Simple Machines Community Forum

Simple Machines Blogs => Developers' Blog => Topic started by: Grudge on June 16, 2007, 03:57:36 AM

Title: An update on 2.0
Post by: Grudge on June 16, 2007, 03:57:36 AM
So, it's now mid-June and I feel it only fair to give an update on the status of 2.0 - especially considering we've said we are hoping to get the Charter Member beta out this month. I'm afraid to say it's highly unlikely that we're going to meet our target date of June for the first beta release. Unfortunately as with so many projects (least of all free ones) we've hit a couple of bumps in the road which have meant we're not quite where we want to be.

Firstly - the development team have been a little distracted recently. We've had a few long standing bugs to iron out with 1.1 that have taken precedence over 2.0 development. In addition both myself and Compuart have, until recently, been pretty much fully occupied in real life reducing the available resource on 2.0. All this in total probably means we've effectively lost a month.

Secondly - bugs. We've been working really hard the last few weeks to squash as many bugs as possible - and are now down to about 100 bugs on the tracker - but we need to get it lower still. Even though it's the first beta we're determined to release something that is reasonably stable and bug free - we don't want to chuck in a load of new features and find none of them work as expected. For this reason we've added very few feature improvements to 2.0 over the last six weeks - instead preferring to satisfy ourselves that we're going to be releasing a solid beta to the Charter Members.

It's however not all bad news. We've been cleaning up the user interface for the new features a bit the last few weeks and giving them a little spit and polish (Although more is required). I finally got around to adding some new SSI functionality that has been requested by the community over the last few months. We've added a few small but nice featuers like ignoring users - but these too need a little cleaning up. Importantly for me I've managed to track down and solve many of the reported WYSIWYG bugs which have been giving myself and users headaches the last few months.

So, in summary, we're a little late with our first beta release but it is getting there. I'm on holiday quite a bit in the next month and I doubt it will get released whilst I'm away but I'm hoping that we will get it out for our Charter Members by early August... but things can change. This does go to show why we don't normally give out release dates - because they can be missed.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Daniel15 on June 16, 2007, 09:14:42 AM
You as well as the rest of the developers are doing an awesome job on SMF 2.0 - keep up the great work! :D

Quote
I finally got around to adding some new SSI functionality that has been requested by the community over the last few months.
Wow, really? I'll need to take a look at that :)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Dragooon on June 16, 2007, 01:06:35 PM
awww I am depressed...
But still Keep up the great work!!!
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: shadow82x on June 16, 2007, 01:28:10 PM
I see a lot of improvements in the editer! I think stable is better. Still good work.. Are you devs. still busy?
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Dragooon on June 16, 2007, 01:43:52 PM
I think yea they are always busy.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: nitins60 on June 16, 2007, 03:32:33 PM
Nice to hear! No hurry :)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Drunken Clam on June 16, 2007, 07:04:11 PM
Thanks for the update Grudge, your, and the other Devs, efforts are really appreciated.

Looking forward to 2.0 (Whenever it may be!  ;) )

Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: MegaTinkerCoder on June 16, 2007, 11:07:39 PM
:) Its hard to imagine the next version being better... Great job all!

Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Fiery on June 16, 2007, 11:40:44 PM
Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Tristan Perry on June 17, 2007, 05:53:21 AM
Thanks for the update :) We all appreciate the work you are doing, and there's no mad rush - heck, I'll settle for a few new screenies, even ;) (*Hint* Especially of the moderation centre *Whistles* :P)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: KGIII on June 17, 2007, 07:06:49 AM
Let me ask if I can take some screenshots and upload them - there are some. I think one of the reasons that there aren't too many is because things are subject to change at a moment's notice and we don't want people to get their hopes up too high and then not meet their expectations.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Humbe on June 17, 2007, 07:15:35 AM
Very nice update, I'm not a official SMF forum owner but I will wait until this version 2.0 comes out and test it.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Nikki Sixx on June 17, 2007, 10:39:54 AM
Care to comment on the status of the Simple Machines Blog site? It has been partially offline for well over a month now. :(
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: KGIII on June 18, 2007, 12:27:26 AM
Care to comment on the status of the Simple Machines Blog site? It has been partially offline for well over a month now. :(

Do you mean this?

http://blogs.simplemachines.org/
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Nikki Sixx on June 18, 2007, 12:35:11 AM
Yes, but now the Simple Machines Blog page currently redirects to the Simple Machines home page. This is more like a step backwards than forward.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: KGIII on June 18, 2007, 12:38:43 AM
Hmm... It seems to work here? Could you elaborate and maybe screen shot what you're seeing? (It appears to be fully functional but that MAY be because of permissions or the likes.)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Nikki Sixx on June 18, 2007, 12:43:58 AM
I suspect you have the appropriate permissions to view the Simple Machines Blog site. Try logging out and see if your then able to view the site please.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: WebPublishing on June 18, 2007, 12:55:04 AM
Thanks for the update on 2.0; it's not what I wanted to hear, but I appreciate the update.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: KGIII on June 18, 2007, 01:01:33 AM
Yup, it is a permissions thing. Will note it.

Edit: Added to BT.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Nikki Sixx on June 18, 2007, 01:14:35 AM
Thanks for addresses this issue, KGIII.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: KGIII on June 18, 2007, 01:21:16 AM
I just report 'em. That's for the dev and design folks to figure out. *grins* So, really, the thanks go to you for telling us so that it could be reported.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Nikki Sixx on June 18, 2007, 01:26:31 AM
Well then... make me up a grilled ham and cheese sandwhich so I have sufficient reasoning to thank you. :P
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on June 18, 2007, 06:07:49 AM
Thanks for your great work! 8)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Elrond on June 18, 2007, 02:20:11 PM
It's basically for the most part good news. From this there will be less bugs in already-existing features and then the new features can be worked on. Thus it will be something we'll all love as always. Rock on dev's.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Trekkie101 on June 19, 2007, 05:50:10 AM
Yeah, it's coming back, real soon, Thantos has been improving it.

Edit: its back
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Yellowrose on June 19, 2007, 02:22:39 PM
Wow lots of new goodies heading our way with 2.0

I look forward to any screens that can be posted. I know even an early shot can change but any changes made to the version released for testing will most likely be better anyway so a look at it at the moment would be nice and I don't think there would be any disappointment when the released version is seen because as noted it will most likely either look the same of better as changes are implemented.

Great work guys
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: wxtracker93 on June 19, 2007, 03:42:35 PM
So, it's now mid-June and I feel it only fair to give an update on the status of 2.0......

sounds good so far.  please, please, please take a look at some of the requests here when adding to 2.0: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=166141

Thanks so much,
Brett
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: KGIII on June 19, 2007, 07:17:18 PM
I look forward to any screens that can be posted.

See this topic:

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=163438.0
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Nordoelum on June 20, 2007, 09:36:54 AM
Good to see the development is headed forward :) Keep up the great work..
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: madfiddler on June 21, 2007, 09:16:49 PM
I think it's right to delay the beta to charter members. Get it right, get it good. It's free, who can complain!

All the best to you all!

m
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Nikki Sixx on June 23, 2007, 11:03:44 AM
Yeah, it's coming back, real soon, Thantos has been improving it.

Edit: its back

Excellent work.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: afes.sefa3 on June 24, 2007, 01:09:25 AM
your good work ;)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: kinan on June 24, 2007, 11:52:12 AM
i think the time is not important
wat is important the fave a stable version with new adds
so it's very inportan to have  a stable version no' lake other board in one monthe we put  a new bug
i hopp that you work 1st for security and add all wat user off SMF need
with this stratege i think you will be the best and best free board
and now you are the best
10x you a lot for this sweet and good work version 1.2 stable just need new addon lake  editeur and advertising
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Daniel15 on June 25, 2007, 04:32:47 AM
Quote
i hopp that you work 1st for security
Yeah, security is one of our priorities :)

Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Gary on June 25, 2007, 03:07:49 PM
Quote
i hopp that you work 1st for security
Yeah, security is one of our priorities :)

If not THE top. ;)

-ALM
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Ðyєgσv on July 01, 2007, 01:22:40 PM
Thanks a lot for the updates; it's really nice to know how it's going. I personally am not hurried to upgrade, if I'm going to get an unstable and insecure software: better off to wait and have nice secure and stable forum :)

The new features sound good. If you do implement all of them, I won't need the mods I have anymore 8)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: ShawnX on July 02, 2007, 09:02:57 AM
I'm sure it will be worth the wait :)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: ZeusChicago on July 05, 2007, 06:38:58 PM
Yeah, I can stop biting my nails and checking the my email for the almighty email from SMF this month....haha. :-)

Semi-annouced release dates are good for keeping us at bay, and "most" should understand they are soft dates that can slip now and then (as long as were not having this conversation next June about 2.0....lol)

Keep up the good work guys, Thanks for the update and have a great summer!

Z
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Daniel15 on July 05, 2007, 11:14:52 PM
Quote
Thanks for the update and have a great summer!
Or winter, in my case (I'm from Australia) :D
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Gary on July 06, 2007, 04:40:32 AM
Or winter, in my case (I'm from Australia) :D

So it's opposite land! Crooks chase cops, cats have puppies!
-Homer Simpson

:P
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: kamili34 on July 08, 2007, 09:50:42 PM
 I will be wait and checking whats new. I promise  :P
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Smith6612 on July 09, 2007, 07:05:35 PM
SMF 2.0 is going to be awesome, plus it's gonna help me out a lot more. I can't wait for the day for me to download and install it to my server.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: shadow82x on July 10, 2007, 10:44:28 AM
I wonder if SMF2 will be even faster???
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Smith6612 on July 10, 2007, 11:44:11 AM
Well, assuming that it's a new version, the coders would probably want it to be faster and not cause as much of a load on the server, but it probably most likely depends on the features you want/have enable and how fast your server is.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: shadow82x on July 10, 2007, 11:50:08 AM
Ya my server loads in "Page created in 0.135 seconds with 8 queries." thats the fastest forum out there. It will be pretty hard to beat that.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Smith6612 on July 10, 2007, 11:53:48 AM
I've seen servers only take 0.019 seconds to be processed with SMF before if that's what you mean...

My server is low end, and not many people visit my site so I get a server generation time of around 0.33 seconds on the latest SMF install. It may take that time to generate the page, but when I'm on my LAN, it still loads up instantly.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Daniel15 on July 10, 2007, 12:10:41 PM
I wonder if SMF2 will be even faster???
It will have its own caching system for if you don't have a cache like XCache or APC installed, so yes, it should be faster :)
My forum (http://www.daniel15.com/forum/) has "Page created in 0.076 seconds with 15 queries", most of the queries due to the sidebars I have (portal system with stuff like "Most popular topics"). If I use the default SMF 1.1 theme (which is unedited), I get "Page created in 0.051 seconds with 6 queries" :)
I'm on a relatively low-end system (AMD Athlon 2000+, 1 GB RAM, MySQL with default configuration, XCache), and it would probably be even faster on a more powerful system ;).
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: shadow82x on July 10, 2007, 12:15:05 PM
So therefore SMF2 will have a good cache system and will be faster?
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Yeshai Bouskila on July 10, 2007, 11:39:05 PM
Is there any chance to get files of SMF 2.0 for translation? not the system it self.
I want to start translation into Hebrew

Thank you
Yeshai
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Aaron on July 11, 2007, 04:00:35 PM
As SMF 2.0 isn't quite done yet, translating would be inadvisable at this point. Simply because a lot of strings might be edited and/or removed. :)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: SleePy on July 11, 2007, 05:07:03 PM
Well since it is only a beta you shouldn't be upgrading your forum soon as it is released. Mods wont work, Themes may fail.
So even when it is released I would suggest waiting a bit before you even think of upgrading your forum to 2.0 beta. This should give time for our language translators to get them done.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: nitins60 on July 12, 2007, 12:31:14 AM
Ah, my server s too low end system. I have few major mods like admanagement, hide tag spl, thank o matic, registered links, member colors link. My board index  queries 28, time 0.072seconds (avg). Other pages 33queries with almost same page loading time
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Smith6612 on July 12, 2007, 09:56:13 AM
Your server sounds like a high end server compared to mine. All mine is, on a normal day about 12 queries with a page generation time around 0.33 seconds, and that's with only 2-3 people on with the online list. Other pages, it'll take 0.42+ seconds to generate the page, and one topic takes 5.025 seconds to be processed, while on other servers, it's made in 0.320 seconds. The nice thing though is, I've been getting horded by Yahoo lately (getting like 108 Yahoo bots in within 2 minutes), and for a slow server, it handled the load just fine, but my internet got laggy as the bots came in (because they were coming in so fast, making 5 connections at once).
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: kamili34 on July 12, 2007, 02:06:21 PM
Better later but in the best quality  :P ;)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: AdrenalineRider on July 18, 2007, 09:58:29 AM
Cant wait to see the final release ... :D .... BTW, is it possible to get a preview of the 2.0 on a diffrent website ?
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Gary on July 18, 2007, 10:23:55 AM
There's a few websites here and there that are using 2.0, all owned by the team of course. :P

Like my site for example :P

-ALM
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Dragooon on July 21, 2007, 12:18:39 AM

Like my site for example :P

-ALM
LOL, True.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Karuhun on July 24, 2007, 03:04:00 PM
I'm (and the rest) very please to hear for major version change.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: motumbo on July 24, 2007, 06:02:59 PM
There's a few websites here and there that are using 2.0, all owned by the team of course. :P

Like my site for example :P

-ALM

SMF is STILL using tables for layout in SMF2???   >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Aaron on July 24, 2007, 06:28:24 PM
SMF is STILL using tables for layout in SMF2???   >:( >:( >:(

As far as I know, that's being worked on. :)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Killer Possum on July 24, 2007, 06:35:42 PM
SMF is STILL using tables for layout in SMF2???   >:( >:( >:(

As far as I know, that's being worked on. :)

Not only that, but who really cares? Most of the forum users out there (if you count ALL forums out there) don't even know what a table is much less anything about HTML at all. It all looks the same in the end.

I understand that we are all CSS junkies here because we all work on websites ourselves, but in the end if it didn't make it into SMF 2.0 it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) be a back breaking flaw IMO. ;)

Unless tables suddenly do not validate under XHTML 1.0 (which is the standard SMF uses) then it shouldn't be a concern.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 24, 2007, 06:45:44 PM
Not only that, but who really cares?

I really care! ::)

Validation alone is not good enough, semantics are important for a variety of reasons and superfluous layout tables are a nightmare when it comes to customization. But, like Aäron said, it's being worked on.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Killer Possum on July 24, 2007, 06:56:31 PM
I understand that you can do more when not using tables, but honestly what more does one do to a forum that you can't do with tables? If you look at other forums that have switched they really haven't done anything that screams 'this forum isn't using tables look how fancy'.

Maybe it's just because I haven't seen the new SMF theme that's being "worked on" but I can tell you that if it looks the same as the current default theme then I don't see the point. But again, that's only my opinion and to be clear I'm not saying it's usless to switch just saying that there isn't a point unless you have the wow factor and show something really nice that can't be done with tables. :-\
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 24, 2007, 07:14:07 PM
It's not just about what it looks like or what you can do with it, it's about how it works!

semantics are important for a variety of reasons and superfluous layout tables are a nightmare when it comes to customization.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: motumbo on July 24, 2007, 07:39:21 PM
Not only that, but who really cares? Most of the forum users out there (if you count ALL forums out there) don't even know what a table is much less anything about HTML at all. It all looks the same in the end.

Anybody who has to create their own custom theme is going to care.

Divs = easy to modify
Tables =  major pain-in-the-butt.

It's 2007, not 1996.  Divs and CSS is the proper way to do layout.  There is no arguing that.

I understand that we are all CSS junkies here because we all work on websites ourselves, but in the end if it didn't make it into SMF 2.0 it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) be a back breaking flaw IMO. ;)
I would consider it a major flaw.  Especially in this day in age.  It ain't 1996 anymore, folks.

Unless tables suddenly do not validate under XHTML 1.0 (which is the standard SMF uses) then it shouldn't be a concern.

Is there not anyone who knows how to do layout with Divs working on the development team.  EVERYTHING--even development--is easier to do with Divs than with tables.  Everything.

Go to any web development forum and tell them that you still use tables for layout and you are going to be seriously laughed at.  I'd rather walk around in plaid bellbottoms, platform shoes, and an orange leather jacket than use tables for layout.  Seriously, I'd be embarassed as a web developer to use tables for layout.

I really care! ::)

Validation alone is not good enough, semantics are important for a variety of reasons and superfluous layout tables are a nightmare when it comes to customization. But, like Aäron said, it's being worked on.

When I was learning web development 3 years ago or so everywhere I looked I saw "don't use tables for layout, don't use tables for layout".  Why SMF has to be years behind the curve, I don't know.

Even phpBB--probably the chief competitor to SMF--is moving to Divs and CSS.  There is no way SMF is going to be able to compete if they stick with tables.

I've seen criticism elsewhere about SMF having sloppy code.  Using Divs for presentation would go a long way toward rectifying that.

Again, we are not in 1996 anymore. There is no good reason to use tables for layout.  There is not a single valid argument other than "we'd rather spend the time working on superfluous features than get with the times and use Divs".

Using tables for layout is like buying a new car with an 8-track cassette player instead of a CD/MP3 player.  It's ancient history.

I understand that you can do more when not using tables, but honestly what more does one do to a forum that you can't do with tables? If you look at other forums that have switched they really haven't done anything that screams 'this forum isn't using tables look how fancy'.

Maybe it's just because I haven't seen the new SMF theme that's being "worked on" but I can tell you that if it looks the same as the current default theme then I don't see the point. But again, that's only my opinion and to be clear I'm not saying it's usless to switch just saying that there isn't a point unless you have the wow factor and show something really nice that can't be done with tables. :-\

I don't mean to be rude, but I think there is something that you just aren't getting.

1) Divs/CSS is the proper way to do layout.  Does any more really need to be said beyond that?

2) Divs/CSS make customizing the theme significantly easier.  Check out the Wordpress themes and see how easy they are to modify because they don't use tables for layout.  Look how hard SMF is to modify because it uses tables AND has presentation buried in the Source files.

3) Divs/CSS make the development process easier, more efficient, and simplifies and unclutters the code.  How can the developers of SMF claim that tables make development easier?

4) It really would not take long to develop a CSS/Div default theme IF the presentational code wasn't so buried in the Source files.  (If this wasn't the case, I'd just make my own Div/CSS theme and make it available to others.  A Div-based theme would be wildly popular.)

Also, I'm not particularly wild about the current default SMF theme.  Making the SMF 2.0 theme look like the 1.x theme shouldn't be a priority.  Even still, that is a moot point when you think of how easy it is to customize a theme when using Divs.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that someone learned web development in 1996 and never bothered to update their skillset.

Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 24, 2007, 07:44:09 PM
1) Divs/CSS is the proper way to do layout.  Does any more really need to be said beyond that?

Yes! Divs are just one type of element that can be styled with CSS and, while still an obvious building block for layouts, often unnecessarily used ('divitis'). ;)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: motumbo on July 24, 2007, 07:44:57 PM
It's not just about what it looks like or what you can do with it, it's about how it works!

[Unknown]?

Why such resistance to using Divs when it would be relatively easy to do?

SMF would work better, be easier to develop, be easier to debug, and be easier to customize if the presentation were separated from the logic and Divs/CSS were used for presentation.

I've made enough webpages to know the benefits of Divs/CSS. 

http://webdesign.about.com/od/layout/a/aa111102a.htm

Web Page Layouts Shouldn't Use Tables

Read the above for a quick overview of why tables should not be used for layout.

Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 24, 2007, 07:46:54 PM
It's not just about what it looks like or what you can do with it, it's about how it works!

[Unknown]?

Eh? ???
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: motumbo on July 24, 2007, 07:48:35 PM
1) Divs/CSS is the proper way to do layout.  Does any more really need to be said beyond that?

Yes! Divs are just one type of element that can be styled with CSS and, while still an obvious building block for layouts, often unnecessarily used ('divitis'). ;)

I think I've had "divitis" before.  I've had "tableitis", too, when I had to customize my SMF theme.  Symptoms are frequent bursts of anger, a pounding headache, the inability to get anything to work the way you want it to, and the urge to pick up your monitor and smash it to the floor.  ;)

I hope I never get "tableitis" again. 
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Killer Possum on July 24, 2007, 07:53:46 PM
lol, wow motumbo you read way too much into what I said and have jumped to way too many conclusions so after the first few sentences I just stopped reading.

I'm talking about a forum template here and NOT design in general. I've seen many amazing tableless designs that are really good and I myself have made tabeless designs as well. And even still that was just my opinion. I understand that it would be easier to modify a template that doesn't use tables but honestly what are you going to do to a forum template that you can't do with the current tabled design? Which, has so few tables in it anyways!

It was not my intention to argue so I will just say this and them I'm done. If you are not going to break out of the box with a design, then why try to cut the tape? (if you will).

Again, just so you get it, I'm talking about a forum template here and not web design in general.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 24, 2007, 07:56:10 PM
I think I've had "divitis" before.  I've had "tableitis", too, when I had to customize my SMF theme.

I'm not arguing divs v. tables (I'm with you on layout tables), but saying that divs are often used in CSS layouts when they're neither desirable nor necessary. If you need a div, use a div, but don't wrap everything in divs just because you think you're supposed to (and, no, this isn't directed at you personally, it's more of a general comment)!
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 24, 2007, 07:58:05 PM
I understand that it would be easier to modify a template that doesn't use tables but honestly what are you going to do to a forum template that you can't do with the current tabled design?

1. Modify it without doing your head in (but you seem to have acknowledged that).
2. Make sense of it in a non-graphical browser.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Killer Possum on July 24, 2007, 08:04:55 PM
2. Make sense of it in a non-graphical browser.

Ah, finally, someone points out to me the purpose of this for a forum (other than it makes things easier, because that I understand). Thank you Peter. I try to keep up with the times but my current job has nothing to do with web design (or websites at all) so I'm a little rusty.

I didn't think of that but it makes sense and so I was actually going to ask you what you meant when you said "it's about how it works!" but saw that you had already answered.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Rudolf on July 24, 2007, 09:13:52 PM
FYI, I converted the display template of the default theme (the one use the most in absolute) into a tableless layout in less then one hour. It was 90% like the original, and with a little more work it could have been 99%. It was an experiment from my part because I just couldn't understand why it takes so long to convert the theme.
I hope SMF 2 will feature way less tables then 1.1. There's no excuse to don't convert it.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: SleePy on July 24, 2007, 10:31:33 PM
Rudolf,
Did you test that on all common browsers?

IE{5,6,7}, Firefox {1,1.5,2.0}, Safari {1.3,2.0,3.0}, Opera {8,9} just to name a few ;)
It can go on but the deal is getting every browser to display it right
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Smith6612 on July 24, 2007, 10:35:12 PM
Don't forget about hand helds... I'm on my PSP right now and the top of this forum is a bit screwed up...
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Rudolf on July 24, 2007, 11:44:23 PM
I tested in Firefox2 and IE6. As I said it was an experiment, and I did it in less then one hour. In a one days work you could easily do a template that works 90% the same in all the browsers. That's a pretty good match.
Now count the templates that are in the default theme. 56 templates, but most of them are very similar.
This thing is really old, it's been years that people say to move towards semantic layout.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Joshua Dickerson on July 25, 2007, 01:21:58 AM
I take it as a flaw too.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: radj on July 25, 2007, 10:55:20 AM
split the "divs vs tables" topic out of this one.

anyhoo.

cant wait for SMF twooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. especially for this feature: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=175812.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 25, 2007, 11:03:55 AM
split the "divs vs tables" topic out of this one.

Why? It's relevant!

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cant wait for SMF twooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

I CANT WAIT!

Of course you can. Everybody can. And not just where SMF is concerned, because we all *have* to wait for things that are not available or happening now! ;)
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: motumbo on July 25, 2007, 07:10:01 PM
Rudolf,
Did you test that on all common browsers?

IE{5,6,7}, Firefox {1,1.5,2.0}, Safari {1.3,2.0,3.0}, Opera {8,9} just to name a few ;)
It can go on but the deal is getting every browser to display it right


Do you know how few people even use IE5 anymore?  My goodness, everyone should just forget about it.  It's dead.  Less than 1/2 of 1% of visitors to my websites use IE5.5 or under.

IE5 is ancient, buggy, and a huge security risk.  There are plenty of alternatives out there.  There is no excuse for anyone using IE5 and even less of an excuse for supporting it these days.

If people refuse to upgrade to something from this century, it is their problem.  Further, I can't see how anyone could argue, if anyone would attempt to, that moving to Divs/CSS is not a good idea because a small minority of people are using ancient browsers.

In a one days work you could easily do a template that works 90% the same in all the browsers. That's a pretty good match.
Now count the templates that are in the default theme. 56 templates, but most of them are very similar.
This thing is really old, it's been years that people say to move towards semantic layout.

See, there is no way I could customize the default SMF theme to Divs/CSS in an hour.  I'm not very familiar with the code or the myriad of places where it is buried. 

Now, if you can do it in such a short period of time, how come the developers of SMF can't?  Again, we've established that there is no good reason to rely on tables anymore in this current era.

So why such stubbornness to move away from tables for layout?  I just do not understand it.

Seriously, if one was familiar with the SMF templating system, such as a developer, it would not be hard to do away with the majority of the tables for layout.

People have been raising this issue for years now.  That is why I was so blown away when I looked at the HTML for the SMF2.0 forum and saw it was a tabled layout.

At the rate SMF changes, if SMF2.0 uses a tabled layout, I wouldn't expect a tableless layout until 2009 or 2010 at the earliest.

I take it as a flaw too.

Yup.  I don't know how SMF can compete when it is relying on ancient tables for layout when phpBB is moving away from them.

Have you seen the new phpBB3 theme?  Nice!  Man, if SMF could do something like that, it would be great.

Anyone who knows anything about web design will tell you this:  do not use tables for layout.

Hopefully the SMF developers who donate their time and skill into making the forum will take heed and make SMF even better by moving to a tableless layout.

 :-\  :-\  :-\






Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Marmot on July 25, 2007, 07:49:53 PM
I have to add my agreement to those who have already voiced concern about tabled design. Adoption of SMF would be much higher if it were to drop the tables. The new RC of phpBB3 is actually a VAST improvement... and if SMF doesn't change it might be something worth checking out for everybody wanting to customize their own forum without having to wade through tables.

Rudolph, if you were to release your div based template I bet you would have more than a few takers...
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Peter Duggan on July 25, 2007, 08:20:09 PM
Do you know how few people even use IE5 anymore?  My goodness, everyone should just forget about it.  It's dead.  Less than 1/2 of 1% of visitors to my websites use IE5.5 or under.

IE5 is ancient, buggy, and a huge security risk.  There are plenty of alternatives out there.  There is no excuse for anyone using IE5 and even less of an excuse for supporting it these days.

If 0.5% of users were on it and you had 100,000 users, you'd be disenfranchising 500 users by actively dropping it. So, no, I'm not suggesting going out of your way to 'support' it, but accommodating it within reason is still perfectly laudable.

Quote
If people refuse to upgrade to something from this century, it is their problem.  Further, I can't see how anyone could argue, if anyone would attempt to, that moving to Divs/CSS is not a good idea because a small minority of people are using ancient browsers.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=divitis (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=divitis)

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Now, if you can do it in such a short period of time, how come the developers of SMF can't?

They can...

Quote
Again, we've established that there is no good reason to rely on tables anymore in this current era.

And they know that...

Quote
So why such stubbornness to move away from tables for layout?  I just do not understand it.

Look, half the Team have done semantic demo templates and AFAIK it's happening...

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Hopefully the SMF developers who donate their time and skill into making the forum will take heed and make SMF even better by moving to a tableless layout.

But not just because you keep harping on about it! So, sure, I'd welcome a clear statement from the Developers, but this perpetual all-out attack is achieving nothing that's not going to happen anyway...
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: SleePy on July 25, 2007, 09:05:47 PM
For your information look at parts of the site. They already are tableless.
It just requires time, Which in a project full of Volunteers it may take some time to complete the project. We all have lives we must attend to everyday, we have jobs we must go to, we have bills to pay (and for a few of us having to pay for all of this to be here). So around our daily lives that we must do we try to fit in some time to do this.
So thats why it make take some time. Not everyone has hours on end to sit there and redo stuff and such as some of us.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: Rudolf on July 25, 2007, 09:20:53 PM
For your information look at parts of the site. They already are tableless.
It just requires time, Which in a project full of Volunteers it may take some time to complete the project. We all have lives we must attend to everyday, we have jobs we must go to, we have bills to pay (and for a few of us having to pay for all of this to be here). So around our daily lives that we must do we try to fit in some time to do this.
So thats why it make take some time. Not everyone has hours on end to sit there and redo stuff and such as some of us.

I have to do everything you listed up there, and even if I'm not a team member I actually try to fit in some time to work on SMF. Finding bugs, writing mods and well, I found one hour to work on this template stuff too. It takes time to finish one thing or another, sometimes months, but never years.
The problem is that SMF follows a closed development strategy, which has it's disadvantages. You ask people to contribute with ideas, feedback, but it gets ignored because the few developers (I think 3 at the moment) who are working on the project don't have time to look at it.

I assure you, Sleepy that those who have the skills and experience to contribute substantially to the project are all people with everyday lives, jobs and family. The problem is that most likely they just turn away from SMF, because it's quite hard to effectively contribute to the project for outsiders. No wonder that you don't find people suitable to become team members. You put up some bars, but you don't let people to reach them.
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: metallica48423 on July 25, 2007, 09:26:23 PM
well said, rudolf
Title: Re: An update on 2.0
Post by: redone on July 25, 2007, 09:33:01 PM
Quite honestly what other projects are doing has no bearing on our direction. We have always made a commitment to deliver the best release we can. We have never disappointed anyone with a new release and I doubt anyone will be disappointed when we release the next versions of SMF.

To pretend the issue you bring to the table (no pun intended!) has been ignored or not answered would be wrong.

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=157209.20

Locked pending future updates.