Simple Machines Community Forum

SMF Development => Feature Requests => Applied or Declined Requests => Topic started by: Jim Stone on May 02, 2012, 04:10:19 PM

Title: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Jim Stone on May 02, 2012, 04:10:19 PM
I think a  "thumbs up" or "like or Dislike" feature for individual posts is long overdue for SMF. I'm literally getting requests every week for it, nearly everybody loves it, wants it, and I can't find a mod that installs correctly, the writer is active, or that works seamlessly without hitches. I had the feature when I ran Proboards but it's not on SMF and it's sorely missed. Please add this feature in this excellent package.

Fingers crossed!

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Nibogo on May 03, 2012, 12:10:35 AM
In fact there's one:

http://www.smfpacks.com/page/sa=likes
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 01:51:49 AM
Quote from: Nibogo on May 03, 2012, 12:10:35 AM
In fact there's one:

http://www.smfpacks.com/page/sa=likes

It's not free, it's $15.00 equipped. It should be a built in feature, as "likes" for posts are becoming a standard everywhere. Also, it says compatible with versions up to 2.01, I'm running 2.02, which is another reason. I don't want to keep upgrading with every new release of SMF. On a great (and I mean Great) platform like SMF, it should be standard as most people expect it on professional forums.

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: emanuele on May 03, 2012, 06:19:35 AM
For a mod 2.0.1 or 2.0.2 doesn't make any difference (in 99.99% of the cases, a 0.01 for safety :P).

What it's really difficult for me is to understand what is the difference between a "like" and a reply.
If I like a post I quote it and I state I like it, if I like or I'm interested in a topic I answer there. What does the "like" add to a conversation (that is the main point of a forum)? In my opinion...nothing...

And it's a genuine question, not a criticism or anything similar.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Nibogo on May 03, 2012, 08:06:37 AM
Quote from: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 01:51:49 AM
Quote from: Nibogo on May 03, 2012, 12:10:35 AM
In fact there's one:

http://www.smfpacks.com/page/sa=likes

It's not free, it's $15.00 equipped. It should be a built in feature, as "likes" for posts are becoming a standard everywhere. Also, it says compatible with versions up to 2.01, I'm running 2.02, which is another reason. I don't want to keep upgrading with every new release of SMF. On a great (and I mean Great) platform like SMF, it should be standard as most people expect it on professional forums.

It works perfectly in 2.0.2 :P

Quote from: emanuele on May 03, 2012, 06:19:35 AM
For a mod 2.0.1 or 2.0.2 doesn't make any difference (in 99.99% of the cases, a 0.01 for safety :P).

What it's really difficult for me is to understand what is the difference between a "like" and a reply.
If I like a post I quote it and I state I like it, if I like or I'm interested in a topic I answer there. What does the "like" add to a conversation (that is the main point of a forum)? In my opinion...nothing...

And it's a genuine question, not a criticism or anything similar.

That's why there are mods! If something doesn't fit as a feature it can be a mod, and everyone is happy :)
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: emanuele on May 03, 2012, 08:13:43 AM
Quote from: Nibogo on May 03, 2012, 08:06:37 AM
That's why there are mods! If something doesn't fit as a feature it can be a mod, and everyone is happy :)
I know!
I just want to be sure I didn't miss anything. ;)
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Norv on May 03, 2012, 08:41:36 AM
Quote from: emanuele on May 03, 2012, 06:19:35 AM
What it's really difficult for me is to understand what is the difference between a "like" and a reply.
If I like a post I quote it and I state I like it, if I like or I'm interested in a topic I answer there. What does the "like" add to a conversation (that is the main point of a forum)? In my opinion...nothing...

And it's a genuine question, not a criticism or anything similar.

For example, it's one click vs click+write+click.

It's much easier to click a "like"-type button, and by that, add your rating to the post. And, for the reader, it's straightforward to see the respective post has been rated by 53 people, than to read 53 replies saying only that they like/agree/think it's nice. Of course, if you have more to say than "like"/"agree"/"me too"/"funny one", than you wouldn't use the button (only), you'd also reply. But for a quick statement of "nice one", it's easy to just click once.

Y'know, quickness, make it easy, then move on to the next.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on May 03, 2012, 08:43:06 AM
It does actually cut down on the '+1 / me too / agree' type posts, I find.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: emanuele on May 03, 2012, 09:24:50 AM
So the only advantage is that lazy people can be even more lazy... O:)
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Norv on May 03, 2012, 09:25:41 AM
I thought you'd like that! :D
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Suki on May 03, 2012, 09:41:13 AM
I've been thinking on a third button, along side "reply" and "like",  "reply and like" which of course will perform both actions.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Norv on May 03, 2012, 09:48:10 AM
Quote from: Suki on May 03, 2012, 09:41:13 AM
I've been thinking on a third button, along side "reply" and "like",  "reply and like" which of course will perform both actions.
Too many buttons in the interface, performing similar operations too, are not necessarily a good thing, though. (they're terrible actually, for readability, design, understandability, etc)
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Suki on May 03, 2012, 09:57:14 AM
We already have too many buttons anyway and they all are listed individually instead of grouping them.

I can always use some dropdown menu to hide the like and like n reply under some other button/area, would be a pain to maintain since it involves theme edits, good place for a hook though.

I find it useful, you don't need to click like then reply or vice versa.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 02:28:28 PM
I was under the impression this was a Request for features area.

"Thumbs up / likes" are not for lazy people as implied, making things easier is usually a good thing and a welcomed addition by most people. "Thumbs up" serve a very useful purpose and they are used all over the Internet in every venue from Facebook to professional Forums to blogs and business sites, and on and on. To imply they serve no purpose is narrow minded.

For one (among many reasons) my users (when I had the option on my previous forum), it allows new users who browse and quickly determine which posts / threads/ people are deemed interesting, not by hits, but by a large group of people deliberately declaring them so (usually they were on the money), as opposed to wading through 500 posts to find it's all about the life habits of snails.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on May 03, 2012, 02:56:27 PM
I don't think there is a suggestion of laziness, particularly, more an observation. It does tend to discourage the one liner posts in favour of just using 'likes' while people who want to say more can do so with impunity. Whether that's laziness is an inference, nothing more, but certainly having likes does trend towards discouraging short posts.

As far as being on FB, I'm not sure that it's a truly meaningful metric of popularity for any given item versus any other, but it certainly is a useful barometer for small quantities of likes for comparison of relative importance and important vs unimportant (rather than identifying which items are very vs mostly relevant)

The thing about this area is that being a request for features is that anyone has the right to voice their thoughts about its inclusion, and there are concerns about its inclusion from the people who have the power to implement it. Some concerns may be more important than others.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Nightwish on May 03, 2012, 03:12:06 PM
Quote from: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 02:28:28 PM
I was under the impression this was a Request for features area.

"Thumbs up / likes" are not for lazy people as implied, making things easier is usually a good thing and a welcomed addition by most people. "Thumbs up" serve a very useful purpose and they are used all over the Internet in every venue from Facebook to professional Forums to blogs and business sites, and on and on. To imply they serve no purpose is narrow minded.
Just because something is "all over the place" doesn't make it useful and doesn't mean it serves a purpose.

For the record: I've implemented a "like system" in my SMF fork, just because I thought it was fun to do and to give people something to like. It's a bit like "panem et circenses" in ancient Roman culture - not necessarily a brilliant idea, but it serves at least one purpose: It makes people happy :)
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 03:35:02 PM
Quote from: Nightwish on May 03, 2012, 03:12:06 PM
For the record: I've implemented a "like system" in my SMF fork, just because I thought it was fun to do and to give people something to like. It's a bit like "panem et circenses" in ancient Roman culture - not necessarily a brilliant idea, but it serves at least one purpose: It makes people happy :)

Makes sense. Obviously it is a feature you liked, or at least wanted to implement on your forum. Which "basically" is my point, that it is a feature that is useful and (generally speaking) desirable by most forum owners. The mods (such as they are) speak to that, but poorly.

Of course (as with everything) there are a minority of people who deem it redundant and denigrate its usefulness. I understand that. The problem is, they usually have the loudest voice and discourage meaningful points / counterpoints. Just saying it is for lazy people serves no purpose other than that intended. ??? It's not rocket science.


Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: emanuele on May 03, 2012, 03:36:01 PM
Quote from: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 02:28:28 PM
I was under the impression this was a Request for features area.
And (I hope) I'm free to comment these requests. Am I?

I wanted to understand what was useful for and I got an answer (more from numbers, I did my homework and I'm pretty confident they are a good representation of a real-world case) that's quite different from yours.

I'm not saying I'm against (I'm for sure not a person that would "veto" a decision), there are people that want it? There are people that want to code it? Feel free to submit the code. I'm not the one in charge of accepting it. :P

Quote from: Nightwish on May 03, 2012, 03:12:06 PM
For the record: I've implemented a "like system" in my SMF fork, just because I thought it was fun to do and to give people something to like. It's a bit like "panem et circenses" in ancient Roman culture - not necessarily a brilliant idea, but it serves at least one purpose: It makes people happy :)
That's basically the answer I obtained.
But I don't find it fun to code, so I'll leave it to someone else to code. :P
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Kindred on May 03, 2012, 03:52:02 PM
Quote from: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 03:35:02 PM
Makes sense. Obviously it is a feature you liked, or at least wanted to implement on your forum. Which "basically" is my point, that it is a feature that is useful and (generally speaking) desirable by most forum owners. The mods (such as they are) speak to that, but poorly.

Of course (as with everything) there are a minority of people who deem it redundant and denigrate its usefulness. I understand that. The problem is, they usually have the loudest voice and discourage meaningful points / counterpoints. Just saying it is for lazy people serves no purpose other than that intended. ??? It's not rocket science.


Well, I see it as part of my job to bring a touch of reality into the lives of self-interested folks. :P

but seriously, you claim that " it is a feature that is useful and (generally speaking) desirable by most forum owners"
proof?
The way the folks here usually judge that sort of thing is either by a ton of people chiming in on a request like this, or a mod of that feature being downloaded/installed over a large section of forums.  I actually don't see either one...

and yup... personally, I think that the "like" phenomenon encourages laziness. People are not commenting or contributing, but just clicking a button... it's not encouraging user ENGAGEMENT (actually, I would argue that it actually may DISCOURAGE it, since users will 90% of the time take the easiest (laziest) route)

On the other hand... no one has said that it WON'T be added....   the developers who commented actually asked WHY it should be added (reasons other than "I want it" or "such-and-such has it")
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Norv on May 03, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Please lets keep the discussion nice.

I know there are mixed feelings about a few of these functionalities, "born" from social networks, which may or may not make sense for forums. There are clearly common grounds between social networking and community building software, and there are definitely specific targets and goals too.

This particular one has been requested for ages by our users. I tend to think it has come to the point where expectations of users, shapen up by their experience with many sites over the web (not only social networks, but also blogs and such), are reaching a critical mass or close to reaching it, for forums.

Just to be clear, however: we are extremely unlikely to consider it for SMF 2.1, which has a few new functionalities but it's mainly targeted at strictly necessary enhancements for 2.0 forums. While we may consider it for SMF 3.0, and please, feel free to add more thoughts and experiences on the matter.


What we should do - and I'll look into doing this - is to make an official mod available to the community on this, kept up to date for SMF 2.0/2.1. It would help knowing better how much interest there really is or continues to be. If you - those doing it already - wish to share yours, please feel free to do so, or point me to it if I missed it. The main requirement is only to be Open Licensed, while we may discuss others.

Quote from: emanuele on May 03, 2012, 03:36:01 PM
Quote from: Nightwish on May 03, 2012, 03:12:06 PM
For the record: I've implemented a "like system" in my SMF fork, just because I thought it was fun to do and to give people something to like. It's a bit like "panem et circenses" in ancient Roman culture - not necessarily a brilliant idea, but it serves at least one purpose: It makes people happy :)
That's basically the answer I obtained.

I think this is true. It's not about I don't know what statistics or processing of 'liked' posts, it's mainly about a loose and relaxed wish to click once to express their agreement/interest and be happy they're able to.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Jim Stone on May 03, 2012, 05:39:19 PM
Quote from: N. N. on May 03, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Please lets keep the discussion nice.

I know there are mixed feelings about a few of these functionalities, "born" from social networks, which may or may not make sense for forums. There are clearly common grounds between social networking and community building software, and there are definitely specific targets and goals too.

This particular one has been requested for ages by our users. I tend to think it has come to the point where expectations of users, shapen up by their experience with many sites over the web (not only social networks, but also blogs and such), are reaching a critical mass or close to reaching it, for forums.


Thumbs Up! ;)

  Thank you for saying more "clearly" what I am obviously unequipped to say without causing a stir.


Quote
Just to be clear, however: we are extremely unlikely to consider it for SMF 2.1, which has a few new functionalities but it's mainly targeted at strictly necessary enhancements for 2.0 forums. While we may consider it for SMF 3.0, and please, feel free to add more thoughts and experiences on the matter.

Understood and accepted.  A very intelligent way to approach this issue. I'll just fade back into the shadows and hope for the best. Thanks for your understanding.



Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Shambles on May 04, 2012, 04:37:38 AM
Would it be overstepping the mark to say I like this thead?


Thought so  :-X
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: emanuele on May 04, 2012, 08:12:54 AM
Quote from: Shambles on May 04, 2012, 04:37:38 AM
Would it be overstepping the mark to say I like this thead?
You cannot, you have to like a post! :P  <-- Note the smiley, it means "joke".
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: redone on June 16, 2012, 02:21:40 PM
If it was a seamless modification or plugin then I would prefer to see it done that way. Should you want it then just add it. Many won't add this I am sure.

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on June 16, 2012, 02:25:06 PM
I dunno, I would imagine more people would use this than would use karma.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: redone on June 16, 2012, 02:28:19 PM
Quote from: Arantor on June 16, 2012, 02:25:06 PM
I dunno, I would imagine more people would use this than would use karma.
Maybe karma should be a plugin then! I always thought the karma thing brought around mixed experiences. Most of the big forums don't use it anyway.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: MovedGoalPosts on June 17, 2012, 09:18:36 AM
For many of the more social based communities a thumbs up / thumbs down system could be a benefit.  It certainly stops the me too type posts but enables other forum members to express their views.

If one looks at the apparently popularity (based on downloads) of the thanks type mods, which apply for people who are helping out, there is potential for a likes / dislikes.

One could argue that karma can in some way fulfil this function.  But ask why the main SMF forum, like many, doesn't use karma?  Simple over time karma becomes distorted by those in the "clique" of users that get to know each other, and other useful newer posters will take forever to get there own reputation levels to match the established.  Rarely does karma show to other viewers which posts are being rated.

So a thumbs up / thumbs down likes system may not be for everyone, or even most forums, but it could be a relatively simple feature which a good number of SMF admins would choose to implement.   But I'd be wary about creating many statistics.  User profiles or top poster style things that show "this user has received ### likes" again re-encourages the clique mentality which potentially breaks rather than enhances communities.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on June 17, 2012, 09:28:18 AM
Let me explain the one big difference between karma and likes, and this incidentally holds true for reputation type systems too...

Karma is per user, likes are per post.

Being per user, karma and reputation invariably get distorted over time in a way that likes generally don't, the manifestation of which is the clique syndrome that movedgoalposts referred to. Likes, on the other hand, generally don't get that because while there might be minor cliques who just go round liking everything, what tends to happen is that it just changes the baseline - instead of a popular post being 1-3 likes, it might require 5-10 likes where 0-3 likes is the background noise, so to speak.

(Numbers are really irrelevant, it's more to make the point, basically popular posts will just provoke more likes, and the cliques tend to end up just being a minor undercurrent of background noise of likes)
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: redone on June 17, 2012, 11:23:36 AM
Quote from: Arantor on June 17, 2012, 09:28:18 AM
Let me explain the one big difference between karma and likes, and this incidentally holds true for reputation type systems too...

Karma is per user, likes are per post.

Being per user, karma and reputation invariably get distorted over time in a way that likes generally don't, the manifestation of which is the clique syndrome that movedgoalposts referred to. Likes, on the other hand, generally don't get that because while there might be minor cliques who just go round liking everything, what tends to happen is that it just changes the baseline - instead of a popular post being 1-3 likes, it might require 5-10 likes where 0-3 likes is the background noise, so to speak.

(Numbers are really irrelevant, it's more to make the point, basically popular posts will just provoke more likes, and the cliques tend to end up just being a minor undercurrent of background noise of likes)
Very good description - very well explained. Never been much of a fan of karma to be honest, for all of the above reasons.

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Nightwish on June 30, 2012, 04:44:00 AM
So here is my take on this

http://forum.miranda.or.at/topics/likes-reloaded-or-welcome-post-ratings-2205.0.html

Should give enough flexibility to combine post ratings with a karma/reputation system.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: FrizzleFried on July 23, 2012, 07:21:42 PM
Quote from: Nightwish on June 30, 2012, 04:44:00 AM
So here is my take on this

http://forum.miranda.or.at/topics/likes-reloaded-or-welcome-post-ratings-2205.0.html

Should give enough flexibility to combine post ratings with a karma/reputation system.

So is this something that will be made available for SMF?  I've been looking for a good RATINGS / LIKES mod to run with.  SMFPacks mod is great but doesn't include dislikes.  Post Ratings mod works fine but is very basic.   Topic Rating Bar only rates the topic itself and conflicts with other mods...

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on July 23, 2012, 07:24:27 PM
If you checked out that site, it's a massively modified version of SMF, and it won't be a separate mod for SMF.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: FrizzleFried on July 23, 2012, 07:25:55 PM
Quote from: Arantor on July 23, 2012, 07:24:27 PM
If you checked out that site, it's a massively modified version of SMF, and it won't be a separate mod for SMF.
Yeah... I didn't think so but one could always hope.

:)

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on July 23, 2012, 07:28:52 PM
Well, the code's publicly available IIRC so you could merge it manually but it's not the easiest thing in the world to do.

Honestly I would be quite wary of dislikes. There is a reason I've not added them to Wedge, even though I did add likes: on sites I have seen it, it breeds discontent.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: FrizzleFried on July 23, 2012, 07:42:27 PM
My site is a private site of about 200 friends...think locker-room antics... dislikes are a must.  :)

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Nightwish on July 23, 2012, 07:53:41 PM
Quote from: FrizzleFried on July 23, 2012, 07:21:42 PM
So is this something that will be made available for SMF?  I've been looking for a good RATINGS / LIKES mod to run with.  SMFPacks mod is great but doesn't include dislikes.  Post Ratings mod works fine but is very basic.   Topic Rating Bar only rates the topic itself and conflicts with other mods...
Well, it's a fork of SMF but the differences are already big. Since it's open source, it should still be possible to extract the code and make it a mod for SMF, but it will be a fair bit of work. And no, I'm not going to do that.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: climber on November 05, 2012, 11:16:07 PM
FWIW I'd really like to see a LIKE per post button I've looked at the SMFPacks one and its cook, but overkill IMO. A simple thumbs up/down is all I need.

Thanks
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: nend on November 05, 2012, 11:36:23 PM
Quote from: climber on November 05, 2012, 11:16:07 PM
FWIW I'd really like to see a LIKE per post button I've looked at the SMFPacks one and its cook, but overkill IMO. A simple thumbs up/down is all I need.

Thanks

Sorry for hijacking the thread but you can try my Post Karma, it is basically a bolt on to the existing Karma system to give it the ability to give karma per post.

http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=3474
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: climber on November 06, 2012, 06:43:25 AM
thanks... but it doesn't quite do what I want. I don't want the personal Karma at all, and I do want the post like/dislike.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: dimspace on February 05, 2013, 05:45:23 PM
theres the free thank you mod
http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=257

that does the job just dandy, you can thank a post. Isnt that hard to modify it to read "like" instead of thank you. (and dislike is just asking for trouble)

As for Karma. personally I think karma should be scrapped, its idiotic, and smiting just causes problems amongst your forum members.

it does annoy me somewhat that this forum doesnt have thank you or like, i keep going to press it and its not there. :S
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: climber on February 05, 2013, 08:59:44 PM
thanks for the link. that does look interesting. I'll check it out when I get some time.

the Karma feature just sux so bad, I can't even say how much. it really causes hassles when someone abuses it and some folks just do. a simple LIKE for individual posts is really something that I'll bet a lot of folks would like. I don't understand all the negativity about it. oh well...

[sigh]
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: emanuele on April 04, 2013, 05:03:37 AM
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=501121.0
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: FrizzleFried on April 04, 2013, 11:56:49 AM
Quote from: climber on February 05, 2013, 08:59:44 PM
thanks for the link. that does look interesting. I'll check it out when I get some time.

the Karma feature just sux so bad, I can't even say how much. it really causes hassles when someone abuses it and some folks just do. a simple LIKE for individual posts is really something that I'll bet a lot of folks would like. I don't understand all the negativity about it. oh well...

[sigh]

FWIW... any user that gets bent out of shape over "karma" isn't a user I want on my forum...

It's the internetz people... why so serious?

;)

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Irisado on April 04, 2013, 12:36:15 PM
Like/karma are both as bad as each other in my opinion.  They can be easily abused, and I don't think that either should ever become default features.  Like, in particular, is the domain of awful social networking sites, and blogs, and fora are supposed to be different to these.  Let's not try to mimic them is my advice.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 12:42:19 PM
QuoteThey can be easily abused, and I don't think that either should ever become default features

Well, karma has been a default feature of SMF for most of a decade if not a full decade.

Likes can be abused but it's far harder to actually abuse them from experience.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Irisado on April 04, 2013, 12:52:19 PM
Quote from: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 12:42:19 PM
Well, karma has been a default feature of SMF for most of a decade if not a full decade.

Yes, you're right.  It's just that most SMF fora I visit never had it, or turned it off, so I forgot that it was default.  I'd bin it as a default feature if it were up to me.

QuoteLikes can be abused but it's far harder to actually abuse them from experience.

Maybe, but I think that they discourage people from posting.  People are naturally lazy, so if you have a like button, instead of posting a substantive comment when they agree, they may just click a button instead.  This goes against the philosophy of a forum in my opinion, since the whole point is to actually post, not to click like buttons.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 01:01:20 PM
QuoteYes, you're right.  It's just that most SMF fora I visit never had it, or turned it off, so I forgot that it was default.  I'd bin it as a default feature if it were up to me.

I think it's actually off by default too. Certainly is in 2.0. And yes, one of the first things I actually binned in Wedge.

QuoteMaybe, but I think that they discourage people from posting.  People are naturally lazy, so if you have a like button, instead of posting a substantive comment when they agree,

History shows that it hoovers up the '+1' and 'I agree' posts and that those who write a substantive comment would still naturally have written a substantive comment. Certainly that's what we've found on wedge.org.

Also note that there's no dislike button which means if you want to disagree, another round of posts ensues.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Irisado on April 04, 2013, 01:05:47 PM
Quote from: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 01:01:20 PM
History shows that it hoovers up the '+1' and 'I agree' posts and that those who write a substantive comment would still naturally have written a substantive comment. Certainly that's what we've found on wedge.org.

It may well do, but I just view that as another form of spamming.  I'd rather just delete said posts as spam, and explain to members that they need to post more substantive comments to comply with the rules of the forum in question.

QuoteAlso note that there's no dislike button which means if you want to disagree, another round of posts ensues.

A good point, although most debates seem to centre on disagreement, so I think that most people would post if they held a different view in any case.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 01:09:50 PM
QuoteI'd rather just delete said posts as spam, and explain to members that they need to post more substantive comments to comply with the rules of the forum in question.

Experience suggests that tends to discourage people from posting at all if they feel their comments may be deleted if they're not 'meaty enough'.

QuoteA good point, although most debates seem to centre on disagreement, so I think that most people would post if they held a different view in any case.

Bingo.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Irisado on April 04, 2013, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 01:09:50 PM
Experience suggests that tends to discourage people from posting at all if they feel their comments may be deleted if they're not 'meaty enough'.

I'm old school on this, in that my belief is that if you don't have anything meaningful to say, don't say it at all, and that if you (impersonal) can be bothered to do is click a like button, then a forum isn't for you (impersonal).  I recognise that not everyone is going to agree with that, but it doesn't take much to make a decent forum post.  'I agree because...' doesn't take long, and is far more beneficial to forum users as a whole.

If I started a discussion, and lots of people just clicked a like button, I'd be really irritated, because I want to know why they agree.  Quality trumps quantity in my book.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 01:21:28 PM
That's the thing, if you agree with something, what's to say about it? There have been plenty of times on wedge.org where I've suggested something, maybe with screenshots, and there's not really a lot to say on the side of 'I agree with that because...' unless it's really strongly felt. Which isn't often.

QuoteIf I started a discussion, and lots of people just clicked a like button, I'd be really irritated, because I want to know why they agree.  Quality trumps quantity in my book.

Depending on the subject matter the reply could very quickly become 'I agree because everything you say makes sense' which is no more meaningful a reply in the scheme of things than a like.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Irisado on April 04, 2013, 01:29:05 PM
I can find plenty to say when I agree with something, but then I tend to be strongly in favour of things that I agree with.

There's also the case of partial agreement, where you agree with a lot of what's being said, but want to expand on certain points with more detail.  I used to see this a lot, but I think that people are just becoming too lazy, because of Facebook, blogs, and Twitter, and want to do everything via clicking a button.  I just don't like it, and I fear (perhaps unreasonably) that the whole concept of a discussion forum would be killed off if such a feature became default.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 01:39:38 PM
Again, experience suggests that people who have something substantive to say - partial agreement is also partial disagreement - will say it whether or not a like button is present. This has certainly been our experience on wedge.org where I added a like feature months and months ago.

We're still getting far more posts than likes ;)

I'd also note that XenForo actually added a facility to track the ratio of likes to posts for a given member and perhaps give them a trophy based on it.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Irisado on April 04, 2013, 01:44:29 PM
Quote from: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 01:39:38 PM
We're still getting far more posts than likes ;)

This is important.  As long as this remains the case, then I can't counter your points.  I'm worried that this wouldn't be the case elsewhere, but I am a great believer in qualitative cases, so I might take a look and see for myself :).
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: FrizzleFried on April 04, 2013, 01:50:52 PM
Funny thing...

I run a facepunch rating mod tied in to the advanced reputation mod...

... and it's one of the more popular features of my forum.... of course I also have a badge system running that awards people for participating in posting, rating, and other such "fun" things.  It all depends on the type of forum you run.  My forum is a private "fun" forum designed to entertain and for the users to have a good time.  I have an arcade,  I run online chess,  I have the quiz mod running...

I have only 250 users or so thus far... but I'm averaging 312 posts a day.  Not bad for all private... no guests...

I'm happy... they're happy... we're all having fun.

Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 04, 2013, 02:04:43 PM
QuoteIt all depends on the type of forum you run.

This, in spades.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Kindred on April 04, 2013, 02:09:34 PM
honestly, I can see the point ot the like (call it thumbs up, or whatever)
Personally, I don't think I'd ever use it on a forum that I run...

There is some support for having it...  I'm just not sure it belongs in the core....   I mean, how many people actually use the existing mods?   We know that very few actulaly use karma, as it stands ...
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: dimspace on April 27, 2013, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: Kindred on April 04, 2013, 02:09:34 PM
honestly, I can see the point ot the like (call it thumbs up, or whatever)
Personally, I don't think I'd ever use it on a forum that I run...

There is some support for having it...  I'm just not sure it belongs in the core....   I mean, how many people actually use the existing mods?   We know that very few actulaly use karma, as it stands ...

but its so much easier for me to click like than say I agree with you..
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 27, 2013, 08:22:27 PM
Why do few people use karma? Because it's abusable. It's not based on posts, it's based on people and it has no accountability in the core (after a short period of time, the entry of who did what is gone, though there are mods for that)

Why do people prefer likes? Because they're tied to posts (and each person can only like a post once) and they're accountable (you can see *who* liked a post)

As for usage, partly it's down to presentation, partly it's down to support and partly because one of the actually-good not-crippled *free* mods is not even *on* this site.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: xrunner on April 27, 2013, 08:28:38 PM
Quote from: Arantor on April 27, 2013, 08:22:27 PM
Why do few people use karma? Because it's abusable. It's not based on posts, it's based on people and it has no accountability in the core (after a short period of time, the entry of who did what is gone, though there are mods for that)

If it weren't for the mods that create accountability, I wouldn't use Karma.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 27, 2013, 08:29:53 PM
Likes are also really cool when you can combine them with other things, like... say... a XenForo style notification system ;D
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: dimspace on April 27, 2013, 08:57:37 PM
Quote from: Arantor on April 27, 2013, 08:29:53 PM
Likes are also really cool when you can combine them with other things, like... say... a XenForo style notification system ;D

see, now if there was a like button...

with notifications its very good, if i get a notify someone has liked a post i often go to see which post is was.. dont know why.. guess if you know what people like you can do it more often.. its also nice when someone likes your post.. kinda..

but agree with everything said on karma, its on the person not the post, it doesnt get recorded, it just turns into a popularity contest.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 27, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
Then I'd get a notification that you'd liked my post. :P
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: emanuele on April 28, 2013, 04:12:25 AM
But nobody else on the same topic would know that something happened (the like) unless all the participants are notified. :P

BTW, like == thank you (i.e. "like mod" == "thank-o-matic mod", yes it's a bit old and probably not perfect, but is free and does most of the things people are searching in a "like" just changing few strings of text), am I wrong?
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on April 28, 2013, 10:01:50 AM
QuoteBut nobody else on the same topic would know that something happened (the like) unless all the participants are notified.

But they'd see it next time they viewed the topic.

Quotebut is free and does most of the things people are searching in a "like" just changing few strings of text), am I wrong?

Yup, you're pretty much there.

Though I still maintain there is a perfectly good free mod that does pretty much everything you'd need... just not on this site due to differences between the author(s) and the management here.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on November 26, 2013, 04:48:36 PM
2.1 has a likes system (but NOT dislikes) built in.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: welshdog on May 19, 2014, 01:10:45 AM
Quote from: Arantor on November 26, 2013, 04:48:36 PM
2.1 has a likes system (but NOT dislikes) built in.

This may sound crass but there have been many posts in this thread I would have liked to 'like' had it been possible. Part of the 'like' concept is the notion that someone has said everything you want to say and you wish to support that point of view or perspective without adding to it.

I understand the 'participation principle' but there *are* occasions in which one would simply like to give support without entering directly into the discussion.... which is what brought me to this thread! Seems several of my forums members would like to see it implemented, tho admittedly they also want a 'dislike button as well.

There are no doubt many hundreds if not thousands of us out here with no programming skill just waiting to see if someone would release a Mod that gives the functionality we're requesting (perhaps placing it on the left side under the other icons such as PM, email etc.).

I *do* understand you purists, and your fear of becoming to much like 'social media', however it has to be said that the sites such as Facebook are so popular simply *because* they are so much more user friendly. Posting images. videos, posts, etc etc etc can be done with a few clicks on Facebook etc. Doing it it within SMF is much harder... yes more rewarding... but harder!!

My opinion for what it's worth is that if we don't provide what our members ask for then soon(ish) we'll have no members!!

A 'like' button might seem the thin end of a Wedge (no pun intended Arantor) but it *would* enhance the usability of a forum and potentially increase participation, even if minimally!!
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Kindred on May 19, 2014, 06:36:44 AM
I think you have misunderstood...

1- I am not a "purist" and I don't "fear" anything like that.
2- my disagreement with the concept of "likes" has nothing at all to do with "becoming like social media"  Forums *ARE* social media. They were around before stupid things like FB and twitter, and hopefully will continue when those have gone the way of the dodo, because  those other sites actually prevent and discourage the full exchange of ideas.
3- You hole up FB as something that is "user friendly"? Well, holy mackerel... can I have some of those drugs you must be taking?
FB is one of the ***WORST*** examples of user friendly that I have ever seen. As far as I can tell, they make UI and UX decisions by consulting a magic 8-ball (or maybe monkeys)
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on May 19, 2014, 07:07:22 PM
Facebook doesn't have dislike either, nor is it going to get it :P

I won't deny that SMF is not user friendly - it isn't. Unfortunately you're right about the purists who don't want major changes, and even more modest changes have been dismissed out of hand because 'SMF has always done x therefore SMF must always do x'.

QuoteA 'like' button might seem the thin end of a Wedge (no pun intended Arantor)

Of course there was a pun intended. The fact I'm the one who added it to Wedge in the first place, and subsequently added it to SMF (differently to appease's Nao's raging OMG ARANTOR IS STEALING FEATURES) is of course of no relevance. The fact that neither implementation has a dislike feature is also completely intentional.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: komp on January 29, 2015, 10:01:51 AM
this is a feature i have been asked about many time by our forum users
thought i would finally start looking into it and arrived here
i see from this topic v2.1 apparently contains the feature but still shows in development in downloads
any idea when it will be out of development? has it really been in beta since nov 2013?

thanks
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Arantor on January 29, 2015, 10:04:40 AM
No, 2.1 didn't enter beta until late 2014/early 2015, I forget exactly when. Do of course remember that it is built by people in their spare time - no-one is paid to build SMF, so it has to fit around things like jobs.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Kindred on January 29, 2015, 10:12:40 AM
and the next release will STILL be a beta (beta2)

it's not ready for RC
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: komp on January 29, 2015, 10:21:57 AM
ok thanks, i'll take a look at some mods
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: FreeholdMarshall on July 24, 2015, 04:51:46 PM
Hi! I'm fairly new to SMF and recently set up my own SMF forum. I'm an old hand with VBulletin forums as a site Admin.
I first encountered the Like/Dislike feature in Vbulletin around 11 years ago and I have to admit I had mixed feelings about it then. If the system is implemented as it is in VBulletin it is combined with a user reputation system, it is NOT tied in with post count so spamming out likes or dislikes really serves no benefit to the user doing such. The Dislike feature is very much subject to abuse and I agree with Arantor that the Dislike button should be disabled for that reason. In VBulletin the number of Likes or Dislikes received by a user has a cumulative effect on that users forum reputation. Also Vbulletin combines post count along with user reputation to add weight to likes or dislikes given by users. A like or dislike given by a user with a high level of reputation combined with a high post count can carry a lot of weight. Out of over 10,000 users on one site over the years I've only seen the system abused by maybe two or three users. Overall I believe the adding a Like feature to SMF would be desirable and if available it would be a feature I would add to my site.
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: pikkabbu on November 23, 2016, 03:26:02 PM
Quote from: Nibogo on May 03, 2012, 12:10:35 AM
In fact there's one:

http://www.smfpacks.com/page/sa=likes

Hello.

No way to find out whare I can download this mod.

Anybody can help, pleae ?
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Shambles on November 23, 2016, 04:25:19 PM
There's a "buy" button at the bottom of the linked page. You may need to register as a user before you purchase...
Title: Re: Thumbs Up (Like / Dislike) for Posts?
Post by: Antes on November 24, 2016, 07:35:31 AM
Quote from: pikkabbu on November 23, 2016, 03:26:02 PM
Quote from: Nibogo on May 03, 2012, 12:10:35 AM
In fact there's one:

http://www.smfpacks.com/page/sa=likes

Hello.

No way to find out whare I can download this mod.

Anybody can help, pleae ?

http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1890 - can be free alternative.