Was just browsing thru the phpbb3 site as it just went gold and just by chance hit their comparison of features link: http://www.phpbb.com/about/features/compare.php
And they seem to suggest many things that SMF doesn't do which seems to be very incorrect in area's, and some things are done thru plugins in SMF.
Just found it odd that they would do something as seemingly inacurate as that.
I may be wrong but a few specific things I notice they say SMF does not do:
Post Moderation: No (exists by default?)
Allow/Disallow e-mail Address Re-usage: No
Topic Display Method: Flat (this is style/theme dependant yes?
Custom BBCode Buttons: No (what tha?)
WYSIWYG Editor No (theme dependant?)
Post Drafts: No (I guess they mean saving post option prior to posting?)
Flood Control: -- (should be yes I believe.)
Automatic Image Thumbnails: - (should obviously be yes)
Custom Profile Fields: No (yes thru plugin)
Customised Topic Search: No (yes thru plugin)
Password Protected Forums: No (yes thru plugin)
That's not even goin thru the complete list..
Would you expect another forum software to completely understand what their competitors software is capable of?
http://www.forummatrix.org/compare.php?prods[]=63&prods[]=21&x=9&y=21
haha yah it does look like they took their list from that site funny
Thats a new one since when could phpbb3 do
Lo-Fi View
and
Export private messages
?
False feature advertisement.
It is also comparing to 1.1.4.
What I don't like is the moderator vs admin control panel. For example it says no for banning in the moderator panel but yes in the admin panel. That makes it seem like banning is admin only when it isn't. You can give anyone ban permission.
I am happy for the phpBB team as it is always nice to get a release out the door.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Post Moderation: No (exists by default?)
This would be changed come 2.0. They're going from 1.1.4.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Allow/Disallow e-mail Address Re-usage: No
This is quite correct. You cant register an email address that has already been assigned to an account because you can login with your email address.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Topic Display Method: Flat (this is style/theme dependant yes?
Indeed it is, but so far, we haven't seen a single theme that has Threaded or Hybrid views.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Custom BBCode Buttons: No (what tha?)
Not by default in the admin center (which I'm assuming they studied) but it is possible to create your own custom BBC tags if you know how in Subs.php
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
WYSIWYG Editor No (theme dependant?)
Well, if going from the 2.0 version its source and JS dependant. But this will change to yes for 2.0.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Post Drafts: No (I guess they mean saving post option prior to posting?)
I should assume so. If I remember correctly, it was discussed for 2.0 but not finalised... I cant remember the outcome on that.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Flood Control: -- (should be yes I believe.)
Automatic Image Thumbnails: - (should obviously be yes)
Indeed they should be yes.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Custom Profile Fields: No (yes thru plugin)
Mod for 1.1 yes, default for 2.0 :P
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Customised Topic Search: No (yes thru plugin)
Password Protected Forums: No (yes thru plugin)
Mod yes.
I'm assuming they aren't taking mods into account.
thx for the replies and verification/info on those.
Quote from: SleePy on December 13, 2007, 02:01:28 PMWould you expect another forum software to completely understand what their competitors software is capable of?
http://www.forummatrix.org/compare.php?prods[]=63&prods[]=21&x=9&y=21
This was precisely the challenge we had to face when creating that page, and we expected to miss a few things because none of the team members have enough experience with SMF to know the details of the system.
Please note, however, that we did not take into account any third-party MODs or Plugins outside of mentioning the Joomla! bridge for CMS. As if those were taken into account, we could strike Yes on nearly every feature for phpBB3. The goal of the chart is to list the features that come with the default code-base without any modifications, add-ons, or plugins being installed.
I'm going over this list now and will make the necessary corrections for the comparison chart, It would be great if we could get the list completely accurate for SMF, it is certainly not our intention to do "False Feature Advertisement".
We do respect other Bulletin Board Software and want to be as accurate as possible. If we do have inaccuracies in any of the features listed, please let me know so I can make the changes in the list.
We also have a bug tracker that is meant to handle inaccuracies in parts of the website so that they can be promptly addressed and remedied.
Thank you guys for pointing these out! :)
Thanks for fixing that up.
taking 3 years for a revision? - is like walking a dead :)
I don't see anything wrong with that. Why not have a solid, stable product? The fact that they wanted the software flawless should not be an issue.
Quote from: Ol' Wombat on December 13, 2007, 08:25:43 PM
taking 3 years for a revision? - is like walking a dead :)
Please lets be polite and not bash on any forum system. Also please lets stay on point and be polite. :)
BTW: Congrats on the release :).
Bashing? not my intent at all..
just criticising the looong development time - that's all!
Highway of Life,
I'll take a proper look through and see what else I can find.
Limit username Chars
This is set to 60 everywhere, so that's what you're referring to then you might wanna change that to yes, though, I think it could be actually made a setting in SMF 2.0.
Post Drafts
Does "Preview" count? :P
Forum Rules
User Agreement?
Subscribe to Forums
That is doable. Click Notify when inside a board, and Current Board Notifications section in the "Notifications" section of your profile.
Manage Attachments
This should be changed to yes. Admin > Attachments and Avatars in 1.1, for all. 2.0 refines the attachments more to each user.
Group-based Memberlist Display
Admin > Membergroups > [MEMBERGROUP]
Localised Moderator Logs
Yes, but it has to be turned on in the Admin Center. Admin > Features and Options > Log moderation actions. Then Admin > Moderator Logs to view them.
Post Details
What sort of details?
Move Multiple Topics
You'll need to turn this on in your profile. Profile > Look and Layout Preferences > Show quick-moderation on message index as > Checkboxes and some dropdowns and checkboxes allow you to move, delete, sticky and merge multiple topics at once.
Manage Bans
These are admin actions only, I don't know why they would be in the Mod CP in the first place IMO. But at any rate, you can use permissions to allow any membergroup you choose to ban other users.
Customise/Edit Imagesets
They're editable in a Graphics Editor. :P
Instant Messaging
What about the MSN/YIM/ICQ/AIM fields in the profile and the PM system?
Convertor Wizard
We do have a converter wizard, it's convert.php and is available in all the converter packages on the download page.
In the case of "Forum rules", "Forum" is what we call a "board", so no, SMF doesn't have that.
Well, we have Board Based Permissions, which I suppose could count, depends on how they're referring to it I guess.
A chart means nothing. All someone has to do is test install both...and it will be clear which one they should use..i mean honestly. It's time for phpbb retirement.
As for the inaccuracy of the chart itself, it's obviously biased, but all companies do that. They are just trying to make their product look like it still compares to any of the other three mentioned, which is not a big deal.
Quote from: Tippmaster on December 13, 2007, 09:20:24 PM
A chart means nothing. All someone has to do is test install both...
True, this is the best way for someone to choose which forum software to use at their website and not be judged by some charter or comparisons
Makes me laugh, roflmao
Quote from: karlbenson on December 13, 2007, 09:33:50 PM
Makes me laugh, roflmao
I take exception to that. phpBB 3.0 has had a fully paid professional audit.
NeoThermic
Then you've never been hacked.
I've been member/moderator/admin on over half a dozen or more PHPBB sites over the last 5 years, every single one of which has been brought down by widely posted exploits in the core phpbb at least once, forcing to revert to backup.
Thats my experience. But ask anyone, PHPBB has a reputation for being insecure.
18 months with SMF, not once.
Quote from: NeoThermic on December 13, 2007, 09:36:09 PM
.....
I take exception to that. phpBB 3.0 has had a fully paid professional audit.
NeoThermic
what exactly does that mean?
Quote from: Ol' Wombat on December 13, 2007, 09:46:03 PM
Quote from: NeoThermic on December 13, 2007, 09:36:09 PM
.....
I take exception to that. phpBB 3.0 has had a fully paid professional audit.
NeoThermic
what exactly does that mean?
It means that a security professional who gets paid to test for exploits in systems by white-boxing the code (i.e. they have the full source infront of them) looks though and sees if exploits can be done. The result of the audit is a report which details anything found. Developers can use the report given to fix anything as required.
This means that out of the box, 3.0 is *very* secure. I'd be surprised to see any exploits for it soon. If you wish to know what was fixed, any i## items in this list (http://www.phpbb.com/support/documents.php?mode=changelog&version=3#v30rc5) are the result of the audit.
NeoThermic
Quote from: shadow82x on December 13, 2007, 08:48:21 PMI don't see anything wrong with that. Why not have a solid, stable product? The fact that they wanted the software flawless should not be an issue.
Yes, unfortunately it took longer than normal. Actually, it was 5 years, though it wasn't a revision, but a major version. :)
We'll be building on this codebase though, it's quite solid so hopefully the *revisions* will not be long and involved. Our main goal was not to set a release date, but try to get it as stable and secure as possible prior to the release, this is one reason it took a long time, but certainly not the only reason. The mid-way rewrite probably hurt the time factor the most.
Quote from: JayBachatero on December 13, 2007, 08:53:55 PMBTW: Congrats on the release :).
Thanks. We're all looking forward to a little sleep after this. :D
Quote from: Gazmanafc on December 13, 2007, 09:11:44 PMHighway of Life,
I'll take a proper look through and see what else I can find.
Limit username Chars
This is set to 60 everywhere, so that's what you're referring to then you might wanna change that to yes, though, I think it could be actually made a setting in SMF 2.0.
Cool, thanks so much for taking the time to do that. I really appreciate it.
Is the 60 char limit adjustable or static?
QuotePost Drafts
Does "Preview" count? :P
Drafts are actually different than preview. You can save a draft of a post or private message for later use. For example, you might be typing up a post, and have to leave and go do something, so you would simply hit the "save" button and it saves the draft to your profile. You can then view each draft individually and also load them up into a new reply or private message.
QuoteForum Rules
User Agreement?
The Forum rules are basically like forum description, in that each individual forum can be assigned its own set of forum rules. This forum rules can be displayed right under the header whenever you are viewing that forum.
e.g.: (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmyskitch.com%2Fhighwayoflife%2Fforum_rules-20071213-204139.jpg%2Fpreview.jpg&hash=af93600e78712de939def5f941edd34ea42f7f98) (http://myskitch.com/highwayoflife/forum_rules-20071213-204139.jpg)
QuoteSubscribe to ForumsThat is doable. Click Notify when inside a board, and Current Board Notifications section in the "Notifications" section of your profile.
Cool, will add that to the list. So you can do notifications for both forums as well as topics?
Saw the notify on this topic, nice. :)
QuoteManage AttachmentsThis should be changed to yes. Admin > Attachments and Avatars in 1.1, for all. 2.0 refines the attachments more to each user.
K, Admin manage in 1.1, user + admin manage in 2.0.
QuoteGroup-based Memberlist Display
Admin > Membergroups > [MEMBERGROUP]
Erm, little different, probably could use some additional clarity as well... sometimes its hard to compact a complete feature description into a small line of text. :)
In phpBB3, you can click on a group and it will show you all the users in that group in the memberlist on the user-facing side. i.e. not only in the Admin panel.
QuoteLocalised Moderator LogsYes, but it has to be turned on in the Admin Center. Admin > Features and Options > Log moderation actions. Then Admin > Moderator Logs to view them.
K, will change that.
QuotePost Details
What sort of details?
Shows IP for the Poster, will also show Other users posting from this IP, IP addresses this user has posted from, and a Whois Lookup on each IP. You can also change the Post Author or edit the post (if permissions allow) through the post details.
QuoteMove Multiple Topics
You'll need to turn this on in your profile. Profile > Look and Layout Preferences > Show quick-moderation on message index as > Checkboxes and some dropdowns and checkboxes allow you to move, delete, sticky and merge multiple topics at once.
Cool, will change that as well.
QuoteManage BansThese are admin actions only, I don't know why they would be in the Mod CP in the first place IMO. But at any rate, you can use permissions to allow any membergroup you choose to ban other users.
K... I'll make sure they are in the ACP section, phpBB3 has a ban management in both the MCP and ACP, both permission controlled of course.
QuoteCustomise/Edit Imagesets
They're editable in a Graphics Editor. :P
Hmm... how do you mean?
In phpBB3, you can edit which image you want to appear where, for example, you want to change the logo, you would just choose a different image from that directory in the popup menu. Or the "Forum with SubForums" Image, as another example.
It doesn't relate to actually editing the images themselves. :D
QuoteInstant MessagingWhat about the MSN/YIM/ICQ/AIM fields in the profile and the PM system?
This could probably use more clarity as well. phpBB3 supports instant messaging through the phpBB3 system using Jabber, aside from just having the MSN/AIM/YIM/ICQ etc in the profiles. For example, it will instant message you of a topic reply notification if you have that option turned on in your user preferences.
QuoteConvertor WizardWe do have a converter wizard, it's convert.php and is available in all the converter packages on the download page.
K, I'll add that.
Again, thanks for going through all those, hopefully the above provides a bit more clarity for those as well, but it helps a lot to get an outsider opinion, since it gives the perspective of not being as familiar with the features.
Quote from: Oldiesmann on December 13, 2007, 09:13:13 PMIn the case of "Forum rules", "Forum" is what we call a "board", so no, SMF doesn't have that.
Same here, actually phpBB3 has forum specific rules, but it doesn't have an actual "Board rules" page per sé.
Good thread. Nice to see discussion between the two leading open-source forum software communities, especially in such a respectful fashion. I like SMF better, thats why I converted to SMF from phpbb. Competition is good, it makes for better software all the way around, just as it does in sport.
Still, I think SMF is ahead right now by far, and I am not looking backward. Lets compare SMF 2 to phppBB 3, and then decide. And if there is a way to work together, I think that would be preferable personally.
We don't appreciate flaming other software. If we have to belittle the efforts of the other organizations for any reason, it doesn't help our own community but makes our group seem petty and childish.
I won't delete the first few posts, but in the future, please remember to curb the temptation to stand on the rooftops and scream about how great SMF really is (even though we already know the truth ;) )
Quote from: Ol' Wombat on December 13, 2007, 08:25:43 PM
taking 3 years for a revision? - is like walking a dead :)
Remember, phpBB, like us (and other projects) are run by volunteers.
Team members come and go depending on real life demands.
Putting out a product such as a forum take tons of man hours to
design, debug, and test and isn't an easy task.
While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, please keep in mind
the views and the thoughts of others, and more importantly SMF's core values.
( I'm not directing this @ you Wombat, but to this post in general. )
Quote#
Friendly Competition
We exist in a competitive world, with many other alternative software titles. We will persevere in this arena through quality and respect, not through antagonism and hate. We will support competitors and treat them as we would have them treat us. We will not insult, disparage or in any other way teardown other projects, businesses or organizations.
Karl, while we recognize that phpbb might have had problems in the past, we really push to respect everyone's efforts.
In this as well, we harbor no ill will towards them in response to their comparison list, given it might be exclusionary of a few things, but, that is their thing and its neither here nor there.
To address everyone else: I don't want this to turn into a flame phpbb3 over this dedication thread because they have come a long way since phpbb2. Its been pretty good overall so far.
This is their day to celebrate their hard work over the past few years. So keep it friendly and respectful or i will have to lock this thread.
Quote from: Highway of LifeQuoteGroup-based Memberlist Display
Admin > Membergroups > [MEMBERGROUP]
Erm, little different, probably could use some additional clarity as well... sometimes its hard to compact a complete feature description into a small line of text. :)
In phpBB3, you can click on a group and it will show you all the users in that group in the memberlist on the user-facing side. i.e. not only in the Admin panel.
The same is in under ADMIN > Member Groups > It'll show you a hyperlinked number, you click on that, there's your grouped members. :)
Quote from: Highway of LifeQuotePost Details
What sort of details?
Shows IP for the Poster, will also show Other users posting from this IP, IP addresses this user has posted from, and a Whois Lookup on each IP. You can also change the Post Author or edit the post (if permissions allow) through the post details.
We actually have that information, though it's expanded considerably. You can click on an IP address at the lower right of each post and it'll show the majority of that information, as well as any error messages (actual errors or ban logs), plus other users possibly in the same range. The "Change Post Author" thing isn't on SMF.
There's also editing a post via AJAX (no page reloads needed) or actual edits.
Quote from: Highway of Life on December 13, 2007, 10:01:02 PMOur main goal was not to set a release date, but try to get it as stable and secure as possible prior to the release
You're not the only ones who think like that. phpBB and SMF are similar in that aspect as we don't like to set release dates either. I listened to your podcast, we have the same "It'll be released when it's released" philosophy.
QuoteIs the 60 char limit adjustable or static?
It's static. Though like I said, I think it should be adjustable in SMF 2.0, and I'll probably post it in the team boards not long after this post. :P
QuoteCool, will add that to the list. So you can do notifications for both forums as well as topics?
Saw the notify on this topic, nice. :)
Indeed, you can set notifications on both Topics and Boards.
QuoteErm, little different, probably could use some additional clarity as well... sometimes its hard to compact a complete feature description into a small line of text. :)
In phpBB3, you can click on a group and it will show you all the users in that group in the memberlist on the user-facing side. i.e. not only in the Admin panel.
In that case, no we don't have that, at least not to regular users, unless you're sorting the memberlist by membergroup. But that'll display all of the users still but group them all by their membergroup. In 2.0 though, we do have a Membergroup Legend which will function similar to how phpBB 3's does.
QuoteShows IP for the Poster, will also show Other users posting from this IP, IP addresses this user has posted from, and a Whois Lookup on each IP.
This we have by going to a Users Profile then "Track IP", you can also see Error Messages by the User, the IP that user has used, Members in close range of all of the IPs used by that member, and the most recent IP. The "Show Permissions" link in the profile will show you all the permissions that user has.
QuoteIn phpBB3, you can edit which image you want to appear where, for example, you want to change the logo, you would just choose a different image from that directory in the popup menu. Or the "Forum with SubForums" Image, as another example.
It doesn’t relate to actually editing the images themselves. :D
Heh. In that case, we allow users to change the logo URL in the admin center (Admin > Current Theme), but that's usually what most themes do (logo only) but there are some themes that will allow you to change other images as well via that panel. (I.e Themes can add new settings for that section that wouldn't be there for the default theme)
QuoteThis could probably use more clarity as well. phpBB3 supports instant messaging through the phpBB3 system using Jabber, aside from just having the MSN/AIM/YIM/ICQ etc in the profiles. For example, it will instant message you of a topic reply notification if you have that option turned on in your user preferences.
In that case, nah, we don't have any of that.
Quote from: NeoThermic on December 13, 2007, 09:52:17 PM
..
It means that a security professional who gets paid to test for exploits...
I figured that already but who exactly is that professional? - shy of naming?
Quote from: Tippmaster on December 13, 2007, 09:20:24 PM
A chart means nothing. All someone has to do is test install both...and it will be clear which one they should use..
In the end, a chart should not be the deciding factor, but it's an excellent place to start when a user is looking for a bulletin board software to choose from. Sure there are sites like forummatrix, but they list very generic features, we wanted to get a lot more detailed with each feature.
Quotei mean honestly. It's time for phpbb retirement.
Thanks, I appreciate the compliment. ::)
QuoteAs for the inaccuracy of the chart itself, it's obviously biased, but all companies do that. They are just trying to make their product look like it still compares to any of the other three mentioned, which is not a big deal.
Well, it's going to have a degree of biasses, it's the features that we are comparing, we are intimately familiar with phpBB3, whereas we are not as familiar with others like SMF, which is why I'm here. If it was truly intentionally biased, I wouldn't be here asking questions to try and improve the accuracy of the list. We attempted to pull a list off of this site, but couldn't find any. Likewise, Prior to making the list, if an SMF staff member tried to find all the features of phpBB3, they would have been at an equal disadvantage.
I'm very happy to hear and see that SMF takes Security top priority, but you should know that it is unwise to speak of what you do not know.
SMF 1.1 was not developed 5 years ago, phpBB2 was, phpBB was an infant back then and no, they didn't take Security seriously in the beginning. 5 years ago, the internet was a much friendlier place, unfortunately, phpBB3 came 2 years late.
Ever since the major security issue of phpBB 2.0.10, The phpBB Teams have made an incredible effort to make Security their number one priority, and ever since then, it has been. Since the internal code security inspection that produced phpBB 2.0.18, phpBB2 did not have anymore major security vulnerabilities, and the rest of the updates to the 2.0.22 point were made on stability and bug fixes. As a testament to the security of even phpBB2 since then, 2.0.22 has been released for ever a year, with no reported security vulnerabilities or problems. On the flip side, phpBB3 was developed from the ground up with security in mind first, and usability and features second. As you should now know, phpBB3 is a completely different codebase than phpBB2, a complete re-write, which broke backward compatibility with 2.0.x and thus went from 2.2 to 3.0 as a completely new version.
If the phpBB Teams did not consider PHP a top priority, they would not have paid to have the External Security Audit performed by SektionEins. and Stefan Esser, who happens to be one of the foremost experts on PHP Security.
Stefan personally oversaw the Code Audit of phpBB3 and approved it, giving the phpBB Teams some additional steps to take for added security measures. Since phpBB3 has entered Release Candidate stage, it has been acclaimed by many PHP Security experts as having major improvements and holding it up as an example to other PHP Applications in the areas of Security.
No, this didn't happen with phpBB2, but this is phpBB3 we are talking about... the new release.
If you're going to make statements like this, you better be able to back them up. I noted that you said phpBB3 is guaranteed to get hacked. I would like to inform you that tens of thousands of boards were running on phpBB3 RC, and not a single one was hacked, and unless you can prove otherwise, you should retract your statement.
A paid professional audit can vary quite widely which can mean the cost/detail/effectiveness/quality of the audit can vary.
It can be done by a human and/or computer
Analyzing exploits just on the source (with option to combine with known bugs issues that may occur with certain versions of PHP and/or mysql). eg php4.4.1 may have a specific issue with php function 'x' that could be exploited.
The company employed
The level/experience of the security professional
The time alotted
It is also usually customary to stamp the auditors information when referring to a paid audit with a date / version
eg
Performed by PaidSecurityAudit Corp. 28-10-2007 3.0RC2
Re: BlackMage comments and directed towards NeoThermic
Indeed, the last thing I would ever seek to do (for lack of a better word) cause a flame war about the competition.
My comments so far in this topic are entirely based on personal experience over many years and many installations. (and as such I would feel justified in airing them). [I would also make clear, the inaccuracy of the comparison list did NOT bore out my comments].
If final PHPBB3 resolves all the fundamental issues with previous RC releases then fair do.
But trust is easy to lose, almost impossible to win back.
Highway of life, thanks for posting. Its good to read all this stuff to be able to see a good comparison in some features. As always, competition is good. And from the looks of it, you guys have something good going on with this release. Congrats, and good luck in the future. Look out for SMF 2.0. >:D
Quote from: weightman on December 13, 2007, 10:02:54 PM
Good thread. Nice to see discussion between the two leading open-source forum software communities, especially in such a respectful fashion. I like SMF better, thats why I converted to SMF from phpbb. Competition is good, it makes for better software all the way around, just as it does in sport.
Certainly. :)
QuoteStill, I think SMF is ahead right now by far, and I am not looking backward. Lets compare SMF 2 to phppBB 3, and then decide. And if there is a way to work together, I think that would be preferable personally.
Everybody has their own likes and dislikes, as someone famous once said "Nothing is so good, that somebody, somewhere, will not like it" and of course, is true with Software, it can never be absolutely perfect, programmers know there is no such thing, though users expect it. :)
I don't know the status of SMF 2, is it released already?
Quote from: BlackMage on December 13, 2007, 10:06:02 PM
Karl, while we recognize that phpbb might have had problems in the past, we really push to respect everyone's efforts.
In this as well, we harbor no ill will towards them in response to their comparison list, given it might be exclusionary of a few things, but, that is their thing and its neither here nor there.
To address everyone else: I don't want this to turn into a flame phpbb3 over this dedication thread because they have come a long way since phpbb2. Its been pretty good overall so far.
This is their day to celebrate their hard work over the past few years. So keep it friendly and respectful or i will have to lock this thread.
Thanks for the kind words.
Our goal is certainly not to make the list an exclusionary list, which is why I'm here, so I'm certainly open to any corrections you guys have about it. :)
This topic kinda reminds me of the Car Insurance Commercials we see all the time, each competitor posting how much you can save over the other company. Funny how you always get the best deal depending on which site you are visiting.
However, unlike Insurance companies, there is no Corporate Greed involved here, there is no money to be made. Only friendly competition, which is why I'm posting in here today, to try and bridge the understanding for both teams. :)
Quote from: karlbenson on December 13, 2007, 10:23:52 PM
A paid professional audit can vary quite widely which can mean the cost/detail/effectiveness/quality of the audit can vary.
It can be done by a human and/or computer
Analyzing exploits just on the source (with option to combine with known bugs issues that may occur with certain versions of PHP and/or mysql). eg php4.4.1 may have a specific issue with php function 'x' that could be exploited.
The company employed
The level/experience of the security professional
The time alotted
It is also usually customary to stamp the auditors information when referring to a paid audit with a date / version
eg
Performed by PaidSecurityAudit Corp. 28-10-2007 3.0RC2
Sure. It was done by SektionEins (http://www.sektioneins.de/content/en.4004.24.28502.content2.html) (to be pedantic, by Stefan Esser himself). It was done on the 15.10.07, with a copy of RC5, which resulted in the RC6/7 release.
If the name Stefan Esser didn't ring any bells, he's the guy who used to run the security for PHP itself. He then started up the
hardened-php project (http://www.hardened-php.net). I'm of the opinion that you couldn't choose anyone better for the task.
NeoThermic
Quote from: Highway of Life on December 13, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
as someone famous once said "Nothing is so good, that somebody, somewhere, will not like it"
Ohh I like that or do I dislike it? >:D
Quote
I don't know the status of SMF 2, is it released already?
SMF 2 is still in Beta status and has only been released to charter members.
Quote from: Highway of LifeI don't know the status of SMF 2, is it released already?
Nope... I'm waiting for the next beta myself (no ETA as of yet)... got a few forums to upgrade at that point (from the 1.x series).
Quote from: Highway of LifeHowever, unlike Insurance companies, there is no Corporate Greed involved here, there is no money to be made. Only friendly competition, which is why I'm posting in here today, to try and bridge the understanding for both teams. :)
Nothing more than bragging rights! ::laughs:: (and no, I'm not a fan of phpBB... I'm what you would call an SMF Purist) Both of the phpBB reps here have handled themselves with grace, dignity and class. Let's not disrespect them, folks, and return the favors in kind.
Quote from: Highway of Life on December 13, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
I don’t know the status of SMF 2, is it released already?
Released to Charter Members yes, There's a couple of topics about the status of 2.0 in the Developers Blog (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=129.0). Of course we're only on Beta 1.1 so there's still plenty of work to be done on it.
Dang Thantos beat me to it but I cant be bothered to edit my post :P Besides mine kinda states some more useful info ;)Quote from: Highway of Life on December 13, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Only friendly competition, which is why I’m posting in here today, to try and bridge the understanding for both teams. :)
Indeed, we may produce different softwares but that doesn't mean that we cant talk to each other like friends. :)
Highway of life,
You have acquitted yourself well. I stand by my earlier statement that competition is good and all will benefit as a result of it. Still, I think a comparison is really only valid between SMF2 and phpbb 3 since SMF 2 is due out, most likely, in the next couple/few months. Then, a team effort to develop a feature comparison listing would be very cool. And, both can implement/copy the best of each other's work. And the cycle of development continues. Even preferable to that, would be a merging of both projects as I am sure both communities have things to offer.
Still, I am loyal to SMF as I feel it has been extremely supportive to my efforts and the software is more intuitive than the phpbb 2 series I used to run. But, I am not closed minded and will do some testing of phpbb 3.
Thanks for posting. It might be time to retire.
Quote from: Douglas on December 13, 2007, 10:15:45 PM
Quote from: Highway of LifeQuoteGroup-based Memberlist Display
Admin > Membergroups > [MEMBERGROUP]
Erm, little different, probably could use some additional clarity as well... sometimes its hard to compact a complete feature description into a small line of text. :)
In phpBB3, you can click on a group and it will show you all the users in that group in the memberlist on the user-facing side. i.e. not only in the Admin panel.
The same is in under ADMIN > Member Groups > It'll show you a hyperlinked number, you click on that, there's your grouped members. :)
On the user facing side? I know you can do that in the admin panel in both pieces of software, but how do you get there if you're not an admin?
QuoteQuote from: Highway of LifeQuotePost Details
What sort of details?
Shows IP for the Poster, will also show Other users posting from this IP, IP addresses this user has posted from, and a Whois Lookup on each IP. You can also change the Post Author or edit the post (if permissions allow) through the post details.
We actually have that information, though it's expanded considerably. You can click on an IP address at the lower right of each post and it'll show the majority of that information, as well as any error messages (actual errors or ban logs), plus other users possibly in the same range. The "Change Post Author" thing isn't on SMF.
There's also editing a post via AJAX (no page reloads needed) or actual edits.
Okay, sounds about the same, I'll add it. Thanks for the clarification. :)
For reference, there is a lot of information that is displayed there depending on your options, but it's hard to sum it all up into one description. :)
Gazmanafc, thanks so much for the additional info, I'll have to look through the rest later, I need a few days of sleep and have a lot of actual work work (not volunteer work) that I need to catch up on. :)
Quote from: Wombat409 on December 13, 2007, 10:20:01 PM
Quote from: NeoThermic on December 13, 2007, 09:52:17 PM
..
It means that a security professional who gets paid to test for exploits...
I figured that already but who exactly is that professional? - shy of naming?
I named them in my post above.
And no, we're not shy of naming them, as they have quite a reputation in the Security Industry. ;)
Quote from: karlbenson on December 13, 2007, 10:23:52 PM
A paid professional audit can vary quite widely which can mean the cost/detail/effectiveness/quality of the audit can vary.
It can be done by a human and/or computer
Analyzing exploits just on the source (with option to combine with known bugs issues that may occur with certain versions of PHP and/or mysql). eg php4.4.1 may have a specific issue with php function 'x' that could be exploited.
The company employed
The level/experience of the security professional
The time alotted
It was done on multiple levels, including computer analysis, but the final high-level code audit came through a line-by-line code audit by a human. Stefan Esser himself. :)
QuoteIt is also usually customary to stamp the auditors information when referring to a paid audit with a date / version
eg
Performed by PaidSecurityAudit Corp. 28-10-2007 3.0RC2
OH? and you would know?
However, this was done in both the RC6 and RC7 release announcements, you can view them in the Announcements forum on phpBB.com if you wish. It's also in the press releases.
QuoteRe: BlackMage comments and directed towards NeoThermic
Indeed, the last thing I would ever seek to do (for lack of a better word) cause a flame war about the competition.
My comments so far in this topic are entirely based on personal experience over many years and many installations. (and as such I would feel justified in airing them). [I would also make clear, the inaccuracy of the comparison list did NOT bore out my comments].
On this side, it did feel like you were trying to start a flame war. No harm done though, I realise I'm posting on YOUR board. :)
QuoteIf final PHPBB3 resolves all the fundamental issues with previous RC releases then fair do.
But trust is easy to lose, almost impossible to win back.
Unfortunately, this does seem to be the case. But sometimes people look at half the side of an issue, all they see is a Security Exploit, and they never go beyond that to see what the entity did to address the issue and concern. And in many cases, some users see something someone posted on a board or blog post (i.e. "I has the script that will hack into the software") and believe it, without verifying if the report is true or false, and yet even this can destroy a reputation.
The funny thing, is that phpBB actually fixed the vulnerability before it came widespread, but it became widespread because people didn't upgrade.
This is fixed now in newer versions and is why software must "Call home", because if there is an urgent security fix, people need to download it right away, whether it be your Operating System: Windows XP, a browser, such as IE6, or a forum software, such as phpBB2. All three of these, ironically, are highly targeted. Why? because they own the market in their realm. I run on Mac OS X, and we don't have anywhere near the security exploits that Windows Software does. The main reason being that Windows is used by the majority of the market. Hackers don't target something that is not as widely used.
( Besides the fact that OS X really is more secure. >:D hehe)
Quote from: IchBin™ on December 13, 2007, 10:30:08 PM
Highway of life, thanks for posting. Its good to read all this stuff to be able to see a good comparison in some features. As always, competition is good. And from the looks of it, you guys have something good going on with this release. Congrats, and good luck in the future. Look out for SMF 2.0. >:D
We look forward to it. Thanks for the kind words. :)
Okay, I've typed up a storm tonight and need to get something done. :D
Thanks for the feedback and wonderful discussions.
Quote
Thanks for the kind words.
Our goal is certainly not to make the list an exclusionary list, which is why I'm here, so I'm certainly open to any corrections you guys have about it.
I didn't mean to make it sound as if we (the team) felt that way, but rather portraying what i've seen of this thread. Maybe there has been a mix up but it speaks volumes about phpbb that you're willing to look at it seriously :)
I've not personally seen the chart and don't have any personal comments as well. And i will also admit that i've had problems with phpbb in the past, including security but, so what? It happened a long time ago and it was corrected... personally i dislike that phpbb gets negativity over something that they handled like any other software developer -- fixed it.
I do appreciate the friendly discussion as well. It is nice to know that both teams can coexist in a friendly manner. I'd like to see corporations try it. Actually, i'd like to see something on this level happen with our common competitors as well. Unfortunately I don't actually think either are going to ever happen :P
/me heats up the popcorn ::). :P
Anyways, definitely congrats on the phpbb3 release. I hope its the start of a lot of good things to come :)
What the heck, one last?
Quote from: weightman on December 13, 2007, 10:46:00 PM
Highway of life,
You have acquitted yourself well. I stand by my earlier statement that competition is good and all will benefit as a result of it. Still, I think a comparison is really only valid between SMF2 and phpbb 3 since SMF 2 is due out, most likely, in the next couple/few months. Then, a team effort to develop a feature comparison listing would be very cool. And, both can implement/copy the best of each other's work. And the cycle of development continues. Even preferable to that, would be a merging of both projects as I am sure both communities have things to offer.
Still, I am loyal to SMF as I feel it has been extremely supportive to my efforts and the software is more intuitive than the phpbb 2 series I used to run. But, I am not closed minded and will do some testing of phpbb 3.
Thanks for posting. It might be time to retire.
Cool, I like that idea. :)
For now, we'll have to compare with 1.1 since it is the released version, but as soon as 2.0 comes out, I would be more than happy to collaborate with an SMF representative to get a list back and fourth, and update our comparison with the latest. We trying to keep with stable releases in our comparison, and will try and keep it updated as best as we can.
We'll see how that goes. ::laughs::
Quote from: Highway of Life on December 13, 2007, 10:49:36 PM
Gazmanafc, thanks so much for the additional info, I’ll have to look through the rest later, I need a few days of sleep and have a lot of actual work work (not volunteer work) that I need to catch up on. :)
Heheh. I seriously cant blame you. What with all the mod approving and support you'll be doing for phpBB 3 now. ;) I'm kinda the same right now as it's 4am where I am right now, and I also have to approve themes and support for SMF. :P
Anyways congrats on the release of phpBB 3 and I wish you good luck with it and future versions.
QuoteFor now, we'll have to compare with 1.1 since it is the released version, but as soon as 2.0 comes out, I would be more than happy to collaborate with an SMF representative to get a list back and fourth, and update our comparison with the latest.
Very cool, a friendly, cooperative, if still competitive effort, between the two communtiies, would be impressive indeed- from both sides. Still, I think at the very least you should compare to SMF 1.14, the latest public release rather than 1.1. Or do you mean 1.1x? Or maybe I am wrong. I am not a developer and thats why I posted in the thread, to give another, maybe more objective, peaceful viewpoint.
Cheers
^ It does say 1.1.4 on the page :P
Highway of life,
Thank you for your comments. Good luck to all of you over at phpbb
:D
Oh? Do you know something? Please share. If there are exploits for phpBB3, I would like to know. I chose forums based on
facts - not on
fear mongering.
QuoteSMF: Security is a top priority, thats why we are taking our time to ensure SMF 2.0 is stable.
And just how much time do you think it took for phpBB3 to get released?
Why, then, are you running the latest version of SMF? Why isn't 1.1.0 good enough for you? If the only problems people ever experience with SMF are due to compromised shared hosts (which SMF can't do anything about, anyway), isn't upgrading just a waste of your time?
Alot of feedback sinse earlier..
For clairity: I never intended to start this thread for the purpose to flame phpbb itself just the inacuracies and what appeared to be someone posting very inacurate information which seemed no body bothered to attempt to verify any of the information from whatever sources they came from..
That is what I took exception to not phpbb3 itself just someone providing -mis-information- due to being lazy or lack of time or not knowing any better(take your pick).
I actually do have alot of respect for phpbb in general that is where I started learning php.. but then I found SMF and it just suites my needs better for the most part. But I track and watch the progress of many forums, one of which is punbb if they actually get their next releases in order it should be very nice as well.
But I will call a spade a spade no matter what my current forum is that I may have installed that's not where I was coming from ;), it is not my fault if others take it out of context there is very little I can do about that :-X.
Thank you to everyone who responded with good information and attitudes to provide accurate information on everything.
To the phpBB team: Nice work! phpBB 3 is definitely a significant improvement over phpBB 2. To be honest, I like phpBB3 more than vBulletin :)
QuoteIf the phpBB Teams did not consider PHP a top priority, they would not have paid to have the External Security Audit performed by SektionEins. and Stefan Esser, who happens to be one of the foremost experts on PHP Security.
Indeed, Stefan Esser started the Hardened-PHP project and writes the Suhosin PHP extension and patch :)
Quote from: Daniel15 on December 14, 2007, 12:46:44 AM
To the phpBB team: Nice work! phpBB 3 is definitely a significant improvement over phpBB 2. To be honest, I like phpBB3 more than vBulletin :)
I agree with you there. I actually started with phpBB and came to SMF for the calendar feature :P.
QuoteI chose forums based on facts - not on fear mongering.
Very wise choice, though i don't feel that was the intention in Karl's post.
Thats one thing that gets me about things these days... fanboyism -- not that i am accusing anyone of this i certainly am not... Fanboyism tends to run very rampant sometimes and causes huge rifts between generally complacent groups of people. With that comes the opinions shoved down people's throats... not a place to want to be... which is why i made my comment above, that nothing has been done to warrant such, and that i wouldn't see it here
I have ZERO doubt that security is a priority all around. If phpbb did not care of security they would not have hired the security firm to audit the software. A move which i am sure will undoubtedly drastically improve the security of the software.
Security itself is not the sole reason for upgrades. There are also bugfixes to take into account. Though generally these should be minimized by the time a stable software is released thats not always the case as some developers rush things out the door, its been that way in the industry from the beginning and will continue to be. This is a trend i'm sure both SMF and PHPBB look to reduce from the get go.
That said, i'd like for this thread to remain respectful for all sides as i am aware of a number of phpbb community members here tonight (and we welcome you :)). I'd appreciate not nitpicking and taking shots from either side as this has been a generally very postitive topic and one of the few times when communities collide and things get discussed. Lets keep it a friendly contact, no?
Quote from: BlackMage on December 14, 2007, 12:57:34 AM
That said, i'd like for this thread to remain respectful for all sides as i am aware of a number of phpbb community members here tonight (and we welcome you :)). I'd appreciate not nitpicking and taking shots from either side as this has been a generally very postitive topic and one of the few times when communities collide and things get discussed. Lets keep it a friendly contact, no?
Fair enough. I apologize for my part in taking shots.
Also, thanks for the welcome :)
So what's your take on phpbb3/SMF?
As to which I favor, that should be obvious :P I think phpbb has come a long way. Sure its been a long time coming and theres been bumps in the road but in my view its about what you do about getting knocked down, and how hard you work at getting back up, that defines you in the long run. thats how i feel anyways.
Quote from: TestMonkey on December 13, 2007, 01:49:06 PM
Was just browsing thru the phpbb3 site as it just went gold and just by chance hit their comparison of features link: http://www.phpbb.com/about/features/compare.php
And they seem to suggest many things that SMF doesn't do which seems to be very incorrect in area's, and some things are done thru plugins in SMF.
Just found it odd that they would do something as seemingly inacurate as that.
If a feature isn't in the default installation of SMF it doesn't exist in it and the comparison is not inaccurate. Mods suck, anyway. Nothing but problems.
It looks like phpBB3 final just came out. It's feature rich and is a CSS-based layout. SMF has a lot of catching up to do.
motumbo,
I don't disagree with your statement entirely. I think feature wise SMF 1.1.4 is actually more than adequate for the average forum and of course 2.0 will, feature wise, be a dramatic change for SMF. I don't really see the difference in most of the features in SMF and phpBB3 as a problem for 95% of forum admins as, in general, as features become less and less implemented in the competition it also means they are less and less used (i.e. everyone has banning, not everyone has a warning system).
I think SMF's currently single biggest problem is that our HTML/CSS is now extremely out of date and needs to be addressed - much more than the current feature set. Fortunately this is being worked on for SMF 2.0 but I will admit not as quickly as one might like. Fortunately we've also been rationalising the templates in 2.0 to make that job easier.
All in all I'm impressed with the phpBB3 release and it's not fair to tarnish the security reputation of phpBB3 with that of phpBB2 as it's an entirely different product and team. Let's wish them all the best in the future and hope that the constant "nudging" ahead of our two products result in the constant improvement of both products and hence is good for the forum community as a whole.
Feature | phpBB3 | SMF |
Database (DBMS) Backups: | Yes | - |
Hmmm? SMF does have a database backup feature: Admin > Forum Maintenance > Backup Database section.
Congratulations to the phpBB boys (and girls?) on the release.
Congratulations on the release, the phpBB Group! I was a phpBB user back around the early 2.0 releases. I think there is not much denying 2.0 has been quite outdated in terms of features compared with what is available today, but it looks like 3.0 clearly puts your right back in the spot. It is very nice to see good relationships building between competing software teams. My take is we both want to provide something for the community that is free of charge. We both have our own ideas and loyalties, but heck if someone is in love with phpBB 3, who am I to complain? We all have different tastes and I think the competition only serves for the best as it provides a demand to continue to improve on your own software to keep users and get new ones.
It would be nice if I could build a friendship with some of the people behind phpBB and other internet scripts. I can help them, they can help me. :) We likely have similar interests in any case.
I generally do not like first party comparison lists. It is very hard to not be partially biased. You didn't do an awful job by any means with this one, but I do see certain features that do seem like it would fit in adding that phpBB 3 does not have that other forum scripts do in fact have (One that comes to mind is Quick Reply). Maybe you will work on that as you collect more and more information of the other scripts. :)
Once again, congratulations, and I wish you luck. Certainly I personally hope we don't see too many SMF users converting over to phpBB 3 (with SMF 2.0 coming around, hopefully for us this will be enough to have some people excited enough for us to not jump the gun ;))
On a more humorous note:
SMF 2.0 > phpBB 3 O:)
Congratulations to phpBB Group on phpBB3 :)
Quote from: motumbo on December 14, 2007, 02:31:24 AM
If a feature isn't in the default installation of SMF it doesn't exist in it and the comparison is not inaccurate. Mods suck, anyway. Nothing but problems.
Ridiculus. Take into consideration that anyone with half a brain can do just about anything to SMF..It's way more expandable and changeable (mostly due to the template system) and that's why i use it.
QuoteTake into consideration that anyone with half a brain can do just about anything to SMF..It's way more expandable and changeable (mostly due to the template system) and that's why i use it.
Agreed. I love the easily ability to customize SMF, and combined with backups and regular checks of the error logs, the problems are minimal compared to the reward. Plus, the SMF community has been extremely helpful in supporting the effort.
I used phpbb for years and decided to jump ship to SMF in the past week
I must admit I'm loving the ease of use with SMF in most things (tho i will also admit im being a little dim with adding groups of smileys effectively)
I never had any hackers screw things up for me with phpbb either so i cant fault their security - its just that things started to get too complex when you needed to go in and change code for certain mods and things - which for a non coder / technology illiterate like me was more than i could face.
Good luck to the phpbb3 - im sure i'll load it up and try it out but for now im sticking with SMF because it seems ive fallen in love with it <3
Quote from: Tippmaster on December 15, 2007, 11:13:18 AM
Quote from: motumbo on December 14, 2007, 02:31:24 AM
If a feature isn't in the default installation of SMF it doesn't exist in it and the comparison is not inaccurate. Mods suck, anyway. Nothing but problems.
Ridiculus. Take into consideration that anyone with half a brain can do just about anything to SMF..It's way more expandable and changeable (mostly due to the template system) and that's why i use it.
It's not ridiculous. If we took modifications into account, then we could say 'yes' to everything on that list for phpBB as well. The line was drawn, and was a logical choice; default features only.
We're not trying to discredit SMF here, and has been noted by the SMF devs themselves, SMF 2 will be a better comparison in the future. We will also work with the SMF team to update the comparison page to be accurate for SMF 2 when it is released.
Even then, it'll be default features only. :)
NeoThermic
NeoThermic, I don't think that Tippmaster's comment was a comment on the list about not including any mentioning of Mods on your list. But rather, a comment about motumbo mods being nothing but problems for Themes.
Quote from: Gazmanafc on December 15, 2007, 04:19:19 PM
NeoThermic, I don't think that Tippmaster's comment was a comment on the list about not including any mentioning of Mods on your list. But rather, a comment about motumbo mods being nothing but problems for Themes.
Yes...and take this into account:
What's the difference between a mod in phpbb and a mod in smf? alot...in phpbb you're basically going to have to be php fluent and have a few hours to spare..
Installing a mod in phpBB takes longer than creating a mod in SMF.
I don''t think that you need to be php fluent to install a mod in a phpbb forum. You need to add/edit manually some codes, that is all. More or less what you do with smf as well, when you apply a mod to a custom theme.
Anyway, I think that the best solution to apply a mod is through the plug in system, upload, activate and that is all she wrote.
Back to topic, I installed phpbb3 at my test site and I gotta say, it looked nice. It had some default features that I found very handy.
in some ways the manual approach is easier. Its easier to manage files and keep tabs on things and update things for newer versions sometimes that way.
The package manager itself isn't always a one off solution to that.
Conversely, it does make things easier to a point, especially in time requirement
I guess its a matter of personal taste.
NeoThermic: thanks for the clarification -- i was wondering what the list was based on. Thanks :)
Even from someone who is constantly hacking away at files and loves to code I still find the package manager to be an absolute blessing to have. I'm sure phpBB has that mod that does this being developed by someone or is already available and I won't criticize them for not including such a feature as they probably have their own reasons.
I do look forward to trying out phpBB 3. Back even when I was quite loyal to SMF I still loved to install all the scripts available to compare them, it was a fun little hobby. Sadly I haven't done that much lately, probably mainly due to lack of time at the moment. I hope to spend some time at some point to take a careful look at the gold product and the code behind it. I installed a later RC of it once, but didn't look at it very closely or for long.
It sure will be interesting to compare phpBB 3 to SMF 2. I still don't necessarily think phpBB 3 is better than SMF 1.1 in general terms because of the nature of how the two scripts are different. Different directions are approached in many ways and people have different tastes. Someone could say they like phpBB 2 more than SMF 2 for instance, it depends on the person. :)
Quote from: akabugeyes on December 15, 2007, 08:16:44 PMit depends on the person. :)
more specifically, it depends on their IQ.
why so harsh?
We should be respectful of others... Making a choice to use phpbb does not make anyone any more or less smart..
Sorry but i just can't relate to that crazy form of decision making skills (or lack there of) i mean really, i'm all for friendly competition, but making a chart trying to push people into something is just asking for a harsh truth to be unveiled.
Yet when at least TWO of the phpBB staff are here and willing to correct any of the inaccuracies that have been aforementioned, that says absolutely nothing?
I'm sorry Tippmaster i don't think this is the time or the place for the the SMF/phpBB argument to be had. The comparison chart is a good marketing strategy overall if it is accurate. See above statement again.
If its accurate, then theres no reason to have any problem with it IMO. Is it something we'd do? most likely not, but even still, its none of our concern.
Please keep this topic friendly, Thanks.
I took a look at the phpbb site, which I am assuming runs 3, and it just isn't as attractive as SMF. I really just don't like the look of it, but perhaps another theme would be nicer...
Many like it a few do not. As for me I think it looks great.
Quote from: Tippmaster on December 15, 2007, 08:44:57 PM
Sorry but i just can't relate to that crazy form of decision making skills (or lack there of) i mean really, i'm all for friendly competition, but making a chart trying to push people into something is just asking for a harsh truth to be unveiled.
Tipp like BlackMage said this is not the place to come with the phpBB vs SMF stuff. I suggest that you read carefully before making such comments. The guys from phpBB came over here to get the list more accurate. You can't blame them for missing some features. Us here at SMF use it everyday and know then ins and outs of SMF. It's the same as if we were doing a comparison of SMF, phpBB and the others. We would be missing things since we don't know everything about other softwares.
We don't need such harsh comments when we are having a civilized conversation here like adults.
QuoteMany like it a few do not. As for me I think it looks great.
Sure, to each his own. I guess its not too bad, but its not using the width available on my monitor. I don't like that. I hate their banner, of course that would be changed, but still- its really ugly IMHO. I also don't like the pink forum rules bar at all. I don't like the member info in posts on the right compared to the left in SMF. Etc
Just my personal taste, I don't like the look and feel of phpbb, so I guess I just wanted to point out that while features are important to me and I love SMF's features and easier mod capability in most cases, there are other strengths as well to SMF.
Cheers
Quote from: Daniel15 on December 14, 2007, 12:46:44 AM
To the phpBB team: Nice work! phpBB 3 is definitely a significant improvement over phpBB 2. To be honest, I like phpBB3 more than vBulletin :)
I think the phpBB3 team does deserve congratulations for what they've accomplished. Especially when compared to phpBB2 which had deficiencies in every possible area.
Quote from: BlackMage on December 14, 2007, 12:57:34 AM
Thats one thing that gets me about things these days... fanboyism -- not that i am accusing anyone of this i certainly am not... Fanboyism tends to run very rampant sometimes and causes huge rifts between generally complacent groups of people. With that comes the opinions shoved down people's throats...
Somebody called me a phpBB fanboy in another thread. I don't recall who...
Anyway, there is no shortage of "fanboyism" here on Simplemachines. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in something you've worked on or a forum system you really like. There is nothing wrong with admitting the competition has done something good or, at the very least, better than they've done in the past.
Quote from: Grudge on December 14, 2007, 03:35:58 AM
motumbo,
I don't disagree with your statement entirely. I think feature wise SMF 1.1.4 is actually more than adequate for the average forum and of course 2.0 will, feature wise, be a dramatic change for SMF.
I agree. However, if your goal is to appeal to a broad audience, more features will help you do that. Since SMF is mostly a voluntary project, I can only assume that the developers want to put out a good product and have it widely used. If I was a songwriter, I would be happier if I sold 5 million albums than if I sold 50,000.
I tried using a mod once and it was not a pleasant experience. The people with the most knowledge of SMF are probably the developers and not the mod writers. Plus, mod writers don't know necessarily what is coming in the future and how it will affect their mods. That's why I don't like mods.
Quote from: Grudge on December 14, 2007, 03:35:58 AM
I think SMF's currently single biggest problem is that our HTML/CSS is now extremely out of date and needs to be addressed - much more than the current feature set. Fortunately this is being worked on for SMF 2.0 but I will admit not as quickly as one might like. Fortunately we've also been rationalising the templates in 2.0 to make that job easier.
I agree with this most of all. Personally, features like Karma, Youtube video embedding, and other features are meaningless to me. I wouldn't be upset if they are there because you never know when you will use something. My biggest issue with SMF is the tabled layout.
Quote from: Grudge on December 14, 2007, 03:35:58 AM
All in all I'm impressed with the phpBB3 release and it's not fair to tarnish the security reputation of phpBB3 with that of phpBB2 as it's an entirely different product and team. Let's wish them all the best in the future and hope that the constant "nudging" ahead of our two products result in the constant improvement of both products and hence is good for the forum community as a whole.
Absolutely. Competition drives innovation (just ask Microsoft and Firefox). Good competition can end up making all competitors better than they would otherwise be.
Quote from: akabugeyes on December 14, 2007, 09:44:26 PM
Once again, congratulations, and I wish you luck. Certainly I personally hope we don't see too many SMF users converting over to phpBB 3 (with SMF 2.0 coming around, hopefully for us this will be enough to have some people excited enough for us to not jump the gun ;))
Before stopping at the simplemachines site I did a search for SMF over on the phpBB site and did notice there were a few people converting. I expect that this trend will continue for a while. But, maybe if there was less secrecy about what is coming in SMF2 people might be willing to wait before jumping ship.
Quote from: Tippmaster on December 15, 2007, 11:13:18 AM
Quote from: motumbo on December 14, 2007, 02:31:24 AM
If a feature isn't in the default installation of SMF it doesn't exist in it and the comparison is not inaccurate. Mods suck, anyway. Nothing but problems.
Ridiculus. Take into consideration that anyone with half a brain can do just about anything to SMF..It's way more expandable and changeable (mostly due to the template system) and that's why i use it.
Sure. Being able to do something and being able to do it easily are two different things. I made my SMF theme look pretty much the way I wanted it to look and made several other changes. But due to the tabled layout and duplicate code in multiple places, it was a lot of work--a lot more than it should have been.
No joke: I've found essentially duplicate code in two different places in SMF. That's just not good coding practice.
Quote from: weightman on December 16, 2007, 01:30:45 AM
I don't like the member info in posts on the right compared to the left in SMF. Etc
My understanding is that a simple change to the CSS to float it left will change it to be on the left. (I don't like it on the right, either.) That's the advantage of a CSS-based layout versus a tabled layout.
motumbo, like has been said, we don't disagree with what you are pointing out, just like in the other thread, how you worded the post -- it came out very rough i guess would be the way to put it. Sometimes putting your point across works better if its worded in a way thats not going to rub people wrong -- i admit that i was rubbed wrong by your post in the now locked why or why not topic. Just be respectful and you'll find that the team DOES listen to people. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here.
I think what we're seeing is a difference in what people see as the direction the software is going. I still personally feel that a small, efficient, secure, and functional base is what SMF is meant to be. I personally want to see the features that will used most that fit the idealism of what a forum software does without being considered too over the top. To be perfectly honest the karma and calendar systems that are default do not fit that in my view. But at this point it is sort of useless to remove code that is already in place :P
I don't doubt fanboyism runs rampant here, i still don't like it :P I use SMF becuase its the best solution for my needs AND i have the edge of having a generally greater knowledge of things to do with it. Does that make phpbb useless? no. Does it make it useless to my needs? yes. Does that make phpbb suck? not a bit.
I had something else to say but it is too late for me to remember *yawns*
QuoteMy understanding is that a simple change to the CSS to float it left will change it to be on the left. (I don't like it on the right, either.) That's the advantage of a CSS-based layout versus a tabled layout.
That does indeed sound like a significant capability. It will be nice when SMF does their code revisions to accomplish this and produce superior html, etc that has been discussed.
Competition is good, as is choice.
I disagree on the common statement made about exploits in phpBB. Back when I used to help out with a few phpBB boards most of them were exploited because they did not have the current release of phpBB and were running old versions.
That can happen when you are running any script including SMF. A comparison list will always have its advantages and disadvantages but the fact that members of the phpBB team came here and expressed interest in correcting mistakes says a lot.
Let's continue to keep it respectful and congratulations on your release.
:)
I see no harm whatsoever in phpBB using a comparison chart to promote their software - it's a very common and widely used marketing tool. Even though they've tried to balance it a bit by adding a few feature not found in phpBB3, it will always be very apparent that it's based on phpBB3's feature set, and depending on what type of users they want to attract, that's their right/problem...
Quote from: NeoThermic link=topic=210868.msg1342617#msg1342617
Sure. It was done byurl=http://www.sektioneins.de/content/en.4004.24.28502.content2.html]SektionEins[/url] (to be pedantic, by Stefan Esser himself). It was done on the 15.10.07, with a copy of RC5, which resulted in the RC6/7 release.
If the name Stefan Esser didn't ring any bells, he's the guy who used to run the security for PHP itself. He then started up the
hardened-php project. I'm of the opinion that you couldn't choose anyone better for the task.
NeoThermic
Yes you can indeed be very proud of it! He also the guy with this blog:
http://blog.php-security.org/ (http://blog.php-security.org/)
I also like it to see how both "competitors" discussing here together.... and PHPBB3 looks good IMHO, especially woth the templates who has the user-information above the post...
Nevertheless i stick with SMF, as i never see such a great forums-script so secure and without any high server-usage.
Regards, Christian