Simple Machines Community Forum

Simple Machines => News and Updates => Topic started by: Kindred on January 28, 2010, 01:46:02 PM

Title: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on January 28, 2010, 01:46:02 PM
We are pleased to announce that negotiations have opened in an attempt to reach a mutually satisfactory solution to the recent disputes between the current SMF team management and the SMF Friends group.

The discussion will be chaired by Kindred (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=1261) (Operations Manager for the SMF team).
He was selected because he is recognized as fair and objective by both parties to the negotiations.

The negotiators for the SMF team are:

Compuart (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=27) (Lead Developer)

SleePy (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=29084) (Site Manager)

The negotiators for the SMF Friends are:

Douglas (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=6)

Eren Yasarkurt (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=6563)


Please note that while we are cautiously optimistic that such a solution is possible it will not happen overnight. Regular updates will be made public as discussions proceed, but we do ask that the negotiators are left to do their jobs without undue public pressure.

All of them also have other things to take care of in their work lives and private lives so a reasonable amount of time must be allowed for them to do this job as well.

Thank you in advance for your understanding.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Deaks on January 28, 2010, 01:48:10 PM
cant see much coming of it but good luck to all
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Looking on January 28, 2010, 01:51:14 PM
What did I miss? What are the disputes over if I may ask?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Owdy on January 28, 2010, 01:55:05 PM
You have my support, good luck! I really hope this works out :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on January 28, 2010, 01:58:25 PM
/me crosses his fingers.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on January 28, 2010, 01:59:10 PM
Quote from: Looking on January 28, 2010, 01:51:14 PM
What did I miss? What are the disputes over if I may ask?


It's a very long story, Looking.  ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Looking on January 28, 2010, 02:09:39 PM
Someone is updating me by PM, I hope it all works out.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on January 28, 2010, 02:13:56 PM
Well, it could well mean "Bye-bye!" to SMF, if it doesn't. :(
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: babjusi on January 28, 2010, 02:17:56 PM
Quote from: Owdy on January 28, 2010, 01:55:05 PM
You have my support, good luck! I really hope this works out :)

I wish the same thing :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ~DS~ on January 28, 2010, 02:19:23 PM
Good luck, hope this put an end to our misfortunate. Let's bring our home back to what it once was.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on January 28, 2010, 02:28:30 PM
 
Quote from: Kat on January 28, 2010, 02:13:56 PM
Well, it could well mean "Bye-bye!" to SMF, if it doesn't. :(

Kat,

Let's not be so pessimistic, or start spreading rumors.
A lot of things COULD mean bye bye...  after all, the US could be hit with a 15.5 earthquake and we all fall into the ocean...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on January 28, 2010, 02:32:26 PM
Quote from: Kindred on January 28, 2010, 02:28:30 PMthe US could be hit with a 15.5 earthquake and we all fall into the ocean...


That's it. Get our hopes up. ;)


This meeting thingy IS that important, though.


At least, it seems that way, to me.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: vbgamer45 on January 28, 2010, 02:34:08 PM
I am here as long as SMF remains and will help the community though mods and support when I can.

This is best forum software I have ever used and will continue to use for everything I do.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Mick. on January 28, 2010, 03:22:18 PM
Good luck, both parties.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on January 28, 2010, 03:31:25 PM
Quote from: vbgamer45 on January 28, 2010, 02:34:08 PM
I am here as long as SMF remains and will help the community though mods and support when I can.

This is best forum software I have ever used and will continue to use for everything I do.

My thoughts and action aswell.
Good luck peeps with your 'negotiations', I'm happy to see even this step has been taken :)
As long as the community stands strong, I'm sure SMF will not 'die'. I don't even understand where that idea comes from  ???
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Jade Elizabeth on January 28, 2010, 03:38:54 PM
Quote from: Kindred on January 28, 2010, 02:28:30 PM
the US could be hit with a 15.5 earthquake and we all fall into the ocean...

My dad was a military lifeguard. He taught me to swim, so I'm good.

However, I'm not too good on being shaken.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nolt on January 28, 2010, 03:51:19 PM
Quote from: Kindred on January 28, 2010, 02:28:30 PM
after all, the US could be hit with a 15.5 earthquake and we all fall into the ocean...

Dont act like US is a whole world :) maybe uS can fall into ocean after earthquake but rest of the world will not, especially EU ;)   (no earthquakes xD)

@topic
good luck, dont screw anything whole world count on SMF ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: bugstomper on January 28, 2010, 03:56:08 PM
Quote from: Looking on January 28, 2010, 01:51:14 PM
What did I miss? What are the disputes over if I may ask?

I'm ignorant other than what I found out by Googling just now and I won't link to anything as I only found things that might be considered as presenting just one side or the other, but I think I can phrase it in a way that is not offensive to anyone:

I have seen something similar happen in some other open source projects where it finds itself in a situation where some one or all of the copyrights to the code, the servers, and the trademarks are owned by one person or one company, and the development work is done by volunteers who don't have that ownership. Unless the project is specifically set up to keep problems from happening (e.g., the owning organization is set up as a non-profit with a charter that requires them to provide a community development process, or it is jointly owned or has some other contractual set up that tends to prevent disputes) then you can imagine that if there is any dispute between the two sides it can end up difficult and messy to resolve. What happens after that depends on the people involved and perhaps depends on whether the license on the open source software is one that makes a fork possible or impossible. Sometimes they resolve their issues. Sometimes the project forks and sometimes the original or the fork or both or neither end up successful. Sometimes it just all falls apart.

I think what I just said is specific enough to give an idea of what this is about without in any way being biased to one side or the other. Mediated negotiations are good. I hope this works out to a positive resolution that allows this great software to keep going as an active project.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: live627 on January 28, 2010, 04:11:37 PM
Hopefully they can smoke the peace pipe.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nick Whetstone on January 28, 2010, 04:14:43 PM
Quote from: live627 on January 28, 2010, 04:11:37 PM
Hopefully they can smoke the peace pipe.
If I'm not mistaken, smoking a pipe may have been what started this mess in the first place. ::)
Good luck, everyone.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on January 28, 2010, 04:17:29 PM
Quote from: Owdy on January 28, 2010, 01:55:05 PM
You have my support, good luck! I really hope this works out :)
And my AXE! - Oh, wait...

Just +1
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: catfished on January 28, 2010, 04:27:42 PM
Here's hoping you guys and gals can work everything out.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: live627 on January 28, 2010, 04:30:37 PM
Quote from: LexArma on January 28, 2010, 04:17:29 PM
And my AXE!

The Lord of the Rings?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on January 28, 2010, 04:31:28 PM
Quote from: live627 on January 28, 2010, 04:30:37 PM
Quote from: LexArma on January 28, 2010, 04:17:29 PM
And my AXE!

The Lord of the Rings?

Yeah :P
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on January 28, 2010, 04:55:10 PM
Quote from: Kindred on January 28, 2010, 02:28:30 PM
A lot of things COULD mean bye bye...  after all, the US could be hit with a 15.5 earthquake and we all fall into the ocean...
Lol, most of the devs are in Europe anyway, so even that wouldn't stop the machine™ ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 28, 2010, 04:56:33 PM
I'm sure that they will come up with a solution. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nick Whetstone on January 28, 2010, 05:02:27 PM
Though, are the servers not located in Arizona? heh.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 28, 2010, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: Ha² on January 28, 2010, 05:02:27 PM
Though, are the servers not located in Arizona? heh.
Just because the servers are located in Arizona doesn't mean some of or all of the devs can't be located in Europe.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nick Whetstone on January 28, 2010, 05:14:12 PM
Quote from: Kill Em All on January 28, 2010, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: Ha² on January 28, 2010, 05:02:27 PM
Though, are the servers not located in Arizona? heh.
Just because the servers are located in Arizona doesn't mean some of or all of the devs can't be located in Europe.
Yes, but I was saying that the actual SM.org site itself would be lost if a 15.5 magnitude quake hit the States.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 28, 2010, 05:25:23 PM
Ah, they wouldn't be lost, you see, the SMF servers are special, they have wings so they can fly in the event of an earth quake.

/me thinks they are liquid cooled with Red Bull.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on January 28, 2010, 05:26:03 PM
 ???
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nibogo on January 28, 2010, 05:27:39 PM
Good luck, Finally there is a possible solution for this problem :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: 青山 素子 on January 28, 2010, 05:42:55 PM
Good luck to everyone involved.


Quote from: Kill Em All on January 28, 2010, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: Ha² on January 28, 2010, 05:02:27 PM
Though, are the servers not located in Arizona? heh.
Just because the servers are located in Arizona doesn't mean some of or all of the devs can't be located in Europe.

The servers are located in downtown Atlanta.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on January 28, 2010, 06:31:45 PM
Quote from: Jade Elizabeth on January 28, 2010, 03:38:54 PM

However, I'm not too good on being shaken.


Damn. There go a few fantasies...  :-\
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Amanda. on January 28, 2010, 06:40:07 PM
fingers crossed (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lj0cVJ5xcfQ/SY9KgeeeR1I/AAAAAAAABDk/e5tnqniugXY/s400/saupload_alice_in_wonderland.jpg)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: C4G-TK on January 28, 2010, 06:47:10 PM
My only hope is that the sides think not only of "their sides", but the people that use the product as well.  Every side exists because of the other.  In other words, compromise is key or else each side cuts off their nose to spite their face.

Without the program there is no need for a USER... Without the USER there is no need for a program.  You can replace the bold word with any particular group involved in SMF like Customizer, Charter Member, Developer, etc etc etc.  Also, it just goes to show you how intertwined all these groups are.

We all rely on each other and each person needs to ask a simple question;  Why are you here?  Are you here because you want to help others or want to assist in creating something great?  Or, are you here because of a need to be in control or feel some grandeur?

Personally, I'm here because I wanted to create a site where my friends could come together and speak freely.  In finding SMF over a year ago, I found a place and program where I saw people from all ways of life coming together for a common goal; communication.  This is what SMF and forums are about.  I hope that the people listed in the original post remember this.

I think that most of the hostilities, rumors, and misconceptions could have been avoided if things were handled differently, but that's the benefit of hindsight.  In the future, I hope that those who are in charge are more open, forthcoming, and less cryptic about what is happening behind the scenes.  Lack of communication is what breeds the negativity.  To me it has been a lack of explanation of what is really going on which gets the emotions involved.

At this point, the damage is done.  Whether it really is about taxes, structure or something else, there is now fallout.  It is up to those who are in charge to state things CLEARLY from now on and not VAGUELY like in another thread.  VAGUENESS creates doubt and is the fault of those who don't explain themselves CLEARLY.  It isn't the fault of the membership who may interpret it wrong.

Hopefully everyone involved will not let their Pride keep them from doing what is correct for the whole of the program.  Sorry, it just pisses me off that troubles happen here when there is so much potential and good.  SMF has done so much for so many people.  I hate to think that a few people on whatever side could choke things. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on January 28, 2010, 07:01:09 PM
Well you can be sure of one thing. If the negotiations break down both teams will blame the other. :D
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Douglas on January 28, 2010, 07:06:09 PM
Quote from: C4G-TKMy only hope is that the sides think not only of "their sides", but the people that use the product as well.  Every side exists because of the other.  In other words, compromise is key or else each side cuts off their nose to spite their face.
I wanted to address this one point, because this is something that is very near and dear to me.  If you've seen some of my posts in Chit Chat and my upcoming blog post on dlhazard.com, you will see that I'm going into this, not only representing the SMF Friends, but with the mindset of representing the entire community, as a whole.

One thing I want to make abundantly clear about the five people involved in these discussions:  We all have a love for this project, far greater than many of the community will understand.

Ultimately, we want to find a common ground that protects the interest of the community and the integrity of the project, while still allowing it to move forward with the rest of the restructuring we all want.

Rest assured that the community will be very well represented with the five figureheads at this proverbial table.  If we didn't have a love for this project, those of us that are "on the outside looking in" wouldn't be fighting as hard as we are for this project.

Off to make my blog post now.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Garou on January 28, 2010, 07:28:29 PM
Got my fingers crossed hopefully SMF will come through this much stronger then it has been in years.

Good luck all five of you. We all as a community are counting on you.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Vaѕh on January 28, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
Good luck.

On the subject of the 15.5 earthquake... Since that is a pretty big number (not picking you Kindred), impacts would definitely be felt in the EU/UK :p even if it did only hit the US. I suspect Tsunami's and other things would be easily triggered by it.. so HA.

Anyway, again good luck. It's good to see (?) some progress perhaps being made.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: tyty1234 on January 28, 2010, 10:49:57 PM
Hopefully the disputes get resolved. Good luck to all. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nick Whetstone on January 28, 2010, 10:54:40 PM
Quote from: Vaѕh on January 28, 2010, 10:45:21 PM
Good luck.

On the subject of the 15.5 earthquake... Since that is a pretty big number (not picking you Kindred), impacts would definitely be felt in the EU/UK :p even if it did only hit the US. I suspect Tsunami's and other things would be easily triggered by it.. so HA.

Anyway, again good luck. It's good to see (?) some progress perhaps being made.
Pwned Europe, pwned. :D

/me runs away for spamming this topic
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Cassiel on January 28, 2010, 11:36:48 PM
Very glad to see steps being taken to get everything under control, and for things to be talked out calmly and peacefully. Seeing steps like this makes me happy, and safe in knowing that SMF is going to recover from this minor speed bump. :)

Though maybe I shouldn't speak so soon, but I trust the named people and I know their passion for the project will help see things through. After all, they all share a common interest. ;)

Though, if I may ask, how did these people (mainly from the SMF Friend's side) get chosen?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on January 29, 2010, 12:51:33 AM
The reps on both sides were chosen by a vote. The team voted theirs, and friends and ex team members together theirs. :) Fair and open.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: MarcusJ on January 29, 2010, 01:29:13 AM
I always loved SMF for the professional manner in which it was handled.  I left for a while because I was trying to appease Joomla, but decided to drop those projects and come back.

I really hope differences can be set aside.  Good luck to you all.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: sAce on January 29, 2010, 02:00:19 AM
good luck from me to,
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Pentaxian on January 29, 2010, 07:04:52 AM
This development gives hope. I wish everybody involved wisdom, common sense  and perseverance. The luck will be ours.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on January 29, 2010, 07:28:25 AM
(Post deleted until more information is available to me.)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on January 29, 2010, 07:34:32 AM
It is by my understanding a server issue...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antes on January 29, 2010, 12:23:17 PM
I'm wishing luck too :)

About EQ , i think we will not suffer from a Tsunami xP

* Antes tries to bring back Ha² for more spam
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Jade Elizabeth on January 29, 2010, 12:37:51 PM
I'm glad to see a little more transparency towards the public, if I'm honest. It's about time that happened.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: trebul on January 29, 2010, 02:48:14 PM
Thank you for keeping the community updated on the situation. I hope you can reach an agreement that makes both parties happy, many of us are patiently waiting to hear the results.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Filipina on January 29, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
I spend a great deal of time in "real life" as a negotiator. It is my job actually and I love it. Whenever two parties sit down in a room together face to face the results are usually positive. If they share at least some common goals and interests much can be accomplished. It is not uncommon to see integrity and decency replace contempt and discourtesy in the proper setting.

Having said that, I use to be a miserable failure settling disputes on my forum. The online world seems to push even decent folks into becoming very discourteous in a matter of seconds. We hide behind our key boards and feel a certain disconnect when it comes to others. I don't think it is intentional, but just the nature of online communications. At least that is what I experienced with my community forum.

I was able to make a change on my site which seemed to help. I actually picked up the telephone, got on Skype, used video chat, and when geography permitted, met some of my members in person. What a world of difference it made for our community. Did it solve all the problems? No. But for those that I knew had some desire to "compromise" it did make a huge difference.

I love this site. I love how complete strangers are willing to help you just because they want to. SMF is a community like no other. Of course there will be ups and downs, but as long as the core people (The SMF Team and Friends) want the community to succeed it will. I just hope that all (or most) of the people involved never lose track of what an awesome place you have created.

Thanks for all your years of great service and commitment to making SMF the best community on the Internet. I pray that both sides can find a way to work together for all of us!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Burridge on January 29, 2010, 04:06:38 PM
I'm glad that what ever is going on is being handled maturely. Good luck with the disputes.

Quote from: Filipina on January 29, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
Thanks for all your years of great service and commitment to making SMF the best community on the Internet. I pray that both sides can find a way to work together for all of us!
Amen! There will always be disputes and disagreements on the internet, just as there is in real life. It happens, nothing we can do about it, although things are always better, when dealt with maturely.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kenny01 on January 29, 2010, 04:10:58 PM
This shouldn't happen now that smf ranking is sky rocking...... pls come to a positive conclusion for all.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on January 29, 2010, 04:12:42 PM
Well put, Filipina. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 29, 2010, 05:23:07 PM
Quote from: Kat on January 29, 2010, 04:12:42 PM
Well put, Filipina. :)
x2. Very nice.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on January 29, 2010, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: Jade Elizabeth on January 29, 2010, 12:37:51 PM
I'm glad to see a little more transparency towards the public, if I'm honest. It's about time that happened.
I'm reading this with Chrome, and your post breaks the page! Nothing shows up after it...

<blockquote>[12:13am] <%Jade> link me<br />[12:14am] <+orstio> <a href="Jade">link</a></blockquote>
It breaks at the "< %". Which is, I believe, starter code for VBScript. I smell a SMF bug!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: live627 on January 29, 2010, 07:02:33 PM
Works fine in Firefox 3.6 :S

Yes, it's a bug with webkit renders :P
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on January 29, 2010, 07:12:25 PM
It works with Opera 10.50 too, that's why I specified Chrome ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: catfished on January 29, 2010, 08:03:47 PM
It did the same to me using Chrome but fine on FF.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: gisfreak on January 29, 2010, 09:26:46 PM
 :'( :'( :'(


i hope for the good result.

regards, GISfreak
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on January 30, 2010, 12:42:07 AM
Quote from: Nao on January 29, 2010, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: Jade Elizabeth on January 29, 2010, 12:37:51 PM
I'm glad to see a little more transparency towards the public, if I'm honest. It's about time that happened.
I'm reading this with Chrome, and your post breaks the page! Nothing shows up after it...

<blockquote>[12:13am] <%Jade> link me<br />[12:14am] <+orstio> <a href="Jade">link</a></blockquote>
It breaks at the "< %". Which is, I believe, starter code for VBScript. I smell a SMF bug!

I commented on this in Site Comments, actually.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kenny01 on January 30, 2010, 02:11:59 AM
Quote from: Jade Elizabeth on January 29, 2010, 12:37:51 PM
I'm glad to see a little more transparency towards the public, if I'm honest. It's about time that happened.
also the signature contents are missing in Chrome.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Stallyon on January 30, 2010, 03:31:12 AM
Long (but quiet) supporter of SMF wishing good luck with the peace keeping ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: David111567 on January 30, 2010, 03:48:37 AM
I have deep respect for SMF and swear it's the best out there. Nothing will shake me from that opinion.  But, as a grown adult who has had experience with PR and management...I have to say that announcing your issues, even if it's in a positive way, saying, for example "we're trying to work out our differences with so-and-so"...is never wise. It makes the company look immature and unstable...it makes people who would otherwise NOT be shaken by these problems....think twice about the product or services offered...it detracts, distracts and takes away the focus FROM the product or service....and it's airing dirty laundry in public. 

All of a sudden, we're starting to see all these posts about problems and restructuring and issues...etc.  How does that reflect, in the long term, on a company or their PERCEIVED stability?  I believe that internal issues should be resolved maturely, quietly and internally; never in front of a live audience goading people on from both sides. That's just, in my opinion only,  not the mature, adult or smart way to deal with things. I sincerely applaud the efforts for resolutions to problems...but really....you all are painting yourselves in a poor light by announcing all this stuff to the world. Making everyone aware that the ship has holes, is never a wise thing for the captain to do.  If you ask me (and I am aware nobody has) I would be forced to say "just go about making SMF the best it can be and keep all the internal whining and bickering where it should be kept...internal.   There's no need for press releases and big ol' front page announcements about who's trying to kiss and make up after the fight in the school yard.  That stuff is for high school students.  Image is everything.  Newbies looking for a good, solid product like SMF will come here and read about all this internal crap, and you could lose more than you gain by this new "open-ness" on your front page.

But, you know what they say about opinions. Mine's worth about 2 cents...and either way, SMF will be just fine and dandy. I'll never stop using it....or referring others to it.  The crew is a good one.  I have no beef with anyone. I just wish you all would stop having issues with each other....at least, not in front of the children. We don't like it when mommy and daddy fight.  You know? Just wanted to express my views with respect.

Peace,

David
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on January 30, 2010, 03:59:06 AM
A well constructed post there David, expressing the thoughts of many. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on January 30, 2010, 04:03:33 AM
Interesting point there, David.

One thing I will say: the issues were not being acknowledged properly by both sides, such that we saw all kinds of less diplomatic solutions going on, and a lot more mud-slinging. This, really, is actually more mature than what was going on before.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kenny01 on January 30, 2010, 04:35:34 AM
Thanks for the great post David111567.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Powerbob on January 30, 2010, 04:55:13 AM
I also think it's time to get back to work here! The whole community is waiting for RC3 and not the bickering!
I say remove the threads and get the bugs out of 2.0

Cheers
Bob
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on January 30, 2010, 08:27:09 AM
David, your post has good points, but would like to put light onto several points:
1. The SMF team, AFAIK, is overall very young (in their 20's). You can't expect full maturity on their side. Heck, I'm 34 and I totally say I'm immature myself :P
2. The SMF software is still free and will stay free... It doesn't have to behave by "company standards". It tries to, but it doesn't have to.
3. If you're looking for similar "serious" and mature forum software companies that make millions selling their products, why not try vBulletin?
Oh, wait...
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?337121-Former-vBulletin-lead-developer-Kier-Darby-to-develop-new-forum-software&p=1905469&viewfull=1#post1905469
Forgot I said anything about respectable companies ;)

Apart from that, good points you made.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: rjckE on January 30, 2010, 08:46:55 AM
Quote from: vbgamer45 on January 28, 2010, 02:34:08 PM
This is best forum software I have ever used and will continue to use for everything I do.

+1 :D
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Alpay on January 30, 2010, 09:01:15 AM
Good news SMF :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: David111567 on January 30, 2010, 01:13:36 PM
Quote from: Nao on January 30, 2010, 08:27:09 AM
David, your post has good points, but would like to put light onto several points:
1. The SMF team, AFAIK, is overall very young (in their 20's). You can't expect full maturity on their side. Heck, I'm 34 and I totally say I'm immature myself :P

Well..at 42...I still have my days of romping around like an idiot too...so..yes,  you make a very good point, there.

Quote
2. The SMF software is still free and will stay free... It doesn't have to behave by "company standards". It tries to, but it doesn't have to.

yes, indeed, but if you ruin the image of that product and people become afraid to be involved with it...free or not...it does no good if no one wants it...or if you cut your own throats while you're busy  mud-slinging.  Free or paid become a moot point. It's not about "company standards".  It's about "standards".  SMF is better than this. 

Quote3. If you're looking for similar "serious" and mature forum software companies that make millions selling their products, why not try vBulletin?
Oh, wait...
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?337121-Former-vBulletin-lead-developer-Kier-Darby-to-develop-new-forum-software&p=1905469&viewfull=1#post1905469
Forgot I said anything about respectable companies ;)

I think you must have forgotten the part where I said I truly believe SMF is the best and that I would never stop using it.  I already tossed "The Big V" out in favor of SMF.  I never said I was looking for more mature software. As if the one you mentioned even came close. I don't believe it does.   But again...everyone has an opinion, it's cool that we have the ability to express them....mine is valued about as much as the next guy's at the end of the day.  As long as there's respect that goes along with those opinions, there's endless possibilities, as well.

QuoteApart from that, good points you made.

Thanks.  Have a good one, everyone.

David
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Deaks on January 30, 2010, 02:39:51 PM
David the problem is that after what the administration done it became very public, smf friends got banned, normal users got banned, people posted things with alot of people viewing and the team removed the post or edited it so the truth was hidden, blog posts were made, a public forum was created where people learnt more, over 30% of the team stood down (including leads and a SMF LLC partner), the issue was public, so its only mature to show that the team and those that were effected are in negotiations to try and sort things, to show a sign of faith between the two for the betterment of SMF, granted I see talks as pointless but I am interested to see what will be said and in an attempt to get things sorted. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ardd on January 30, 2010, 03:25:51 PM
Quote from: David111567 on January 30, 2010, 01:13:36 PM
Quote from: Nao on January 30, 2010, 08:27:09 AM
2. The SMF software is still free and will stay free... It doesn't have to behave by "company standards". It tries to, but it doesn't have to.

yes, indeed, but if you ruin the image of that product and people become afraid to be involved with it...free or not...it does no good if no one wants it...or if you cut your own throats while you're busy  mud-slinging.  Free or paid become a moot point. It's not about "company standards".  It's about "standards".  SMF is better than this. 

Secrecy is not a good selling point in a community based project.

Many have contributed as they can to SMF as team members, volunteers and individual users who have made small contributions in the manner of fixes, testing and reporting. Free or paid is a very relevant point when your project is not only for the public but of the public as well.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Johnny54 on January 30, 2010, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: Runic on January 30, 2010, 02:39:51 PMgranted I see talks as pointless
Talks, like real discussions, are never pointless. Thru dat maybe they won't solve problems, or even a specific problem right away, but they offer a opening to a solution.
Bud I understand your scepticisem.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: David111567 on January 30, 2010, 05:22:41 PM
QuoteSecrecy is not a good selling point in a community based project.

Public in-fighting is not a good selling point in a community based project.

Imagine going to a store or a restaurant with the intention of getting something....and watching one employee announcing a problem...followed by a debate among the rest of the employees, followed by a referee appointed to sort it out, followed by other announcements regarding problems...from the OTHER employees....etc etc....all in front of the customers. Now, honestly, would you feel comfortable in that environment?  Would you believe in their product? Would you believe in their ability to grind out upgrades and cooperatively work together to provide the public with a pleasant support atmosphere? If the cooks are fighting with the boss...publicly....I sure don't wanna sit down at their table and eat their food.  The atmosphere is part of the package. It truly matters how you present yourself. You are your product. You're the face of the whole operation. Doesn't matter if it's Microsoft, McDonalds, or Joe Nobody's Nifty Soup Factory. There's no place for public hostility or grumbling within any organization.

QuoteMany have contributed as they can to SMF as team members, volunteers and individual users who have made small contributions in the manner of fixes, testing and reporting. Free or paid is a very relevant point when your project is not only for the public but of the public as well.

That's exactly my point. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: forsakenlad on January 30, 2010, 05:54:59 PM
I too am very optimistic about the possible outcome of the discussion that is in place. I'd also like to thank Kindred for promising updates to the community as progress is made, afterall SMF's existence primarily depends on the support of the community not the agreement of the two parties ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: GravuTrad on January 30, 2010, 11:11:19 PM
I would say that not all the people who are in the friends group was concerned by this dispute...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 30, 2010, 11:18:41 PM
I was sort of shocked when I read this to be honest, I know with my former clan, I always told them to never bring the public into our problems.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ardd on January 31, 2010, 02:07:23 AM
Quote from: David111567 on January 30, 2010, 05:22:41 PM
QuoteSecrecy is not a good selling point in a community based project.

Public in-fighting is not a good selling point in a community based project.

Imagine going to a store or a restaurant with the intention of getting something....and watching one employee announcing a problem...followed by a debate among the rest of the employees, followed by a referee appointed to sort it out, followed by other announcements regarding problems...from the OTHER employees....etc etc....all in front of the customers. Now, honestly, would you feel comfortable in that environment?  Would you believe in their product? Would you believe in their ability to grind out upgrades and cooperatively work together to provide the public with a pleasant support atmosphere? If the cooks are fighting with the boss...publicly....I sure don't wanna sit down at their table and eat their food.  The atmosphere is part of the package. It truly matters how you present yourself. You are your product. You're the face of the whole operation. Doesn't matter if it's Microsoft, McDonalds, or Joe Nobody's Nifty Soup Factory. There's no place for public hostility or grumbling within any organization.

That's exactly my point.   


Your analogy seems rather private sector centric, none of the examples involved a community based project only commercial ventures. McDonald's as do most large corporations consists of a rigid hierarchy which has no room nor any desire for any type of worker based "democracy" let alone community involvement. I'm not sure Microsoft is the best of examples either as I just can't see SMF as being the Microsoft of forum software or any stepping up to the plate to do volunteer work for Bill Gates.

Let's try a closer analogy, suppose you where doing fund raising for the local food bank and asked how the funds where to be used and you were told that it must remain a secret to avoid public embarrassment. Another scenario might be that you were baking cookies for the PTA and asking if your Gramndmothers recipie  for brownies would remain yours or be copyrighted by the PTA then told that the possibility of the PTA becoming a private concern was a secret and the recipes status would be made known to you as events transpired. 

Would you even donate to a concern who's books and policy's where kept from public view?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kenny01 on January 31, 2010, 04:05:31 AM
Another good one from  ardd.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on January 31, 2010, 01:06:38 PM
Short version, from my perspective. :)

Management question: How can we get more people involved in the SMF team?

Management answer: By telling them to eff off if they don't like the way we do things.

Now I don't know about you, but personally I find this attitude rather counterproductive.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: C4G-TK on January 31, 2010, 01:17:27 PM
Quote from: Antechinus on January 31, 2010, 01:06:38 PM
Short version, from my perspective. :)

Management question: How can we get more people involved in the SMF team?

Management answer: By telling them to eff off if they don't like the way we do things.

Now I don't know about you, but personally I find this attitude rather counterproductive.

Are you implying that the management is trying to get new people involved with SMF by creating this turmoil and cutting or alienating the talented people who were already assisting them?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: krick on January 31, 2010, 01:23:41 PM
Quote from: live627 on January 29, 2010, 07:02:33 PM
Works fine in Firefox 3.6 :S

Yes, it's a bug with webkit renders :P

The same thing happens with the Bolt browser (http://boltbrowser.com) on my Blackberry Curve.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on January 31, 2010, 01:26:21 PM
No, I am trying to imply that despite their best intentions perhaps their human resources management skills could do with a little refining. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tapsa2 on January 31, 2010, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: Antechinus on January 31, 2010, 01:06:38 PM
to eff off
As my mother tongue is not english, i would like to know what "eff off" means. Because i would really like to know what this topic is about.
And also a kind request, if possible, all you people with important things to say, please don´t write it with too much difficult words.
Cause i believe that the majority of people using SMF don't speak english as their mother tongue.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on January 31, 2010, 01:48:06 PM
:D The term "eff off" is a euphenism. It basically means "go away".
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: aishaweb on January 31, 2010, 01:52:41 PM
Quote from: Tapsa2 on January 31, 2010, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: Antechinus on January 31, 2010, 01:06:38 PM
to eff off
As my mother tongue is not english, i would like to know what "eff off" means. Because i would really like to know what this topic is about.
And also a kind request, if possible, all you people with important things to say, please don´t write it with too much difficult words.
Cause i believe that the majority of people using SMF don't speak english as their mother tongue.

F**** OFF
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: IdanC on January 31, 2010, 02:35:43 PM
i really hope things will turn out for the best, and this amazing project will go on.

further more, putting your dirty laundry out like that is absolutely brilliant! becoming aware to the issues behind the scenes makes me as a user feel like a part of the project, and my loyalty and my will to contribute increase accordingly.

thank you, and good luck!

p.s.
as someone who's (hopefully) on the verge of managing a very large community, it's very educational to be exposed to such a debate...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ApplianceJunk on January 31, 2010, 02:42:15 PM
Don't let SMF die.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: LiroyvH on January 31, 2010, 03:19:50 PM
Quote from: ApplianceJunk on January 31, 2010, 02:42:15 PM
Don't let SMF die.

That is most certainly not the intention :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Gary on January 31, 2010, 03:21:32 PM
It wont die, SMF still has a team behind it.

But I think, that for many, it may not be the same as it used to be.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 31, 2010, 07:46:00 PM
I think someone should lock this topic. I really don't think there should be a discussion about it here for a few reasons that I won't share publicly.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: krick on January 31, 2010, 07:52:07 PM
Has anyone on either side of the argument looked at the way the MAME project is run?...
http://mamedev.org/

MAME is a piece of software that emulates arcade machines.  The mame team consists of developers all over the globe contributing new code and bug fixes which are collected and released by a core team of developers.  Nobody is paid, it's strictly volunteer only.  At any given time, there's one "coordinator" who oversees the project and acts as a lead developer and architect.  This coordinator changes from time to time as the team sees fit.

Like SMF, they don't have a traditional open source license, but they seem to keep moving forward with an intermediate update once a week or so, and a full update every month (roughly).

Here's their license...
http://mamedev.org/legal.html

Obviously, the end product is very different, but I think there's still some good ideas about he way that the project is run that could be applied to the SMF.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: forsakenlad on January 31, 2010, 07:53:54 PM
Quote from: Kill Em All on January 31, 2010, 07:46:00 PM
I think someone should lock this topic. I really don't think there should be a discussion about it here for a few reasons that I won't share publicly.

Well lets keep it open, locking topics (or the mentality behind it) is what has brought everything to this stage at the beginning. Let's trust our community and friends to be mature and prudent :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: KensonPlays on January 31, 2010, 08:25:59 PM
Even if SMF stops existing, will the software stop working? If not, I will use 2.0RC{whatever} if SMF goes down, and never will use vBull unless my dad forces me, for example, which he won't because our family can't afford it, so that is one reason I use SMF...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Garou on January 31, 2010, 08:42:16 PM
In the hypothetical event that SMF were to disappear eventually the old versions would develop security holes. I'm of the opinion that SMF has such a huge fan base that there would be some sort of SMF underground that would find a way to keep it going. Probably will never be a need though.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on January 31, 2010, 09:29:21 PM
Quote from: Kill Em All on January 31, 2010, 07:46:00 PM
I think someone should lock this topic. I really don't think there should be a discussion about it here for a few reasons that I won't share publicly.

Do you remember Enron?  Would you rather know when things aren't going so good, or just be surprised by it later when it all falls apart and you're left without support? 

I would think it would be better to be informed, and make decisions based on that information, than have everything secret and not even know whether or not you should be concerned.

Public ignorance is a bad thing.  It is NEVER a good thing.

Keep the public informed.  The only time anything should ever be secret in a project like this is in regards to people's security.  if it's not a security concern, then it shouldn't be a hidden concern.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 31, 2010, 10:07:09 PM
There are pros and cons to this topic. I see where you are coming from. But this is also how rumors get started in my opinion.

The public should be given some light as to what is going on, such as the SMF restructure, that was a good post.

Just my views. I still respect everyone just as much.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on January 31, 2010, 10:11:28 PM
Quote from: Kill Em All on January 31, 2010, 10:07:09 PM
There are pros and cons to this topic. I see where you are coming from. But this is also how rumors get started in my opinion.

No, rumours get started when people DON'T know what's going on.  They don't know, so they make something up, and spread what they've made up.  THAT'S WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP PEOPLE INFORMED.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: chep on January 31, 2010, 10:22:41 PM
As a passerby - This topic is about lack of information and more about an underground disturbance which is not being discussed openly. If something cannot be discussed openly then it doesn't seem like the open forum is a great place for such a topic. I don't agree that "absolute" approaches to openness are applicable in all areas and more importantly situation sometimes dictates. I'll just assume SMF is at great risk of internal combustion since I read about 3-4 people left/quit/retired , there are divisions among some key members and the founder and the fact that some say we need a thread to talk about it openly to keep people informed. Thanks for sending me the hints at least.

SMF is a great product.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kill Em All on January 31, 2010, 11:03:10 PM
K. I see where you are coming from, but I think both views are correct, just depends on the technicalities of the situation at hand. But now that I look at this more I see where you are coming from.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Douglas on January 31, 2010, 11:35:17 PM
Quote from: chepI'll just assume SMF is at great risk of internal combustion since I read about 3-4 people left/quit/retired , there are divisions among some key members and the founder and the fact that some say we need a thread to talk about it openly to keep people informed.
Never assume anything, especially when those assumptions have the potential for being egregiously wrong (as they are in this case).  :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: chep on February 01, 2010, 12:11:42 AM
Well then come out and lay out the real facts if I'm all wrong. Otherwise this topic sounds like a bunch of ten year olds as opposed to an organized group of collaborators. I'll continue to assume as I desire. It's not derogatory in nature or malicious. RE: Egregious - On the contrary. Being correct is often a perception which is based upon personal or selfish matters and is not always a black and white subject. If you can't stand the criticism or assumptions then don't air the dirty laundry.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: 青山 素子 on February 01, 2010, 01:48:05 AM
Quote from: chep on February 01, 2010, 12:11:42 AM
Well then come out and lay out the real facts if I'm all wrong.

There aren't too many facts at this time, as far as I can gather. I was around for a bit of the start, but not most of the recent stuff going on. Basically, some actions were taken to cut down on random political discussion and focus that discussion better, but it perhaps wasn't handled in the best manner. As a result, most of the former team members, and several current team members were very upset. Acting on emotion, many things got said, posted topics got deleted so as to keep the turmoil out of the public eye, and other actions occurred.

As a result, many people got the impression the project was dead, or that all the developers quit, or some other, mostly inaccurate idea. Rumors circulated in many areas. The topic was posted in order to address the rumors by noting publicly that talks between the two camps are ongoing.


Quote from: chep on February 01, 2010, 12:11:42 AM
If you can't stand the criticism or assumptions then don't air the dirty laundry.

Unfortunately, the dirty laundry was hung out in many places outside this board, making it important that it be addressed in some kind of official way. Unaddressed rumors can be very damaging.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Owdy on February 01, 2010, 02:16:43 AM
Quote from: chep on January 31, 2010, 10:22:41 PM
I'll just assume SMF is at great risk of internal combustion since I read about 3-4 people left/quit/retired
Actually, 23 team members have left in past 8 months. So yeah, this is serious business.

http://www.simplemachines.org/about/team.php

edit: and RC3 development progress you can see in here: http://dev.simplemachines.org/mantis/
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 01, 2010, 02:51:18 AM
One of them was left out of the list in the topic you are thinking of, so it's actually 24. Also, technically I am not on the team at the moment and may or may not return, depending on how these talks go. So it could well end up being 25 or more.

The "actions" that were taken last week resulted in the immediate loss of 30% of the remaining SMF team overnight, with more following in the next few days. These were people the team wanted to keep, not garbage they wanted to get rid of. To say that this "perhaps wasn't handled in the best manner" is something of an understatement.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: David111567 on February 01, 2010, 10:45:32 AM



QuoteYour analogy seems rather private sector centric, none of the examples involved a community based project only commercial ventures. McDonald's as do most large corporations consists of a rigid hierarchy which has no room nor any desire for any type of worker based "democracy" let alone community involvement. I'm not sure Microsoft is the best of examples either as I just can't see SMF as being the Microsoft of forum software or any stepping up to the plate to do volunteer work for Bill Gates.

Let's try a closer analogy, suppose you where doing fund raising for the local food bank and asked how the funds where to be used and you were told that it must remain a secret to avoid public embarrassment. Another scenario might be that you were baking cookies for the PTA and asking if your Gramndmothers recipie  for brownies would remain yours or be copyrighted by the PTA then told that the possibility of the PTA becoming a private concern was a secret and the recipes status would be made known to you as events transpired. 

Would you even donate to a concern who's books and policy's where kept from public view?

Dang.  You're better at this than I am!  Yes...absolutely, I see your point very clearly.  Good one.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Paracelsus on February 01, 2010, 02:10:57 PM
Most, if not all problems among people exist because of failure in communicating with each other.

I hope everything turns out ok for SMF... remember that the founders dream should be respected but at some point it is no longer the 'baby' it used to be and you just have to let it go so that it can grow by itself and become master of its own destiny.

(I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but you get my point)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ardd on February 01, 2010, 02:43:53 PM
Quote from: David111567 on February 01, 2010, 10:45:32 AM



QuoteYour analogy seems rather private sector centric, none of the examples involved a community based project only commercial ventures. McDonald's as do most large corporations consists of a rigid hierarchy which has no room nor any desire for any type of worker based "democracy" let alone community involvement. I'm not sure Microsoft is the best of examples either as I just can't see SMF as being the Microsoft of forum software or any stepping up to the plate to do volunteer work for Bill Gates.

Let's try a closer analogy, suppose you where doing fund raising for the local food bank and asked how the funds where to be used and you were told that it must remain a secret to avoid public embarrassment. Another scenario might be that you were baking cookies for the PTA and asking if your Gramndmothers recipie  for brownies would remain yours or be copyrighted by the PTA then told that the possibility of the PTA becoming a private concern was a secret and the recipes status would be made known to you as events transpired. 

Would you even donate to a concern who's books and policy's where kept from public view?

Dang.  You're better at this than I am!  Yes...absolutely, I see your point very clearly.  Good one.
I think it's very cool that we could provide opinion from two very different perspectives, points from each are valid. I enjoy this type of point counterpoint conversation as it makes me think not only about your positions but mine as well, win, win. :)   
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 01, 2010, 02:59:11 PM
I think it's time to stop all the yapping and have a bit of action. (http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c018.gif)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 01, 2010, 03:16:26 PM
How about having a bit of patience, showing a bit of respect for both parties while in negotiation, and quit with the one liners you keep throwing around.
It has been mentioned that there is no 'quick fix', but yet you know this already, you are in fact "on the team"  ???
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 01, 2010, 03:20:04 PM
Pardon me for bloody breathing.


Just so that you know, I suffer from acute tenosynovitis.


As a result, one liners are about the best I can do.


Thankyou for your concern.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 01, 2010, 03:35:41 PM
*shakes head
Just recognise your position, and that what you type has an impact on the eyes that fall on them.
Alot of people are thirsty for blood and will strike upon any angle offered.
But I will opt out of this discussion, recognising my own ignorance.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 01, 2010, 03:41:48 PM
Wise move.


What I put was meant to be a bit of friendly urging. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 01, 2010, 03:48:17 PM
Quote from: Kat on February 01, 2010, 03:41:48 PM
Wise move.
pmsl
*couldnt help it
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 01, 2010, 03:50:35 PM
I'm glad.


We can be friends, again. (http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c014.gif)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: catfished on February 01, 2010, 04:44:52 PM
Quote from: Kat on February 01, 2010, 03:50:35 PM
I'm glad.


We can be friends, again. (http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c014.gif)

That's great. I hope the two factions can have a similar result.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 01, 2010, 04:46:10 PM
Yeah, me too.


I sometimes think a small giggle might help, which is why I do the one-liners, sometimes.


It's all very sad, more than anything.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Cassiel on February 01, 2010, 07:08:27 PM
Kat, just know that at least someone out there loves your one-liners. ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: C4G-TK on February 01, 2010, 08:37:07 PM
Maybe we can call Obama and have a Beer Summit! 

Woohoo!  I'll take a Rolling Rock, please! :o
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: bullan on February 01, 2010, 08:59:13 PM
Quote from: Nao on January 30, 2010, 08:27:09 AM
..............
Oh, wait...
hxxp://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?337121-Former-vBulletin-lead-developer-Kier-Darby-to-develop-new-forum-software&p=1905469&viewfull=1#post1905469
Forgot I said anything about respectable companies ;)
...............

let just hope he didn't start working with Unknown cause lots of forum (communities) software will became obsolete
:P
or maybe let's hope so??
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 02, 2010, 01:43:30 AM
I think i have missed the action. can anyone tell me whats going on? Is SMF going to close or what ?  :(


Please tell me what disputes has happened here.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: nemesis99 on February 02, 2010, 01:50:36 AM
I would certainly like to know the outcome of this matter as well.  I had SMF 2.0 at the top of my list for forum software on a site I'm opening though after seeing the current rumblings the last thing I want to do is begin using a forum software whose company is having serious internal political issues.  I'm likely to fall back to my secondary or tertiary choices if this continues.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 02, 2010, 03:32:10 AM
Competition is good. Perhaps two, three, or four different branches will increase drive for innovation.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: DeniGMK on February 02, 2010, 04:27:43 AM
Can anyone update me over PM?

I really want to know whats going on here.  :'(
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on February 02, 2010, 04:32:29 AM
Quote from: RowdyMusician on February 02, 2010, 03:32:10 AM
Competition is good. Perhaps two, three, or four different branches will increase drive for innovation.
SMF won't get forked, as the license forbids it.
If the whole team would be to retire, they would have to create a new forum system from scratch. SMF belongs to the SM LLC which is owned by Amacythe.

@talktoanil, DeniGMK> Okay, I'm going to try and summarize this. Since the SMF team hasn't communicated at all on the matter, and most of these stories happened outside of public (and of my) view, I'm afraid it will be very hard for me to give both sides' arguments, so I'll just tell one side of the story (Unknown's and Jeff's), and make sure I'm indicating whatever information is hear-say, i.e. no proof available in public, only affirmations from one person or another.

There was a fight recently in the private boards (which I don't have access to, so this is all only second hand). Apparently, the current management's involvement in SMF was under discussion (I'm not sure). It turned out that the majority of the team wanted is to turn the SimpleMachines LLC into a non-profit organization and have a board of elected managers (and maybe, later, give SMF a more permissive license, but this may not have been discussed at the time.)

When SMF changed from being owned by Lewis Media to an LLC, Amacythe (the person who's currently in charge of managing SMF's money donations) was appointed project manager, and was to find more partners for the LLC -- but she never did, although there are different stories on why she didn't. She also promised to Unknown (the main historical developer of SMF) that she would transmit powers back to him in case he came back to the project. When he did, she refused to give ownership back. (Gathered from whatever information is available to the public.) She is also accused of various things, which I'm not going to repeat here because again it's all hear-say and I'm trying to summarize what has been said here and there, not to determine whether it is true or not. Eh.

*If* I understand correctly, that is the story of what is happening behind the scenes. The current SMF team is mainly comprised of Amacythe's friends and/or supporters or members who aren't interested in the team politics and only want to work on SMF. The members who were ousted or left by themselves, are mostly the original SMF founders and project managers, as well as most of the historical developers (Unknown, JayBachatero, Thantos, etc.), and collaborators who've been in the team since the days Unknown and Jeff were around, too, or are simply sympathetic to their side of the story.

I don't know any of the protagonists personally, and frankly I'm tired of politics, so I'd rather see everyone come back and get back to work, but unfortunately it is not going to be the case until the situation is resolved at the management team level.

Please, if anyone from the team feels I have incorrectly exposed the situation, feel free to tell me, I will edit my post as soon as possible. (Please don't edit my post directly, as it could be seen as censorship.)

EDIT: modified the story on how SMF changed hands, thanks to details given to me in the meantime.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 02, 2010, 04:37:39 AM
Nao's post explains this all quite well, without going in to too much details...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Paracelsus on February 02, 2010, 05:32:57 AM
I personally find very hard to imagine SMF without the steering of people like [Unknown], Douglas and so on (even if they are not fully 'present' at certain periods).

The fact is that SMF is getting stagnant and therefore need the driving force and clarity of members like the ones above.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Deaks on February 02, 2010, 05:33:10 AM
Nao you have it pretty much ... guys simply remember that big names on SMF history got banned by the team as they dont like direction SMF is heading.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: David111567 on February 02, 2010, 06:14:54 AM
Quote from: Runic on February 02, 2010, 05:33:10 AM
Nao you have it pretty much ... guys simply remember that big names on SMF history got banned by the team as they dont like direction SMF is heading.

Ok...then since we are all left with nothing but opinions or uneducated speculation ("uneducated" would refer to people like me, who are not looking from the inside and don't have all the facts) on which way this could go...let me ask a few FAIR questions of the "insiders" who would be able to give an educated opinion (keeping in mind that it is only OPINION that we are talking about, here):

Is SMF (forgive the terminology) "screwed" from this point out?

Will SMF be able to bounce back and create something as vibrant and as remarkable as they have in the past?  Or:

Are we essentially looking at a "dead" piece of software (meaning, no more updates, little support, if any) within the next 6 months to a year?

I know I'm the one who may be HAMMERED for asking ...but I'm not asking anything that any of you aren't wondering anyway, if you're honest with yourselves.

I've noticed a lot less major mod developement....a lot less 3rd party involvement, a lot less EVERYTHING...of late.  I am not an advocate of airing the dirty laundry, but since it is, in fact, aired....the question needs to be addressed....is this the "beginning of the end" here...or is it gonna all pan out, given time, level heads and a fair amount of compromise?  Again (and again) I will stress, I'm just looking for educated opinions.  Been using SMF for years now and have remained a silent and happy user.  Now I have 3 forums running and established with fairly heavy traffic on 2 of them.  Do I need to think "redesign', here?

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 02, 2010, 06:19:24 AM
Quote from: David111567 on February 02, 2010, 06:14:54 AM
Is SMF (forgive the terminology) "screwed" from this point out?
I don't think so. The project will survive in some shape or form - currently it is just seeking the shape and form.

Quote from: David111567 on February 02, 2010, 06:14:54 AM
Will SMF be able to bounce back and create something as vibrant and as remarkable as they have in the past?  Or:
Hopefully so.

Quote from: David111567 on February 02, 2010, 06:14:54 AM
Are we essentially looking at a "dead" piece of software (meaning, no more updates, little support, if any) within the next 6 months to a year?
Hopefully not, at least I would think 2.0 will be going final, and will be supported..
Can't say anything more since I'm no longer on team, but I doubt this would kill SMF in any way...
SMF still has a team behind it.

Quote from: David111567 on February 02, 2010, 06:14:54 AM
I've noticed a lot less mod developement....a lot lest 3rd party involvement, a lot less EVERYTHING...of late.  I am not an advocate of airing the dirty laundry, but since it is, in fact, aired....the question needs to be addressed....is this the "beginning of the end" here...or is it gonna all pan out, given time, level heads and a fair amount of compromise? 
Honestly - both are possible scenarios, but I would think that time will heal, and SMF will survive this.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 02, 2010, 08:59:17 AM
as the Operations Manager for SMF, I believe that I can say:

SMF is not dying or even on life-support. Yes, the project has had some turn-over in staffing, yes, there have been some arguments, but the team that we have is still on the job and we are always inviting promising new talent from the member pool to join.

This post was made to address a number of rumors that were flying around. Specific details are not really necessary...   If you've read the rumors and accusations, then you understand this post. If you have not, then this post is meant to keep people "in the loop" that "yes, something is going on, but we are handling it"

Keep smiling. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 02, 2010, 09:13:04 AM
You show me a community that doesn't have fights and I'll show you a community that's stagnating.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nick Whetstone on February 02, 2010, 10:52:37 AM
Quote from: Kat on February 02, 2010, 09:13:04 AM
You show me a community that doesn't have fights and I'll show you a community that's stagnating.
Hadn't looked at it this way, but you're right. If there are no arguments, chances are it is either a totalitarian website that doesn't tolerate any other view point, or there are no members around to fight with each other.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 02, 2010, 10:56:35 AM
There is no way any type of contract exists which could prevent some of the "team" from branching off and designing their own software from scratch, as I meant.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: mirahalo on February 02, 2010, 11:02:35 AM
Quote from: RowdyMusician on February 02, 2010, 10:56:35 AM
There is no way any type of contract exists which could prevent some of the "team" from branching off and designing their own software from scratch, as I meant.

true, but all of the smf friends, and I mena ALL love SMF thats way I don't think this is going to happen.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 02, 2010, 11:03:58 AM
There's a passion for SMF.


If that passion wasn't there, people wouldn't feel so strongly about it.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 02, 2010, 11:16:03 AM
Just playing devil's advocate, and not speaking as if I want SMF to split up, it could be advantageous to have another free forum software driving competition. Especially if SMF has so much talent that they are tripping on each other, if they are, then perhaps some of that talent will be more productive going their own way. Freedom is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Deaks on February 02, 2010, 12:24:54 PM
Rowdy: the Phoenix is rising ... keep an eye out for it
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: David111567 on February 02, 2010, 12:37:45 PM
Quote from: RowdyMusician on February 02, 2010, 11:16:03 AM
Just playing devil's advocate, and not speaking as if I want SMF to split up, it could be advantageous to have another free forum software driving competition. Especially if SMF has so much talent that they are tripping on each other, if they are, then perhaps some of that talent will be more productive going their own way. Freedom is a wonderful thing.

Well...it wouldn't be adventagous to those of us who put our faith and our time and efforts into building websites around SMF.  It would be a disaster for many many of us to have to start over...lose what we got and possibly lose our member base to top it off.  Freedom is a wonderful thing...granted...but if SMF folds because of petty immature squabbling, I swear as God is my witness I will never go with any product that any one of their dev team worked on.  Reliability is a good thing, too.  Leaving thousands in the lurch, stopping developement and breaking your word to the people who have backed you (in some cases, thru donations) for years simply because you have petty in-fighting...would be a realllllly crappy, immature thing to do, and would not do their individual reputations any good, either.

It's nice that you don't have so much tied up into SMF that you can dismiss this as "freedom is a wonderful thing".   I have a dog you can kick now, too, if you like.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 02, 2010, 12:52:25 PM
LOLOL. What can I say? I just have a little more trust in my fellow Man than you do I think. Change is inevitable and so is the fact that Man will adapt. It is clear SMF is going to continue being developed so keep using it if you want. My guess is a new project might have a converter also, to predict one possible future. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: forsakenlad on February 02, 2010, 03:46:18 PM
Quote from: Kat on February 02, 2010, 11:03:58 AM
There's a passion for SMF.


If that passion wasn't there, people wouldn't feel so strongly about it.

Well there are different types of passions. Before I used to have passion for SMF as a father would have for his child, now I feel like I have a passion for my investments.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: kat on February 02, 2010, 03:52:02 PM
I guess we've all invested, whether it be time'n'effort, or hard cash.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: erutan on February 02, 2010, 04:41:22 PM
I haven't been active in the community but have been using the forum on a few sites for quite a while (1.1 beta) and evangelicalize it to those who are looking for one. :)

Hope you guys sort everything out and everything is on track!  Best of luck in what is sure to be a difficult experience for all...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: feline on February 02, 2010, 06:44:10 PM
That what's going on currently, is a disgrace for SMF and all the people who are involved in the development or were involved.

Hundreds of charter members have invested your money to support the development of SMF, with the result that it held out to the users with constantly new excuses and that now for two years.

It is now high time that SMF makes a clear statement what happens next, because this discussion will help the users anything.

If not enough people for an effective development are in place .. Here, there are certainly enough people with enough skill and certainly with more than a few of the former team members, otherwise I can not explain the long development time.

Fel
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: C4G-TK on February 02, 2010, 07:13:02 PM
Thanks for your explanation Nao.  I do agree with David111567.  If Amacythe is more concerned with her own power or relinquishing her power than the thousands of people who use the product for their businesses (not to mention their community members), it does paint her in an awful light.

As admins of our own communities, we hopefully strive to be fair regardless of our personal likes/dislikes with people whom we are in business.  When our thirst to control and dictate gets the better of us, it is better for us to step down than to continue and do ourselves and others a disservice.  If Amacythe agreed to step down when someone else returned, then this is what should be done.  (Of course, I follow through when I give someone my word.)  It isn't to say that we don't appreciate Amacythe for her time at the helm, but an agreement is an agreement.

Also, if Amacythe did not fulfill her job requirements by gathering other partners, than this product, contributors, and community were done a disservice.  I'm not familiar with the structure of SMF, but if this is the case then those financial backers (contributors or charter members) should be able to choose/replace this person.

Sounds like someone is really putting the a** in passion for SMF?


It's no wonder we're seeing so many responses saying that SMF is looking for new talent.


If what Nao says is true, my opinion of those in charge and SMF has really taken a hit.  Prior to this, I looked up at you guys and gals for being able to come together and work together as a team.  But, broken promises and people grasping for power really changes all of that. 

For shame.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 08:02:28 PM
Quote from: feline on February 02, 2010, 06:44:10 PM
That what's going on currently, is a disgrace for SMF and all the people who are involved in the development or were involved.

Hundreds of charter members have invested your money to support the development of SMF, with the result that it held out to the users with constantly new excuses and that now for two years.

It is now high time that SMF makes a clear statement what happens next, because this discussion will help the users anything.

If not enough people for an effective development are in place .. Here, there are certainly enough people with enough skill and certainly with more than a few of the former team members, otherwise I can not explain the long development time.

Fel

Good post.  :)

I always appreciate an honest opinion from a person's own perspective. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: EricTheRed on February 02, 2010, 09:31:57 PM
This news is slightly disturbing to me. I really do hope resolve is found since my freshly built SMF site is about to launch this week. This thread is huge, so I honestly didn't read the whole thing.

Let's just hope things get worked out, otherwise I will be looking to convert to new software before I even launch :/
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: gisfreak on February 02, 2010, 09:44:07 PM
Quote from: EricTheRed on February 02, 2010, 09:31:57 PM
This news is slightly disturbing to me. I really do hope resolve is found since my freshly built SMF site is about to launch this week. This thread is huge, so I honestly didn't read the whole thing.

Let's just hope things get worked out, otherwise I will be looking to convert to new software before I even launch :/

yep mate, same for me

i just love SMF recently as i find it suits for me than phpBB, and i change my phpBB to SMF, hum, maybe just for couple month

and this problem arise and make me feel sad. honestly i dont know exactly what is going on in here , since so many rumors on that :'(

the only thing i can do is just WAIT and HOPE  :-[

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: vbgamer45 on February 02, 2010, 09:49:22 PM
For users just wait and see. I plan on support SMF for as long as I can and it is still my #1 choice for forum software
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 02, 2010, 09:54:53 PM
Quote from: vbgamer45 on February 02, 2010, 09:49:22 PM
For users just wait and see. I plan on support SMF for as long as I can and it is still my #1 choice for forum software
x2  Though my vote doesn't mean much :P
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: EricTheRed on February 02, 2010, 10:00:42 PM
as long as a community that is still willing to support a product exists, then it's all good! It still concerns all of us who love SMF though. This is, hands down, the best community software I've ever worked with.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: 青山 素子 on February 02, 2010, 10:37:15 PM
Quote from: C4G-TK on February 02, 2010, 07:13:02 PM
If Amacythe is more concerned with her own power or relinquishing her power than the thousands of people who use the product for their businesses (not to mention their community members), it does paint her in an awful light.

Many of the people spreading this word don't actually know the situation, so I'd take that kind of stuff with a grain of salt. Some actions that were done might have felt that way, but nobody can really speak to the true reason except for the person who did those actions. I prefer to believe in the best in people. I honestly think that Amacythe did what she felt was the best for the community and the project.


Quote from: C4G-TK on February 02, 2010, 07:13:02 PM
If Amacythe agreed to step down when someone else returned, then this is what should be done.  (Of course, I follow through when I give someone my word.)  It isn't to say that we don't appreciate Amacythe for her time at the helm, but an agreement is an agreement.

I was on the team for some time, and never heard of any sort of agreement. This is the first I heard of it. Was this said by someone who would know about such a thing, or was it some more unfounded rumors?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: IVIIVI4ck3y27 on February 02, 2010, 11:47:35 PM
The bad part about a situation like this is that it can spiral out of control with heresy and rhetoric that is patently untrue.  People become passionate and jump to conclusions without even having a shred of the facts.  I'd personally like to urge everyone to take a wait and see approach to what is going to happen with SMF but don't add to the problems yourselves.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:54:08 PM
QuoteI honestly think that Amacythe did what she felt was the best for the community and the project.

There's a clear difference between doing the right thing (emotional perception), and doing things right (logical correctness).

I always wonder about statements like this, because you can always mirror the context, and the statement still holds true:

QuoteI honestly think that Hitler did what he felt was the best for Germany and the world.

Can anyone argue that he felt any differently?  ( I apologize for using such an extreme example, just needed to demonstracize the comparison to show that it's the same failing logic on a different scale.)

In the end it is our actions, not our emotions, that define us.

How we feel about what we do is insignificant.  The only thing of significance is the action unto itself.

Feeling like she's doing the right thing doesn't make it any less wrong.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:57:08 PM
Quote from: IVIIVI4ck3y27 on February 02, 2010, 11:47:35 PM
The bad part about a situation like this is that it can spiral out of control with heresy and rhetoric that is patently untrue.

I'm almost certain you meant to say "hearsay".  This sort of thing rarely ever involves heresy, though it may involve heretics, just not in the same sense.  :P
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Dannii on February 03, 2010, 12:12:28 AM
Where are the scholars of the Book of Unknown? They will tell us who the heretics are!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: IVIIVI4ck3y27 on February 03, 2010, 12:19:03 AM
Quote from: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:57:08 PM
Quote from: IVIIVI4ck3y27 on February 02, 2010, 11:47:35 PM
The bad part about a situation like this is that it can spiral out of control with heresy and rhetoric that is patently untrue.

I'm almost certain you meant to say "hearsay".  This sort of thing rarely ever involves heresy, though it may involve heretics, just not in the same sense.  :P

Dang it Orstio...  you're raining on my cult of personality!  ;)  :D

But yes I meant hearsay.  Duly corrected.  ::bows::
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 03, 2010, 01:03:52 AM
Quote from: Dannii on February 03, 2010, 12:12:28 AM
Where are the scholars of the Book of Unknown? They will tell us who the heretics are!
Actually, the part of the book of unknown hidden in action=about:unknown sounds strangely fitting to this situation.... ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 03, 2010, 01:27:02 AM
so when this drama is going to end ?

Finally, we, the end users of SMF are going to affect a lot here.   :-X
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: 青山 素子 on February 03, 2010, 01:28:50 AM
Quote from: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:54:08 PM
QuoteI honestly think that Amacythe did what she felt was the best for the community and the project.

There's a clear difference between doing the right thing (emotional perception), and doing things right (logical correctness).

I always wonder about statements like this, because you can always mirror the context, and the statement still holds true:

QuoteI honestly think that Hitler did what he felt was the best for Germany and the world.

Can anyone argue that he felt any differently?  ( I apologize for using such an extreme example, just needed to demonstracize the comparison to show that it's the same failing logic on a different scale.)

Gosh darn it, you invoked Godwin's law!

I do agree with you there. Hitler likely felt he was doing the right thing. It isn't failing logic, however.

Acknowledging that Hitler probably did feel he was doing the right thing recognizes he's a person, not some demon from hell who knows they are evil and revels in it. Often, even the people who do wrong things do them for the right reasons. That doesn't make the actions less wrong, but it might lend a perspective that demonizing the person isn't the most productive thing to do. That was my point. Tearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings. Sadly, I've seen a lot personal attacks going on in this situation.


Quote from: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:54:08 PM
Feeling like she's doing the right thing doesn't make it any less wrong.

That can be generalized and still remain true, but that wasn't my point. Don't pick on the person, fix the action or determine the cause and solve that. Just like terrorism against Western society won't stop even if OBL is captured because there is a huge underlying problem, problems in the project won't go away if Amacythe is kicked out and torn up in the public eye.


Quote from: talktoanil on February 03, 2010, 01:27:02 AM
so when this drama is going to end ?

Finally, we, the end users of SMF are going to affect a lot here.   :-X

When people stop taking cheap shots at an easy target and let the negotiators handle their work. So, basically, not anytime soon given the way this topic has gone.

SMF the software shouldn't be affected with these ongoing issues (other than to perhaps demotivate and distract the developers).
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 03, 2010, 02:10:49 AM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on February 02, 2010, 10:37:15 PMMany of the people spreading this word don't actually know the situation, so I'd take that kind of stuff with a grain of salt. Some actions that were done might have felt that way, but nobody can really speak to the true reason except for the person who did those actions. I prefer to believe in the best in people. I honestly think that Amacythe did what she felt was the best for the community and the project.
I'm not going to dispute that you honestly feel that. People honestly feel all sorts of things. What I am going to ask is are you prepared to consider the possibility that what you honestly feel is not actually true?

Another question: while I agree that believing the best of people is in some ways admirable it can also lead to gullibility. Are you prepared to agree that people do not always do things for selfless motives?

QuoteTearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings. Sadly, I've seen a lot personal attacks going on in this situation.
I don't think anyone is denying that she is human and has feelings. The point is whether or not those feelings should be the paramount concern of the entire SMF project.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Powerbob on February 03, 2010, 02:24:17 AM
Quote from: talktoanil on February 03, 2010, 01:27:02 AM
so when this drama is going to end ?

Finally, we, the end users of SMF are going to affect a lot here.   :-X

I think this is the question most of us would like to see answered!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Methylis on February 03, 2010, 03:05:54 AM
When can we expect to see a resolution of this?


Is there a "safety net" to ensure that if the negotiations fail or do not proceed in a timely manner, the project can be forked to ensure that it survives? Is there copyright assignment? Can the license be changed?


While I appreciate the gravity of discussions, this is a piece of software, not the Gaza Strip; the length of time these negotiations seem to be taking concerns me greatly. In fact, it's critically damaging my confidence in the software.


All of the users and Charter Members are suffering here. We are, at the 3 month mark, still waiting on a release of important security fixes to the 2.x branch. In the event that further security issues are discovered, will those be addressed in a timely manner?


We need to know that the project will not die, and vague reassurances do not in any way address that need.


Can we expect to see a conclusion by the end of the week? The end of the month? I need to know if I can stay on SMF or need to move.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 03, 2010, 03:18:51 AM
I can assure you, that however long these discussions may take - it is all done to make the project better. These discussions are not the reason things are not moving forward, and these discussion on either side do not aim to kill the project. SMF is alive, and will remain so regardless of the outcome of these discussions. Simply the way it continues to grow, and the way it continues to operate within the team, and the way it continues to include the friends and the community in it's growth and direction is what is being discussed. Not to end the project, not to put it on hold, but to make it better for everyone, and a better environment for the team and community to grow together, and learn from each other...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 03, 2010, 03:44:36 AM
QuoteAll of the users and Charter Members are suffering here. We are, at the 3 month mark, still waiting on a release of important security fixes to the 2.x branch. In the event that further security issues are discovered, will those be addressed in a timely manner?

Technically, we're at the 2 month mark from 1.1.11 patching those bugs, but still, it's sub-optimal.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on February 03, 2010, 04:34:02 AM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on February 03, 2010, 01:28:50 AM
Gosh darn it, you invoked Godwin's law!
After 8-9 pages, the probability was 99.7%.

QuoteTearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings.
Given that she rarely ever posts in public boards, it is not surprising that she stands as an easy scapegoat.
Really, what she needs to do here is post a public message, signed by herself, explaining her reasons for refusing to give back the project to [Unknown]. It is one thing to have feelings and I respect them (being a bit of a drama queen myself). But breaking a promise and endangering a project on which dozens of volunteers are working all day long, is another thing. I have done stupid things earlier in my life, but I always explained myself when it came up. Sometimes this has led me to reconsider my point of view. I see no reason why she should be shielded from the public debate.
I, myself, would be tempted to ask: what has Amacythe done for the SMF project in the 6 years she's officially been on the team? The SMF2 project was started 5 years ago and has yet to come to a conclusion. I remember when I joined the team 2 years ago, many people were already complaining that SMF2 wasn't out yet, and the team promised it would be there in a few months time. Sometimes, it feels like the project was secretly renamed to SMF3 without the public's knowledge (given that many more changes have been made in the last 2 years, while it was supposed to be feature-frozen.)
So, as a result, it would only be logical to blame responsibility on the project's lead manager. Which, in this case, is Amacythe. Does she have any good reasons for forcing the release to be stalled? Or is it the developers' fault? If it's the devs, why doesn't she agree on hiring more developers? How many times have I said I was open to the idea of joining the core developer team? It's not only me -- many people like Arantor have expressed their desire to help get this out as soon as possible. SMF2 is not rocket science, it doesn't require a 5-year course to learn how to improve it. I do it myself everyday on my own site.
As I said on smf-friends, I believe it is necessary to change the dev team structure to allow up to 15 capable developers recruited from the best coders around here. A team coordinator could check all code commits and make sure they're good enough. Some of the team could focus on fixing bug tracker reports, the rest could focus on other aspects undoubtedly discussed on the team boards, etc, etc.

Granted, most of the capable developers have left, so it's important that the negociations come to a satisfying conclusion, because I feel SMF couldn't outlive the end of contributions from such talented people as those who left the SMF over the Amacythe fight. The developers who remained on the project, I feel have done so not because they've taken their sides, but because they're either too busy IRL to take part in these discussions, or because they don't like politics. Whatever the reason, one thing is clear (and since the bug tracker is now viewable by anyone, it's easy to check), no commit has been done in nearly 2 weeks now. Waiting for the developers to "want to work on the project again" is madness. There are 4 devs, and they're all MIA right now.

Therefore, I would like Amacythe to publicly explain why she acted this way, and whether she considers she's doing it for the good of the project. I expect the situation has calmed down so it shouldn't create another full-scale war, instead it can only help the community to bring the debate to a public place, if only by notifying them of any progress being made. Because, believe me, I've seen worse team fights than this one, but I've never seen "negociations" drag on for weeks. At this rate, SMF2 isn't going to be ready for its planned release date (October 2017).

QuoteJust like terrorism against Western society won't stop even if OBL is captured because there is a huge underlying problem, problems in the project won't go away if Amacythe is kicked out and torn up in the public eye.
The only problem the team has acknowledged so far is that Amacythe doesn't want to project to move on. I'm all hears if there are other issues. Anything that could make me think it's not only due to an egotistical behavior, which the community is currently led to believe.

Basically, what's a community project if one person has power over it all?

QuoteWhen people stop taking cheap shots at an easy target and let the negotiators handle their work. So, basically, not anytime soon given the way this topic has gone.
I don't see why the community's concern could slow down internal negotiations.

QuoteSMF the software shouldn't be affected with these ongoing issues (other than to perhaps demotivate and distract the developers).
See above.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Acans on February 03, 2010, 05:01:12 AM
/me thinks out of all this message, from all of sm.org and smf-friends.org. Nao has made more sence of this, given the strongest debait, and has asked for the most important question.

But thats just Wade's thoughts
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kenny01 on February 03, 2010, 05:11:38 AM
I'm suggesting that amnesty be given to Amacythe if in any case find out that some project money been used for something else. This will make it easy for her to hand over to "unknown"

That's my 2cents.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: GravuTrad on February 03, 2010, 05:11:38 AM
Great post nao.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: wildebeast on February 03, 2010, 05:18:52 AM
very well said, Nao - precisely my thoughts (for whatever pittance they are worth)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: bloc on February 03, 2010, 06:03:19 AM
Actually hitting the nail quite good there, Nao. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on February 03, 2010, 06:17:07 AM
As Cat once said in Red Dwarf -- "Twice in a lifetime?! When you're hot you're hot!"
;D

BTW, if it could save the situation quickly, I would tend to go with Kenny01's idea.
(And that horrible typo, "I'm all hears", argh!)

Now I can only wait for further developments, as I've said it all.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 03, 2010, 06:18:56 AM
Quote from: Nao on February 03, 2010, 06:17:07 AM
BTW, if it could save the situation quickly, I would tend to go with Kenny01's idea.
That's been brought up before as well, that the main concern is not what has happened within the LLC before,
but how to get out of the LLC now.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: K Larkin on February 03, 2010, 06:37:46 AM
My first post here. First I want to thank and congratulate everyone responsible for this lovely SMF forum software.

Then *Sigh*.  I had just decided not to migrate my new forum to Vbulletin because of the change of ownership and the nightmares with Vb4.  I did a comparison of all the forums and SMF came out top of my list.
I am very sad to find a big shadow hanging over the future of SMF and I hope that a resolution can come out of it quickly.

The first thing I read when I went into the site is "why SMF is not Open Source" - if I understand right, it is because some people took the work of SMF, repackaged it and sold it or represented it as their own - this is the nature of Open Source.

Volunteers wanted "credit" for the good work they had done. But SMF in surely itself is a living monument to their work.  People won't be fooled by any bad imitation and will always appreciate the work done here.

There may be an inherent contradiction in the set up of SMF, which is trying to have the advantages of Open Source without being open source.   But in any partnership (which this seems to be - between Owners and Volunteers) it is essential to spell out and agree what each side is putting in and what each side wants to take out.

My suggestion to all those involved in the discussions is to take a deep breath, relax and be totally honest with yourselves and each other about what you want to put in to this and what you want to take out.  Then see if there is any way that everyone's wants can be met.

Good luck.  And congratulations again on all the wonderful work you have done.

And in the meantime, is it safe for me to set my forum up with SMF ?








Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kenny01 on February 03, 2010, 07:08:46 AM
Quote from: K Larkin on February 03, 2010, 06:37:46 AM
And in the meantime, is it safe for me to set my forum up with SMF ?
This forum is still on SMF, that answer your question.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Deaks on February 03, 2010, 07:47:00 AM
K Larkin, SMF is still the best free software on the market, the issue is not with SMF itself its with the red badges .. these people are ruining it and stopping smf being what its about ...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 03, 2010, 07:49:58 AM
Quote from: K Larkin on February 03, 2010, 06:37:46 AM
And in the meantime, is it safe for me to set my forum up with SMF ?
Yes, absolutely, positively - At least, that is how I see it, and even though I left the team partially due to this all, I still run a development version of 2.0 on a pretty active website live, and am not concidering to switch to anything else. SMF is still the best there is.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 03, 2010, 08:03:45 AM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on February 03, 2010, 01:28:50 AM
Quote from: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:54:08 PM
QuoteI honestly think that Amacythe did what she felt was the best for the community and the project.

There's a clear difference between doing the right thing (emotional perception), and doing things right (logical correctness).

I always wonder about statements like this, because you can always mirror the context, and the statement still holds true:

QuoteI honestly think that Hitler did what he felt was the best for Germany and the world.

Can anyone argue that he felt any differently?  ( I apologize for using such an extreme example, just needed to demonstracize the comparison to show that it's the same failing logic on a different scale.)

Gosh darn it, you invoked Godwin's law!

I do agree with you there. Hitler likely felt he was doing the right thing. It isn't failing logic, however.

Acknowledging that Hitler probably did feel he was doing the right thing recognizes he's a person, not some demon from hell who knows they are evil and revels in it. Often, even the people who do wrong things do them for the right reasons. That doesn't make the actions less wrong, but it might lend a perspective that demonizing the person isn't the most productive thing to do. That was my point. Tearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings. Sadly, I've seen a lot personal attacks going on in this situation.


Quote from: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:54:08 PM
Feeling like she's doing the right thing doesn't make it any less wrong.

That can be generalized and still remain true, but that wasn't my point. Don't pick on the person, fix the action or determine the cause and solve that. Just like terrorism against Western society won't stop even if OBL is captured because there is a huge underlying problem, problems in the project won't go away if Amacythe is kicked out and torn up in the public eye.


Quote from: talktoanil on February 03, 2010, 01:27:02 AM
so when this drama is going to end ?

Finally, we, the end users of SMF are going to affect a lot here.   :-X

When people stop taking cheap shots at an easy target and let the negotiators handle their work. So, basically, not anytime soon given the way this topic has gone.

SMF the software shouldn't be affected with these ongoing issues (other than to perhaps demotivate and distract the developers).

I mostly agree with this.  You'll see some of my posts at smf-friends.org are aimed at people badmouthing Amacythe without personal justification.  They don't even know her, and are fueling fires to lash out against her.  Now, I don't post to defend her in any way.  But people who don't know her have no place talking about her character.  That doesn't do anyone any good.

Quote
Quote from: Orstio on February 02, 2010, 11:54:08 PM
Feeling like she's doing the right thing doesn't make it any less wrong.

That can be generalized and still remain true, but that wasn't my point.

It might not be your point, but it is mine.  Regardless of how she feels about it, and regardless of how a few others feel about it, what she's doing is wrong. 

One problem will most certainly be fixed by her removal:  The problem of lack of trust.  Most people that know her don't trust her.  That is a fair statement; do a count.  It's also true that most people she knows, she doesn't trust.  You know her well enough to know that.

Just that lack of trust should be enough for you to see that she needs to be removed from the solitary position of managing member of the LLC.  How can she possibly be acting on behalf of a community she doesn't trust, and who doesn't trust her?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: godboko on February 03, 2010, 08:45:02 AM
Quote from: Nao on February 03, 2010, 04:34:02 AM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on February 03, 2010, 01:28:50 AM
Gosh darn it, you invoked Godwin's law!
After 8-9 pages, the probability was 99.7%.

QuoteTearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings.
Given that she rarely ever posts in public boards, it is not surprising that she stands as an easy scapegoat.
Really, what she needs to do here is post a public message, signed by herself, explaining her reasons for refusing to give back the project to [Unknown]. It is one thing to have feelings and I respect them (being a bit of a drama queen myself). But breaking a promise and endangering a project on which dozens of volunteers are working all day long, is another thing. I have done stupid things earlier in my life, but I always explained myself when it came up. Sometimes this has led me to reconsider my point of view. I see no reason why she should be shielded from the public debate.
I, myself, would be tempted to ask: what has Amacythe done for the SMF project in the 6 years she's officially been on the team? The SMF2 project was started 5 years ago and has yet to come to a conclusion. I remember when I joined the team 2 years ago, many people were already complaining that SMF2 wasn't out yet, and the team promised it would be there in a few months time. Sometimes, it feels like the project was secretly renamed to SMF3 without the public's knowledge (given that many more changes have been made in the last 2 years, while it was supposed to be feature-frozen.)
So, as a result, it would only be logical to blame responsibility on the project's lead manager. Which, in this case, is Amacythe. Does she have any good reasons for forcing the release to be stalled? Or is it the developers' fault? If it's the devs, why doesn't she agree on hiring more developers? How many times have I said I was open to the idea of joining the core developer team? It's not only me -- many people like Arantor have expressed their desire to help get this out as soon as possible. SMF2 is not rocket science, it doesn't require a 5-year course to learn how to improve it. I do it myself everyday on my own site.
As I said on smf-friends, I believe it is necessary to change the dev team structure to allow up to 15 capable developers recruited from the best coders around here. A team coordinator could check all code commits and make sure they're good enough. Some of the team could focus on fixing bug tracker reports, the rest could focus on other aspects undoubtedly discussed on the team boards, etc, etc.

Granted, most of the capable developers have left, so it's important that the negociations come to a satisfying conclusion, because I feel SMF couldn't outlive the end of contributions from such talented people as those who left the SMF over the Amacythe fight. The developers who remained on the project, I feel have done so not because they've taken their sides, but because they're either too busy IRL to take part in these discussions, or because they don't like politics. Whatever the reason, one thing is clear (and since the bug tracker is now viewable by anyone, it's easy to check), no commit has been done in nearly 2 weeks now. Waiting for the developers to "want to work on the project again" is madness. There are 4 devs, and they're all MIA right now.

Therefore, I would like Amacythe to publicly explain why she acted this way, and whether she considers she's doing it for the good of the project. I expect the situation has calmed down so it shouldn't create another full-scale war, instead it can only help the community to bring the debate to a public place, if only by notifying them of any progress being made. Because, believe me, I've seen worse team fights than this one, but I've never seen "negociations" drag on for weeks. At this rate, SMF2 isn't going to be ready for its planned release date (October 2017).

QuoteJust like terrorism against Western society won't stop even if OBL is captured because there is a huge underlying problem, problems in the project won't go away if Amacythe is kicked out and torn up in the public eye.
The only problem the team has acknowledged so far is that Amacythe doesn't want to project to move on. I'm all hears if there are other issues. Anything that could make me think it's not only due to an egotistical behavior, which the community is currently led to believe.

Basically, what's a community project if one person has power over it all?

QuoteWhen people stop taking cheap shots at an easy target and let the negotiators handle their work. So, basically, not anytime soon given the way this topic has gone.
I don't see why the community's concern could slow down internal negotiations.

QuoteSMF the software shouldn't be affected with these ongoing issues (other than to perhaps demotivate and distract the developers).
See above.

Big +1 :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 03, 2010, 09:03:19 AM
Honestly us users just want SMF to continue with the full team, or any faction.

So what you need to do is simple.

1. First try negotiations but give yourself a time-line. If the full team does not agree to something before the time line is over then see the next step.
2. If negotiations fail within the set time (1-2 months), then take your drama to a court for gods sake. Don't whine about it here or scare your users to death. It's hard or impossible to import your forums to other forum software you know! Many of us do not have mom and pop forums, we have real forums. Let the court rule on the subject of who has rights to control SMF and be done with it.

Courts are there to handle drama. Start being more professional and get to work please.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on February 03, 2010, 09:27:32 AM
ForumGuy789> SMF is technically owned by Amacythe, that's what a court will say. They won't care for the community or the SMF core values, they will care for the law. They can't prevent her from using her assets as she likes (and as we dislike), even if the original owner complains, even if the entire community of SMF developers and helpers complains. If she wants to kill SMF she can, that's the bottom line. I hope she won't, but I guess she can.

Quote from: Rowdy on February 03, 2010, 08:49:50 AM
hitler absolutely did believe he was doing good. What is sad is that collectivism is on the rise again, despite the lessons of history. Beware of anyone preaching sacrifice as an end in itself, like hitler.
I don't think anyone with far-right affinities belongs in a conversation about Hitler.

Orstio,
Paranoia is a bad thing indeed and it's even worse when it's about a community leader. If she talked to the community, it would open up a chance of fixing these issues. So far, it looks to me like she has been defying us all and it's looking bad.
I only have one comment for her, which I'm going to borrow verbatim from someone else (I hope that someone else won't mind.)

« You have every right to have the feelings that you do.  But there are times when you must put your own feelings aside and react in a professional manner.  Your comments reflect on SMF and our entire team if we do nothing when you violate our rules and core values.  What's fair for one should be fair for all. »

By the way, guess who wrote that?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Dannii on February 03, 2010, 10:34:51 AM
Quote from: K Larkin on February 03, 2010, 06:37:46 AM
My first post here. First I want to thank and congratulate everyone responsible for this lovely SMF forum software.

Then *Sigh*.  I had just decided not to migrate my new forum to Vbulletin because of the change of ownership and the nightmares with Vb4.  I did a comparison of all the forums and SMF came out top of my list.
I am very sad to find a big shadow hanging over the future of SMF and I hope that a resolution can come out of it quickly.

The first thing I read when I went into the site is "why SMF is not Open Source" - if I understand right, it is because some people took the work of SMF, repackaged it and sold it or represented it as their own - this is the nature of Open Source.
They did so by removing the credits and original copyright statements - that is against all definitions of free and open source software.

But, that was like 7 years ago. It is well past the time to move on.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ardd on February 03, 2010, 12:22:35 PM
Quote from: Rowdy on February 03, 2010, 10:18:29 AM
Such a friendly site. If you look above, it was nao who made it personal:

QuoteI don't think anyone with far-right affinities belongs in a conversation about Hitler.

and someone else previously that brought up hitler. I was merely the third or fourth person to mention it in relation to this topic when nao took a swipe at me, again. :)

And, beck is way too far to the left for my taste. :)

You need to take the C&P politics to another thread "I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Don't push Randian philosophy here John Galt there's no profit motive lurking in the corner. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tony Reid on February 03, 2010, 12:46:30 PM
I was going to stay out of this thread..... but I have to say that comparing Amacythe with Hitler is quite frankly disgusting and immature.

Yes - a lot of us believe that the project management of SMF(not just Amy) needs to change completely and a number of us feel Amy needs to step down, but personal attacks and comments like that are just not on.

Its how the management are going forward with SMF that needs to be questioned.

Please leave abusive comparisons about Amy out of this.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: LiroyvH on February 03, 2010, 12:48:08 PM
Quote from: Tony on February 03, 2010, 12:46:30 PM
I was going to stay out of this thread..... but I have to say that comparing Amacythe with Hitler is quite frankly disgusting and immature.

Yes - a lot of us believe that the project management of SMF(not just Amy) needs to change completely and a number of us feel Amy needs to step down, but personal attacks and comments like that are just not on.

Its how the management are going forward with SMF that needs to be questioned.

Please leave abusive comparisons about Amy out of this.

+1, personal attacks or odd comparisons to anyone should be left out of this.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 03, 2010, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Tony on February 03, 2010, 12:46:30 PM
I was going to stay out of this thread..... but I have to say that comparing Amacythe with Hitler is quite frankly disgusting and immature.
This I don't believe was even meant to be the comparison, but someone just lead the topic off the rails and it ended up being about Hitler... ::)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tony Reid on February 03, 2010, 01:03:07 PM
Where is Gri when you need him.

::)

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: SN on February 03, 2010, 01:12:52 PM
Quote from: Tony on February 03, 2010, 12:46:30 PM
I was going to stay out of this thread..... but I have to say that comparing Amacythe with Hitler is quite frankly disgusting and immature.

Yes - a lot of us believe that the project management of SMF(not just Amy) needs to change completely and a number of us feel Amy needs to step down, but personal attacks and comments like that are just not on.

Its how the management are going forward with SMF that needs to be questioned.

Please leave abusive comparisons about Amy out of this.

This is exactly what happens when you make matters like this public. You get 100's of opinions coming from all angles, which will eventually get out of control.

This is why this whole episode should have been kept behind closed doors and dealt with internally. Otherwise you can do more harm than good...If not to the project itself, but to peoples feelings and ultimately damage SMF more.

Lets be honest here, only a select few know the FULL story and they know who they are. If you don't know the full story you should be all hoping for the best.

I personally would lock this thread before it gets out of hand
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 03, 2010, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: SN on February 03, 2010, 01:12:52 PM
Lets be honest here, only a select few know the FULL story and they know who they are. If you don't know the full story you should be all hoping for the best.
The whole team knows the full story, most of the friends know the full story, and pretty much everyone who read this topic through knows most of the story.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tony Reid on February 03, 2010, 01:19:41 PM
And SN, its best not to mention closed doors - as that's kind of a sore subject.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Amanda. on February 03, 2010, 01:20:00 PM
The woman everyone is talking about, does she really even exist?
Seriously, I'm a relatively new convert to SMF and I'm loving the software, and up until the recent events occurred I was also loving the whole community and support given.
Someone said in one of the posts here that Amacythe 'doesn't post on public boards', which is a concern because a short post from her assuring everyone that she has the best interests of the project and users in mind and will endeavour to sort this mess out ... well it would make a huge difference and probably come as a relief to many.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: SN on February 03, 2010, 01:22:20 PM
Quote from: LexArma on February 03, 2010, 01:15:17 PM
Quote from: SN on February 03, 2010, 01:12:52 PM
Lets be honest here, only a select few know the FULL story and they know who they are. If you don't know the full story you should be all hoping for the best.
The whole team knows the full story, most of the friends know the full story, and pretty much everyone who read this topic through knows most of the story.

And compare that to the amount of views and replies this thread has had...then like i said, its still only a select Few, be it 30 or 40+
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tony Reid on February 03, 2010, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: Amanda. on February 03, 2010, 01:20:00 PM
The woman everyone is talking about, does she really even exist?
Seriously, I'm a relatively new convert to SMF and I'm loving the software, and up until the recent events occurred I was also loving the whole community and support given.
Someone said in one of the posts here that Amacythe 'doesn't post on public boards', which is a concern because a short post from her assuring everyone that she has the best interests of the project and users in mind and will endeavour to sort this mess out ... well it would make a huge difference and probably come as a relief to many.



Amy does exist and posts mostly in the Team boards and has input on the PR posts you see coming from the team.


Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: SN on February 03, 2010, 01:33:44 PM
The impression i get from some of you in this thread, is like you do not want SMF to survive as long as Amy is in-charge

IMO that is the wrong attitude.

Whether Amy is in-charge or not, we should all be willing to compromise to keep SMF alive
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 01:36:25 PM
I have deleted the seriously off-topic comments, especially those related to the politics of Hitler, and other personal issues.

Yell censorship if you want... but that's not what this thread is for.

Amy is not Hitler... and I do not think anyone is comparing her directly to Hitler... Godwin's law declared that it must be brought up though... Amy is the current manager of Simple Machines LLC, that is all. Recent issues included, her goal is to run the LLC and improve the product. The arguments regarding the recent issues have not been about motivations, but about methods of implementation.

Also, to respond to a bunch who have obviously not read the whole thread

1- This post was made to address issues which had alreayd been made public. if you had not seen or been aware of them... well and good, you can continue to ignore this thread and the contents there-in.
2- SMF is not dead and is not dying. We will continue despite any interpersonal or other internal issues.  This project is bigger than any one person.
3- For those of you commenting on "keep this behind closed doors". Actually, we are endeavoring to do the opposite. Our goal is (going forward) to keep the community informed and involved. Especially when... see #1 above.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 03, 2010, 01:49:00 PM
Quote from: SN on February 03, 2010, 01:33:44 PM
The impression i get from some of you in this thread, is like you do not want SMF to survive as long as Amy is in-charge

Then you have the wrong impression.

We all want SMF to survive.  But it will not survive as long as Amy is in charge.  It will continue to stagnate and become vaporware, as it has gone in that direction for the past few years.

The first step to changing that is her removal.

Quote from: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 01:36:25 PM
I have deleted the seriously off-topic comments, especially those related to the politics of Hitler, and other personal issues.

Yell censorship if you want... but that's not what this thread is for.

Amy is not Hitler... and I do not think anyone is comparing her directly to Hitler... Godwin's law declared that it must be brought up though... Amy is the current manager of Simple Machines LLC, that is all. Recent issues included, her goal is to run the LLC and improve the product. The arguments regarding the recent issues have not been about motivations, but about methods of implementation.

Also, to respond to a bunch who have obviously not read the whole thread

1- This post was made to address issues which had alreayd been made public. if you had not seen or been aware of them... well and good, you can continue to ignore this thread and the contents there-in.
2- SMF is not dead and is not dying. We will continue despite any interpersonal or other internal issues.  This project is bigger than any one person.
3- For those of you commenting on "keep this behind closed doors". Actually, we are endeavoring to do the opposite. Our goal is (going forward) to keep the community informed and involved. Especially when... see #1 above.


Just wanted to point out here that when I invoked Godwin's Law, I was not comparing Amy to Hitler.  I was comparing Motoko-chan's logic to the logic of a Hitler-sympathizer.  It was a comparison of logic, not a comparison of persons.

CENSORSHIP!!! (J/K :P )
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Cccddd on February 03, 2010, 01:54:26 PM
Quote from: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 01:36:25 PM
I have deleted the seriously off-topic comments, especially those related to the politics of Hitler, and other personal issues.

Yell censorship if you want... but that's not what this thread is for.

Amy is not Hitler... and I do not think anyone is comparing her directly to Hitler... Godwin's law declared that it must be brought up though... Amy is the current manager of Simple Machines LLC, that is all. Recent issues included, her goal is to run the LLC and improve the product. The arguments regarding the recent issues have not been about motivations, but about methods of implementation.

Also, to respond to a bunch who have obviously not read the whole thread

1- This post was made to address issues which had alreayd been made public. if you had not seen or been aware of them... well and good, you can continue to ignore this thread and the contents there-in.
2- SMF is not dead and is not dying. We will continue despite any interpersonal or other internal issues.  This project is bigger than any one person.
3- For those of you commenting on "keep this behind closed doors". Actually, we are endeavoring to do the opposite. Our goal is (going forward) to keep the community informed and involved. Especially when... see #1 above.


Holy ******, someone who's in charge! But I thought only Amacythe was in charge?! ;)

I think it's hilarious that people keep harping on about Amacythe being the only person in control when she's only got the name on the paper, same as it's been for years.

She isn't holding up SMF. Devs sifting through pages of b/s in and amongst their real lives is probably holding up the project more than anything.

It's almost pathetic to wear this "Friends" badge now, not because of the SMF team, but because of the disgraceful way so many of the other friends have been acting.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 03, 2010, 02:15:28 PM
Quote from: Jim Yarbro on February 03, 2010, 01:54:26 PM
Holy ******, someone who's in charge! But I thought only Amacythe was in charge?! ;)

Why doesn't it surprise me that you can't tell the difference between moderation control on this forum, and control over the project?  (I apologize to those who haven't seen this person's mistaking this particular forum for the entire project in more private boards.)

QuoteI think it's hilarious that people keep harping on about Amacythe being the only person in control when she's only got the name on the paper, same as it's been for years.

Same as it's been for years, yes.  Just like all the bugs in SMF 2.0.  Same as it's been for years.  Just like the failed SMF license.  Same as it's been for years.  Just like people thinking that team members are just like employees.  Same as it's been for years.

The world changes over time.  Leaving things the way they've been for years is a sure way to fail. 

QuoteShe isn't holding up SMF. Devs sifting through pages of b/s in and amongst their real lives is probably holding up the project more than anything.

So, who's job is it to make sure the devs stay focused on their goals instead of sifting through pages of b/s?

QuoteIt's almost pathetic to wear this "Friends" badge now, not because of the SMF team, but because of the disgraceful way so many of the other friends have been acting.

You can always request its removal.  You wouldn't be the first.  Probably not the last either.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Cccddd on February 03, 2010, 02:38:47 PM
You wonder why nobody with any weight around here responds? It's because you do nothing more than pick apart everything and spin it around.

Your reasons for being involved in these conversations make about as much sense as mine do, and you're not accomplishing anything but making yourself look ridiculous, and scaring off people from a product you claim to care about just because you have personal beef with the people that run the place.

Pathetic and silly.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 03, 2010, 02:46:16 PM
Well, now I am rooting for a split and another option beyond SMF (and phpbb). I'll make sure to spread the word- the software is stagnant, community is in disarray, and the attitude hostile. :(
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Fi.Muslim on February 03, 2010, 02:51:46 PM
noooo...."my e-Honor", "my e-Honor".. :o

I just want a SMF 2.0,
so pls someone open a new project in sourgeforge or something, to get it done.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 03, 2010, 02:52:18 PM
Quote from: Jim Yarbro on February 03, 2010, 02:38:47 PM
You wonder why nobody with any weight around here responds? It's because you do nothing more than pick apart everything and spin it around.

Your reasons for being involved in these conversations make about as much sense as mine do, and you're not accomplishing anything but making yourself look ridiculous, and scaring off people from a product you claim to care about just because you have personal beef with the people that run the place.

Pathetic and silly.

Like you, I have nothing to lose by calling people out on their crap.  I don't really care if I look ridiculous here.  If the project fails because of my pathetic and silly posts, then it's not even as significant as my pathetic and silly posts, is it?

I have no personal beef with any team members, including Amy.  As I've said elsewhere, people who don't know her as a person should not be commenting on her person.  That's just wrong, and I'll be the first to call them out on it.  Whether or not any of the team members have any personal beef with me is undoubtable.  But, I have no grudge against any one of them as a person.  They're all good people with good intentions.

So, your entire last sentence is filled with the same kind of b/s you keep complaining about. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Night09 on February 03, 2010, 02:56:16 PM
You are all pathetic atm with the petty whining then the so called 'official' posts that basically tell us the users jack ******.

Amecythe please respond with some real truthfull answers even if they do hurt a bit and at least settle the page after page of chinese whispers that is developing and seems to be growing at its own pace before irreparable damage is done to what should be a top class project.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: tfs on February 03, 2010, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Nao on February 03, 2010, 09:27:32 AM
I don't think anyone with far-right affinities belongs in a conversation about Hitler.

The terms "Right Wing" and "Left Wing" are fundamentally flawed. (http://www.sovereignlife.com/essays/07-06-04.html)  From where I stand, most would call me right wing, and yet Hitler was infinitely "left" of me.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 03, 2010, 04:13:16 PM
Frankly I don't think any mention of Hitler is appropriate for this thread. ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nick Whetstone on February 03, 2010, 04:37:20 PM
[opinion]Regardless of affiliation toward either side of the debate, name-calling and attacking hurts your side. It also fuels the other side of the argument, giving them things to point out or hold against you. So, really, any name-calling hurts your side more than the other.[/opinion]
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: DerEineDa on February 03, 2010, 05:00:38 PM
Just my opinion: I think it's strange to discuss these problems in the public - even announce this on the front page - without telling people what this is all about. I am a long time user of SMF, I've read almost the entire thread and I still not know what you are talking about.

If you make your problems official then you should at least summarize these problems for the people not involved.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Owdy on February 03, 2010, 05:13:51 PM
Quote from: DerEineDa on February 03, 2010, 05:00:38 PM
Just my opinion: I think it's strange to discuss these problems in the public - even announce this on the front page - without telling people what this is all about. I am a long time user of SMF, I've read almost the entire thread and I still not know what you are talking about.

If you make your problems official then you should at least summarize these problems for the people not involved.
I would do that, but last time i just posted a link to blog what explains everytning, i got banned from here. Posting a link to SMF Co-founders blog is not allowed in here.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: DerEineDa on February 03, 2010, 05:18:01 PM
Quote from: Owdy on February 03, 2010, 05:13:51 PM
I would do that, but last time i just posted a link to blog what explains everytning, i got banned from here. Posting a link to SMF Co-founders blog is not allowed in here.

Thank you, this was hint enough. And the fact that these kind of posts get removed and the members get banned is showing the problems just fine.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
Do none of you even bother to read the thread before responding?


Jim, Anyone with any weight responding:   I have done so, a few times now. Please stop trolling, or I will put you on moderation.
Rowdy, stop trolling, the SMF software is not stagnant and not dead.
nightbre and DerEineDa, I (and a few others) have described the situation.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tristan Perry on February 03, 2010, 06:01:32 PM
Quote from: SN on February 03, 2010, 01:33:44 PM
The impression i get from some of you in this thread, is like you do not want SMF to survive as long as Amy is in-charge

IMO that is the wrong attitude.

Whether Amy is in-charge or not, we should all be willing to compromise to keep SMF alive
Amy is ('arguably') the person who *caused* this entire mess.

*Loads* of people care about SMF, although Amy (et al?) is making it hard for these people to contribute.

That's not their fault.

I've been around since pre-SMF days (my original forum was YabbSE and I converted it to SMF when it came out... my MySQL tables are still prefixed with yabbse_ etc), and I love SMF.

Although from the sounds of it there are major and real problems which can not and will not be fixed until Amy et al step down.

This is my opinion, and I'm not trolling (as I say, I've been around since pre-SMF days; I love SMF and only want what's best for SMF).

I edited out the "ban" comment; apologies for that

Quote from: DerEineDa on February 03, 2010, 05:18:01 PM
Quote from: Owdy on February 03, 2010, 05:13:51 PM
I would do that, but last time i just posted a link to blog what explains everytning, i got banned from here. Posting a link to SMF Co-founders blog is not allowed in here.

Thank you, this was hint enough. And the fact that these kind of posts get removed and the members get banned is showing the problems just fine.

This fully indepnedent post contains links to all you need to know :)

http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70479
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 06:07:27 PM
Now, see, Tristan, that sort of comment is what encourages rumors.

You are not going to get banned for disagreeing. The previous bans of the friends were an emotional response and an admitted (and since rectified) mistake. In addition, the bans were not for "disagreeing with management."

And, no, your post was not trolling, but please be careful of the personal references... people who have no idea keep throwing Amy's name around... and this situation is goes much deeper than a disagreement with Amy (or any one person).

Once again, the reason for this post (and for the discussions with the friends) is to sort out some stuff which has recently come to a head. The issues which spawned the event are long standing and are also being addressed.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tristan Perry on February 03, 2010, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 06:07:27 PM
Now, see, Tristan, that sort of comment is what encourages rumors.

You are not going to get banned for disagreeing. The previous bans of the friends were an emotional response and an admitted (and since rectified) mistake. In addition, the bans were not for "disagreeing with management."

And, no, your post was not trolling, but please be careful of the personal references... people who have no idea keep throwing Amy's name around... and this situation is goes much deeper than a disagreement with Amy (or any one person).

Once again, the reason for this post (and for the discussions with the friends) is to sort out some stuff which has recently come to a head. The issues which spawned the event are long standing and are also being addressed.

My apologies if any of my comments truly weren't fact/were rumour-mongering, although from what I've seen/read from multiple sources I thought it was fact. As I say, apologies if any wasn't :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: DerEineDa on February 03, 2010, 06:17:55 PM
Quote from: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
Do none of you even bother to read the thread before responding?


Jim, Anyone with any weight responding:   I have done so, a few times now. Please stop trolling, or I will put you on moderation.
Rowdy, stop trolling, the SMF software is not stagnant and not dead.
nightbre and DerEineDa, I (and a few others) have described the situation.


Well, maybe I wouldn't have to read the whole thread, especially the rather confusing first few pages, if you would have explained the story in your first post.

Well, now I am enlightened. As a developer/programmer myself, I think this story is really interesting and something you can learn from. I can imagine how the (former) developers feel about all this, because I know how it feels when you put your passion into a project. It kind of becomes a part of you.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 03, 2010, 06:20:28 PM
I have tried to keep my mouth shut, especially on this site (not so much on others). But it's becoming very difficult.

Quote from: Nao on February 03, 2010, 09:27:32 AM
ForumGuy789> SMF is technically owned by Amacythe, that's what a court will say. They won't care for the community or the SMF core values, they will care for the law. They can't prevent her from using her assets as she likes (and as we dislike), even if the original owner complains, even if the entire community of SMF developers and helpers complains.

Since someone else finally brought up the money issue that so many others have silently tiptoed around, I will consider it fair game.

I will try to reserve comments about character, or personal attacks. I will refrain from trying to spread opinion or secondhand information as fact. I do, however, have some questions I'd like clarified:

1) Is it true or not true that a person with the legal authority and right to do so requested the financial records from Amy regarding how SMF funds have been spent? That this person is entitled to them upon request and that by the laws of an LLC, Amy is required to produce them for this person?

2) If #1 is true, did Amy honor this request?

3) If the answer to #2 is "no", the implications are serious. How does this fit into things going forward?

I ask in the interest of clarifying a bunch of issues, perhaps putting rumors to rest and to continue to help "sort out" the stuff that has "come to a head". Thanks
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on February 03, 2010, 06:30:41 PM
I really hope (like all) that this situation get solved asap!
We all love SMF and don't want it to die!

I think that the most important thing, now, is that Amy comes here to post her explanations!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: 青山 素子 on February 03, 2010, 06:32:28 PM
Quote from: sremick on February 03, 2010, 06:20:28 PM
1) Is it true or not true that a person with the legal authority and right to do so requested the financial records from Amy regarding how SMF funds have been spent? That this person is entitled to them upon request and that by the laws of an LLC, Amy is required to produce them for this person?

I asked her directly a few weeks ago, and she said that no request was made. Now, she could have been telling me something false, but what does she have to gain from doing that to me?

Other than random people stating the above, I have yet to see the unnamed person verify this rumor.


Quote from: sremick on February 03, 2010, 06:20:28 PM
2) If #1 is true, did Amy honor this request?

N/A


Quote from: sremick on February 03, 2010, 06:20:28 PM
3) If the answer to #2 is "no", the implications are serious. How does this fit into things going forward?

N/A


Quote from: MultiformeIngegno on February 03, 2010, 06:30:41 PM
I think that the most important thing, now, is that Amy comes here to post her explanations!

Given the public beating she's been given when not posting here, I don't think it's going to happen.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 03, 2010, 08:02:20 PM
It was not an unnamed person, as you should be well aware since I was directly replying to a post of yours at the Friends site the last time we spoke of this. It was also less than a few weeks ago. You had obviously missed the post where the books were requested by one of the LLC members and I wasn't digging it up to save you or Amy the bother. If she wants to ignore such requests that is her problem.

So a/ it is not an unnamed person since I already told you Jack was the one who requested the books be handed over and b/ it is not a rumour. Nice try though.

And we both know Amy would not reply here beating or no beating. She doesn't work that way. ;)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Night09 on February 03, 2010, 08:12:15 PM
Quote from: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
Do none of you even bother to read the thread before responding?


Jim, Anyone with any weight responding:   I have done so, a few times now. Please stop trolling, or I will put you on moderation.
Rowdy, stop trolling, the SMF software is not stagnant and not dead.
nightbre and DerEineDa, I (and a few others) have described the situation.


I did see all 11 pages before I posted and dont think my post was out of order either since it simply asked for a straight answer from the supposed head of smf.I am not going to add to this because its pointless anyway.gl sorting it out soon we hope.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 03, 2010, 08:51:46 PM
All I can think of when reading this read is "unprofessional amateurs".
There's nothing to be gained from a thread like this.. it just makes you all look pretty bad.
I don't care if you're open source or not; at a certain point of popularity you really should conduct yourself like a real business and like real professionals.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Dejv on February 03, 2010, 09:00:23 PM
First of all, thanks for sharing this with us and for explanations.

The project itself is not only about the project but its also about the people involved in it, the community, the most important part without which it wouldnt exist.

I would be for elections, but only if all sides could vote.

Many thanks to all developing, promoting or helping in any other way. I hope this gets sorted out.

You wanna see a dead software? ... http://www.mkportal.it :(

I hope this topic doesnt get closed like the one before...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: gisfreak on February 03, 2010, 09:40:36 PM
Quote from: Dejv on February 03, 2010, 09:00:23 PM
You wanna see a dead software? ... http://www.mkportal.it :(
I hope this topic doesnt get closed like the one before...

i keep on dreaming bout this, and it makes me so scared  :'( :(
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
Quote from: nightbre on February 03, 2010, 02:56:16 PM
You are all pathetic atm with the petty whining then the so called 'official' posts that basically tell us the users jack ******.

Amecythe please respond with some real truthfull answers even if they do hurt a bit and at least settle the page after page of chinese whispers that is developing and seems to be growing at its own pace before irreparable damage is done to what should be a top class project.

Because someone actually asked...


For the past few months, many past team members (SMF Friends) have been returning to offer advice regarding our project.  There had been ongoing discussions about our business structure as well as our team structure.  These discussions were very informative and helpful; however, some of those past team members who returned have expectations of making the decisions regarding the future of a project they left behind.  (Some of them left recently but others left over three years ago.) ... and while their advice was (and still is being) considered their demands were not met and many became disgruntled.

That disgruntlement became openly abusive aggression and the aggression then turned into childish attacks.

The Staff of SMF chose to ignore the immature actions until such time as it was no longer wise to allow these actions to continue.  The negative comments and childish attacks started to hinder the forward motion of the project.  The morale of our active team members was slowly being stripped away one post at a time.  Some team members left over the hostility and a great many others, including all of our developers, were about to leave if something drastic hadn't been done. 

Without developers, we would have no future, so the majority of the Developers and Management discussed what drastic action should be taken.  A few of the team members had made the suggestion that we should fire and ban the entire team.  The decision made by the majority of Devs and Management was that the best course of action would be to force all Team Members to sign an agreement stating that they would not be party to the ongoing hostilities and would respect the project's Core Values rather than ban them.  This left the decision up to the members to sign and continue.  Sadly, some of our Team Members refused to sign the agreement and we were forced to remove them from the team.  Some went gracefully, but the majority chose to become aggressively vengeful.  Regretfully, as a result, some of them along with some of members of the community were banned for posting negative propaganda.

I convinced the admin responsible for those bans to lift them, but not until a considerable amount of damage was done to both SMF and to my own reputation.

Many of the past team members have started a great deal of negative propaganda against SMF and the management for taking the above actions.  Most of those who remain on the team are in agreement that the move was needed and while it is regretful to see so many leave our project, we have faith in our remaining team to move forward and continue doing what they do best.

Some people have been so swayed by the negative propaganda that they have become spiteful and in retaliation have removed themes and mods from our site.  I am very disappointed by this childish and spiteful act.  One of the SMF Team Members has gone so far as to purchase (as in paid real money for) some of the mods from those who originally authored them so those mods would still be available free to the community.

To counter some of the claims that have been posted and to toot my own horn a little, I submit the following:


While I can't take credit for all of the following list, (Projects I was involved in are marked with an asterisk* and projects I headed up are marked with two **) I thought others may like to see what has been accomplished since I joined the team in Dec 2004.  The list includes but is not limited to:

I would like to reassure all SMF users that there is no intention of shutting down the SMF project or making it a paid software.  While SMF is currently attempting to heal from the wounds of the ongoing battle, I am still optimistic about a great future.

I apologize to everyone for not informing you sooner of the ongoing strife, but felt it would be inappropriate to point out the childish behavior of our past team members.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Foreclosurepedia on February 03, 2010, 10:14:53 PM
I have read thru all this and can't decipher much out of the muck other than this first should have been resolved behind closed doors and then published.  I do have several rather pointed questions and if they can't be answered here I need someone to tell me where to send them.

1)  Is the use of ya'lls software ALWAYS going to be free?  This is CRITICAL as I need to pull my site and recommend to my friends to do the same NOW so as not to get screwed in a political drama; this whole thing smells of the Beltway (a US term).

2)  Are ya'll gonna issue a Whitepaper of some kind for us lowly end users? 

Here's the deal:  Ya'll got all these secrets going back and forth and you can't discuss this or post that.  That's well and good.  And had this never been brought forward no big deal, but you can't unring the bell.  So, whoever it is that calls the shots needs to man or woman up and step to the plate and explain a) what's going on; b) what the best/worst case scenarios are; and c) what the timeframe is for this mess.  Look, had ya'll told me this kind of irresponsiblity was coming down the pike I NEVER would have installed this forum, but now I am saddled with it and have a vested interest.  I could care less who Amy is, who the DEVs are or any of the internal politics.  What I DO care about is the viability of my site. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 03, 2010, 10:19:07 PM
Yes. SMF will always be free software.

and as I have said before: SMF is larger than any one person...  SMF will continue to be developed.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tyrsson on February 03, 2010, 10:21:48 PM
Quote1)  Is the use of ya'lls software ALWAYS going to be free?
Answer: YES, without a doubt.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Foreclosurepedia on February 03, 2010, 10:28:58 PM
All I needed, thanx for the QUICK response as well.  I don't know about the others, but I like it simple and you have made it that way for me.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:31:59 PM
QuoteI would like to reassure all SMF users that there is no intention of shutting down the SMF project or making it a paid software.

Sorry, maybe that line wasn't clear enough...

SMF will remain free as long as I have any say about it.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: forsakenlad on February 03, 2010, 10:42:39 PM
I know that Amy will probably be ignoring this post as she usually does but I'm posting this in the slightest hope that she doesn't since I was elected to converse with the SMF Team afterall. Also since the veil of confidentiality has been lifted by her post, I feel obliged to reply to her post in the same way.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
For the past few months, many past team members (SMF Friends) have been returning to offer advice regarding our project.  There had been ongoing discussions about our business structure as well as our team structure.  These discussions were very informative and helpful; however, some of those past team members who returned have expectations of making the decisions regarding the future of a project they left behind.  (Some of them left recently but others left over three years ago.) ... and while their advice was (and still is being) considered their demands were not met and many became disgruntled.

That is incorrect and false information. The team was struggling on all sides, both development and management wise and a lot of the SMF Friends (including its founders and valuable contribitors) decided to help in saving their child. Because of the anarchy created by a lot of people talking. A restructuring committee was elected (by the team itself) including Jeff Lewis, a co-founder of SMF by the team to go along with the process.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
That disgruntlement became openly abusive aggression and the aggression then turned into childish attacks.

I will admit there were attacks but not only by the past team members but by the present ones as well.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
The Staff of SMF chose to ignore the immature actions until such time as it was no longer wise to allow these actions to continue.  The negative comments and childish attacks started to hinder the forward motion of the project.  The morale of our active team members was slowly being stripped away one post at a time.  Some team members left over the hostility and a great many others, including all of our developers, were about to leave if something drastic hadn't been done. 

This is a very sad comment as it explains that Amy only sees part of the team as the so called "staff" I was a team member when this happened and we were electing a new project manager to oversee the whole transition process but that vote was interrupted by a select group of people and even an LLC partner and a lot of team leaders weren't notified about the coup d'etat.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
Without developers, we would have no future, so the majority of the Developers and Management discussed what drastic action should be taken.  A few of the team members had made the suggestion that we should fire and ban the entire team.  The decision made by the majority of Devs and Management was that the best course of action would be to force all Team Members to sign an agreement stating that they would not be party to the ongoing hostilities and would respect the project's Core Values rather than ban them.  This left the decision up to the members to sign and continue.  Sadly, some of our Team Members refused to sign the agreement and we were forced to remove them from the team.  Some went gracefully, but the majority chose to become aggressively vengeful.  Regretfully, as a result, some of them along with some of members of the community were banned for posting negative propaganda.

The agreement was in violation of the Core Values itself while preaching about equal rights and democracy, it also banned any kind of political talk without offering a healthy election system. Not even saying that the team agreement was forced on by a select group not by the whole team, not even the leadership team.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
I convinced the admin responsible for those bans to lift them, but not until a considerable amount of damage was done to both SMF and to my own reputation.

The blog post she is referring to contains pure truth and I swear on it for what it counts. Also, I wasn't approached by Amy when my ban was lifted but instead by someone else which makes the truthfulness of the above comment doubtful again.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
Many of the past team members have started a great deal of negative propaganda against SMF and the management for taking the above actions.  Most of those who remain on the team are in agreement that the move was needed and while it is regretful to see so many leave our project, we have faith in our remaining team to move forward and continue doing what they do best.

We haven't been doing negative propaganda against SMF, only the management. People keep forgetting why we are making a big fuss about, the reason is because we love it, would you spend 6 hours a day on a thing you don't care about? Geez.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
Some people have been so swayed by the negative propaganda that they have become spiteful and in retaliation have removed themes and mods from our site.  I am very disappointed by this childish and spiteful act.  One of the SMF Team Members has gone so far as to purchase (as in paid real money for) some of the mods from those who originally authored them so those mods would still be available free to the community.

Well he hasn't done it only for that but also out of concern for financial gain over the mods he purchased as well.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
My total time investment on the SMF forum alone is over 334 days 4 hours and over 5 days 7 hours on our Online Manual.  (This is not including the time creating the Online Manual on another site or moving each existing post from our old wiki system to that new site.  Also not included is the time invested to balance the books, handle incoming email, dealing with the accountant, the IRS, trips to the post office, organizing trade shows and other get togethers.)

I don't think that is even a fraction of a contribution to those who have created SMF from nothing

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
akabugeyes has never asked me to see the books, therefore I have never told him no let alone refused repeatedly.  If he had asked, I would have granted his wish.

Well its your legal obligation to keep the LLC members updated, not the other way around.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
I have never abused the SMF funds for personal gain.  I never even borrowed a dime from the money in the SMF account.  But while mentioning this, I'd also like to point out two little ironies... see attachments below and note the amount and date on the check.

Well that can only be proven if you go open with all the books, don't blame if I don't take your word for it ;)

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
I freely admit that I listened to the advice of our accountant suggesting that I take a salary to help reduce taxes.  That money is untouched in a private account (less the taxes that needed to be paid) and I have never even borrowed a dime of it.  After 18 months, I stopped taking that salary as it proved to be roughly equal in taxes and is truly a nightmare for bookkeeping.  I also want to state that it was never a secret... MANY people were aware of this.  If I really wanted to steal from the company, I surely would have kept it private.

WOW, admittance of tax evasion? I hope IRS isn't monitoring simplemachines.org :)

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
While I can't take credit for all of the following list, (Projects I was involved in are marked with an asterisk* and projects I headed up are marked with two **) I thought others may like to see what has been accomplished since I joined the team in Dec 2004.  The list includes but is not limited to:
  • Jan 2005 -- The birth of our Online Manual -- prior to becoming a Project Manager, I was the Doc Coordinator
  • Dec 2005 -- Shipped t-shirts to all team members (out of pocket for me) *
  • Mar 2006 -- Online Manual goes public *
  • Apr 2006 -- I became Project Manager although I had started doing the work June 2005
  • Apr 2006 -- 1.1 Beta 2 released
  • Jul 2006 -- Arranged the addition of a second dedicated server with our previous host. (Which was delayed by over six months due to the absence our previous PMs.) *
  • Jun 2006 -- 1.1 RC2 released
  • Oct 2006 -- Formation of an LLC to hold copyright and trademarks for the project **
  • Nov 2006 -- PowWow: Transfer of copyright from LM to SM LLC **
  • Dec 2006 -- 1.1 RC3 released
  • Dec 2006 -- Shipped t-shirts to all team members (out of pocket cost for me) **
  • Dec 2006 -- 1.1 Goes Gold
  • Mar 2007 -- 1.1.2 released
  • Jun 2007 -- 1.1.3 released
  • Aug 2007 -- Linux Expo **
  • Sep 2007 -- Purchase first two servers (built by dschwab9) and switch/power distribution unit *
  • Sep 2007 -- Move to a Data Center *
  • Sep 2007 -- 2.0 Beta 1 and 1.1.4 released
  • Oct 2007 -- Purchase database server *
  • Dec 2007 -- MotM:  Meeting of the Minds, a week long team get together in Arizona which 17 people total attended and had flights, hotels (some stayed in my home) and meals provided and each received a t-shirt **
  • Jan 2008 -- 2.0 Beta 2 released
  • Jan 2008 -- Purchase two additional servers *
  • Apr 2008 -- 2.0 Beta 3 released
  • Aug 2008 -- OSCON **
  • May 2008 -- 1.1.5 released
  • Sep 2008 -- Purchase of trademarks *
  • Sep 2008 -- 1.1.6 and 2.0 Beta 4 released
  • Nov 2008 -- 1.1.7 released
  • Jan 2009 -- Sent t-shirt and swag to all interested team members **
  • Feb 2009 -- 1.1.8 and 2.0 RC1 released
  • Feb 2009 -- CodeFest:  Where I opened my own home for a face to face meeting of our Devs.  Flights and food were paid for by SM LLC. **
  • Mar 2009 -- Purchase two additional servers *
  • Jun 2009 -- 1.1.9 and 2.0 RC1-1 released
  • Jul 2009 -- 1.1.10 and 2.0 RC1.2 released
  • Aug 2009 -- Purchase final two servers needed for full redundancy **
  • Nov 2009 -- 2.0 RC2 released
  • Nov 2009 -- Sent t-shirt and swag (including usb drive) to all interested team members **
  • Dec 2009 -- 1.1.11 released
  • Dec 2009 -- Sale and co-location agreement for three old servers **
  • Jan 2010 -- GotMe (This was intended to be a full team get together, but only a few had committed and had non-refundable flights purchased when the gathering was canceled.) **

It is funny how most of the people who were involved with you on those projects are all against you now.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
I would like to reassure all SMF users that there is no intention of shutting down the SMF project or making it a paid software.  While SMF is currently attempting to heal from the wounds of the ongoing battle, I am still optimistic about a great future.

Well if you had ever tried to make SMF paid software, I assure you that I would do anything humanly possible to stop it as well.


Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
I apologize to everyone for not informing you sooner of the ongoing strife, but felt it would be inappropriate to point out the childish behavior of our past team members.

Well way to go Amy :) Starting a dialogue with us and personally attacking us here? That is way to build bridges, also it is appearent there is total chaos on your side right now as each manager I talk to plays a different song nowadays.



Just one question: Why aren't you leaving the team? Do you think you are worth as much as all the people who would rejoin in the event you left?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: live627 on February 03, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
 I would also like to know why SMF 2 is taking so long to be developed.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Jade Elizabeth on February 03, 2010, 10:48:21 PM
The balance sheet is from 2006....It's almost 4 years old. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve?


Also, the salary WAS a secret from the team. Whether you took ANYTHING from it or not is irrelevant. This is a VOLUNTEER project, not a paid project :(.

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:31:59 PM
QuoteI would like to reassure all SMF users that there is no intention of shutting down the SMF project or making it a paid software.

Sorry, maybe that line wasn't clear enough...

SMF will remain free as long as I have any say about it.

You arent the only one who wont let it go paid ;).

Quote from: live627 on February 03, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
I would also like to know why SMF 2 is taking so long to be developed.

Probably because all the issues have chased the developers away. We lost anywhere up to 6 of them over the course of 2.0 that I know about :(.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on February 03, 2010, 11:04:28 PM
I find it completely inappropriate for Amacythe to sit here and accuse the Friends of attacks when she herself has been behind the personal attacks and destruction of various team members.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: metallica48423 on February 03, 2010, 11:04:51 PM
[Message removed by me, to be reposted later]
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ardd on February 03, 2010, 11:41:10 PM
QuoteThe decision made by the majority of Devs and Management was that the best course of action would be to force all Team Members to sign an agreement stating that they would not be party to the ongoing hostilities and would respect the project's Core Values rather than ban them.
You were trying to "force" volunteers to sign an oath of loyalty in an open participatory community project? Was this just a heat of the moment thing; what could you be thinking?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: jerm on February 03, 2010, 11:53:20 PM
I sold my mod, not out of childish acts but because I have zero faith in management. They have taken the project in a direction I don't want to be a part of. How is that childish? Only soo much bull crap I'll put up with before I leave.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: jerm on February 04, 2010, 12:19:43 AM
[unknown] : 190 days, 9 hours and 24 minutes.
Ben_S : 182 days, 12 hours and 22 minutes.
Orstio : 216 days, 18 hours and 24 minutes.
JayBachatero : 249 days, 17 hours and 10 minutes.
Thantos : 236 days, 17 hours and 21 minutes.
akabugeyes : 237d 3h 57m
Runic : 201d 19h 43m
metallica48423 : 194d 17h 53m
Gazmanafc : 242d 4h 3m
I'm not sure if should list more or not. I figured since you are throwing out numbers. I might as well throw out 5 years worth of time people have spent on the project that are no longer part of it. I'm sure if I went through the list I could probably find another 10 years easy.

Thank you. Good bye.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Cassiel on February 04, 2010, 12:30:16 AM
Honestly, this is turning into silly amounts of silly right now. So far i've just been hearing the same arguments from the same sides, the same sniping, and pretty much the same of everything. This is absolutely stagnant right now and it is going nowhere.

And this is what happens in a lot of two-sides arguments (or debates or whatever you want to call it). Both sides are at fault in their own ways, but neither one will admit fault because they think their side is the right one. I mean, not to attack either side here but this is just what i'm seeing. I'm also not trying to say that one side is more correct than the other, but i'm just saying that the way things could've played out was wrong on both sides which is why we are in this mess.

The way it seems to me is that since the entire Team is being pulled in all sorts of different directions and having to juggle way more responsibilities than ever previously thought of nothing is being done, or if it is it's just being done at a snail's pace. Honestly, the main focus of this should be getting this whole thing settled and done with so that everyone can get back to focusing on the software and the wonderful community support here. If you have a weight on you you don't keep walking with the weight on trying to make it to the finish lie, you take the weight off and run like hell.

And just another thing I wanted to point out: We need more smilies! A lot of the threads I use to read were filled with such happy conversations going on, and everything is light hearted. But now everything is with a much more serious tone, and smilies have been turned into "I mean my statement light-heartidly" instead of "I'm actually genuinely happy". It really makes me sad that such once happy people have gone all serious (and don't worry, I will refrain from making the "Why so serious" joke :P).

All of this squabbling is like a nasty parasite on SMF, and it needs to be dealt with ASAP. For the good of SMF and it's future. It's kind of hard to believe that everyone is on the same common ground for the support of the software here, yet we all can't band together and see it through like the days of old.

It's all been said before. People saying that this is too heated, we need to calm down and take a look at this, and offering their own input as to how it should go about being solved. But from the looks of things the voices of the basic community users are not being held. There has been no update on the peace talks, a lot of the users posting in this thread are afraid, and even though there has been an attempt on getting the community informed there hasn't really been much done besides an un-updated peace talk thread with a post from Amy after the week this has been up, and a announcement thread that some users have found vague.

It just seems that the users are being ignored while nothing is done.

And I know you guys care for this software. I care for it, and the Team Members both new and old probably care for it about 1000 times more than any user every could. I'm not trying to call anybody or any side out here. I am simply trying to call to light what I feel the situation is like right now to the basic users....or at least to me.

I am glad that Amy finally posted, it shows that at least something is done. But I for one would just want more advancement on trying to get everything settled. At least until this unfitting weight is freed from the shoulders of SMF, and it's community and staff and once again provide a wonderful and incredible experience that has members standing by it through the next thousand years....at the least. (Well, thats just a personal starting goal anyways. If the weather permits then i'm hoping to go for a least another three maybe even four thousand years.)

Best of luck to all endeavors, both big and small, to all sides of the issue,
-Cassiel :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: b4pjoe on February 04, 2010, 12:31:08 AM
WOW....as a complete outsider I guess it's safe to say the gloves have come off now. Sheesh, I had just made up my mind to stick with SMF for my site. I think I will start looking for other options again. It's hard to imagine these two sides ever coming to any type of agreement.

Cheers to all...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 04, 2010, 12:37:51 AM
Quote from: Eren Yaşarkurt on February 03, 2010, 10:42:39 PMJust one question: Why aren't you leaving the team? Do you think you are worth as much as all the people who would rejoin in the event you left?

This is a significant point. Regardless of what side someone is on in this, or personal feelings about a person's character, it's an indisputable fact that if Amy were to step down, the floodgates of healing would open and a massive majority of people who left would return. The process could begin, while at the moment there is a sense that we're at a statemate.

A community project such as SMF is more than one person, or a few. It is what the community makes it. And if 80-90% of that community wants a certain change, and the community is at risk of failing unless it happens, one might think that things should be done for the sake of the greater good and best-interests of the project.

I confess to not being on the "inside" of this and so not being privy to the inner discussions or the intimate goings-on that lead to all this. But what I do know is that on one side of this, you have an overwhelming number of highly-respected community members (including former founders, one leg of the LLC triad, tons of developers, mod writers, theme designers, past and present, on and on and on) who say one thing. And then you have the opposing stance, with an alternate version of the story, which has been notably silent until recently... with a post that raises many new questions. And I think I can count the number of people on this side on one hand. At least that I've noticed saying anything.

If this were an evenly-divided debate, an outsider would be wise to be careful what side he chose to believe. However, there is a peculiar and notable inbalance in the sheer number, and who, are on which side.

Quote from: Cassiel on February 04, 2010, 12:30:16 AMIf you have a weight on you you don't keep walking with the weight on trying to make it to the finish lie, you take the weight off and run like hell.

My perception is that people agree with you, the problem is that the "weight" you describe is perceived as a specific person.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Fustrate on February 04, 2010, 12:42:12 AM
I left the Simple Machines team for three reasons:

1. They were talking in Leadership (where I, a "leader", could see it!) about banning me along with the others who were banned. Instead of letting them force me out, I decided to leave on my own terms.

2. I didn't like the way the remaining team members were treating my friends, those who left and still cared enough to try to help SMF, and those who did not agree with the new team agreement and were effectively forced out.

3. I couldn't trust those who were left on the team to respect the rights of each other, former team members, and the community.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: metallica48423 on February 04, 2010, 12:56:07 AM
Well.

Considering that I can count no less than a dozen team members that left either because of Amacythe specifically or because of her influence on the management of the project...

Singlehandedly burning bridges while a diplomatic effort is underway?  Not exactly awe-inspiring management.

Lest we forget, it was not us that invited several people in to help restructure things and solve these exact problems only to be told that our opinions were no longer welcome.  I'm sorry, but that's exactly what was said -- with the sprinkles and candy removed.

If the team expected productive discussion, there should have been leadership and guidance of the issues from the team leadership to help form cohesive discussions.  There was none.  There was no complaints about the state of the discussions.  There was nobody saying "hey, we need to get our stuff together."

When someone puts a hand out and offers a helping hand after already being punched in the face, is accepted to help, and gets punched in the face again... well, what do you expect?  Do you expect people to just tuck their tails and run?

But I'm personally going to take the high road and not drag the community further into this mess.  At the end of the day, it is the community that suffers from poor management decisions.   Since the management no longer seems to desire an open dialogue and mature discussion, decided to openly mock a respectful and sincere letter addressed from NEARLY THIRTY former team members, the greatest majority whom had been involved actively or as a friend in the last year, have been going on every possible tangent to prevent people from presenting their opinions, banning longstanding former team members and charter members for placing a link in their signatures, and continue to allow the situation to continue, I fear for the future of the project.

I'm sorry to the community that has to endure this.  I honestly am. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nightwish on February 04, 2010, 01:00:45 AM
Quote from: Filipina on January 29, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
Having said that, I use to be a miserable failure settling disputes on my forum. The online world seems to push even decent folks into becoming very discourteous in a matter of seconds. We hide behind our key boards and feel a certain disconnect when it comes to others. I don't think it is intentional, but just the nature of online communications. At least that is what I experienced with my community forum.

You are spot on with your observations and there is a plain and simple theory supporting them. It is called GIFT (http://www.jewcy.com/daily_shvitz/yenta).

To sum it up - people are behaving differently in online communities and the 2 basic reasons are:

1) There is anonymity.
2) There is a (probably huge) audience

The combination of those 2 can lead even smart and usually calm people into behaving like totally careless idiots, an interesting and most likely psychological phenomenon.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Filipina on February 04, 2010, 01:22:47 AM
I know this seems to be getting worse by the minute and it kind of makes me sad. How can you negotiate better way forward with all this background noise?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Lugial on February 04, 2010, 01:35:33 AM
fight, fight, fight!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 04, 2010, 01:43:15 AM
Please let it be noted that I *AM* working toward resolution of this and a number of other issues. I have a voice with both the team and the friends groups and I am working with both to sort things out.

In addition, our representatives ARE talking.... i's just taking a little while since many of us actually have a life outside of the internet
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 01:44:08 AM
Just one question: Why aren't you leaving the team? Do you think you are worth as much as all the people who would rejoin in the event you left?



Amacythe, you QUIT from here and problem will be solved
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on February 04, 2010, 01:48:33 AM
Quote from: Filipina on February 04, 2010, 01:22:47 AM
I know this seems to be getting worse by the minute and it kind of makes me sad. How can you negotiate better way forward with all this background noise?

That's just it. Amacythe posted that in the middle of the dialogue talks, which has several notable people enraged to the point of closing them. That's exactly what her post was designed to do. The very tactics displayed here by Amacythe are the exact reasons why SMF has come to this point, and why the SMF Friends feel this project is being handled improperly. The SMF Community would be wise to keep this in mind.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Fustrate on February 04, 2010, 01:49:14 AM
talktoanil, around thirty former team members (and a few current team members who have now been shunned) already requested that in a letter that I wrote before I resigned. I won't start talking about the reaction we received, but it wasn't positive, or even neutral.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 01:53:32 AM
Quote from: Fustrate on February 04, 2010, 01:49:14 AM
talktoanil, around thirty former team members (and a few current team members who have now been shunned) already requested that in a letter that I wrote before I resigned. I won't start talking about the reaction we received, but it wasn't positive, or even neutral.

I don't know if its possible or legal.

SMF is open-source. Modify the code a little , Give it a new name and new theme. and then let this Amacythe do whatever she wants with this forum and software.

Note : This should be the last step if all talks with her fails.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Fustrate on February 04, 2010, 01:57:44 AM
Ain't gonna work, the license forbids that.

We're actually exploring making our own software without all of SMF's baggage, you might see an image linking to it in quite a few of the former team members' signatures.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Dannii on February 04, 2010, 01:58:39 AM
The SMF Licence doesn't allow that unfortunately. But then the SMF Licence is of questionable legality...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: codenaught on February 04, 2010, 02:09:56 AM
As one of the actual owners of Simple Machines (legally), I feel that I owe the community my opinion. I have kept quiet publicly during this whole crisis, although I was fairly vocal internally. I made the conscience decision for myself that I did not want to be involved in the public "war" over this matter. I knew emotions were high on both sides, and knew both sides would react in ways that they would later regret.

I do not want to stir SMF into the ground. Amy's post to me doesn't to me seem very honest, and I am disappointed that she came out so strong and hostile to the SMF Friends side of this debate in public. I question her intentions here, I really do. I thought this topic was started to tell the community that the ongoing issues between Leadership and Former Team Members were being addressed diplomatically via a form of dialogue. Then I see her post making some very harsh accusations about a rather generic group of individuals who have dedicated really countless hours into this project.

I just want to say, despite what Amy has accused me and so many others of doing, I am not out to "get" her. I really am not. If anyone thinks we are out to get her or wish to kill this project, can you ask yourself, why would we have such intentions?

SMF to many of us, is part of our own child. We all crafted bits and pieces of SMF and its community to allow it to flourish into something amazing. When I signed on to the team, I was just about 17 and a high school student. I sought to find an open project that I could help out with, with the side benefit of enjoying the work I put into it.

For anyone to doubt any of our intentions, I really ask you to think practically about that.

Yes my name is on "that" document some of you may have seen which had 30 names of former team members asking for her and 2 other individuals to resign. Do people really think I feel good about putting my name on such a request? Maybe there are people that take joy out of publicly pronouncing their objection to an individual they at one time knew closely, but I assure you I am not one of those people. I prefer to try to see the story from all perspectives and realize that no Amy is not some evil person. Therefore I stand no personal satisfaction to seeing her character put up to question like it was. I was aware that she probably was going to decline the call for resignation and later I heard that it was going to be posted publicly.

Why did I sign it? Because it is no secret that I thought it was best for the project for her to step down. I have been one of the people who had asked her to step down internally before this whole mess even went down.

Why did I want her to step down? There were quite a lot of reasons, but it really came down to the fact that really quite a substantial amount of people have come out and stated she was a major reason why they left the team. Amy could be a Goddess for all I care, but is anyone worth that much cost? Of course it wasn't just about the fact that they left because of her, but the reasons why they left because of her, but I won't get into them here.

There are so many accounts of why Amy is wrong for this project. But I won't go down there. I will point out that many people actually have different reasons for not trusting her. Something that I think actually says something to those who think we are all just brainwashed into believing stuff. If we were brainwashed, all the dislike for her management would probably hold some level of uniformity.

I will not say why I personally dislike her management of this project, as I wish to take the higher ground here. If others wish to, that is up to them. But I do know that this is a lot of "your word against mine" kind of debate. And when it becomes like that, usually it is the side that is the most courteous that tends to prevail and make people believe in them in the long run. This is just my belief however.

At the end of the day, we all hold opinions of what we think is best for SMF. It is a blurry line from there where it becomes fair to accuse anyone of trying to "hurt" the project or accuse them of just wanting "personal gain."

I resigned from my position on the SMF team because I no longer believed in what the team stood for. That's just my opinion however, and I still have respect for many of the team members who decided to stay on. If I personally was after power, why would I resign from the team in the first place? I already had a leadership position and I was one of the legal owners to this whole company, I think you can argue I didn't have much to gain. I wanted to see us transition to an NPO with more board members and in fact this is what virtually all the Friends that you hear being attacked over here wanted. A more open license. A lot of really awesome stuff in my opinion. To me, we (as in the Friends) wanted stuff that was all about giving SMF to the community. I see the management/leadership closing off politics (mind, "politics" is a very vague term) from the team and clinging on to their control very much against the open spirit that themselves claim to want.

I wish SMF the best of luck for the future. I for one am not out to destroy SMF, and despite the claims, I see no reason to believe so many former team members wish to destroy something they put so many hours into making even possible. It is such a desperate notion to even bring up in my mind. I feel sorry for anyone who really has this belief wired into their brain.

It has been a good up and down road through my experience on the team. SMF has been an incredible learning experience and I have met many friends from it. I will always hold memories of SMF warm to my heart. Even if I am labeled as one of those who doesn't care about SMF or the community. I care, I really do. So many emotions are going through me as I write this post. I will always appreciate my experience with SMF, even if it ended on a bad note.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 02:27:46 AM
Well congratulations, Amy. I admit I owe you a retraction since I didn't think you had it in you to post in this thread. Now, about the content of your post.........

Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
For the past few months, many past team members (SMF Friends) have been returning to offer advice regarding our project.  There had been ongoing discussions about our business structure as well as our team structure.  These discussions were very informative and helpful; however, some of those past team members who returned have expectations of making the decisions regarding the future of a project they left behind.  (Some of them left recently but others left over three years ago.) ... and while their advice was (and still is being) considered their demands were not met and many became disgruntled.

That disgruntlement became openly abusive aggression and the aggression then turned into childish attacks.

The Staff of SMF chose to ignore the immature actions until such time as it was no longer wise to allow these actions to continue.  The negative comments and childish attacks started to hinder the forward motion of the project.  The morale of our active team members was slowly being stripped away one post at a time.  Some team members left over the hostility and a great many others, including all of our developers, were about to leave if something drastic hadn't been done.

This is an interesting way of putting things. My recollection is somewhat different. 

Your first paragraph is partially true, in that the Friends were offering advice about what they thought was best for the project. It is also true that there was some disgruntlement and some childish attacks, but they were not just coming from The Friends. You were responsible for some of them yourself, as were other team members (and at the time I was one of them).

Your next paragraph is, in my considered opinion, a blatant distortion of the facts. You see folks, at the time that this latest and greatest management action was planned and executed the attacks and disgruntlement had ceased on both sides and were replaced with generally productive and amicable discussions. In other words, the assertion that the management actions of a week and a half ago had to be taken to stop unbridled aggression directed at team members is quite simply false. That aggression, from both sides I might add, was long gone. It was no longer an issue. It did not require any action at all to deal with it.


QuoteWithout developers, we would have no future, so the majority of the Developers and Management discussed what drastic action should be taken.  A few of the team members had made the suggestion that we should fire and ban the entire team.  The decision made by the majority of Devs and Management was that the best course of action would be to force all Team Members to sign an agreement stating that they would not be party to the ongoing hostilities and would respect the project's Core Values rather than ban them.  This left the decision up to the members to sign and continue.  Sadly, some of our Team Members refused to sign the agreement and we were forced to remove them from the team.  Some went gracefully, but the majority chose to become aggressively vengeful.  Regretfully, as a result, some of them along with some of members of the community were banned for posting negative propaganda.

I convinced the admin responsible for those bans to lift them, but not until a considerable amount of damage was done to both SMF and to my own reputation.

Ok, this is great. So let's be clear that any member of the team leadership who was thought likely to not agree to the action was not consulted. You didn't mention that. In other words, there was a deliberate policy of not seeking opinions that might have shed a different perspective on the situation. There was no open vote of the leadership that decided on this action after free discussion. This is hardly the way to have an honest approach to dealing with other team leaders.

Now as for the new team agreement, I was one of those who refused to sign. The reason I refused to sign is because I thought the management actions to be so stunningly inept and so guaranteed to provoke massive disruption (and events have certainly proved me right there) at a time when there was no disruption to speak of, that there was no possible way I could bring myself to support such actions. It seemed to me the very epitome of bad management to do something like that. As I have said before, it was as if the action was planned and executed in a vacuum that had no relation to the actual state of the team and friends at the time.

This was my reason for not signing. It had and has nothing to do with revenge. I would note that since that action most of the management involved in it have admitted it was very badly handled and apologised for this. One manager has not. I doubt she ever will.

As for the bans, Kindred was the one who took exception to them and thought they were doing more harm than good. For you to present the reversal of the bans as being solely due to you is ludicrous. You are well known for describing anyone who goes against you as a back stabber. You were greatly annoyed by Jeff's blog post. Personally I am quite sure that even if you later changed your mind, initially you were very much in favour of the bans.


QuoteMany of the past team members have started a great deal of negative propaganda against SMF and the management for taking the above actions.  Most of those who remain on the team are in agreement that the move was needed and while it is regretful to see so many leave our project, we have faith in our remaining team to move forward and continue doing what they do best.

The negative propaganda has not been against SMF at all. It has been solely against some members of the SMF management. As for "most of those who remain on the team", shall we tell people that this is now a team which is only half the size it was a couple of weeks ago? I mean your restructuring post boasted of improvements to workflow. Has your now-half-sized team made impressive reductions in the number of open support topics? In the number of unapproved mods and themes? In the number of unsolved bugs holding up the release of RC3?

Tell me again Amy, exactly why was this management action necessary?


QuoteSome people have been so swayed by the negative propaganda that they have become spiteful and in retaliation have removed themes and mods from our site.  I am very disappointed by this childish and spiteful act.  One of the SMF Team Members has gone so far as to purchase (as in paid real money for) some of the mods from those who originally authored them so those mods would still be available free to the community.

A couple of people initially removed their mods and themes from this site, while still making sure they were freely available to the users of SMF via downloads at other sites. In other words, the mods and themes were never made inaccessible. On the contrary, there were efforts made to ensure that they would remain accessible.

However, as far as I know all the mod and theme authors involved (and there were not many) reconsidered their action and have reinstated their mods and themes on this site, so to the best of my knowledge it is no longer an issue (if it ever really was).


Quoteakabugeyes has never asked me to see the books, therefore I have never told him no let alone refused repeatedly.  If he had asked, I would have granted his wish.

I can post screenshots from a non-public board of his request and your response.


QuoteI freely admit that I listened to the advice of our accountant suggesting that I take a salary to help reduce taxes.  That money is untouched in a private account (less the taxes that needed to be paid) and I have never even borrowed a dime of it.  After 18 months, I stopped taking that salary as it proved to be roughly equal in taxes and is truly a nightmare for bookkeeping.  I also want to state that it was never a secret... MANY people were aware of this.  If I really wanted to steal from the company, I surely would have kept it private.

It was put to a team vote as to whether or not you would be allowed to take a salary and the vote was resoundingly against the idea. When you say MANY people knew you were taking a salary it seems that what you really mean is that the vast majority of the team did not know, despite being asked to vote on it.


QuoteI apologize to everyone for not informing you sooner of the ongoing strife, but felt it would be inappropriate to point out the childish behavior of our past team members.

roflmao. :D That really is awesome. Thanks for the laugh.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on February 04, 2010, 02:50:31 AM
I think that now in order to save the project you need to take "fast" decisions. In this situation you're losting - I think -a large amount of users...

My idea is to make new big elections open to both friends and team members.. resecting all the actual roles and let em be voted..
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Owdy on February 04, 2010, 03:01:37 AM
Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PM
I apologize to everyone for not informing you sooner of the ongoing strife, but felt it would be inappropriate to point out the childish behavior of our past team members.
Nice, attack is best defence, right? Amacythe, you need to leave this project, you know that. Telling lies wont fix that. Over 20 team members have left only in past year. If you have failed as leader, don't blame us for it. Take some responsibility and leave.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tristan Perry on February 04, 2010, 03:29:06 AM
It's nice to see Amy post here.. it's a shame that her post contains a number of in-accuracies though.

I'm not interested in addressing her post point-by-point (mainly since I'd be wasting my time; dozens have tried and failed)

The short story for me is quite clear to see, and Amy's post sums that up.

Her post essentially says "I've done nothing wrong. It's the SMF friend's fault. I'm blameless. They are entirely in the wrong".

This is a bad attitude to take, and it's this (wrong) line of thinking that is really harming the SMF project. It's not bad luck that dozens of people have left the team over the past year or so, and then 33 people signed a joint letter calling for Amy and some others to resign from their post.

Edit: To SMF fans: all the SMF friends and most of the people on the SMF team care about SMF and want what's best for that. This is something to remember :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 03:32:55 AM
One minor point: the letter initially had 33 signatories, not a dozen or so. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tristan Perry on February 04, 2010, 03:35:07 AM
Thanks; I've amended that :) I meant to say: 'dozens have left the team, and a further dozen signed a joint letter'... meaning roughly 24+12, although it came out confusing! ^^
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Paracelsus on February 04, 2010, 03:41:05 AM
I guess Amacythe's post made it pretty clear that she isn't interested in achieving an agreement that is satisfying enough for everybody and therefore, in my opinion, she should step down for now. This would put everyone at 'the same level' and allow the discussion to flow on common grounds until a decision is reached, leaders are chosen and an internal structure is created. And if Amacythe returns to her current position so be it and if somebody else emerges in her place so be it too. But Amacythe must absolutely step down and 'dissolve power' until people find a solution to this.

Sorry if this adds 'background noise', I'm not and never been part of SMF Staff, but as a faithful user of SMF I felt I had to say this. 
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Dannii on February 04, 2010, 03:58:58 AM
Antechinus, just to be pedantic, as the truth matters, when jerm took down his Ad Management mod it wasn't available anywhere, until vbgamer bought it.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 04:04:08 AM
Ok, sorry. I missed that one.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 04:12:55 AM
@ALL

Lets take a public poll if members want Amacythe to step down. 


Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:16:38 AM
Please, let it go, folks. This is a team+friends matter, and anyone who is not part of that group, please kindly do not comment.

The public here do not know the full story. I'm not entirely sure every single person on the team knows every single detail. Late-comers like me certainly don't know the full history, and people like me - former team - have been blindsided by the revelations of history.

Unless you know precisely what you are talking about, please DO NOT comment.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 04:35:51 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:16:38 AM
Please, let it go, folks. This is a team+friends matter, and anyone who is not part of that group, please kindly do not comment.

The public here do not know the full story. I'm not entirely sure every single person on the team knows every single detail. Late-comers like me certainly don't know the full history, and people like me - former team - have been blindsided by the revelations of history.

Unless you know precisely what you are talking about, please DO NOT comment.

For 1st time Arantor,  i don't second your thought.

Reason : No matter what internal / external disputes are , the only person going to be affected is the end user like me who had confidence in SMF that it is the BEST FREE Forum software. Many of us have hosted our multiple forums based on SMF and have recommended it to friends.  However, such kind of conflicts which are not solved quickly does affects the faith of an individual in SMF.

I really don't want people to start looking for some alternative solutions to host their forums.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:40:18 AM
Quote from: talktoanil on February 04, 2010, 04:35:51 AM
Reason : No matter what internal / external disputes are , the only person going to be affected is the end user like me who had confidence in SMF that it is the BEST FREE Forum software. Many of us have hosted our multiple forums based on SMF and have recommended it to friends.  However, such kind of conflicts which are not solved quickly does affects the faith of an individual in SMF.

I'm an end user. It affects me too.

But I'm more getting at people who are demanding things they have NO KNOWLEDGE of. You're asking for a public vote for Amacythe to step down. Did you ever talk to her? Do you know her? Do you know the history of what is being discussed in this thread? If the answer to any of these is no, then you have really little right in asking for her to step down.

For example there is talk of childish actions from the Friends - do you know what any of those things are? I do, I was involved with some of them.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 04:43:47 AM
So you think taking poll is a bad idea ? Looking at all the posts here , this dispute will be stretched too long unless Amacythe takes a final call for SMF.  My question is, how long will it continue ?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Owdy on February 04, 2010, 04:45:12 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:16:38 AM
Please, let it go, folks. This is a team+friends matter, and anyone who is not part of that group, please kindly do not comment.
Why? This is community project.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:46:06 AM
Yes, I think such a poll is a very bad idea because at best you'll have the people who actually have some idea of what's going on involved, and at worst you have everyone who has NO idea involved voting because of what little is public knowledge.

There is negotiations going on. Some here do not believe it will be productive, some do. At least allow them to give it a shot.


Owdy: Because of all the things in this thread. People are shouting and screaming and carrying on based on heresay and speculation. I'm asking that for now it be contained to people who have SOME idea of what's actually going on.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Owdy on February 04, 2010, 04:49:04 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:46:06 AM
There is negotiations going on.
BS, that is just damage control, Amacythes post shows that very clear.

Quote
I'm asking that for now it be contained to people who have SOME idea of what's actually going on.
Well, too bad you cant tell here whats going on, if you do, you get banned.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 04:50:12 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:46:06 AM
Yes, I think such a poll is a very bad idea because at best you'll have the people who actually have some idea of what's going on involved, and at worst you have everyone who has NO idea involved voting because of what little is public knowledge.

There is negotiations going on. Some here do not believe it will be productive, some do. At least allow them to give it a shot.


Owdy: Because of all the things in this thread. People are shouting and screaming and carrying on based on heresay and speculation. I'm asking that for now it be contained to people who have SOME idea of what's actually going on.

Ok. No issues. Let both the teams try their level best to come up with a decision which will be doing good for the community. However, if negotiations fails , then at-least the core members need to take a poll. I hope that the outcome will be positive and in favor of SMF community.

Lets wait now and hope that this waiting is not long.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: stfox100 on February 04, 2010, 04:57:10 AM


Quote
Owdy: Because of all the things in this thread. People are shouting and screaming and carrying on based on heresay and speculation. I'm asking that for now it be contained to people who have SOME idea of what's actually going on.

And how do you know who that would be? I've been privy to a quite a bit of knowledge that you would have no idea about. Yet on my credentials alone, I'm an outsider, who just happens to know quite a lot of people.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 05:00:36 AM
I'd be suggesting that it would be the team and friends who have been directly involved. Can't vouch for anyone else, though I'd argue if you knew many of the details you must have either been a friend or ex team member, or someone has discussed it at great length with you.

That said, I'm ex-team, and I don't know all of what's gone on, most of it I've only read about.

I'm just trying to calm a little down of the flames that are needlessly being fanned here.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: stfox100 on February 04, 2010, 05:08:40 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 05:00:36 AM
I'd be suggesting that it would be the team and friends who have been directly involved.
Although I wouldn't have a vote, I consider that fair. But I've been in business a long time and know a little about good and bad decisions,...some made by myself.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: wildebeast on February 04, 2010, 05:22:15 AM
none of this is reassuring - there is claim and counter-claim from staff and SMF friends... if we lowly end users are not to comment, where can we get reassurances from?

We are going to speak to eachother to try and figure things out, that's human nature, and such discussions will invariably happen in all sorts of places - some public.

Not that I matter much (if at all - just a returning user having used SMF for 4 years until recently), but none of this is reassuring at all and does not at all, encourage me to return using SMF.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Joker™ on February 04, 2010, 06:07:24 AM
Sorry to interrupt in between ,i reading this thread regularly and i had on intention of writing in this thread before this morning , but when i woke up i saw this thread as some war zone.

i was staff at a big site not big as smf (but it is biggest in it category) ;)

it has nearly  5,50,000 Members
Posts around : 2,50,000
Replies: 11,00,000

we had a great team there . but suddenly our admin became Hitler and we all started feeling like as if we are labour on that site .
over a big cultural issue when we talked to admin he said u can leave the site, i wont change my decision.
He thinks that position at which site is just coz of him (keeping this apart).

Me n my fellow friends simply quit the site by giving him resignation.
Till now also users over there know that we have some problem with management n we left..


My whole point is Don't make these sorts of allegations over each other in public,something is know as site image which everyone must maintain.

I'm also worried that such a great script(SMF) which inspired my to start coding instead of posting in warez sites,may loose its charm n people will tend to look for other alternatives scripts if people continue to see such behavior.

So my Humble request is that ,the purpose for which this thread was created let it to be there only, don't make this a battle field :)

Hope everyone take this positively and start's to think in positive manner.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tristan Perry on February 04, 2010, 06:08:03 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 05:00:36 AM
I'd be suggesting that it would be the team and friends who have been directly involved. Can't vouch for anyone else, though I'd argue if you knew many of the details you must have either been a friend or ex team member, or someone has discussed it at great length with you.

That said, I'm ex-team, and I don't know all of what's gone on, most of it I've only read about.

I'm just trying to calm a little down of the flames that are needlessly being fanned here.
I agree that to know *all* the details you'd need to be a team member or SMF friend.

But it's quite easy for the general public to get the gist details if they look at this thread, at some blogs, at the SMF friends open letter, etc :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 06:10:21 AM
Quoted from somewhere:
QuoteA true leader knows when to step down, even if they've done nothing wrong.
Since i joined the team 8 months ago, more than 20 team members left the project. I know for a fact, most left due to poor management and the recent hijacking of the project.
Is a few leaders worth that? No matter if they are right or wrong, I'd say no.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: godboko on February 04, 2010, 07:24:37 AM
Something doesn't jive here, no accountant would ever recommend shielding tax laws, ever. Well no certified accountant would. The accountant might recommend changing corporate structure to achieve a more favorable tax rate.

The only accountant that would recommend you take a salary is your personal accountant, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 04, 2010, 08:05:33 AM
That's what many of us have said as well, and even Amy just told us that the costs were approx. The same, so why bother even?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: stardx on February 04, 2010, 08:10:18 AM
Quote
Yes, I think such a poll is a very bad idea because at best you'll have the people who actually have some idea of what's going on involved, and at worst you have everyone who has NO idea involved voting because of what little is public knowledge.

welcome to democracy  ;)

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on February 04, 2010, 08:22:56 AM
Quote from: sid2varun on February 04, 2010, 06:07:24 AM
My whole point is Don't make these sorts of allegations over each other in public,something is know as site image which everyone must maintain.

This is exactly what happened for a number of years. Team members left the project quietly, for the most part, and didn't cause a fuss. Essentially, they spoke with their feet. The buildup of tension over those years is what you see exploding now, this isn't some overreaction to a single event or decision. The issues which caused the problems were routinely discussed between Friends and team, with very little progress in the past.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: CountryLady on February 04, 2010, 08:27:37 AM
SMF has come to a rough patch for sure, and it is a sad state of affairs.

For the leadership on all levels to expect the members of the community they serve to stand silent on matters that affect their lives & businesses, while said 'leadership' proceeds to trash each other AND the well-being of the project/community itself is unacceptable and contrary to the overall well-being of said project/community. And NO, I am not just jumping into the fray. Here is why I say this...

Every organization is 'at risk' from a variety of problems, such as how to handle the business if a tornado were to destroy the documents and structure that houses them, what to do if a member of the mgmt team were to die, how to go about contending with a leader who has conflicts of interest, what to do if a member of the core leadership were to become mentally unstable, what is the best way to limit the damage of leaders who have lost the trust of the workers, membership, and the end users of the many SMF forums? When risk mitigation is not built into a project/community's foundation, it loses its flexibility and its leader's ability to lead, manage and guide the community back to stability is lost.

Rarely is a problem any ONE person's fault. However a community problem that cannot be successfully resolved in a way that publicly demonstrates stability, fairness and integrity for all who contribute to it, has already failed. The reasons WHY is fodder for future discussion, but a successful remedy needs to be found and implemented immediately.

When a community leader 'refuses to acknowledge' that they are no longer able to successfully lead the community, there must be a process that can quickly minimize the resulting damage that the ineffective leadership causes. Problems that are not attended to quickly and efficiently will create additional problems, and the downward spiral generally results in the destruction of the community as a whole.

Those who created SMF hold the key to the SMF Community's well-being. They are the ones who deeply understand the Spirit of SMF and they must be called upon to preserve and protect the core mission of the community so that the members needs are met. This is a TRUST issue, and the MEMBERS of the SMF Community owe it to the leadership to adequately communicate what it will take to assure their CONFIDENCE in the SMF Project/Community. Therefore I believe it IS my responsibility as a member to speak up, clearly, without emotion, or attacking individual people, in order to encourage those ultimately responsible for SMF's success to take action quickly to insure their forum's continued success.

If those who created SMF did not properly protect the community from mis-management when they originally setup the SMF organization as an Open Source project, they should be allowed, if not required, to step forward and do so immediately. Let the lawyers or a Mediation Team work out the aches and pains of this current fiasco. No community can last without having that degree of protection, and those who started and built SMF, who convinced the public to 'believe in SMF' as a software and as a productive community project have a DUTY to rise to the occasion and swiftly resolve this conflict BEFORE the community is irreversibly damaged.

This is not about demanding anyone step down, but is totally about maintaining the trust of the workers, membership/users, and the participants in the SMF forums around the world. MANY people have given their time, effort and energy to SMF. It would be beyond insulting to abuse the gift of their talent and time by minimizing their contributions and ignoring their needs now.

Please understand that this is not a matter of 'taking sides'. This is a matter of personal integrity, of successfully earning and keeping the trust of those who use SMF, and of proper business management for the continuity of the overall SMF project/community. SMF is a TEAM effort and in my opinion needs to have a Core Advisory Team to prevent leadership matters from becoming entangled in emotions, personality, etc. Problems will ALWAYS come up in every organization, and in the end, no one person should have absolute power over an Open Source Project, or be/feel irreplaceable.

SMF belongs to ALL of us.

Thank you for hearing my perspective.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 04, 2010, 08:31:22 AM
CountryLady - I thinks I loves ya :P
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 04, 2010, 08:32:07 AM
I want the negotiations to work, I really do. But what little optimism I had vanished after reading  Amy's post.

I guess I don't see, within her words, what room there is for any sort of negotiations to accomplish anything. Negotiations require a willingness to compromise, a willingness to admit one's own wrongdoings, and a willingness to reach out and work the opposing team towards the greater good, putting the needs of the many over the desires of the few.

There is none of that in Amy's post, unfortunately.

I am willing to wait, but please... someone give me a sign that the waiting has hope. Amy's post, and its rebuttal by people who (unlike me and most of us) are in the know, just seem to re-emphasize earlier feelings that there is only one solution to the problem, but that solution won't happen because the person with all the power won't let it.

I have the utmost respect for those involved with the negotiations, but they can only work within the confines of the power and leeway they are given by the one person who has sole, complete and absolute power. Otherwise it's just a PR distraction.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Tony Reid on February 04, 2010, 08:57:09 AM
I think its important to realise that the community will not be a loser in this situation.

SMF is unlikely to die, worst case scenario is that development is further delayed. My only concern if that happens is the speed of security updates... there are still outstanding security issues from October last year.

If negotiations fail - which (in my opinion) is looking like they will fail, then the SMF friends will certainly not let the community down.

Either way - the SMF community will be looked after.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ~DS~ on February 04, 2010, 09:49:27 AM
Amacythe's post clearly show contradictions.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:04:11 AM
Honestly, the only people that REALLY REALLY matter in this project are the coders.

Everyone else is highly replaceable and expendable. Some of you may not want to hear that but it's the truth. Anyone can write some docs or give forum support but not just anyone can write good clean and safe code.

That isn't to say non-coders are not helping out the community greatly. But the coders should really be considered the most important asset to keep in all of this.

So basically, I support whatever option that will keep the most, best coders around. Everything else is just self-important politics and a waste of time.

I'm not sure what faction can keep the most coders around but that's all you people need to figure out!

But looking at the "accomplishments" Amy posted I'm not impressed. Over 3+ years it looks like all you did was set up some servers. Organizing meetings is not something to brag about. Sure it's nice, but let's be realistic here.. WE NEED CODERS not Martha Stewart.

So, IMO Amy is highly expendable. But if her faction keeps the most Coders than she should stay. If the other faction keeps the most Coders then they should definitely win out here.

All that matters is Programmers.

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nibogo on February 04, 2010, 10:06:47 AM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:04:11 AM
But looking at the "accomplishments" Amy posted I'm not impressed. Over 3+ years it looks like all you did was set up some servers. Organizing meetings is not something to brag about. Sure it's nice, but let's be realistic here.. WE NEED CODERS not Martha Stewart.

x2

Quote from: live627 on February 03, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
I would also like to know why SMF 2 is taking so long to be developed.

As you can see in the Team page there are only 4 Developers and one of them is On Hiatus so actually 3 developers for such a big project isn't enought, as you can see in other big projects like MyBB, phpbb, Joomla...They have more than 5 developers and that is actually obvious and you should count that actually a lot of great SMF developers aren't in the team due to the issues with the current Project Manager like JayBachatero, Thantos, Unknown...
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ~DS~ on February 04, 2010, 10:09:47 AM
Quote from: NIBOGO on February 04, 2010, 10:06:47 AM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:04:11 AM
But looking at the "accomplishments" Amy posted I'm not impressed. Over 3+ years it looks like all you did was set up some servers. Organizing meetings is not something to brag about. Sure it's nice, but let's be realistic here.. WE NEED CODERS not Martha Stewart.

x2
LOL, Martha Stewart
x3
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 10:10:17 AM
Disgusting to see all this altruistic nonsense thrown around about who sacrificed themselves more for the software, as if whoever destroys their own life for charity to the greatest extent is the most noble.

No wonder support on this site has dropped off so steeply the last few years. Its to the point now where the last support request I made got me a rude command to write a mod to do what I asked is possible or not and then you have "associates" of the community who attack their own users. if you report such a post, you are ignored. If you respond, you are censored.

No one matters but the coders, eh? I guess that shows the attitude in operation.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: 青山 素子 on February 04, 2010, 10:21:47 AM
I hate to say, but I'm a bit disappointed by the post as well. I do understand the need to defend one's self with all the bad stuff going around in public, maybe only half of it true (with a very loose definition of "true"), but one also needs to look reasonable, and that wasn't shown.

I think on both sides of the matter there are people who are so determined to prove they are "right" that they will do anything they can to achieve that goal. They may not want to kill the SMF community, but they aren't seeing that their pursuit of their goal tramples all over the project.

Both sides have committed poor actions and both sides also need to realize that they must compromise to save the project they claim to love. I see too many people taking a hardliner stance of ultimatum, but that won't serve anything because their minds are closed to any other possible solution.

Please, for the love of SMF, both sides please be prepared to give on a few points to save the project. Campaigning to force Amy out won't achieve anything but anger and a further hardening of positions. You feel it may prove you right, but it's a road to failure. Rather, aim to reduce the influence she can have in the areas you have a problem with her being. Get some more managing partners added, work on finding the right company structure for the project to survive, and leave the ultimatums at the door.

The problems didn't occur overnight and they won't be solved instantly or by any one action.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Eliana Tamerin on February 04, 2010, 10:29:17 AM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:04:11 AM
Honestly, the only people that REALLY REALLY matter in this project are the coders.

No one is irreplaceable. Even Joseph Fung and Jeff Lewis, who coded YABBSE into php/mysql from the original YABB in perl, or [Unknown] who wrote most of SMF 1.0, were irreplaceable. They left, and the project survived. The same can happen for any developer, any project manager, any team member.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 10:32:29 AM
I would point out that also pissing off the current team - and possible future developers (I was considered, note) - is not really a way to go.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:36:07 AM
Quote from: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 10:10:17 AM
No one matters but the coders, eh? I guess that shows the attitude in operation.
You're just here to troll because no one liked your attempt to bring in ridiculous non-SMF politics into the discussion. You fail, move on.

And yes, No one... NO ONE.. matters but the programmers. Everyone else in the team is just there to support them. Let's be realistic. SMF is a program after all!

Oh also I'm just a user like you, so your comment about "this shows the attitude in operation" makes about as much sense as your other posts.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 10:41:45 AM
ForumGuy789: Not even potential members of the programmers' team? People to join the ranks and help the program grow?

Oh, and I won't disagree about the trolling comment, eh, weightman?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:47:51 AM
Quote from: Eliana Tamerin on February 04, 2010, 10:29:17 AM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:04:11 AM
Honestly, the only people that REALLY REALLY matter in this project are the coders.

No one is irreplaceable. Even Joseph Fung and Jeff Lewis, who coded YABBSE into php/mysql from the original YABB in perl, or [Unknown] who wrote most of SMF 1.0, were irreplaceable. They left, and the project survived. The same can happen for any developer, any project manager, any team member.

True enough, coders can be replaced, but the process of replacing the core development team is much more difficult than replacing other team members.

Your only real assets are your coders. I'd work this situation with that in mind. But that's just my opinion I suppose.. but it makes a lot of common sense to me.

Arantor, potential members of the programming team are important as well. But I'm just saying that this whole discussion should be focusing on the programmers, current and future. What option will bring the best programmers in both short-term and long-term. Current programmers are the most important asset IMO though. And if all programmers on all sides could stay that'd be the best option obviously.

I tend to sound too harsh when posting sometimes so will try to refrain from posting much more on this. It's just hard not to throw around an opinion now that you've brought it into the public arena.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 10:49:36 AM
Most of the people who wrote a goodly chunk of 2.0 have already been hounded out, and most of the people who would have gone on to be the next generation of SMF's maintainers have gone too.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 10:52:30 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 10:41:45 AM
ForumGuy789: Not even potential members of the programmers' team? People to join the ranks and help the program grow?

Oh, and I won't disagree about the trolling comment, eh, weightman?

Nice DP Arantor  :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Orstio on February 04, 2010, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on February 04, 2010, 10:21:47 AM
I hate to say, but I'm a bit disappointed by the post as well. I do understand the need to defend one's self with all the bad stuff going around in public, maybe only half of it true (with a very loose definition of "true"), but one also needs to look reasonable, and that wasn't shown.

I think on both sides of the matter there are people who are so determined to prove they are "right" that they will do anything they can to achieve that goal. They may not want to kill the SMF community, but they aren't seeing that their pursuit of their goal tramples all over the project.

Both sides have committed poor actions and both sides also need to realize that they must compromise to save the project they claim to love. I see too many people taking a hardliner stance of ultimatum, but that won't serve anything because their minds are closed to any other possible solution.

Please, for the love of SMF, both sides please be prepared to give on a few points to save the project. Campaigning to force Amy out won't achieve anything but anger and a further hardening of positions. You feel it may prove you right, but it's a road to failure. Rather, aim to reduce the influence she can have in the areas you have a problem with her being. Get some more managing partners added, work on finding the right company structure for the project to survive, and leave the ultimatums at the door.

The problems didn't occur overnight and they won't be solved instantly or by any one action.

I agree with your assessment.

Do you see any way, however, that Amy can remain in her current position, or anywhere on the team for that matter, and not provoke defensive tactics against another coup d'etat?  So long as she's there, the feeling of her attempting this course again will remain.  The lack of trust needs to go.  I don't see how it can go while she remains.  Do you?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: krick on February 04, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/license.php
QuoteSimple Machines LLC reserves the right to change the terms of this Agreement at any time, although those changes are not retroactive to past releases.

Find a past release with a less restrictive license and fork SMF from there.  If even a fraction of the disgruntled ex-SMF developers came back and worked on the fork, it wouldn't take that long to build an SMF 2.0 compatible fork.

People would just have to be VERY careful that they did the whole thing clean room and didn't use any existing SMF source.  Granted, the code would look very similar because there's only so many ways to do something in PHP.

The other potential solution would be to start from scratch on SMF 3.0 (though you'd have to call it something else) and focus on making the conversion from SMF 1.1 and 2.0 as painless as possible for the end user.  I suspect that this approach is already underway behind the scenes.

SMF is dead. Long live SMF.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 11:06:35 AM
The only past release with a less restrictive license is YaBBSE, I believe which SMF was forked from.

(Pssst, there are rumours of starting something completely from scratch elsewhere.)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 04, 2010, 11:09:50 AM
ok...   Sorry, ForumGuy, but you are wrong.

Without support staff, the program will fail just as surely as without developers.
Without documentation and internationalization...   etc and so forth.

Yes, the developers are important, but so is the rest of the team, and no one is irreplaceable or "required" for SMF to survive.

(and SMF *WILL* survive.)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 04, 2010, 11:12:53 AM
Quote from: akabugeyes on February 04, 2010, 02:09:56 AM
As one of the actual owners of Simple Machines (legally), I feel that I owe the community my opinion.

I want to thank you for your post. It's helpful for the community, most of whom don't have the inside information, to see the thoughts and opinions of respected people who are on the inside and do have that information. As one of the only 3 legal owners of SMF, your words hold weight.

I am wondering if you'd be willing to clarify some confusion and disagreement on one point that involves you:

1) Did you ask Amy for the financial records (which you are legally entitled to, being an LLC partner, and she's legally required to produce on-request of one of the other LLC partners)?

2) Did she honor your request?

You're right... the "he said she said" stuff is crazy. Antechinus says you did, Amy says you didn't. I am hoping that bit by bit we can settle the ambiguity of some of these issues so certain questions of what is "true" and what is really happened can be put to rest, allow us to move forward. You're in a unique position to settle this particular issue once and for all, for the benefit of the community.

You needn't provide more than "yes" or "no" if you don't have the energy to elaborate, but some clarification to this issue even with just Y/N would be extremely helpful.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on February 04, 2010, 11:21:57 AM
Is Amy (after her post) at least posting something in private boards?
I don't think it's really useful to post only one time and then disappear.....
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 11:40:27 AM
Quote from: Kindred on February 04, 2010, 11:09:50 AM
ok...   Sorry, ForumGuy, but you are wrong.

Without support staff, the program will fail just as surely as without developers.
Without documentation and internationalization...   etc and so forth.

Yes, the developers are important, but so is the rest of the team, and no one is irreplaceable or "required" for SMF to survive.

(and SMF *WILL* survive.)

If you don't currently have a bunch of free good quality programmers knocking at your door right now to help out, then you're wrong. I'm simply stating that the programmers here are the ones with the real skills. They are making the program.

There are plenty highly-successful, large, popular programs out there that are made by a single programmer or a few programmers who alone also control every aspect of the business. Controlling the business is the easy part - especially when you do not market a physical product, or do physical advertising. You're not even charging customers. You only have to deal with donations.

So yes, other team members are important and help, but they are much more replaceable than programmers.

To count a programmer and non-programmer as equal in importance during negotiations is the first step to destroying SMF.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: GravuTrad on February 04, 2010, 11:51:36 AM
Devs are clearly the most important thing. But the rest of the team too.

After, for the friends, if you don't want comments, the team shoudn't post this in public, and smf friends too...you can't stop comments if you post it publicly....
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on February 04, 2010, 11:51:39 AM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 11:40:27 AM
If you don't currently have a bunch of free good quality programmers knocking at your door right now to help out, then you're wrong. I'm simply stating that the programmers here are the ones with the real skills. They are making the program.
Just take a sneak peek at the current team page, and then to the Friends list - and compare ;)

Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 11:40:27 AM
To count a programmer and non-programmer as equal in importance during negotiations is the first step to destroying SMF.
No - No - And No. SMF was built on the idea of the team being equals. So no single person should be more important than the rest, specially not more important than the majority of the rest.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: krick on February 04, 2010, 11:53:06 AM
Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 11:06:35 AM

The only past release with a less restrictive license is YaBBSE, I believe which SMF was forked from.


Then start there.  The hardest part of any software development effort is figuring out first what to do, then figuring out second how to do it. Once you get there, the coding is easy.  It's like 80% research, planning, and design and 20% actual coding.  The 80% part has been done already so that can be leveraged to help create an SMF 2.0 "clone" using YaBBSE as the starting point.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 11:56:12 AM
Quote from: LexArma on February 04, 2010, 11:51:39 AM
No - No - And No. SMF was built on the idea of the team being equals. So no single person should be more important than the rest, specially not more important than the majority of the rest.

Sure, but I'm not commenting on the idea that SMF was built around. I'm commenting on what works in reality. In reality certain things are more important than other things.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: krick on February 04, 2010, 12:03:19 PM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 11:56:12 AM
In reality certain things are more important than other things.

LOL.  This needs to be a signature.  Or maybe a t-shirt.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Amanda. on February 04, 2010, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: krick on February 04, 2010, 12:03:19 PM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 11:56:12 AM
In reality certain things are more important than other things.

LOL.  This needs to be a signature.  Or maybe a t-shirt.

Or an episode of Sesame Street.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Christian Land on February 04, 2010, 12:09:50 PM
Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 11:56:12 AM
Quote from: LexArma on February 04, 2010, 11:51:39 AM
No - No - And No. SMF was built on the idea of the team being equals. So no single person should be more important than the rest, specially not more important than the majority of the rest.

Sure, but I'm not commenting on the idea that SMF was built around. I'm commenting on what works in reality. In reality certain things are more important than other things.


In reality, everybody is replaceable. In reality, Its just a question of money vs. time. For example: if your main coder goes away and you have lots of money but no time, you'll just hire some awesome coding-god who will solve your problems. Or if you have lots of time and no money, you hire a less talented coder who will solve the problems in a longer period of time. Thats how the software-business works.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 04, 2010, 12:11:57 PM
Quote from: krick on February 04, 2010, 11:53:06 AM
Then start there.  The hardest part of any software development effort is figuring out first what to do, then figuring out second how to do it. Once you get there, the coding is easy.  It's like 80% research, planning, and design and 20% actual coding.  The 80% part has been done already so that can be leveraged to help create an SMF 2.0 "clone" using YaBBSE as the starting point.

I think the issue here is that the overwhelming majority of those with the coding skills and the interest see the roadblock in the way of them continuing where they left off with SMF 2 to be a simpler and more-sensible obstacle to remove than the work it'd take to roll back several years of coding efforts.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: JayBachatero on February 04, 2010, 12:17:05 PM
Really Amy?  I didn't know you would stoop this low.  I really have nothing else to say to you.  You prefer to let SMF go down than to admit to all the stuff you've done, the amount of team members that you have pushed out because you have an issue with getting close to people.  One you get close you tend to push people out and that's what you did to many of us.  Or your ways of manipulating the team into thinking you're suicidal.  But I'm just going to just stay quiet and not even bother anymore. 

These little PR stunts that you are pulling ain't helping you at all.  You have no people skill what so ever.  I think this issue is beyond repair sad though cause I still love SMF and it's a great piece of software.

BTW so you prefer to bring this all out to the public this way before even discussing it with the friends and trying to work things out.  Show's how much you actually care about the project.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 12:37:22 PM
Quote from: krick on February 04, 2010, 11:53:06 AM
Then start there.  The hardest part of any software development effort is figuring out first what to do, then figuring out second how to do it. Once you get there, the coding is easy.  It's like 80% research, planning, and design and 20% actual coding.  The 80% part has been done already so that can be leveraged to help create an SMF 2.0 "clone" using YaBBSE as the starting point.

SMF 1.0 was the result of the fork. And that was a major rewrite too.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 12:39:26 PM
Why would anyone, especially someone with great programming skill, want to be a part of any team which regarded them as completely unimportant and disposable? Unity is achieved only by treating all individuals as vitally important. As soon as you get in to this team above all stuff, you start getting cliques, elitism, power-lusters rising to power by preaching the 'common good', internal bitterness, jealousy, strife, and finally chaos.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 12:40:23 PM
Finally, a non trolling post.

And exactly right, and why I refuse to come back now.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: codenaught on February 04, 2010, 12:51:35 PM
Quote from: sremick on February 04, 2010, 11:12:53 AM
Quote from: akabugeyes on February 04, 2010, 02:09:56 AM
As one of the actual owners of Simple Machines (legally), I feel that I owe the community my opinion.

I want to thank you for your post. It's helpful for the community, most of whom don't have the inside information, to see the thoughts and opinions of respected people who are on the inside and do have that information. As one of the only 3 legal owners of SMF, your words hold weight.

I am wondering if you'd be willing to clarify some confusion and disagreement on one point that involves you:

1) Did you ask Amy for the financial records (which you are legally entitled to, being an LLC partner, and she's legally required to produce on-request of one of the other LLC partners)?

2) Did she honor your request?

You're right... the "he said she said" stuff is crazy. Antechinus says you did, Amy says you didn't. I am hoping that bit by bit we can settle the ambiguity of some of these issues so certain questions of what is "true" and what is really happened can be put to rest, allow us to move forward. You're in a unique position to settle this particular issue once and for all, for the benefit of the community.

You needn't provide more than "yes" or "no" if you don't have the energy to elaborate, but some clarification to this issue even with just Y/N would be extremely helpful.

Thanks.

I didn't want to get into the business of individual pointing out the lies that she made in her post, but since this one directly involves me and a community member has now asked me directly for an answer:

Yes, I did ask. And yes she did refuse. It is in a private area. As Antechinus has stated, he copied screenshots of said posts. It still becomes an issue of who to believe. If some team members want to come out and state that they see such posts, they are welcome to.

I am not sure why Amy thinks she could just deny it ever happened and chalk it off another false rumor. As of right now, the entire team and friends could be linked to said posts in question and know right away she is not being entirely truthful. I am sure she will recall making a response in the same topic that I made a request to open the books stating that she was going to, but then decided after recent posts made that she no longer wanted to. I really doubt she just forgot about it as this topic keeps coming up again and again.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 12:57:19 PM
Politics, and with it all this infighting, is trivia compared to philosophy. It is clear that there is a philosophical breach somewhere in the project but its nature is not entirely clear yet from this thread. It appears ownership of the project is disputed, if not legally than philosophically. But the philosophical dispute underlying the ownership fight hasn't been discussed unless its the license issues mentioned which doesn't seem to be the case. What is the heart of the issue I must assume is in what direction to take the project in the future though the two or more visions have not been laid out. Disrespect for the individual does seem pervasive.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 04, 2010, 01:01:57 PM
Quote from: akabugeyes on February 04, 2010, 12:51:35 PM
Yes, I did ask. And yes she did refuse.

Thank you. That's good enough for me.

Now, I know we have a number of people here educated and trained on legal matters (some even specifically with laws involved an LLC) and qualified to elaborate on the implications of this. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the issue.

I would think one enters into an LLC for the legal protections (both outward and inward) it provides. It would be peculiar to invest in a first aid kit, and then let your child bleed to death because no one wants to make use of the bandages.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Douglas on February 04, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
Quote from: sremicNow, I know we have a number of people here educated and trained on legal matters (some even specifically with laws involved an LLC) and qualified to elaborate on the implications of this. It would be interesting to hear their thoughts on the issue.
This is precisely what a handful of us are trying to get clarification on.  I cannot elaborate beyond this, however, I am one of those working with the lawyers to get the legal issues addressed.

Ultimately, we want to see this project survive.  We want to move forward with the healing process and the complete reorganization of the entire structure and infrastructure, so that SMF can move onto bigger and better things.

There are several of us that will not rejoin the team, no matter what the final result is (I am one of those that will not rejoin).  So, for us, there is nothing to gain or lose.  It's our passion and love of the project that keeps us hopeful that we can all contribute to SMF moving forward.

Signed,
Douglas Hazard
SMF Member ID #6
Former Support Specialist (YaBB SE and SMF)
Former Marketing Team Co-Leader
Owner of a million+ post forum
Tech Co-Admin of several million+ post forums
All of which will be switching off of SMF in the future.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: tfs on February 04, 2010, 01:21:38 PM
I wish that they'd do the following:

1) Add an amendment to the license allowing a one-time split.
2) Fork the product into two lines.
3) Everyone go with the group that they want.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 01:22:53 PM
Amy isn't doing anything wrong as a leader. She's protecting the team and the software, which should also be one of her tasks. In other words, I understand her acts.
The big problem, however, is that she's also the cause to many team members abandonning the SMF project, and some of us were even forced out.
The friends really care about the project, and to most of them, Amy is the problem. No matter who's right or wrong or whatever happened in the past, Amy needs to go. It will probably bring quite a few friends back, as well as some will join again. But the more we wait and the more harsh posts are made, the more the spirit and friendship between friends and current team members will die.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 04, 2010, 01:26:55 PM
Quote from: Douglas on February 04, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
This is precisely what a handful of us are trying to get clarification on.  I cannot elaborate beyond this, however, I am one of those working with the lawyers to get the legal issues addressed.

Ok, thank you. Good to hear.

QuoteThere are several of us that will not rejoin the team, no matter what the final result is (I am one of those that will not rejoin).

That's unfortunate. So there's no possible scenario, no arrangement of who's in what management position, no changing of the legal business entity or license that would inspire you to rejoin?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 01:39:56 PM
Quote from: Douglas on February 04, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
Owner of a million+ post forum
Tech Co-Admin of several million+ post forums
All of which will be switching off of SMF in the future.

Hey Doug, what forum are you moving your huge forum into? PM me if you need to. I want to know how you're going to successfully port such a large forum including avatars, attachments, and internal forum links. Yes, I've done research, and yes it appears nearly impossible to do it smoothly. vbulletin does not have a good import solution at all.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Douglas on February 04, 2010, 01:50:17 PM
sremick and ForumGuy, I've been mandated by the owner of two of the larger forums to switch to whichever forum platform I am going to use on my own site.  As much as I would like to be part of the SMF rebuilding, I feel that my talents and knowledge would be better served by supporting the new software package that us "outsiders" are looking at launching and deploying.  It's still in the early planning stages for all of us, however, because of our passion for the SMF community and core project itself, those plans are on a holding pattern until we can ensure that the core SMF project itself is capable of standing on its own and can grow in the direction it needs to.

ForumGuy, you're right, it's a very huge challenge converting huge forums, especially when one of those forums is over 4 million posts.  It's not improbable, and I've got a plethora of experience on converting several huge forums between various software foundations.

This is the main reason why I am not rushing into making any rash decisions with the conversions.  If it is going to be done, it'll be done at a pace that I afford it to ensure that nothing gets lost.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: MultiformeIngegno on February 04, 2010, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: Douglas on February 04, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
Ultimately, we want to see this project survive.
This is the good spirit!!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 04, 2010, 02:41:44 PM
A little off topic..
I never thought I'd see the day when even Motoko-chan doesn't have a badge ...  :-\
Ok, you may all continue :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 02:44:38 PM
If one person quits and problem is solved then he/she should quit rather than other quitting because of him/her. Its an common sense which is not common these days.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 04, 2010, 02:50:28 PM
If you were running a factory, and other workers left because of you, would you leave too, or just flip them the bird and replace them?
I only mention this because of your cliche common sense line.
Things aren't always that easy mate :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: NoobDeveloper on February 04, 2010, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: Sabre™ on February 04, 2010, 02:50:28 PM
If you were running a factory, and other workers left because of you, would you leave too, or just flip them the bird and replace them?
I only mention this because of your cliche common sense line.
Things aren't always that easy mate :)

then how long will it stretch ? From what i see , either she has to quit or core development team will quit (actually started) which makes only loss to SMF and so to its image.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nick Whetstone on February 04, 2010, 03:21:36 PM
Quote from: Sabre™ on February 04, 2010, 02:50:28 PM
If you were running a factory, and other workers left because of you, would you leave too, or just flip them the bird and replace them?
I only mention this because of your cliche common sense line.
Things aren't always that easy mate :)

Since I'm a newcomer and wasn't even active until November, I can't really comment on everything; but, that was a good analogy.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 04, 2010, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: talktoanil on February 04, 2010, 03:00:50 PM
then how long will it stretch ? From what i see , either she has to quit or core development team will quit (actually started) which makes only loss to SMF and so to its image.

[one liner] You cant please everybody [/close]
Ranting and raving isn't goin to help any, it will only assist in negative reaction(s), and make the 'stubborn minded' even more so.
Everybody can have their say, no matter how uneducated about the actual facts they are, but those of us waiting for actual 'updates' find ourselves sifting through all the garbage first. Including My post :P
Unfortunately, that's the way it goes, but I'm semi sure that I've already read you mentioning the same thing a few times already.
It seems that those that have tried to calm the hysteria, have only wasted their time.
Keep doing as you do, and I will keep sifting through, this is only a plea to lift the needle off the record, because it is clearly scratched ;)

*forgive me if I sound arrogant/rude etc.. that is not my intention, it is just the way I speak lol
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Asude on February 04, 2010, 03:30:02 PM
Quote from: Sabre™ on February 04, 2010, 02:50:28 PM
If you were running a factory, and other workers left because of you, would you leave too, or just flip them the bird and replace them?
I only mention this because of your cliche common sense line.
Things aren't always that easy mate :)

Ah, so she is the owner of the factory and rest is poor workers? Cool. :P
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Sabre™ on February 04, 2010, 03:39:41 PM
That's a pure example of why I refrain from commenting, it shows how easily something simple can be twisted.
But it is understandable aswell, some need to be fed, and there are many here in which english is not their 1st spoken language.
It is actually my third ...  so I understand things can be
[one liner] lost in translation [/close]

/end of spam
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: CountryLady on February 04, 2010, 04:21:16 PM
Quote from: Orstio on February 04, 2010, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: Motoko-chan on February 04, 2010, 10:21:47 AM
snip
Get some more managing partners added, work on finding the right company structure for the project to survive, and leave the ultimatums at the door.

The problems didn't occur overnight and they won't be solved instantly or by any one action.

I agree with your assessment.

Do you see any way, however, that Amy can remain in her current position, or anywhere on the team for that matter, and not provoke defensive tactics against another coup d'etat?
snip

If I may comment...

The Leader of the Leaders position must have a job description in which the overriding objective is to maintain a positive atmosphere and motivate the entire community/project. The Leader must know what is expected of them and there must be a way to measure the Leader's accomplishments in that area. Everyone who works for the good of everyone else needs the benefit of this structure. Whoever created the SMF Community would do well to read and follow the principles in "TOP PERFORMANCE" by Zig Ziggler. To have expectations without knowing specifically what they are and how to measure them is unfair to ALL.

I do understand this is not a Fortune 500 Corporation, but that shouldn't prevent SMF from being managed so that EVERY person who is contributing in any official manner clearly understands what success is, what is expected of them, and periodic reviews that measure/evaluate how well they are carrying out those expectations, and at what point adjustments must be made. Without this, there can only be turmoil in the organization and that is patently unfair to EVERYONE.

To Everyone, as long as YOU make this situation a personal attack, whether "deserved/earned" or not, the success of SMF is held hostage. SOME here believe SMF is Forum Software, but it is FAR more that just that. SMF is and was created as a community/project, and we ALL must insure that the atmosphere at SMF is conducive to us all feeling good about our contributions. To do otherwise works to prevent SMF from being the success that was envisioned.

Each of us Members is expected to do certain things in a certain way in order to be able to interact in this community successfully. These certain things are clearly stated, and strongly enforced. To wit: Post in the proper board. Give details such as to version, problem to be solved. Read the Manual first. Use Search to try to find your answers before asking for help. Pay $ to become a Charter Member. Cuss filters are included to help each SMF Community to set their own guidelines for their members.... See? This is fair and helps to make each user's Support Experience a good and successful one. Everyone WANTS to interact in a respectful, successful environment. If the Leaders of the Leaders environment is not positive, certainly no one else's experience can be anything more.

There is a mediation attempt in progress agreed upon by both ineffective factions. For anyone to continue attacking ANYONE at this point is counter-productive, no - actually it is destructive to any possibility of success on any level. Understand that losing a majority of the core contributors due to ANY reason is NOT ACCEPTABLE in any form. Perhaps the Mediator would be wise to limit input at this time, with the understanding of what the time RANGE is to have resolution.

Consider using the following structure to provide fairness and cooperation...
First, stop the damage being done currently. Know what the goals are and communicate them to the entire SMF Team, allow NO input of a negative or undermining nature. Give 2 deadlines. One to be the BASIC goal giving a date and time for having the organization operating in a way that the work is being done by ALL, and a foundation is in place to refine the structure of Leadership to prevent internal turmoil while a healthier organization within the Leadership is being built. The second is an OUTSTANDING goal giving a date and time for the refined structure (reorganization) to be operational and working well. In other words, first aim for complete resolution and enactment of the adjustments in place by a short date and time (72 hours, a week?), then second, if by that basic goal date that is not possible, clearly set a final date and time for extremely positive movement to have been agreed upon by all and a strategy identified and in progress that would insure a complete resolution and the process of putting the needed adjustments in place must be set (another 72 hours, another week???). At which time if the proposed reorganization has not be achieved, the Team of Three originators must be expected to step up and take over the organization in an advisory capacity to INSURE that the SMF Community/Project becomes a healthy organization.

Remember: while some jobs are more critical to a project than others, everyone involved in the Leadership TEAM is vitally important. SMF is NOT 'software', it is a Community/Project.

Now please give a gmail.com email address JUST for the Members to send you suggestions for the good of SMF, then LOCK this thread and prevent the topic from being discussed during this short time of negotiations.

Good Luck Kindred.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 04, 2010, 04:42:14 PM
I have not locked this thread yet for the simple reason that, if people can't post here, they'll do it elsewhere...  places which might not be appropriate or places which I may miss and thus miss a chance to respond.

I may lock this later... we'll see.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: bullan on February 04, 2010, 05:07:11 PM
I hope you are discussing that in those private/hidden forums;
having around 90 hidden forums means you have a lot to talk; just try to concentrate all of you on the good forum
:)

you should lock this and update it once a day (or more) if you have something to say to us
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: JBlaze on February 04, 2010, 05:17:14 PM
How about we all let go and convert to IPB? ;)

/me laughs evilly and goes back to his dark corner.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Douglas on February 04, 2010, 05:18:18 PM
Welp, I'm not the only big board person moving from SMF.

Without identifying who it is, this is a huge loss for SMF.

6.1 million+ Posts in 127K+ Topics by 31K+ Members
Switching to another software.  This is someone that I have a LOT of personal respect and admiration for.

Sad.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TheListener on February 04, 2010, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: JBlaze on February 04, 2010, 05:17:14 PM
How about we all let go and convert to IPB? ;)

/me laughs evilly and goes back to his dark corner.

The IPB forums I have seen are no match for SMF.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: JBlaze on February 04, 2010, 05:25:22 PM
Quote from: Brack1 on February 04, 2010, 05:21:21 PM
The IPB forums I have seen are no match for SMF.
I beg to differ.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TheListener on February 04, 2010, 05:26:11 PM
ugly is one word I can think off
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rumbaar on February 04, 2010, 05:43:42 PM
First this discussion is for all of the community, and shouldn't be limited to those 'in the know'.  As it's important to everyone who's involved with SMF from a user of a SMF forum to an Admin.

Quote from: CountryLady on February 04, 2010, 08:27:37 AMSMF belongs to ALL of us.
This most important fact posted here!

Quote from: ForumGuy789 on February 04, 2010, 10:04:11 AMHonestly, the only people that REALLY REALLY matter in this project are the coders.
*snip*
All that matters is Programmers.
While true, even when [Unknown] left SMF it did not die, when Grudge, Thantos, JayBachatero, Orstio, etc left it did not die.  The community is the most important part.  It's a shame this action seems to be destroying that community.

Quote from: Motoko-chan on February 04, 2010, 10:21:47 AMThe problems didn't occur overnight and they won't be solved instantly or by any one action.
Well one did, and in one action made it far worse it seems.

I've long said the core idea behind the action was needed, but it's implementation was done so wrong that it negated all of the good it was intended to do.  It was about giving leadership the respect and tools to lead the project and in their first action they disrespected key leaders and LLC partners with their direct non inclusion of planning and implementation.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Nao 尚 on February 04, 2010, 06:04:10 PM
Amacythe,

Although I thought your post was quite convincing in its own way, it's unfortunate that it's such a pile of lies. Other replies have already addressed these points (Eren, akabugeyes, Antechinus, CountryLady, JayB...), but there are a few remaining things for me to say. I had personal comments to make, but I've decided not to post them in the end, and to keep it general, for the sake of the debate.

1/ What ForumGuy said about you may hurt you, and it's a caricature I can't condone, but the gist is that coders do the bulk of the work indeed. SMF is a huge project and requires knowing all of its source code very well if you want to update it without adding more bugs. Believe me, I've been studying it for years and I'm still not finished. So, in over 3 years, you made small tasks, attended 2 expos, organized a couple of internal meetings and sent plenty of T-shirts and other goodies. In the meantime, SMF2 was slowly dying due to the lack of developers.
Excuse me but I fail to see how strong your commitment was to the software.

It was already mentioned by other members that if you feel concerned about SMF's future, you should be stepping down because many developers would return in that case, which would be the best outcome for SMF. I'd love to know your opinion on that. After all, you're the only person to ever receive a salary for your 'contribution' to SMF. You can contribute by being more open.

2/ You didn't answer my earlier post. I didn't expect it, but still... I think it deserves to be made clear who wrote the quote I sent:

Quote from: Nao on February 03, 2010, 09:27:32 AM
« You have every right to have the feelings that you do.  But there are times when you must put your own feelings aside and react in a professional manner.  Your comments reflect on SMF and our entire team if we do nothing when you violate our rules and core values.  What's fair for one should be fair for all. »

By the way, guess who wrote that?

Of course, it was you, Amacythe, who told me that by PM, because you felt I was being unprofessional in my decision to end one of my mods' development back in May 2009. I felt you were partly right in that respect, BTW.

However, as was pointed out many times in this topic, the very same quote can be sent back right to you. Your actions reflect on SMF and the entire time. You violated SMF's core values several times recently. "What's fair for one should be fair for all." You're not above your own statement.

Maybe you don't deserve to take all the blame for what has happened, but as the owner of SMF, you should remember that what matters most is the health of your assets. If you'd rather see it die rather than leave it to a non-profit committee and turn it to open source, then you should also remember that you're not killing a software, you're killing a community, *and* you're making many, many team members angry because they feel like they've committed many years of their time to a project that had no future.

Even if you feel you're not responsible for all the team members leaving, you're still the 'manager'. And as manager, you know very well that you're taking responsibility for all the failure of the company. SMF2's development was started 4 years ago, it's a failure. You should step down if only because of that. Then tell the team you're a candidate to be re-elected. That's the way things are done.
Or, you could allow the Friends team to fork SMF2 into some other software. I'm 100% sure the Friends team will even allow SMF to take all improvements from the forked software and integrate them into SMF.

If none of this happens, more and more people will have to take sides. More and more mod developers will take their creation to another platform. Stop the bleeding while you still can, please.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Fustrate on February 04, 2010, 06:08:09 PM
Quote from: Rumbaar on February 04, 2010, 05:43:42 PM
I've long said the core idea behind the action was needed, but it's implementation was done so wrong that it negated all of the good it was intended to do.  It was about giving leadership the respect and tools to lead the project and in their first action they disrespected key leaders and LLC partners with their direct non inclusion of planning and implementation.

And it wasn't that they just forgot to include us (now-)former leaders. In my case, Amacythe "tested the waters" with me, and when it was clear that I wasn't going to approve of the coup, I was shut out of any further information. A decision was therefore made to purposely keep all of the leaders in the dark except for Tyrsson™, who was gung-ho about it and was then let in on what was going on.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Peter Duggan on February 04, 2010, 06:18:25 PM
Quote from: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 01:22:53 PM
No matter who's right or wrong or whatever happened in the past, Amy needs to go.

@Amy, if you're reading this, I'm sorry to say (as the person who originally brought you onto the Team) that Akyhne is right there. No matter who's right or wrong and no matter how you see things yourself. Nothing is forever and it's time to step aside.

Sincerely
P
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 06:28:56 PM
Nao, very nicely put.  :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ~DS~ on February 04, 2010, 06:30:47 PM
Quote from: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 06:28:56 PM
Nao, very nicely put.  :)
Doesn't he always?  :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 06:35:44 PM
No. Sometimes he does his nut. :D This time he was awesome.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: scottb on February 04, 2010, 06:39:33 PM
Well as a long time follower of the SMF project, the YaBBSE project before it, and not to mention an early Charter Member. I must say it saddens me to see things come to this, and hope that whatever the out come that SMF remains alive and well. SMF and it's continued progress and success is what matters most here, I hope the powers that be here make the right decision for the welfare of the project.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ryanhellyer on February 04, 2010, 06:46:37 PM
Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PMBecause someone actually asked...

Many have been asking time and time again. Someone kept removing our posts :(

Because your "staff" kept censoring our posts I had to start posting outside of SMF just to alert other SMF users to the mess. Please do not do this again! It highly ticked me off!
http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657382
http://www.wptavern.com/forum/general/1220-smf-down-toilet.html

Why did you post a balance sheet from 2006? Why don't you post all of them?


Quote from: Arantor on February 04, 2010, 04:16:38 AM
Please, let it go, folks. This is a team+friends matter, and anyone who is not part of that group, please kindly do not comment.

No, I'll post wherever I want.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 07:05:57 PM
Oh and speaking of balances: Amy attempted to imply there were missing funds not paid over to the LLC when the assets were transferred to the LLC. The reason for this is that the transfer was delayed and therefore the previous owner had had to pay out for server costs, etc for the intervening period. In other words, there was nothing dogey going on, just legitimate costs.

I cannot see how Amy could not have known this since she was directly involved at the time.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:12:09 PM
I, for one, am tired of the behavior of all the irritable trolls and goblins here. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the reaction by most the "SMF Friends" group to being shut out has completely demolished what pity I felt for them. For guys like Unknown and akabugeyes (and Jeff Lewis) I still feel pity, as they're not interested in bemoaning the man-hours lost or in stooping to anything near blackmail.

But understand this, SMF Friends. I won't be using SMF thanks to the stagnation of v2.0 and because of how they treated all of you. But, I won't be using whatever the forum package is you're planning to make either! Additionally, I'll be professionally turning down any work that involves support, creation of, or maintenance of any SMF or "SMF Friends" powered forum.

I just hope most of you goblins wise up and stop setting fire to your own ship.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 07:13:10 PM
So the meat of the issue is resentment because Amy got paid? Or is it resentment because in some people's views she didn't get enough done to warrant the salary? Or, is it a combination? If she hasn't done her job, fire her. What's the problem? But you can't complain about paying a salary being incompatible with your principles if you offered it in the first place.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Dannii on February 04, 2010, 07:24:07 PM
No one can fire Amy but Amy herself. That's the problem, she holds all the cards.

That she took money is a very minor issue that I haven't seen many of the friends actually say they care much about.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:12:09 PM
For guys like Unknown and akabugeyes (and Jeff Lewis) I still feel pity, as they're not interested in bemoaning the man-hours lost or in stooping to anything near blackmail.
For you this is new, for the friends it's been going on for years. We can't do anything, but what we do. The project (servers etc.) was hijacked. What do you want us to do?!!
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 07:31:22 PM
Interesting. If she is the owner outright then of course she can destroy it if she chooses. Attacking her would then be the absolute worst possible course, if you want something from her (i.e., the name Simple Machines or use of code which I would think is slightly less important). Its probably best just to try and buy her out under the circumstances. :)
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ryanhellyer on February 04, 2010, 07:32:35 PM
Quote from: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 07:13:10 PM
So the meat of the issue is resentment because Amy got paid? Or is it resentment because in some people's views she didn't get enough done to warrant the salary? Or, is it a combination? If she hasn't done her job, fire her. What's the problem? But you can't complain about paying a salary being incompatible with your principles if you offered it in the first place.

The following blog post may explain some of it for you:
http://www.  .ca/?p=426

EDIT: It seems that SMF is still censoring things around here :( The link has been automatically stripped. I guess the SMF team still feels there is something to hide in the blog post. I was hoping that attitude had changed, but I guess not :(

Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ~DS~ on February 04, 2010, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 07:31:22 PM
Its probably best just to try and buy her out under the circumstances. :)
What if it's her plan all along...? Lurking us to buy it out of her...?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rowdy on February 04, 2010, 07:38:39 PM
It really doesn't matter what her motivations are if she is the outright owner. She has what you want so you need to make a deal or move on. I'm still waiting for the philosophical dispute at the root of this silliness. My impression is the dispute could be resolved.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:12:09 PM
For guys like Unknown and akabugeyes (and Jeff Lewis) I still feel pity, as they're not interested in bemoaning the man-hours lost or in stooping to anything near blackmail.
For you this is new, for the friends it's been going on for years. We can't do anything, but what we do. The project (servers etc.) was hijacked. What do you want us to do?!!
I want you guys to negotiate like adults, not like a 3-year-old throwing a tantrum. And if that fails, I want you to get up, dust yourselves off, and start fresh if necessary. Take what legal actions you can.

Really, what do you folks have to gain from acting like a bunch of jealous 3-year-olds?
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: madfitz on February 04, 2010, 07:40:17 PM
Well I tired of this thread by page 14.

I'm pretty disappointed that all this dirty laundry is being aired in public. I think both sides have been guilty of childish behaviour, both sides have done wrong to the other and, it seems to me, both sides have lied - or at least been economical with the truth.

I don't have the optimism some have for the future of SMF and right now I'm wondering what software to convert to :(
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Antechinus on February 04, 2010, 07:45:07 PM
Quote from: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:12:09 PM
For guys like Unknown and akabugeyes (and Jeff Lewis) I still feel pity, as they're not interested in bemoaning the man-hours lost or in stooping to anything near blackmail.
For you this is new, for the friends it's been going on for years. We can't do anything, but what we do. The project (servers etc.) was hijacked. What do you want us to do?!!
I want you guys to negotiate like adults, not like a 3-year-old throwing a tantrum. And if that fails, I want you to get up, dust yourselves off, and start fresh if necessary. Take what legal actions you can.
That is coming.

It was impossible to negotiate like adults, because the current management have no intention of negotiating.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: forsakenlad on February 04, 2010, 07:59:26 PM
Quote from: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: The Wicked Flea on February 04, 2010, 07:12:09 PM
For guys like Unknown and akabugeyes (and Jeff Lewis) I still feel pity, as they're not interested in bemoaning the man-hours lost or in stooping to anything near blackmail.
For you this is new, for the friends it's been going on for years. We can't do anything, but what we do. The project (servers etc.) was hijacked. What do you want us to do?!!
I want you guys to negotiate like adults, not like a 3-year-old throwing a tantrum. And if that fails, I want you to get up, dust yourselves off, and start fresh if necessary. Take what legal actions you can.

Really, what do you folks have to gain from acting like a bunch of jealous 3-year-olds?

Well, first of all SMF Friends although firmly connected don't act as a group so please choose your words more carefully when addressing all of them as they can't be held accountable by the actions of a few.

Second of all that was the way we were leaning towards, we had tried all possible discussions and when it didn't work out we had left and started working on something new, but the current SMF management approached us, asked us to open up a channel of dialogue and make sure that no-one else other than the elected representatives got involved in the stuff.

However as you can see, Amy a manager of the project didn't abide by the suggestion that her own team put out. How could we tell our fellow SMF Friends to keep their cool when the people who approached us making that suggestion don't?

I think Amy's post shows how disorganized and misformed the SMF team structure is. What she tried to accomplish by that post, I can't tell. It only led to stagnation and more public mocking.

I'll respectfully bow out now.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: TurtleKicker on February 04, 2010, 08:02:20 PM
Quote from: ryanhellyer on February 04, 2010, 07:32:35 PM
EDIT: It seems that SMF is still censoring things around here :( The link has been automatically stripped. I guess the SMF team still feels there is something to hide in the blog post. I was hoping that attitude had changed, but I guess not :(

Well, that's pretty sad. I thought we were past that. I'd help you bypass this, however the source server seems down at the moment.

For the readers: the above link was to a blog entry by Jeff Lewis, one of the original co-founders of SMF. In it he outlines in-detail what has happened, and his personal opinions on the matter. The substance of this post has been deemed accurate and undisputed, by Kindred even and I believe by Motoko-chan as well (if he disagrees I'll retract this and edit this post).

Posting of this link was the sole basis for banning of many users... the banning which was mentioned by others such as Kindred and Amy herself, which was then reversed. So while the banning was reversed, the stance on whether the SMF co-founder's own words were allowed to be distributed apparently has not.

Quote from: madfitz on February 04, 2010, 07:40:17 PM
it seems to me, both sides have lied - or at least been economical with the truth.

Out of curiosity, could you elaborate where you believe those in opposition to Amy have lied? As this is peculiar and a pretty significant accusation. In the interest of not misleading newcomers to this discussion, it's worthwhile to be specific and clarify such accusations.

By my count, 30-50 significant, respected and notable people are unified in their version of things. The people believing Amy amount to... 2 or 3 people, besides Amy herself (perhaps less now since she made that long post)? Perhaps my numbers aren't exact, but the proportional difference is exponential.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Fustrate on February 04, 2010, 08:56:44 PM
Speaking of Dr. Pepper, I just ran out.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: StarChildxox on February 04, 2010, 09:04:31 PM
 K's I really still don't get it?  I have read the letter where they are asking Amy to step down?  But what I don't get?  What happened to start all of this?  One minute everyone at SMF were all happy campers, I remember Jade and Amy, and runic actually playing in posts, laughing  enjoying each others company?  Everyone was a valuable member of a suposedly great team?  Now everyone is chosing sides, knifes are being thrown in each others backs, and for what?  Please explain, there has to have been a reason for the letter to have been written in the first place, and for it to turn so ugly in such a short amount of time, I as a member want to know what started it?   Someone is not telling us ALL THE FACTS HERE!   Anyone care to be honest?  AND I MEAN COMPLETELY HONEST?   I want the full ENTIRE story?  Please?

                                       Thanx
                                          O:)
                                    hotchildxox
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ryanhellyer on February 04, 2010, 09:08:26 PM
Quote from: sremick on February 04, 2010, 08:02:20 PMI'd help you bypass this, however the source server seems down at the moment.

You can bypass the censoring by using a URL forwarder like TinyURL, but I'm not going to bother. The censorship says far more about what is going on than that blog post would.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: ryanhellyer on February 04, 2010, 09:13:05 PM
Quote from: hotchildxox on February 04, 2010, 09:04:31 PMSomeone is not telling us ALL THE FACTS HERE!   Anyone care to be honest?  AND I MEAN COMPLETELY HONEST?   I want the full ENTIRE story?  Please?

The facts are available, it just seems that we are not allowed to post them here, ie: the blog post which outlines most of the issues is being automatically censored. Many members were banned here recently for posting information about it so I guess they don't want to risk being banned again.

Quote from: ryanhellyer on February 04, 2010, 06:46:37 PM
...
Because your "staff" kept censoring our posts I had to start posting outside of SMF just to alert other SMF users to the mess. Please do not do this again! It highly ticked me off!
http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657382
http://www.wptavern.com/forum/general/1220-smf-down-toilet.html
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Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: StarChildxox on February 04, 2010, 09:37:04 PM
 All that's in blog is the letter basically asking her to step down, but what I am saying is something had to have happened to start this whole thing going, why did they all of a sudden decide to post that letter in the blog, why now?  If it's been five years  what makes it relevant to post it now?  Why not five years ago four, three?  Something happened that no one wants to talk about, not Amy nor the people that oppose her?   There had to be a specific moment and a specific thing, that made them decide to post that request on that blog?  That is what I want to know?  What did Amy do, and to whom, to make them decide, we're going to post this blog and we're all going to sign it, and expect Amy (the owner btw) to just read it and automatically step down?   Who would expect that?  Unless something big happened that none of us know about, so what is it?   I think the SMF community deserves to know everything, before making a conscious decision on who is right and who is wrong?   That letter doesn't give all the facts so what are they?

                                  Thanx
                                    O:)
                              hotchildxox
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: StarChildxox on February 04, 2010, 09:50:16 PM
 Anyone care to reply?  Amy?  Can you tell us what happened?  You are the owner.  You did answer  before when questioned, can you explain the rest of it?  Why out of the blue, has everyone decided to overthrow your leadership?  There had to be a specific reason that they wrote that request to you, now what exactly was that? 

                         Thanx
                           O:)
                     hotchildxox
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 09:54:55 PM
You are not going to get any answers from her. When people are questioning her, she shuts up.

One of the reasons we are in this situation...


Quote from: hotchildxox on February 04, 2010, 09:37:04 PM
Something happened that no one wants to talk about
No it's no secret. The SMF project was stolen by a few. We all got kicked out, and had to sign a letter telling us to STFU to get back.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Savinaa on February 04, 2010, 10:25:08 PM
Well, I heard rumors along the way...I would like to create a SMF forum, but hesitant to devote time to it knowing it could end up stale.  My best of luck to the negotiating teams on both sides.

I can only advise this thread be locked and things kept running as best as possible between all parties and keep  "negotiations" private. 

my 2 cents worth
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: bigt62187 on February 04, 2010, 10:29:54 PM
ive been using smf for a year or so now and would hate to see it go away i really have no idea whats going on but hope you guys can work it out best of luck to the negotiating teams
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: StarChildxox on February 04, 2010, 10:43:22 PM
Quote from: Akyhne on February 04, 2010, 09:54:55 PM
You are not going to get any answers from her. When people are questioning her, she shuts up.

One of the reasons we are in this situation...


Quote from: hotchildxox on February 04, 2010, 09:37:04 PM
Something happened that no one wants to talk about
No it's no secret. The SMF project was stolen by a few. We all got kicked out, and had to sign a letter telling us to STFU to get back.

Why were there a need for questions in the first place?   And what was the first question and who asked it?  I know the team got banned for asking her to step down, but something really bad had to have happened to one of the team, for all of them to stand together like that, and then to create a letter asking the owner to step down and to actually expect her to?  And once again I get insinuations and accusations, but no actual reason it all started?   I want the full blown he said, she said story...    Evidently know one including Amy wants to share the whole entire facts.  Whom did what to whom?  And why is everyone
sweeping it under the bed?  Details give us details....

                       Thanx
                         O:)
                  hotchildxox     
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Rumbaar on February 04, 2010, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: hotchildxox on February 04, 2010, 09:50:16 PM
Anyone care to reply?  Amy?  Can you tell us what happened?  You are the owner.  You did answer  before when questioned, can you explain the rest of it?  Why out of the blue, has everyone decided to overthrow your leadership?  There had to be a specific reason that they wrote that request to you, now what exactly was that?
Maybe the childish behaviour that prevented response in the past is now being attributed to the greater community.  Hence no more responses?
Quote from: Amacythe on February 03, 2010, 10:09:40 PMI apologize to everyone for not informing you sooner of the ongoing strife, but felt it would be inappropriate to point out the childish behavior of our past team members.
We past team members were certainly not the ones to, overnight, lock out all of the team members from access.  Where there are still Team Members who have badges, but have no access to resources to help the community.
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: StarChildxox on February 04, 2010, 11:02:37 PM
 :-\
K's why did she lock out the team members from access?  What made her feel it warranted the situation to do such a thing?  See I get bits and pieces here?  What happened to make her decide to lock out the team members from resources that help the community?  And if you say it's because of that letter asking her to step down?   I WILL PULL MY HAIR OUT!!!!!   What is the reason,  the specific reason that led all of you to write that letter asking her to step down?  And I'm not talking about what she should have, could have done five years ago, I'm asking what exactly did she do to make it necessary for all those team members to write that letter now?   She had to have done something....  You don't just wake up and think, I think we will get all the team members together and oust Amy out of her business today?   So what??

                        Thanx
                           O:)
                   hotchildxox
Title: Re: Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends
Post by: Kindred on February 04, 2010, 11:28:15 PM
alright...  I see we have driven this topic about 6 feet into the ground (about where it belongs, too)

Topic locked. Further commentary and questions on this will be put on hold until we have something additional/new to share.