docs. After that, already covered topics can be linked (or even redirected) to the appropriate section in the online documentation.

Every support board should have a child board pointing to the FAQ and the profile setting "Show child boards on every page inside boards, not just the first." in the Look and Layout section should be enabled for new members by default. ;) This way, FAQ links would sort of hit new members right in the eye at some point, and they wouldn't really have an excuse for not searching there before they post.

The above implementation might seem a bit redundant, but think about it: the Docs link is not very visible. ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 27, 2007, 02:15:50 AM
Quote from: Sarge on April 27, 2007, 02:08:02 AM
The above implementation might seem a bit redundant, but think about it: the Docs link is not very visible. ;)
So, instead of doing even more work with updating and creating extra documentation, maybe we should increase the visibility of the doc link ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on April 27, 2007, 03:28:46 AM
Quote from: groundup on April 27, 2007, 02:15:50 AMSo, instead of doing even more work with updating and creating extra documentation, maybe we should increase the visibility of the doc link ;)
Bit useless to have a great doc site if nobody finds it ;)
The doc site is a great source of information. But to few users use it before they post a question.
Probably there are many users that don't know about the doc site before they post a question.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Dannii on April 27, 2007, 03:47:36 AM
What would you think of better urls, that would allow you to post these sorts of links?

http://docs.simplemachines.org/admin/
http://docs.simplemachines.org/faq/
http://docs.simplemachines.org/features/
http://docs.simplemachines.org/convert/
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 27, 2007, 04:16:55 AM
Quote from: Harro on April 27, 2007, 03:28:46 AM
Quote from: groundup on April 27, 2007, 02:15:50 AMSo, instead of doing even more work with updating and creating extra documentation, maybe we should increase the visibility of the doc link ;)
Bit useless to have a great doc site if nobody finds it ;)
The doc site is a great source of information. But to few users use it before they post a question.
Probably there are many users that don't know about the doc site before they post a question.
I just said that. Instead of wasting time creating redundant documentation, we can better use time making the docs more visible.

Quote from: eldʌkaː on April 27, 2007, 03:47:36 AM
What would you think of better urls, that would allow you to post these sorts of links?

http://docs.simplemachines.org/admin/
http://docs.simplemachines.org/faq/
http://docs.simplemachines.org/features/
http://docs.simplemachines.org/convert/
I like it.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 27, 2007, 04:51:21 AM
Quote from: groundup on April 27, 2007, 02:15:50 AM
Quote from: Sarge on April 27, 2007, 02:08:02 AM
The above implementation might seem a bit redundant, but think about it: the Docs link is not very visible. ;)
So, instead of doing even more work with updating and creating extra documentation...

Not quite. What I mean is creating a FAQ board/category; every valuable topic that is not in the docs yet could be posted there by the Support Team. When the Documentation Team reviews a topic and adds it to the Docs, they just change the topic title into a redirect to the added article in the Docs.

In other words: the Support Team members read forum posts (they do it all the time, right?) and add valuable ones to the FAQ board. The Docs Team reviews topics in the FAQ board and adds them to the Docs.

Logical and structured, isn't it? This way there's no redundant and inconsistent content. Just some links are duplicated, with FAQ links pointing to documentation articles.

Anyway, the Docs link should be more visible.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on April 27, 2007, 05:39:19 AM
I have been trying to encourage the support team to create docs. The doc team can then edit them. So effectively, the same thing as you suggested. Since it is close to my idea, I must like it ;) (good idea). The Support Team is giving FAQs to the Doc team btw. They are doing it in the team boards though. Maybe we should make that a little more open so others can see it and possibly even create a summary of the post that can become a document.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on April 27, 2007, 05:47:03 AM
Well, I still think it's a good idea to create a FAQ category/board. Almost everyone browsing the board index would see it.

The way it currently is, someone has to find and click on the Docs link to see its content. On the other hand, a FAQ category can be set up with several boards and child boards that would be all visible at first sight in the board index.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Ace3 on April 29, 2007, 09:48:58 PM
I think the big problem is just Human laziness.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 04:23:02 PM
Not sure if you guys are looking for replies from SMF end users, this thread reads more like a brainstorm session for the SMF support team...but here I go :P

I voted for Search Fails to Return Accurate Results, Don't Know What to Search For, and Other.

Search Fails to Return Accurate Results/Don't Know What to Search For:
These 2 options are intertwined. If you don't know what to search for, then the search function will return inaccurate results. I know to only use 2 or 3 words when searching, but I still end up with pages of either inaccurate or irrelevant results. For example, after searching prior to posting, I once posted a question about a recurring action message that I had been seeing appear on occasion next to members' and unregistered guests' names in my Users Online panel. I received a curt response that that topic had been dealt with and answered previously. And that was the whole extent of the response - no quick hint about what board to start looking in, no clue as to a search term I could use that would bring up the relevant thread. I had already tried doing searches before posting (without the quotes) on 'who's online,' 'action message,' etc. and all I received were completely irrelevant results that had nothing to do with the particular action message I had been seeing. I ended up giving up altogether because I couldn't find any relevant information anywhere, despite having been curtly told that the answer was on here, and despite having done searches before posting.

The point being, if somebody can't find what they need by searching, the chances are really good they're going to open up a new help topic about it, and that help topic may well be a duplicate. I can relate to the SMF team rolling their eyes when they see another post on x topic that they've answered before, but in my case at least, I did search before posting and couldn't find anything. And having done searches before posting, it sure didn't help to merely receive a curt response that the topic had already been dealt with, without giving me even a quick hint about where to look or a search term to use.

Other:
I selected this option because IMHO, 9 times out of 10, SMF documents and support responses are way too technical and too hard to understand. I'm not new to computers or their workings by any means (I've been using computers daily for longer than BlackMage has been alive, for example :P ) but I am new to the workings of SMF, .php scripts, FTP, etc. Like Sirius commented, "...(sic) someone tell him to do some PHP editing and the newbie can barely install SMF, let alone some PHP scripts.."

I couldn't have said it better myself. For example, when I was having trouble upgrading my forum from SMF 1.0.9 to SMF 1.1.2, I was receiving support responses in my posted help thread that I could not make heads nor tails of. The SMF support team member's responses grew progressively more irritated each time I said I didn't understand what they were talking about. That would be because they automatically assumed that I already had a darn good understanding of FTP, .php scripts, etc. when in fact I thought it was very obvious from my initial request for support that I didn't have a damn clue what to do.

Or take this example from the Languages page of the Online Manual
http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?topic=395

"To have strings also available in languages like German or Thai, you will need the $txt variable. This is a lot like $context, except that it stores only a list of language strings available. To use our above example, you might use something like $txt['sendtopic_to_friend']. In your template, it would look a bit like this:"

You're talking about stuff like "$txt variable" and "contextual data" and manually adjusting language strings in one's Theme file - if somebody can't understand the basics of SMF, then they're sure as heck not going to understand that page in the Online Manual!

Point being, having an Online Manual is great. But if it's been written in tech language by SMF team members who have little or no understanding of what it means to be brand-new to SMF, .php, FTP, etc. then people are just going to keep opening up new help topics because they don't understand the Online Manual.

I for one am always happy to see BlackMage answer me if I've asked for help, because he makes an effort to talk in layman's terms.

As for the members in this thread who are critical of other members who give out their FTP and forum access information to those on here who offer to help privately - when you're new to SMF and you can't understand the Online Manual and you can't understand the response from the SMF support team member and your forum has been down for days and you have a lot of people counting on you to get it up and running again, believe me, you're going to take any offer of help you can get. IMHO you have to use good judgement and common sense if you're going to accept a private offer of help.

As far as human laziness contributes to the duplicated help requests - yes, I'm sure that there are people who simply open up a new thread rather than take the time to do a search and sift through the results. But right now there's no way to separate those people from the ones who did do one or more searches before posting and either couldn't find what they were looking for, or didn't understand what they found.

Implementing the suggestion from earlier in this thread of a Help Ticket system - and adding in an interstitial FAQ or answer database -  might help with that. I'm sure most of us have used the Customer Service page of a website that first asks for the nature of your problem in 10 words or fewer, and when you type that in, it brings up a page of possible basic problems that may correspond to yours (all clickable links, so if you see your problem, you can click on it and go straight to a solution page). If your specific problem isn't there, then the website provides a "My problem isn't here" link which you can click on to go to a page that has a list of more advanced or in-depth problems (all clickable, leading to solution pages).  And if you still can't find your specific problem, then you get to the page where you can contact the company. Perhaps SMF could bring in something like that - initial request for help brings up a page with big list of basic problems about SMF (with name of problem being clickable and leading to a solution page). Problem not found, next click brings up a page with big list of more detailed/advanced/in-depth problems. Problem still not found, member can file a Help Ticket. Under ideal circumstances, that would mean the SMF help team would only be responding to members who honestly could not find their problem listed on the basic or advanced page.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 30, 2007, 05:41:41 PM
Quote from: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 04:23:02 PM
Not sure if you guys are looking for replies from SMF end users, this thread reads more like a brainstorm session for the SMF support team...but here I go :P

Perfect and thank you. While it may LOOK like that we are taking YOUR ideas and trying to mesh them with what we see. What we are looking for IS exactly that - we want YOUR ideas. We don't get to see it as an end user. (Though most of us started that way actually.)

To try to put it into perspective... You can ask, "How can I show a guest certain information?"

To which I could easily respond, "Search and you shall find."
Or I could respond, "echo the context?"
Or I can type, again, "the code is if $context(['user']['is_guest']) echo ' **** '; and where the **** is your HTML" which I have typed a million times.

The first is not good.
The second is worse.
The third is better but will baffle a newbie.

(I am kind of touching on all of your responses at once.)

The search results... HOPEFULLY slated to be worked on. There seem to be ISSUES with the search results so, yes, that and, HOPEFULLY, we'll find a way to include a way to help people search effectively.

Another is the, and bear with me, professionalism of the support provided. We, and I include me in this, have been known to give an answer that is easy for one of us to comprehend but not so easy for other people. On the other side of that is that if we give one that is too simplistic then it becomes as if we are "speaking down to the person."

With the ending of your last post, well, that seems like a great idea but we have multiple languages AND people seeking to ask for help in languages they don't speak well. I have to wonder where that would go... *sighs*

In other words - we don't have the answers and, yes, we are discussing this openly as a community not just as a team and yes VERY MUCH SO we want your input. Thank you VERY much for taking the time to write all that and please DO feel free to join in on the conversation as it progresses. I'd love to see this topic stay "live" and evolve. That way, hopefully, improvements are on-going.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on April 30, 2007, 06:26:36 PM
I agree with some of Blackhawk40's ideas. Yes, sometimes it can be hard to understand certain answers from the team. True.

But it's also true that if you (please note that "you" is here a generic person) are not familiar with ftp for instance, you should *try* to learn a bit how to use it.
If the support team has to explain how to ftp and edit your files... Well, then the team may have 3 times extra members :P
The same for php editing. Most of the times it's like: search *code* add after *code*
All I learned for php (and you can be shure its just a little little bit) was modding and upgrading phpBB and now SMF. And I can assure you I am no Einstein :P

Your example for languages is nice, but you sure agree that is not for a newbie. A newbie will not want to play with language files (except for MODs, but here will be search *code* add *code* :) )

As for your oppinion on search, very nice ;) props

I would suggest some guides for the common things. I wrote a guide for manual MOD installation for my language. Used a bit of the "official" guide, but used my own text, screenshots, examples, etc. It produces a more "simple" guide, and nice for users who are not comfortable with english.
For english, well, there is the docs page. But (most) people are lazy to read it :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 30, 2007, 06:42:00 PM
To touch on the above... A newbie MAY have to play with those because they use alternative languages and the package manager makes it so easy to use modifications that few can resist the lure.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 09:10:37 PM
Quote from: margarett on April 30, 2007, 06:26:36 PMBut it's also true that if you (please note that "you" is here a generic person) are not familiar with ftp for instance, you should *try* to learn a bit how to use it. If the support team has to explain how to ftp and edit your files..
I do see your point, but I believe you may not have considered that the vast majority of end users choose SMF based on only 2 things: it's free of charge and it's reliable. I think you will find that the majority of people who are new to SMF are as gobsmacked as I was to find out there are such things as FTP, cPanel, .php scripting, etc. that go along with SMF (and no, I did not choose SMF for my website, the previous admin did. Not to say that I wouldn't have chosen SMF had I been in charge at the time, just saying that when I took the website over, I was completely unaware that I would have to be dealing with FTP, etc.) And I do agree to a point that people should be self-educating. But if, through total lack of practical experience with SMF, FTP, etc., a member can't understand the online manual, and can't understand what the help team member has just said, and knows just enough to know that messing about with things on their own can be fatal to their website - then that member doesn't, IMO, have a lot of opportunity to learn.

QuoteA newbie will not want to play with language files
May not want to, agreed, but sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise. My site's language files did not get properly updated during the upgrade from 1.0.9 to 1.1.2 and I didn't have the faintest idea how to fix them. Meaning...I had to play with language files. And then beg BlackMage to fix them for me  :P

QuoteAs for your oppinion on search, very nice ;) props
Thank you  :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: 青山 素子 on April 30, 2007, 09:32:19 PM
Quote from: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 09:10:37 PM
But if, through total lack of practical experience with SMF, FTP, etc., a member can't understand the online manual, and can't understand what the help team member has just said, and knows just enough to know that messing about with things on their own can be fatal to their website - then that member doesn't, IMO, have a lot of opportunity to learn.

Considering FTP is basically needed for uploading other files to a website (leaving out web upload scripts for now), unless the user is running just a forum, I would hope they have some experience with FTP, even if it was just through a tool like Dreamweaver or similar.

I may sound elitist, but if a user is that scared of messing up their site that they can't be bothered to learn, they aren't the right person to be running it and should find someone to manage things for them and maybe offer some in-person training.

Computing has become much much easier than what it used to be (anyone regularly use command-line FTP any more?), but it still requires something of a skillset. People have to learn how to operate other things, why should websites be any different? Maybe we could, however, point to or create some good general tutorials?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 09:34:09 PM
Quote from: KGIII on April 30, 2007, 05:41:41 PMTo try to put it into perspective... You can ask, "How can I show a guest certain information?"

To which I could easily respond, "Search and you shall find."
Or I could respond, "echo the context?"
Or I can type, again, "the code is if $context(['user']['is_guest']) echo ' **** '; and where the **** is your HTML" which I have typed a million times.

The first is not good.
The second is worse.
The third is better but will baffle a newbie.
To hell with just the third option baffling a newbie, I said "Huh??" to the second option as well! :P

QuoteOn the other side of that is that if we give one that is too simplistic then it becomes as if we are "speaking down to the person."
Speaking for myself, I would far sooner have someone from the help team give me an answer that's more simplistic than an answer that goes on at length about inserting x into code string y that just leaves me sitting here going "Huh??"

IMHO, when one is dealing with people who are known to be largely new to SMF and everything that goes with it, it's always better to stick to the KISS principle (keep it simple). That's what I do on my own website (ah, it's sure good to be an expert there, because I'm sure not an expert here!). I have members asking me all the time for help in doing things (posting, searching, etc.) that I consider to be the most basic of things, things that seem glaringly obvious to me. But obviously these things are not obvious to the person asking me for help, so I have to swallow my irritation and start at the very beginning with them.

QuoteThank you VERY much for taking the time to write all that and please DO feel free to join in on the conversation as it progresses.
Thanks, appreciate that. I have also tried to get involved in the community and help other members who have asked easy questions that I know I have the right answer for. I don't have the knowledge to help out very often, but I like to do my bit in partial return for the help I've gotten here.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 30, 2007, 09:42:02 PM
And we thank you for your help :)

I honestly try to do things from the standpoint that someone might not know what i'm talking about.  *try* being the operative word. 

I must just be patient :P

Although, when patience runs out... hehe thats what the drumset is for :D
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 09:58:43 PM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on April 30, 2007, 09:32:19 PMConsidering FTP is basically needed for uploading other files to a website (leaving out web upload scripts for now), unless the user is running just a forum, I would hope they have some experience with FTP, even if it was just through a tool like Dreamweaver or similar.
I personally had no experience whatsoever with FTP until SMF went to 1.1.2. I took over my website from the previous admin in August 2006 and up until the change to 1.1.2, I did everything with one click through the Package Manager. I'm running a contest website (which is what you call "just a forum," I guess) and had no need prior to 1.1.2 to deal with FTP, .php scripting, etc.

QuoteI may sound elitist, but if a user is that scared of messing up their site that they can't be bothered to learn, they aren't the right person to be running it
I believe you may have missed the point I was trying to make. I'll try to be more clear, and use myself as the example this time instead of people in general (although I realize your reply referred to people in general).

It's not that I "can't be bothered" to learn anything. On the contrary, I have learned a great deal since being thrown in off the deep end with the upgrade to 1.1.2. But am I confident enough to go into my cPanel and start fiddling around with stuff on my own? Hell no, because I've read enough anguished posts on here made by people new to SMF who tried doing things completely on their own and lost their entire website. I have 50 people relying on me to keep my website up and running, so from that perspective, yes - I'm very afraid of messing up my website. I would far sooner ask for help here and have the SMF help team think I'm the wrong person to be running my website, than fiddle around with things on my own and possibly destroy what 50 members are counting on me to maintain.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 10:00:08 PM
Quote from: BlackMage on April 30, 2007, 09:42:02 PMAlthough, when patience runs out... hehe thats what the drumset is for
I thought that was what your Nintendo Wii was for  :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 30, 2007, 10:13:50 PM
That too :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on April 30, 2007, 10:38:30 PM
I worry two things... Again, elitist...

Fantastico and, I am going to disagree (slightly) with BlackHawk on this one, I think many just chose it because of free, cooler name, shorter name, the graphics were neat, etc... I don't think they looked at stability, security, ease of use, etc... I did? I picked it up, first time, as I was tired of getting screwed by phpBB2's security issues.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: KGIII on April 30, 2007, 10:38:30 PMI worry two things... Again, elitist...

Fantastico and,
Did something get lost there, KGIII?  :o

Run that by me again, what are the 2 things you worry about
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on April 30, 2007, 11:17:09 PM
He's extremely tired, so if it doesn't make sense, thats why :P

Fantastico is a one-click installer for many software things -- it allows one to install SMF without ever using FTP or phpmyadmin.  I think he is saying that the problem therein lies that they never gain the experience of doing so and could have problems later.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 11:32:42 PM
Quote from: BlackMage on April 30, 2007, 11:17:09 PMHe's extremely tired, so if it doesn't make sense, thats why
Gotcha  ;)

QuoteFantastico is a one-click installer for many software things -- it allows one to install SMF without ever using FTP or phpmyadmin.
I think that explains how the previous admin of my website installed SMF. Also explains why they had no idea what I was talking about when I asked about FTP etc. for the upgrade to 1.1.2  ::)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: 青山 素子 on April 30, 2007, 11:57:26 PM
Quote from: Blackhawk40 on April 30, 2007, 09:58:43 PM
It's not that I "can't be bothered" to learn anything. On the contrary, I have learned a great deal since being thrown in off the deep end with the upgrade to 1.1.2. But am I confident enough to go into my cPanel and start fiddling around with stuff on my own? Hell no, because I've read enough anguished posts on here made by people new to SMF who tried doing things completely on their own and lost their entire website. I have 50 people relying on me to keep my website up and running, so from that perspective, yes - I'm very afraid of messing up my website. I would far sooner ask for help here and have the SMF help team think I'm the wrong person to be running my website, than fiddle around with things on my own and possibly destroy what 50 members are counting on me to maintain.

Perhaps that wasn't the best word, but I couldn't think of one better. I don't mind people asking for help, it is the helpless ones that annoy me. I would much prefer to have a user check their stuff and see an option that looks right and post a question if it is the right thing than a user that doesn't even want to do that. You certainly seem to fall into the former group, and that is good because that group usually turns out to become knowledgeable and better able to cope with possible issues.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on May 01, 2007, 01:51:18 AM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on April 30, 2007, 11:57:26 PMI would much prefer to have a user check their stuff and see an option that looks right and post a question if it is the right thing than a user that doesn't even want to do that.
Ah, I see what you mean - sort of an "SMF helps those who help themselves" approach  ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: 青山 素子 on May 01, 2007, 11:03:22 AM
Quote from: Blackhawk40 on May 01, 2007, 01:51:18 AM
Ah, I see what you mean - sort of an "SMF helps those who help themselves" approach  ;)

Indeed. It is very hard to solve problems without that. In an old topic I was in, someone wanted a step-by-step on backup of the SMF database. Now, each host has their db tools in a different place, so without knowing that host, it would be very difficult to guess. So, the general backup instructions were linked to and the user was asked to read over them and see what they could make out. Instead of looking at their host's tools and either looking for something similar or asking the host where to find it, they insisted that they must receive hand-holding. That led to some interesting drama that wouldn't have resulted if only they had at least made an effort on their part to just look.

But really, we should get back on topic, which is to determine why so many support topics are created (especially duplicates) and what can be done to lower this volume.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 01, 2007, 11:18:56 AM
BlackMage got it pretty well. Fantastico (or any one-click installation process) has been good in a lot of ways. It has exposed people to the value of web-based software for their sites and given greater exposure to SMF. However... It has also, at that same time, lowered the required skillset and enabled people who have little or no skills in this area to install it. I realize that this may sound untoward but this single click installation process has resulted in people who are over their heads when it comes to even some of the more basic things and thus increased the support load with repeated questions and basic questions that are often covered many times over and even in the documentation.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Blackhawk40 on May 01, 2007, 02:47:54 PM
Quote from: KGIII on May 01, 2007, 11:18:56 AMI realize that this may sound untoward but this single click installation process has resulted in people who are over their heads when it comes to even some of the more basic things
Doesn't sound untoward to me. I've already freely admitted that I was in way over my head just trying to upgrade from 1.0.9 to 1.1.2. But by diligently reading everybody else's help threads and the responses, and looking at the Online Manual, and some private tutorial from an exceptionally helpful member of the support team, and - yes - some anxiety-inducing fiddling around on my own, I've managed to learn a lot more than I knew a few months ago.

Staying on topic though, it really sounds to me from what KGIII, BlackMage, and Motoko-chan have said, that the SMF 'Help' section needs to be big, bold, extensive, and in our (the members') faces. Imho, the word HELP is far more of an attention-getter than the word DOCS. After all, what do the vast majority of the people who post support requests on here want - do they want DOCS? No, they want HELP.

(Kind of relates back to what I said earlier about the KISS principle. Okay, it relates for me  :P)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: oliveskate on May 01, 2007, 09:33:11 PM
I know my navigation better now, and the support is great. Thanks again!
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 02, 2007, 04:37:31 AM
One way to make it easier is by allowing for urls like "index.php?search=foo". So, I quickly hacked that up...

open up index.php and search for...
// Action and board are both empty... BoardIndex!
if (empty($board) && empty($topic))


add before
// We're searching.
if (!empty($_REQUEST['search']))
{
require_once($sourcedir . 'Search.php');
return 'PlushSearch2';
}


PS: I didn't test this
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 02, 2007, 05:12:17 AM
Quote from: Blackhawk40 on May 01, 2007, 02:47:54 PM
Imho, the word HELP is far more of an attention-getter than the word DOCS. After all, what do the vast majority of the people who post support requests on here want - do they want DOCS? No, they want HELP.

I agree, at least from an end user's perspective. A link that says Docs is somehow reminiscent to RTFM -- which is often (though not always correctly) associated with the idea of an obscure, technical and lengthy manual that end users would so rather have not to go through.

Actually, the SMF documentation is very good (at least as reference) and quite readable.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 03, 2007, 11:59:01 AM
Quote from: groundup on May 02, 2007, 04:37:31 AM
One way to make it easier is by allowing for urls like "index.php?search=foo". So, I quickly hacked that up...

open up index.php and search for...
// Action and board are both empty... BoardIndex!
if (empty($board) && empty($topic))


add before
// We're searching.
if (!empty($_REQUEST['search'])
{
require_once($sourcedir . 'Search.php');
return 'PlushSearch2';
}


That gives me this error;
QuoteParse error: syntax error, unexpected '{' in /home/user/public_html/forum/index.php on line 281
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 03, 2007, 12:07:10 PM
Quote from: destalk on May 03, 2007, 11:59:01 AM
That gives me this error;
QuoteParse error: syntax error, unexpected '{' in /home/user/public_html/forum/index.php on line 281

You probably didn't include the } (curly brace) from the code by groundup. ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 03, 2007, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: Sarge on May 03, 2007, 12:07:10 PM
Quote from: destalk on May 03, 2007, 11:59:01 AM
That gives me this error;
QuoteParse error: syntax error, unexpected '{' in /home/user/public_html/forum/index.php on line 281

You probably didn't include the } (curly brace) from the code by groundup. ;)

I definitely did.

// We're searching.
              if (!empty($_REQUEST['search'])
               {
                        require_once($sourcedir . 'Search.php');
                      return 'PlushSearch2';
               }
// Action and board are both empty... BoardIndex!
if (empty($board) && empty($topic))
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 03, 2007, 02:50:35 PM
Ah yes. There's a missing ) (closing bracket) in the if statement in the posted code:


if (!empty($_REQUEST['search'])


should be:

if (!empty($_REQUEST['search']))
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: jumpenjuhosaphat on May 03, 2007, 04:09:57 PM
First off, I think that the support here could be used as a business model.  I've never experienced the amount of support that I get here, you might think you guys were charging for this support...:)

I think that laziness is the biggest factor, and I don't think that there is anything that you could do short of charging for advice that would change that.  Sometime I'll do a search for something, and the results won't be what I'm looking for.  It can be difficult to form your needs into a simple search sometimes.  One thing that might help is if there were a selectable option after the search is performed that asks if the search was useful, and also asks for comments.  That way you might learn a better way to organize the site that will help direct people to the answers they are looking for.  I also like the idea of a FAQ.  But the problem that I have with most FAQ's is that they are typically poorly organized and completely uncategorized.  If you could take the most commonly found troubles and categorize them, then place the questions and answers into those categories, that might help too.  That's just my $.02

Thanks for all of the times that you've helped me out, I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 03, 2007, 06:57:34 PM
Quote from: Sarge on May 03, 2007, 02:50:35 PM
Ah yes. There's a missing ) (closing bracket) in the if statement in the posted code:


if (!empty($_REQUEST['search'])


should be:

if (!empty($_REQUEST['search']))

Fixed it. Feel free to make it a mod if someone wants.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 03, 2007, 07:33:57 PM
Quote from: groundup on May 03, 2007, 06:57:34 PM
Quote from: Sarge on May 03, 2007, 02:50:35 PM
Ah yes. There's a missing ) (closing bracket) in the if statement in the posted code:


if (!empty($_REQUEST['search'])


should be:

if (!empty($_REQUEST['search']))

Fixed it. Feel free to make it a mod if someone wants.

Thanks. However, I don't get the error anymore, but I haven't noticed any change in my search URLs either.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 03, 2007, 08:21:52 PM
Sorry, that only makes it possible to do shorter search urls like www.destalk.com/?search=foobar or www.destalk.com/index.php?search=foobar instead of www.destalk.com/index.php?action=search;search=foobar

It is just removing the ?action=search; part of the url.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 04, 2007, 02:21:20 AM
Ah sorry, I misunderstood.  :-[

I thought it was a way to get the search results URL to display the search keywords so that these could be used in posts to point users in the right direction. Of course only the simplemachines.org search works this way.

http://www.example.com/forum/index.php?action=search2;search=web+forums

SMF 1.1.2 that the 'rest of us' use, only returns this kind of URL.  ;)

http://www.example.com/forum/index.php?action=search2
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 04, 2007, 02:55:33 AM
That is just a custom search box. You can do the same on your site. Just look at the HTML for that search box.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 04, 2007, 03:16:13 AM
Is it really that simple. OK, that's a challenge for me over the weekend. ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 04, 2007, 04:22:17 PM
I don't want to give you the full answer because it seems like you are interested in learning something. So, hint - it is in the action of the form ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 04, 2007, 09:16:56 PM
Oh trust me, I'll take the full answer any day. ;)

The only thing I can see is a reference to a search.php file.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: pulkit on May 06, 2007, 07:55:16 PM
Reply to original question : I guess the biggest problem is that there is just too much information here and the search system can be made more effective, only that won't help too much. Everyone uses different words/phrases to describe the same issue !!

Also, for a lot of people using custom themes and portals, standard SMF support just doesn't cut it. Sometimes I don't know whom to ask for help ...

Also, there are many people here who can help if it's a matter of changing option (like putting a checkmark here or there in the admin panel) but less of those who will actually take their time to go through PHP files for individuals to discover and fix the source of the error. I know that this particular thing might never be possible due to the time and effort it requires.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 06, 2007, 11:12:47 PM
The thing is that this is a forum, not a helpdesk logging system.

Some helpdesk systmes have a feature wherebye when a user starts typing a question, they are offered some links to standard a knowledgbase based on their keywords. The Kayako system uses this.

http://www.kayako.com/supportsuite.php

But I still think that having the related links option as a standard feature would reduce the number of duplicate questions.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 06, 2007, 11:59:10 PM
destalk: I think a forum is better than a helpdesk for support because it allows more people to answer and ask questions. Instead of a limited pool of people that are allowed to answer a question.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on May 07, 2007, 08:20:13 AM
i would tend to agree with groundup.

I think that a tagging system and the ability to search by tag would be extremely helpful.  But that also creates overhead in managing the tags and moderating them and weeding out the inaccurate ones.

Still working on my FAQ thing, or a version of it
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: destalk on May 07, 2007, 09:08:40 AM
Quote from: groundup on May 06, 2007, 11:59:10 PM
destalk: I think a forum is better than a helpdesk for support because it allows more people to answer and ask questions. Instead of a limited pool of people that are allowed to answer a question.

I agree. That was what I was trying to say in response to some previous posts. ;) This is indeed a forum, not a helpdesk tool and I agree, that it's best left that way. But perhaps some of the tools of the helpdesk system could be integrated in some way, to take away pressure from SMF staff and support members and to prevent duplicate posts?

Some form of automated "related topics" might be one method of acieving this. I referred to the Kayako system simply as one example. One of my web hosts uses it and it is very smooth. For example, if someone is starting a topic on whether it is possible to change the name of the index.php file to something else, the user will get offered a series of links to already exisiting threads/or support documents on the subject.

Just a suggestion.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Krysia on May 08, 2007, 12:41:31 AM
I might be one of the few, but before I post a new thread, I actually not only attempt to search for a similar topic, I even wade through ALL of the 400+/- topics that come up as a result. I've found lately that the most accurate pre-asked question will be quite old with no answer; I'll use it to add my question, and get a warning like, "This thread is over 300 days old, are you sure you want to reply" or something like that. I'll click yes anyway, because I don't want to duplicate a thread... and then wait... and wait...

A perfect example is right here: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=125561.0 (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=125561.0)

The topic was originally posted by a member in 11/2006. The last support response was 12/2006. (It didn't solve the problem.) I found it via Search and added my concern 1/19/2007. First response to me was on 1/30/07. I replied, and then it wasn't picked up again until 5/1/2007 (thank you, BlackMage!). And is currently in in-progress status once again... but not solved as yet.

The point to my mentioning this, is that the time frame of the lack of response had me sorely tempted to post a new thread or something to get help. (I didn't.)




Another problem could be the fact that when given a response, sometimes Support (bless their hearts) don't realize that when they give their suggestions, they might as well be speaking a foreign language due to the skill (or lack thereof) of the person asking for help. There's been several times over the years when I've asked for help ---and I'm actually rather internet-savvy, though it'd be hard to prove that here! LOL... --- and receive responses that have me going HUH? DUH? And they have to be repeated 3 times using very small words and speaking slowly for me to finally get it (or not).

Oft times, I've had to literally use images to try to get my point across, and ask Do you mean this (image A)? Or this (image B)? because the lingo used is not familiar to me. While I'm pretty familiar with SMF itself (after all this time) and some PHP, when it comes to its backend stuff, like the MySQL database stuff, I'm back to DUUUH, with drool coming out of my chin and blood out my ears from straining my brain to understand and comply. Sometimes I think it'd be best if it was simply assumed that all of us never got past the 3rd grade, and go back to "Me Tarzan, you Jane" dialogue, or use pictures. "Do this (image A)." I mean, it works for us in the healthcare system... ;)




I've also found that the search itself must have lost something in the translation, because it finds results that are completely irrelevant and not what I was looking for. Or it'll come up with so many results that your eyes simply cross because it brought up each and every post ever posted with the expression "XYZ" in it. So you try to be more specific, and then that's when it gets difficult to know what to search for, or how.




As to your questions, I think definitely:
Do we need to add better descriptions to the boards?

That would be fabulous. Because sometimes when trying to narrow down choices by choosing certain boards, one's not certain as to which boards to check.

And I have checked out the manual, and I have no complaints with it, probably because my questions usually are beyond the basic setup and maintain stuff or whatever.

Allow you to see the search terms in the url
I don't see how that would help anything. You know the terms when you put them in, no?

Support staff waits to answer duplicate support requests.
Is there a way to merge those threads?

Teach people to mark their topic as solved/unsolved
That'd be a good idea, but wouldn't that mean limited moderator power or something? Or how about something that I always try to do when my question's been solved and have the people say, "Thank you, that did the trick!" (or whatever)?

Remove posts that don't answer the question.
I do like that option, especially in old threads. Or more to the point, don't help answer the question. Not the "I'm having the same problem!" posts, because in their way, they help because obviously if more than one person is having the problem, it broadens the spectrum of the possible cause. Actually, come to think on it... Rather than remove the post, perhaps a "strike-through" of the text in the post, because what's offered within might actually work for someone else searching for an answer to the same or similar problem. That way, someone skimming the thread to get to a solution quickly has the option of zipping over those posts if they see the "strike-though". (Or something.)

Allow a user to ask a full question like "I deleted myself from my forum. HELP!"
Now IMO, this isn't necessarily Support's problem. As an Admin, I've found that many people simply NEVER post a "smart" topic header for their post. And I'm starting to think that it's a physical impossibility for some of them. I know I try to be as detailed in my subject header as possible, because of searches as well as because of how frustrating it is to see 20 topics all shrieking "HELP! I EFFED UP" with no further message than that. If my question is too long for the subject line, I try to abbreviate it, and then repeat it first thing within the message before going into my detailed, long-winded explanation as to the nature of the problem (or whatever).

Have something at the top of support pages or when posting on a support board that says to not give away your information to just anyone.
Geez, are you kidding me? This day and age, and that is still considered possibly necessary? RME... IMO, that's freaking common sense... Yeesh...

Enable the karma system so that posts from better support people are looked at first (not sure how this is helping the support process)
Hm. I don't see how this would be helpful. First of all, I always look to see if there's the "SUPPORT" graphic under the user name of whomever's replied. If not that, then one of the "CUSTOMIZE" or one of the other "Staff" graphics. Then to see if it says "Charter Member". If there's not one of those graphics, then it's time for Common Sense to come into play: Utilize the following advice at your own risk and ALWAYS backup your Database prior...

Create a volunteer membergroup for support.
I thought there already were volunteers? Such as the Support people, Charter Member people, Customize et al people?

Create a FAQ board where the support team can move solved topics to.
That's brilliant. :)
And then have the first topic of said board be a stickied, alphabetical index listing with the topics linked to the proper threads. :)

That's all I've got for now. :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 08, 2007, 04:08:22 AM
Quote from: Krysia on May 08, 2007, 12:41:31 AM
...or use pictures. "Do this (image A)."

That's what I often do, even just to save a long, elaborate and perhaps confusing explanation. Not only do I include screenshots, I usually also circle the ADMIN button, for example, the Features and Options link, the Layout and Options tab and finally the "Limit number of displayed page links" option and then connect all of them with arrows that point from one link to the next logical one.

To make it short and sweet, here's a screenshot:

(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3693/limitpagelinksla3.png) (http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3693/limitpagelinksla3.png)

Isn't it clear and assuring? A picture speaks a thousand words. ;)

Oh, and I make the screenshots clickable and hotlinked.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 08, 2007, 05:59:41 AM
Quote from: pulkit on May 06, 2007, 07:55:16 PM
Reply to original question : I guess the biggest problem is that there is just too much information here and the search system can be made more effective, only that won't help too much. Everyone uses different words/phrases to describe the same issue !!

Searching with the error message usually yields very relevant results.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 08, 2007, 09:19:46 AM
To answer some of Krysia's points from my perspective:

(Not that they are bad, just that we'd need to find a way to accomplish it.)

Merging a bunch of threads can take a lot of man-hours. Maybe do-able slowly as time allows. Tracking them is one of the hardest parts.

Topic solving is already do-able in certain sections BUT with the current theme is not an option and won't be until that has been added. Editing the original post to use the green checkmark icon is about the only way that it can be done until the mod is re-installed on this theme.

Removing unhelpful replies might be a good option but, again, man-hours are limited.

The additional membergroup would be one that people could elect to join on their own. The official groups (besides the charter) are all done via invitation. This would be one that a non-team member could join and would ideally serve two purposes. One it would let those know, who looked, that the poster thought that they were skilled with SMF and (with Karma enabled) would let people know what others thought of them. Two it would also provide a place for us, those on the team, to look for new candidates for the SMF team.

Hmm...

Accomplishing those things becomes the next logical step and some of them look to be quite problematic to figure out.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: SidRoberts on May 12, 2007, 07:43:25 AM
How about a tagging feature so posters can be more specific about what the problem is?

Also, it might be good for when the poster replys to their post to have a a checkbox with a FIXED tag. So it saves them from editting it themselves.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: mag00 on May 13, 2007, 11:30:40 AM
Hi, I was looking for a way to add a tab to my forum. In the process of search, faqs etc, I still have no answer.  

Sure the FAQs even address this topic, but I assure you the answer is not there.

Unless it is written in some sort of code the average user in not familiar with, it is not there.

So yes, I can add the tab, but no instructions on how to make it go(link) to my main site homepage. or at least not in a language that  most humans may understand.

So you want to know how to make it better? Well let's get it done now, I will help you rewrite as I receive the directions. Otherwise I will have to start a new topic.

Actually I will start a new topic. There are many reasons for this. One: Is this not a forum community of help? What's the big deal in helping? I like chatting with others who are working with the same softwares.

I recently had a run in with phpbb on spam bots. Well I wanted to fix it and asked opinions on the best way. Mod came in, very rudely and locked the topic. The topic was moving along nicely and had nice alternatives and ideas to remedy the problem.

Seems the mods are annoyed by all the how do I stop the spam bots posts. Well instead of getting all uppity, maybe they should fix their software huh?

Seems a forum that supports the forum platform should be the friendliest place on earth. Why? Well at my forums the more action it gets, the happier I am. Encourage the new members to help out, this takes the strain off the more established members.

Get rid of the FAQ's completely, thus you have to ask a question and get help from another human. Is this not what a forum is for?

I think that you are rather looking at this backwards. How can you encourage members to ask more questions, and how can you encourage more new members to share their tricks?


OK so my thread is at http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=170952.0

Now, I am sure I am not the only person to use smf and want to click on a tab and go to my homepage, not just the forum homepage.

I have been on and off trying to get this done for over a year, each time no luck.  I am formally asking in a separate thread now. Is that wrong?

Dave
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on May 13, 2007, 04:21:15 PM
i must respectfully disagree with the 'less faqs' part.  Of course i believe in human interaction, so don't get me wrong here.   However i must note that really, any website owner should have a basic grasp on some things in case such a scenario does arise.  Not in the interests of not wanting to help, but rather in being interested in seeing the web grow legitimately and be populated by quality sites with webmasters who are knowledgeable enough to attend to them.   That mini-rant aside, I've written something up that I want to field test that explains in a bit more detail how things can be changed.  I'll link to it in your topic
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Assistance on May 13, 2007, 11:10:44 PM
I voted : The simplemachines.org website is too hard to navigate.

but don't get me wrong, its not that its to hard
it really could be organized better.

there is a reason why there are alot of post that have to be moved, and yes that will for sure happen on a support site,


something like Chit Chat board description
Feel free to talk about anything, especially about how good we are for making this :P.

then you have....
Site Comments
Comments on this slick site? Post them here.



I think i was going to make a theme, and wanted to learn how to do it proper, wow that was a chore that I honestly gave up on.&nbsp; Alot of the pinned topics take you to broken links, and feels like an endless circle.

Personally, I will give up and move onto something else then have to ask, which of the pinned topic combination with out broken links and images has my answer.



suppport in general is top notch here, its just finding it.



downloaded a mod, needed some help with it
just to find someone say, oh its been replied to in this thread......... right
30 pages later, may stumble on an answer but not necessarily fix the problem.



is there anyway possible to split the (mod)support topics up for board versions?
that would reduce the thread sizes and say a year from now after a mod has went thru many many changes, new people are not going to be lost and feel like they are in a zoo.

or maybe mod authors clean them up? with....
1st post...link to there mod
...1st reply known troubling shooting support

I know that sounds like a lot of hard work which people dont always have time for, but that would give the best support possible.

the above suggestion would make searches key into related topics better

possibly have the mod author link to doc site that is relative


lol, i just read my preview, I must be in a SMF Dream
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Coldfx on May 14, 2007, 08:20:02 PM
Human Laziness.

New people are lazy people :P

Just add something similar to the Topic Solved mod, and all will be smooth in my personal opinion.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 15, 2007, 12:07:35 AM
The topic solved mod is normally installed - it just isn't at this very moment in time as the theme is worked on.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 15, 2007, 02:42:55 AM
I guess it would nice to have support boards divided into separate child boards, one for each SMF version. Or at least one board for SMF 1.0.x, maybe a second for the 1.1 RCs and a board for the 1.1 Final line. This is an established practice when creating support forums -- for software in general, not just for forums.

By the way, the phpBB community forum has separate categories for 2.0.x and 3.0.x...
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on May 15, 2007, 04:48:54 PM
i agree with sarge, and feel that may be necessary due to the fact that we'd then be supporting 3 lines.  1.0, 1.1, and 2.0

Just my opinion :p
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on May 15, 2007, 04:57:36 PM
Would be a good idea.
But not a seperate one for the RC/Beta's though.
People that are still using those should upgrade anyway :P
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 16, 2007, 12:58:05 AM
I would imagine the 1.0 line would be merged in to 1.1. Even now, you should have upgraded to 1.1 and we shouldn't be supporting it IMO.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on May 16, 2007, 01:30:37 AM
So then you'd be in support of a 1.0/1.1 set, and a 2.0 set.

Now, the reason i say this might be a good idea is an attempt to at least organize some things.  1.0 and 1.1 support is so intertwined at times it can be hard to tell which version we're trying to support :P IMO.   Then we waste time and feel stupid especially if we give a code change or similar that is for an 1.1 line and the user is using 1.0.

Plus, I think it would help people locate help for their relevant branch of SMF.  If they're looking for 2.0 help, its not likely, IMO, that they're going to be looking for stuff aboug 1.0, but yet they'll find a lot of it.

Just my opinions
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: margarett on May 16, 2007, 04:49:40 AM
Having read the latest comments, I came up with another idea (although this goes aside from the original post). The separation from versions is nice, I think.

Well, the idea here is to help the users. So, it's nice if they help the support helping them.

I would say, REQUIRE a "standard" model for support requests (have something like a banner in the support boards to let people know), different for each support board. No model, topic blocked. Examples:
General English Support -- SMF V. 1.0 / 2.0
SMF Version:
Installed MODs:
Installed languages:
Installed themes:
Problem description:
Printscreen available/needed?

General English Support -- Converters and Importers
SMF version:
"Other" BB version:
Is SMF correctly installed and running?
Do you have your "Other" BB in maintenance mode while converting?
Do you have installed MODs in your "Other" BB? If yes, name them. (could prevent the converter from working)
Do you have mysql/phpmyadmin experience? -- this could help identify the "target" whom we are talking to. sometimes it's necessary to make some sql queries (I remember my phpBB conversion for instance)

Most of the times, those are questions that we need to ask over and over. If they are there already, it's easier. It won't probably reduce the number of support threads, but it's a way to create a "standard" that will (I think) produce better search results...
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 06:06:02 AM
Run instructions past a school teacher, better yet a former military instructor, one who is clear that too many questions indicates that the instructions aren't getting gotten.

One difference between a military instructor and a college professor is the latter "dumps" (lectures/talks at) subject matter in a student's space and accepts no responsibility for ensuring that communication takes place; whereas a military instructor gets downgraded as an instructor when a student fails the course.

What would cut back on questions is if programmers/script writers used the Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, instructional format. This method makes it easier for us end users to provide feedback about instructions,

Kerry

PS. I'm hoping someone will start publishing instructions solely in the RSS format. In that way they would have the master copy on their desktop. With feedback they could edit and improve upon it daily.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 17, 2007, 07:55:24 AM
Quote from: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 06:06:02 AM
PS. I'm hoping someone will start publishing instructions solely in the RSS format. In that way they would have the master copy on their desktop. With feedback they could edit and improve upon it daily.

I can show you how to get 150 of them but, for bandwidth sake, probably shouldn't post the URL right here.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 17, 2007, 03:50:56 PM
Quote from: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 06:06:02 AM
Run instructions past a school teacher, better yet a former military instructor, one who is clear that too many questions indicates that the instructions aren't getting gotten.

One difference between a military instructor and a college professor is the latter "dumps" (lectures/talks at) subject matter in a student's space and accepts no responsibility for ensuring that communication takes place; whereas a military instructor gets downgraded as an instructor when a student fails the course.

What would cut back on questions is if programmers/script writers used the Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, instructional format. This method makes it easier for us end users to provide feedback about instructions,

Kerry

PS. I'm hoping someone will start publishing instructions solely in the RSS format. In that way they would have the master copy on their desktop. With feedback they could edit and improve upon it daily.
I am having a but of trouble understanding what you mean. Are you suggesting that the code be written in a certain way or people ask questions in a certain way or the documentation be written in a certain way?

BTW, there are actually a bunch of people that have been in the military or are currently in the military on the SMF Team. I don't think you want us to get "military" with our actions ;)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 05:01:09 PM
Hi groundup,

My suggestion pertains mainly to install and upgrade instructions. This is a touchy subject. I know that I'm attached to my sentence structures and that another's suggestion often triggers upset. My mind is trained to make the student wrong for not understanding as opposed to getting that I unconsciously set it up for the student to train me, to support me, in communicating through to mutual satisfaction.

Vets know that the word "military" as I used it is misleading, in fact military classrooms are the least "military" of any military activity. Military as I use the term refers to the point of view of the staff/instructors whose job it is is to write clear concise instructions. The test for whether the instructor passed is—how many questions students had to ask so as to understand what the instructor believed to be clear instructions.

Military "actions" yes, why not? This threads stated mission is to "improve the support process." The word "improve" needs to be translated into a&nbsp; measurable goal. One such goal could be, "To reduce by 50% the number of questions pertaining to the install/upgrade instructions being asked on this forum." Then we have a game, a goal. The SMF Team would record the number and types of questions the next update generates. That data could then be used as the base line for setting a goal for improvement. The mission of the team then becomes, reducing the the number of questions subsequent installs/updates generate. Such a game (a military-like objective) could not help but generate more conversations about instructions among the team members before they present them to us end users. One question team members might ask is, "Will Kerry understand this?" :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 05:12:26 PM
Hi KGIII, The key word is "solely." I'd like to see a link to an rss feed in the in the readme or install.php file in the download update folder. My understanding is that such instructions would be continually updated and therefore always include clarifications that other users had requested. I've often found duplicate instructions that are not the same as the ones in the download. In other words, have only one set of install instructions. Answers to posts could then say, "See para. 2 of the Install Instuctions."

I'd like to see a link to what you are referring.

Thanks, Kerry
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Peter Duggan on May 17, 2007, 05:17:18 PM
Quote from: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 06:06:02 AM
Run instructions past a school teacher, better yet a former military instructor, one who is clear that too many questions indicates that the instructions aren't getting gotten.

Quote from: groundup on May 17, 2007, 03:50:56 PM
BTW, there are actually a bunch of people that have been in the military or are currently in the military on the SMF Team.

And at least one school teacher! :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on May 17, 2007, 07:07:19 PM
Kerrith: well, if we decided to use a military mindset, there would be a lot of people in the front leaning rest. Then they wouldn't be able to use their keyboards. An image comes to mind of people using their nose to type in the down position. hahah, that would be great.

The goal of this topic is to figure out ways to reduce the number of support topics and to make it easier, faster, and all around better support. Correct, the way that we can judge that is by counting the number of new posts after we have completed the changes.

We do a lot of discussion in the team boards. Trying to step outside of the box and think like a new user is a catch 22. The more you know, the less you are like a new user. The less you know, the less you can help. Yet, the support and doc staff here tries to do that constantly. I think user input is key though. We will never truly know what you (the users of this site) think the first time you stumble across this site.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 18, 2007, 01:14:59 PM
Quote from: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 05:12:26 PM
I'd like to see a link to what you are referring.

Sending via PM.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 18, 2007, 01:38:24 PM
Quote from: KGIII on May 18, 2007, 01:14:59 PM
Quote from: Kerrith on May 17, 2007, 05:12:26 PM
I'd like to see a link to what you are referring.

Sending via PM.

May I have it too?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 18, 2007, 02:02:53 PM
Yup. Though it isn't as good as I had hoped. I'll check and see if that can be improved though.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Sarge on May 18, 2007, 02:34:18 PM
Thanks for the link. :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 18, 2007, 02:49:16 PM
I am going to see if an exception can be made and the entirety of the posts be given via RSS.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Kerrith on May 18, 2007, 05:04:59 PM
Hi KGIII,

Thanks for the link in your PM to the SMF Online Manual RSS feed.

It's not exactly what I have in mind but it's definitely getting there. What I envision is The Manual as a feed but that is added to daily as pertinent info (as determined solely by SMF Manual staff) come in. A link to The Manual would be in the download package. That is to say, the user would click the RSS feed in the install.txt file or the readme.txt and they would have the latest and only source of install info. Info discussed in forum posts that was determined to be of value by SMF manual staff would be copy-pasted to The Manual daily.

Often I see a user post minor fixes to code they made to a .php file during an install. Another user will add to it saying , "Oh yah and I added this ... to yours." When I get to the end of the thread I don't know if these suggestions are essential and approved by staff or what they look like in their final iteration.

Again, thanks, Kerry

Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Kerrith on May 18, 2007, 05:14:38 PM
I have no idea how the search code works for forums but it seems to be the same for all the forums I use. Like a good member I enter some key words but invariably I don't get what I'm looking for so I can understand why others don't use the search feature and simply post questions that have been asked before. I enter the same key words in Google and most times I get an answer. My suggestion would be to ask Google to design a search engine for forums. :)

Kerry
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Kerrith on May 18, 2007, 05:48:41 PM
I'm assuming here that you are asking for all aspects of improving the SMF forum. This suggestion is about taking your support, as great as it is, to the next level. I wouldn't be taking the time composing suggestions if I wasn't intent on supporting the continued success of SMF.

There is a way to moderate a forum that always feels good to a member. It begins with all staff being aligned with the commitment to zero abuse, condescension, or make-wrong. With such a forum all support specialists run their replies past the moderator (but do so only as a mental exercise) —Does this reply support the moderator's policy?

For example: One forum I use I can't ask a wrong question because they simply don't think that way. I'm never chastised and if I post in the wrong thread it's simple moved with a polite communication that it was moved. Condescension is not a problem because the moderators all agree to be polite and appreciative. I find the attitude so different, so respectful, that I find myself trying harder to use their search engine.

Another example: My clients always run important communications past me before sending them. Two minds usually can find the unconsciousness that could trigger upset or confusion. One client has been doing this for so long (14 years) that most often now he has no need to call me, he can imagine my suggestions in his mind as he composes.

It's best that no one reply to this suggestion, it would be hard to do so and have everyone feel good.

Much appreciation for the space to communicate.

Kerry
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Vampy on May 19, 2007, 08:16:35 AM
As a mere user and frequent screamer for help I find that the search never throws up exactly what I'm looking for or my precise problem. To avoid the risk of tagging on to an already resolved query and being ignored completely, most users will opt for starting their own thread. Add to that the fact that many new users of SMF don't even know WHAT to seacrh for, only the symptoms as it were.

I also don't think most users are fully aware of the documentation - I know I wasn't until recently
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: KGIII on May 21, 2007, 02:40:08 PM
Two things to add to this...

Kerry, "Kerrith," could you drop me a PM at some point? I am not sure what I will harvest but I really want to pick your brain.

Second, I am not sure of what the response from the Doc Team will be. I have asked for a full version to be made available via RSS which, hopefully, an RSS aggregator would pick up changed articles as required. I would like to see a printable manual in various formats available but with the current version of the manual and the way it is put in place that seems rather difficult.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Coldfx on May 24, 2007, 07:14:06 PM
Just thought I'd throw a suggestion out there:

A new board for "Solved Topics".  Imagine the "Tips and Tricks" board, except now it's for support questions that were answered.  Topping it off with an index of topics would be nice too.

~My 2 cents.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on May 24, 2007, 07:16:10 PM
I would tend to agree with the idea of a solved topics board, but if it were indexed, that index would be HUGE beyond belief after awhile.   Not to mention hard to maintain
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Rudolf on May 24, 2007, 07:24:10 PM
However a solved board would be good. Almost like a knowledge base. Question and answer style.
Right now if you enter a board looking for an answer you have to open a couple of unsolved topics (related to your question) until you find the one that has an answer. Having a board where you know that you will find answers would be a good thing.
Forget about the index topic.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Coldfx on May 24, 2007, 09:38:59 PM
Oh, and throw in possibly the "topic solved" mod?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: metallica48423 on May 24, 2007, 09:49:35 PM
we already use a topic solved mod.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: minusonebit on May 27, 2007, 03:21:13 PM
There is a manual for this thing? Where? I didnt know that, so I'd say yeah, thats an issue.

But I have found that the search here seems to be pretty useless. I.e. when I searched for the error I was having, it gave me 100s of threads IIRC and none of them had the error message in the topic and the first few were not relevant. Maybe I just used a particularly bad query, but I am usually pretty good with that so I'd tend to look elsewhere. Another trait of users, they are never at fault. :-)

Users don't search or RTFM, thats just a fact of life. You'll never escape it.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: mollysden on May 27, 2007, 04:14:28 PM
I don't consider myself lazy. I've read over the docs and I've used the search function. I've also gone back many pages in a topic looking for what I need. Sadly, I find my exact question asked and answers like "read the faq" or "that's been answered before". That's really not helpful. I also see people post questions, get a couple of replies, then say "thank you, I figured it out myself", yet they never post the solution or the code to help anyone else.

My needs were simple, my php skills are zero. I was someone who needed more indepth answers then those that were supplied in the documentation. Many of us are not stupid, we simply do not have php knowledge and need a little help.

I had an awful time adding a menu tab at the top of the forum to an external site and getting a banner at the top to display the way I wanted it to display. I was eventually able to work with the instructions in the documentation, but it was on a test board with much trial and error and broke the board several times along the way. It should have been easier.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: romeoyankee on June 10, 2007, 08:46:55 PM
Just throwing in my 2 cents as an end user that is basically treading water in the world of PHP, XML, CSS etc etc etc

I think that we might all forget what its like to be a complete newb coming into the world of SMF and the web. 

When I first started messing around with web design it was just for fun.. hell.. still is.

I bought a domain and started to design just out of the sheer interest in learning something new.  I get enough time away from work that I am able to design a site and have enough time to keep er going.  But thats it.

For the same reason that you arent able to provide instantaneous support I am unable to sort through hours and hours of posts to try and find what I am looking for. 

Dont get me wrong.. you dont owe me anything.  I am not paying for anything nor do I think you should answer me within 10 mins of me asking.  If I were paying you something and support were included then different story.

So basically coming from a newbs point of view.. Its intimidating. 

Yeah I know about the SEARCH button but the problem is with a site that has THIS many posts on it,  it is very difficult to find what you are looking for in there.  I know that alot of people are only dealing with the forum as a side project and have time to read and read and read but when I do a search and there are 19 pages of results with each result having 19 pages of posts that have links to 19 other pages of results etc etc.. it gets tough.  It would take me about 2 days to solve each simple little problem.  There needs to be a way to stop the multiple posting.

How about when people start new topics they should be entering a bit of info about the actual problem in the topic heading..  Rather then Help Me.  or Im Lost or whatever.  It would make it alot easier and would probably cut down substantially on the amout of double questions because they would be easier found in the search and answered.

anyways.. just a thought from a perpetual newb...
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: fgoc on June 29, 2007, 04:03:13 AM
Suggestion:When people post a question, please can people try and answer the question they ask before asking them why they are doing what they are doing, or giving them another way of doing things? Every time I post for support (after extensive searching first) I get asked multiple questions before anyone offers an asnwer to the clear and simple question I have asked.Might reduce the post count/save bandwidth/make search facility far more effective in returning results relevant to the topic you are searching for and therefore again reduce the number of duplicate posts made about the same topic![/rant]
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Harro on June 29, 2007, 06:06:06 AM
Well, often these questions are needed to find out what you are trying to do and what the errors/problems are.
And possible give you a better solution that won't cause any errors.

How can I get my problems solved faster? (http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?topic=493)
How do I ask support questions the smart way? (http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?topic=494)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: 青山 素子 on June 29, 2007, 11:11:32 AM
Quote from: fgoc on June 29, 2007, 04:03:13 AM
Suggestion:When people post a question, please can people try and answer the question they ask before asking them why they are doing what they are doing, or giving them another way of doing things? Every time I post for support (after extensive searching first) I get asked multiple questions before anyone offers an asnwer to the clear and simple question I have asked.

I couldn't actually find the situation you described for yourself in your posts, but maybe I missed it. Assuming this is so, are you asking how to do something specific, or how to solve a problem? Our support people generally like to make sure you use the best solution for a problem. Often they will try and pull out the problem so they can help determine the best solution.

Now, a car/computer analogy. Sure, if you ask, someone can tell you how to add oil to your car, but that may not get it running. You might need to do something else. Without knowing the source issue though, it would be impossible to determine. Finding out the root problem and determining the best solution for it is an easy way to make sure that things are truly repaired.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: symon on June 29, 2007, 11:55:53 AM
The reason there are so many duplicate posts is because there are so many unanswered posts. None of the options in the poll seems to suggest that. Seems a little narrow minded to not offer an option which would indicate smf support as a cause. After all...is that not the point of this thread ;)

It seems SMF support doesn't abide by it's own posting rules. Asking us to clearly title a thread then answering another post within that thread and not the original post is crazy and happens a lot. That's why the answers aren't there an people just ask a fresh version.

A thread named "Help!" gets far more attention than a thread named accurately.

A recent upgrade of smf has come out and the thread is full of 'do not post support questions here' yet the place for support doesn't even get answered when the titles are clear.

This thread is clearly titled and regards a big issue that others are having and a week later and nobody has offered a solution or even a theory!

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=178943

Should we just make the titles as eye grabbing as possible rather than relevant?

Reward those that follow your guidelines.

But I realize you guys are hella busy :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on June 29, 2007, 04:50:52 PM
symon: the reason there are so many unanswered posts is because there are so many of them to answer.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: fgoc on June 30, 2007, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: Harro on June 29, 2007, 06:06:06 AM
Well, often these questions are needed to find out what you are trying to do and what the errors/problems are.
And possible give you a better solution that won't cause any errors.

How can I get my problems solved faster? (http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?topic=493)
How do I ask support questions the smart way? (http://docs.simplemachines.org/index.php?topic=494)
Quote from: Motoko-chan on June 29, 2007, 11:11:32 AM
Quote from: fgoc on June 29, 2007, 04:03:13 AM
Suggestion:When people post a question, please can people try and answer the question they ask before asking them why they are doing what they are doing, or giving them another way of doing things? Every time I post for support (after extensive searching first) I get asked multiple questions before anyone offers an asnwer to the clear and simple question I have asked.

I couldn't actually find the situation you described for yourself in your posts, but maybe I missed it. Assuming this is so, are you asking how to do something specific, or how to solve a problem? Our support people generally like to make sure you use the best solution for a problem. Often they will try and pull out the problem so they can help determine the best solution.

Now, a car/computer analogy. Sure, if you ask, someone can tell you how to add oil to your car, but that may not get it running. You might need to do something else. Without knowing the source issue though, it would be impossible to determine. Finding out the root problem and determining the best solution for it is an easy way to make sure that things are truly repaired.

As a reply to both of you, my last question (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=179276.msg1140656#msg1140656) is a typical example. I asked a specific, simple question, to which I just got more questions, suggestions unrelated to my question, and still no answer.

I have found this to be the case throughout the support forums on not just my questions, but lots of others also.

Obviously if someone posts for support with an error message and nothing more then you need further questions to determine possible solutions, but when a specific question is asked, a specific, correct answer to the question is all that is needed.

I am by no means an expert user of SMF forum software, but I am an experienced web designer and know my way around php and sql. When I ask a question, just an answer would be nice :)
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Dannii on June 30, 2007, 11:03:34 PM
Welcome to the internet?
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: a2h on July 01, 2007, 12:22:11 AM
my guess is due to lack of just being able to PM a support Spec for the support, i mean think about....someone needs support its usually because something has gotten thier boards fudged up....

so they see the mod creator online or the support spec, and PM then real quick, and simply get told....post it on the board, someone will answer it there. when support is needed, its needed then....not when someone decides to answer the board post......think about it.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: a2h on July 01, 2007, 12:30:32 AM
example to what i am saying.......today I PM'd someone about noonish. I got this reply:

Re: mod question...
« Sent to: a2h on: Today at 12:46:55 PM » Quote Reply Remove&nbsp; &nbsp;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hello,


If you could post this on the mod thread, I'll look into it and post a fix for ya.

-snork13


now look at this this thread, still unanswered (12 hrs after PM'n, 6 hours after posting it on board:
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=68444.100

Online support is just that ONLINE support, no need for support specs, if ya got docs, or we have to search and trust someone other than an SMF associated support tech...think about it*

Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Dannii on July 01, 2007, 01:41:36 AM
SMF only offers online support to charter members. To everyone else we offer community support. You should expect to wait a day, if you're lucky you'll get an answer before then. Remember that everyone lives in different time zones.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on July 01, 2007, 04:39:49 AM
a2h: you are one in a thousands of people that need support. If we answered everything via one-to-one communication, nobody else would benefit from that knowledge. Think about this - your priorities are probably not nearly as important as the priorities of those giving you support or the priorities of the community as a whole. Be grateful that someone even gives you the offer to answer your support via the forums.

To all those whom this may concern: please don't use this topic to whine/******/complain about support not being fast enough. We do our best. I created this topic to get IDEAS about how we can make support less redundant, not to hear people complain about now having personalized support. IMO, I think support should be less personalized. More docs, less spoon-feeding.
Title: Re: How can we improve the support process?
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on July 01, 2007, 04:42:18 AM
I think the team has gathered the information that we need. We will now make strives to make improvements with that information.

Thank you to all that have contributed.