(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)Dear Community, developers, professionals,
I am one of the sort of no specific and professional skills, more a idea sharer in on many places.
What about making the forums generally bilingual runnable?
From my small understanding, it must be possible to generate (on wish) a twin post in the different language as a parallel column, so to speak.
The "naive" idea. When you post you are able to chose which language you write (for example it's a german/english board). After you send the post, a automatical twinpost will be generated, which is connected with the original.
...index.php?topic=64.msg201#msg201en (original by sign) and ...index.php?topic=64.msg201#msg201de (generated)
if nothing is chosen, just without language sign.
It would be also imaginable to add more languages in this way. (Also to let the member select which should be shown)
The generated one could be supported by a machine (such as google translate or an independent, or not). This generated topic, can be modified by the poster as well and assigned in (automatical generated, translated by the poster, voluntary translator, approved). So everybody knows how to value the translation.
I guess such a tool would be also very helpful for general language developments of the software it self and would have great process opportunities for translation projects in a multitasking manner. Maybe its also helpful to break this or that language barrier.
As told before, I am not very much into the whole stuff only some general understandings.
Thanks a lot for the interest and eventually hints, if such already exists. Not to speak if some genius developer would start such a project and make it real.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Wow... I think this would need a LOT of work, to achieve, if it's even possible.
It would also have to rely on what I think of as "Machine translations" and HUGE dictionaries.
The result, too, would be... er... crap, in many situations, I believe.
As an illustration, have a look at this:
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=fr&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.simplemachines.org%2Fcommunity%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D497834.0%3Btopicseen
The French is... er... "dubious", shall we say?
Handy little add-on for Opera, though, if you're interested.
https://addons.opera.com/en-gb/extensions/details/in-place-translator
It's pretty good. I suspect other browsers will have something similar.
Having the ability to machine translate posts into your desired language is requested from time to time. There might even be a mod for it somewhere. As the Grey Kitty points out, such translations tend to be rather rough. Certainly it would not be rocket science to store the language in use (say, 'en') when the post was written (or even let the translator take its best guess at the source), and invoke Google Translate on the fly when the displayed forum is, say, 'fr'. Well, you'd have French words, anyway... To put them side-by-side would take a new theme, but could be done. To do it "gloss" style (align paragraphs or even sentences) could even be done. If someone wants to try this and offer it as a theme/mod, no one is going to stand in their way. However, the demand for such a thing is probably quite limited (especially given the quality of the translation), so I don't anticipate a stampede for the entrances, nor do I see this being a built-in feature.
I still have trouble with English...
...and I'm English! :)
yup... there's a reason that we don't allow our translation teams to use google translate.
(And just to give a shout out - our translation teams and our native language support group are some of the best I have come across - well done guys and gals)
BTW: the google translate API is now a paid service...
https://developers.google.com/translate/
What did Mark Twain say about trying to learn German (in The Awful German Language)? He suggested that it be radically reformed, and "unreformed, the language be laid to rest among the dead, as only the dead have time to learn it" [from memory, may not be exact quote]. I lent a copy to my German teacher, and she said she had never laughed so hard.
I notice that a lot (not "alot") of native English speakers have a great deal of trouble with their native tongue! It is one of the most difficult languages, in the sense that there seem to be more irregularities to memorize than there are adherents to the rules!
German was the easiest language that I ever learned! English is, essentially a germanic derivative.
Eh, this really isn't needed. Let us, for a moment, put aside the issues connected with machine translation and its inherent inaccuracy.
Some browsers already offer a 'Translate to English' right click menu option (Chrome does, at least, but I wouldn't be surprised if other languages do)
On top of that, there are already mods for doing such translations should the user want to install them.
Thanks a lot for all your replays, hints and oppinions! (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
I am aware of all this machines, but actually I do not really appreciate them, because they simply increase the laziness to learn if we are honest. Second is, that they are more confusing if the participator of a bilingual forum use them. You will not know where you are, especially if you use the forum much for translation works. I had this tool but I uninstalled it quickly. It does not force leaning and mindfulness.
The idea of integration of machines is merely secondary but maybe helpful for the general idea.
It's issue next to translation work is, like if you meet people of different languages. Even you are not able to communicate direct your self, it is possible to make some voluntary work and translate the posts of others and so the stream can go on, without a disturb.
As told, its lesser to make it more consumable but to make communication more accessible as well as to learn with it.
Maybe a generally differently viewpoint.
Not professionals speak always easy, but so far I had seen, that the whole database has a good and simply structure and this let me believe that it could be not that much work, if one latches on the right level.
This mod would be also good for a separate moderation stream for example and not only useful for different languages. If you would moderate a forum, without getting direct into the discussion for example.
Just ideas... (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fwell_sangham.gif&hash=bbcd4e5c0d8f4a3f04e4cc5ebb561fbae99bacb8) Thank you very much for interest and solicitousness.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
(I had start to learn English for communication about 2,5 years ago and it was that forums made me to do that and forced me to learn. Still very bad, but much better than at the start. (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fhappy_sangham.gif&hash=90532ff894b22f04cdd1bcda9a18bd3668ee7b24))
Quote from: Kindred on February 18, 2013, 09:54:24 AM
German was the easiest language that I ever learned!
Spelled exactly as it sounds, nouns capitalized, regular syntax rules, small vocabulary (compared to English, anyway).
QuoteEnglish is, essentially a germanic derivative.
And that's where the similarity ends. Anglo-Saxon may be the base, but add in a lot of Scandinavian influences (courtesy of the Vikings) and a loss of gender and inflected endings, mix in a huge amount of Latin via French (William the Conqueror), let simmer for a few centuries and a Bard or two, import and/or make up tens of thousands of words (from North American aboriginal
canoe to Urdu
khaki), and you end up with the most mongrelized yet exquisitely expressive language in the world, with the largest vocabulary. Also, probably the most difficult to get right.
Yes Mr.Phil, 100% German is a indo germanic language and the root languages are very structured (similar to pali, Sanskrit and the most SEA-languages). English has many mannerism also on a raw level, not to speak about the fine and the old usage is already lost I guess (Latin is also very exact). The grammar of English is maybe easier as other languages, but also just on a raw level, I guess.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Es una idea interesante.....
Oh wait, which language am I supposed to be replying in again :D?
While I think that the idea is possibly okay in theory, in practice, I'm not a fan. For a start is very problematic to get it right from a translation perspective, but second, the screen is going to be awfully compressed with two versions (or more) of the same thread in different languages side by side. (That's what I understood you to be suggesting).
I think that the translators here have enough work to be going on with for the moment too without adding something like this to the possible list of future features.
Maybe it would be a support for the translators. Thanks for your thought, Irisado! (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
And yes, the place is the only thing I would worry about, but I guess it would be possible to make it visible or not (so not a constant permanent present column, which one you prefer and translators and correctors can play angles and devas aside.)
Just a quick patchwork
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2Fimages%2Flayout.png&hash=71beca28304ae1e36c71198005fa5968129984d1)
As the native poster you could chose which language you post. And your stream will be the "big one"
and how the hell do you expect that second language translation to be fulfilled if not by a machine translator?
Do you actually expect a live person to review or translate every post in English into another language? On a forum that gets 10,000 posts a day?
Also, what if my forum supports 15 languages?
What if I am not viewing on a widescreen monitor? What if I am viewing on a 4" phone? That would be completely unreadbale.
Hi Kindred! If it is a community with people who are working together on a project, there should be no problem. If it is just a consuming community, the normal google translaters and so on will fit. As maybe not said, it is not meant as a tool for fun boards or boards where is no interest in languages.
(http://also,%20what%20if%20my%20forum%20supports%2015%20languages?)
You could chose the languages you work on, that should be possible. The twin post just have extensions. No need to be interested in them. But for translation work, for example a wonderful possibility, even within a community of 50 languages. You could collapse or collapse a second or no other as your own stream.
(http://?) Yes, why not. I do that, but it's a little hard if you just do it in one column and you need to be on side all the time, while here you could make things on and on, or not.
(http://on%20a%20forum%20that%20gets%2010,000%20posts%20a%20day?)
I don't think that such forums have much participators who are interested in such, but why not. No need to make separate language sub forums and much lesser work. (if more languages are wished!)
(http://?)
I guess there is enough place for two columns, I have no widescreen either. And as thought, collapse would be a way to do not disturb them who are not interested in such.
Thanks for your thought and involvement! (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Sorry, but no. You have seriously underestimated the EFFORT this would take.
Take our forum here for example. We support more than 20 languages.
We have native language moderators who provide support int their native language.
If they had to waste time translating questions from english to their language and form their language back to english, they would never get any real support donw in their own language
What you ask is just not reasonable for a forum of any size at all.
And no... even with a wide screen, I keep the window to full-screen. If you reduceds that, even by a third to account for the other language window, it would quickly become difficult the read. Viewing it on my phone would be completely unusable
Putting aside the manpower issue, there is still the code issue, what you want requires a good amount of code changes (code changes that will interfere and annoy other users who do not wish to use this feature) and build entire UIs to handle the tools to be used by translators, not to mention your database size will be increased by X where X is the number of languages you want to offer support.
Your idea might suit your site, sadly, an idea suiting your site isn't enough to qualify for a feature request, try in the mod request board instead.
As the Miss said, idea may sound good but its not something that is expected be used by a lot. Presentation is not any issue, one can use javascript based tabs (just an idea) and lots of other way to show. However, if you get someone to do that for you , you may contribute it to community as mod.
Quote from: Kindred on February 18, 2013, 02:04:39 PM
Sorry, but no. You have seriously underestimated the EFFORT this would take.
Take our forum here for example. We support more than 20 languages.
We have native language moderators who provide support int their native language.
If they had to waste time translating questions from english to their language and form their language back to english, they would never get any real support donw in their own language
What you ask is just not reasonable for a forum of any size at all.
And no... even with a wide screen, I keep the window to full-screen. If you reduced that, even by a third to account for the other language window, it would quickly become difficult the read. Viewing it on my phone would be completely unusable
Dear Kindred, as said, it does not make sense for a forum where is no wish to interact with people of different languages. In regard of the moderators, they would work side by side and not just in their borders.
I am aware of a different issue, that might be not so conscious. English native persons are not that much interested in such things, as others usually mostly speak a little English, but thought of Chinese language increase that could be a urgent issue soon.
Not to speak that I think that there is no forum software which serves with such a tool.
QuoteViewing it on my phone would be completely unusable
How is it now when you communicate in two languages?
Maybe it's more an issue of seeing no need in more languages at the same time?
But I fully understand your argumentation.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: Suki on February 18, 2013, 02:11:55 PM
Putting aside the manpower issue, there is still the code issue, what you want requires a good amount of code changes (code changes that will interfere and annoy other users who do not wish to use this feature) and build entire UIs to handle the tools to be used by translators, not to mention your database size will be increased by X where X is the number of languages you want to offer support.
Your idea might suit your site, sadly, an idea suiting your site isn't enough to qualify for a feature request, try in the mod request board instead.
Dear Suki,
of course I have no detail understanding of such issues. But from my understanding it would be somehow a side tool and does not need to go into the general structure. I guess one even would not need to be deeper integrated in the main database, but could have as side store. (a naive thought)
Quotenot to mention your database size will be increased by X where X is the number of languages you want to offer support
Yes of course, but thought of having same topics and some problems and some issues in many languages in sub forums on a "multilingual" (actually just subforums) forum, I guess at the end it will be smaller if such a use is possible. People from different languages would work closer with each others. Nobody here has an idea of what's going on in the Spanish forum, maybe 3 Topics of the same issue at the same time and nobody would merge them.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: Ricky. on February 18, 2013, 02:22:14 PM
As the Miss said, idea may sound good but its not something that is expected be used by a lot. Presentation is not any issue, one can use javascript based tabs (just an idea) and lots of other way to show. However, if you get someone to do that for you , you may contribute it to community as mod.
I understand that and I mentioned it in the OP already. I know that there is work behind, much work. I would do that, but to be honest, I do not even know what javascript is and I guess I am a little to old now to step into this field while others are professional and familiar with it.
Just ideas, maybe useful. Manageable is all, just needs the desire to do it and sometimes some helping hands. As it seems is the community here famous for it.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
QuoteDear Kindred, as said, it does not make sense for a forum where is no wish to interact with people of different languages. In regard of the moderators, they would work side by side and not just in their borders.
This is the fundamental problem. You simply cannot rely on machine translation to be accurate, and it is all too easy - even common - for people to misunderstand when such things are in use, even to the point of causing offence when none is intended.
QuoteI am aware of a different issue, that might be not so conscious. English native persons are not that much interested in such things, as others usually mostly speak a little English, but thought of Chinese language increase that could be a urgent issue soon.
It only really works if someone speaks both languages to a modest degree, simple as that.
QuoteNot to speak that I think that there is no forum software which serves with such a tool.
Of course there isn't. Aside from the technical objections (like the performance hammering aspect), there are sociological ones. How can I rely on a machine translation for accuracy? I can't.
Given how prone even native speakers are to misunderstand (as demonstrated multiple times here today between two native English speakers, though one is British, one is American), encouraging cross language communication in the same space is not the best idea.
Quoteof course I have no detail understanding of such issues. But from my understanding it would be somehow a side tool and does not need to go into the general structure. I guess one even would not need to be deeper integrated in the main database, but could have as side store. (a naive thought)
Either way creates a non trivial performance cost to be considered.
QuoteYes of course, but thought of having same topics and some problems and some issues in many languages in sub forums on a "multilingual" (actually just subforums) forum, I guess at the end it will be smaller if such a use is possible. People from different languages would work closer with each others. Nobody here has an idea of what's going on in the Spanish forum, maybe 3 Topics of the same issue at the same time and nobody would merge them.
It would work mostly the same if it were all in one board, actually. People that don't speak one language would have no real understanding of what the other posts say unless they're translated and unless you have a huge team of people, this just isn't going to happen in any practical way.
QuoteJust ideas, maybe useful. Manageable is all, just needs the desire to do it and sometimes some helping hands. As it seems is the community here famous for it.[/quot]e
It's not manageable for something that is a core feature in future SMF versions. It might be manageable on a single site with dedicated people.
Even here finding enough people to translate SMF itself in to different languages is hard - and SMF is smaller than an entire board's worth of posts.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
QuoteDear Kindred, as said, it does not make sense for a forum where is no wish to interact with people of different languages. In regard of the moderators, they would work side by side and not just in their borders.
This is the fundamental problem. You simply cannot rely on machine translation to be accurate, and it is all too easy - even common - for people to misunderstand when such things are in use, even to the point of causing offence when none is intended.
Dear Arantor, you are right, its not possible to relay on machines only, so (if) they should be only the first level. You would maybe have a first transplantation, which is visible as "caution, just machine translated". The causes of offenses are endless and it's lesser a question of language as a matter of assuming. On the other hand, if you have two languages, it would minimize assuming maybe, as you would have two references.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PMQuoteI am aware of a different issue, that might be not so conscious. English native persons are not that much interested in such things, as others usually mostly speak a little English, but thought of Chinese language increase that could be a urgent issue soon.
It only really works if someone speaks both languages to a modest degree, simple as that.
Yes of course, it would be no win if people would generally not interested in gaining more understanding of a secound language.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PMQuoteNot to speak that I think that there is no forum software which serves with such a tool.
Of course there isn't. Aside from the technical objections (like the performance hammering aspect), there are sociological ones. How can I rely on a machine translation for accuracy? I can't.
As told and seen, it (the sociological) is all also a matter on a one language board. A second column would be even a good moderating tool, people need translations even in their native language, to not misunderstood.
(http://)
Its a tool for those who what to broaden there understanding and to bybass the problem of languages if the forum has more aspects as just socializing and fun sharing.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PMQuoteof course I have no detail understanding of such issues. But from my understanding it would be somehow a side tool and does not need to go into the general structure. I guess one even would not need to be deeper integrated in the main database, but could have as side store. (a naive thought)
Either way creates a non trivial performance cost to be considered.
Taken the community here for example, I am sure that would minimize all costs and work over all very fast and effective. Specially here on board for example it would be amazing.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PMQuoteYes of course, but thought of having same topics and some problems and some issues in many languages in sub forums on a "multilingual" (actually just subforums) forum, I guess at the end it will be smaller if such a use is possible. People from different languages would work closer with each others. Nobody here has an idea of what's going on in the Spanish forum, maybe 3 Topics of the same issue at the same time and nobody would merge them.
It would work mostly the same if it were all in one board, actually. People that don't speak one language would have no real understanding of what the other posts say unless they're translated and unless you have a huge team of people, this just isn't going to happen in any practical way.
I guess that is just a matter which could be solved with membership or similar like ignoring. One could add a second language or not. The stream would run, and there would be more cross flow like now and lesser active transferring, it would run side by side.
Especial if you develop something together, cross lingual, you could stay on topic in many languages. It might be that their are discussions in the same stream, you would not see as long as you do not turn on a different language, somebody able to speak two would connect them immediately.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PMQuoteJust ideas, maybe useful. Manageable is all, just needs the desire to do it and sometimes some helping hands. As it seems is the community here famous for it.
It's not manageable for something that is a core feature in future SMF versions. It might be manageable on a single site with dedicated people.
Yes, maybe here on this board. There would be the best to start and here is the place where many are interested on cross information. I guess SMF started exactly in a surrounding of dedicated people how wanted to make something different.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PMEven here finding enough people to translate SMF itself in to different languages is hard - and SMF is smaller than an entire board's worth of posts.
Maybe a good tool to manage such was missing, even if you start a topic, you would have automatically a good amount of sorted translations soon. You could even use desire to know it, as a force to grow it.
Thanks a lot for your care and will to give inputs and hints!
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
QuoteOn the other hand, if you have two languages, it would minimize assuming maybe, as you would have two references.
This all still assumes that humans are going to translate it. For general use, it isn't going to happen. For a one-off site, it might, but is not likely.
I would note that two sources of translation - even machine translation - is no guarantee of anything.
QuoteAs told and seen, it (the sociological) is all also a matter on a one language board. A second column would be even a good moderating tool, people need translations even in their native language, to not misunderstood.
I do not see how it is an effective moderation tool. If someone is not reasonably proficient in that language, they can't possibly moderate effectively.
If you then involve human translation, you have to trust the human translator 1) is translating it accurately without influencing it, 2) isn't adding their own spin to it and 3) doesn't miss any edits that come along later on.
QuoteTaken the community here for example, I am sure that would minimize all costs and work over all very fast and effective. Specially here on board for example it would be amazing.
Or not. It certainly wouldn't minimise the hosting costs, it would raise them up as far more computation power would be required. FAR more.
As for minimising work, that's unlikely. The English content vastly dwarfs most of the other languages here.
But then multiplying the gigabytes of data by the dozens of languages supported by SMF would make it enormous and unwieldy in any fashion. There are almost 3,300,000 posts here, and even if we say conservatively 50 languages, that would produce 165 million posts, which is three times larger than even the *largest* SMF forum to date.
Even if we cut it back to the publicly visible matters, and being generous, we'll assume that amounts to 300,000 posts we're cutting out (and it isn't that high), that's still 3 million posts = 150 million posts to be stored on the system and managed. It would at least double the server cost here. And I'm being conservative on all counts.
QuoteI guess that is just a matter which could be solved with membership or similar like ignoring. One could add a second language or not. The stream would run, and there would be more cross flow like now and lesser active transferring, it would run side by side.
No, it couldn't, not really. It would very quickly get out of hand.
QuoteYes, maybe here on this board. There would be the best to start and here is the place where many are interested on cross information. I guess SMF started exactly in a surrounding of dedicated people how wanted to make something different.
Or not.
QuoteMaybe a good tool to manage such was missing, even if you start a topic, you would have automatically a good amount of sorted translations soon. You could even use desire to know it, as a force to grow it.
No, there are very good tools for managing this for SMF's own software translations, which still take weeks to perform, and SMF's internal content is much smaller than a typical forum's content.
I get the impression you're not entirely understanding what I'm saying.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 09:49:04 PM
QuoteOn the other hand, if you have two languages, it would minimize assuming maybe, as you would have two references.
This all still assumes that humans are going to translate it. For general use, it isn't going to happen. For a one-off site, it might, but is not likely.
Dear Arantor,
There are always helpers. And we know that there are people who do it, otherwise SMF would not have reached so much countries in that way. Of course it will be not general. Like now, and it works. Maybe it could work much better as helpers are going to be lesser and lesser in our days.
QuoteI would note that two sources of translation - even machine translation - is no guarantee of anything.
Of course, but that is even a matter if there is just a single language. Coherence needs the will for attention, which is not normal if people just search for what they like to eat in this very moment. So a general concentration and investigation problem. But that is below all issuse of interacting and not so related to the point here, I guess. Don't forget, we have no practical references but 1001 assumings how it could be or how people would react or use it.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 09:49:04 PMQuoteAs told and seen, it (the sociological) is all also a matter on a one language board. A second column would be even a good moderating tool, people need translations even in their native language, to not misunderstood.
I do not see how it is an effective moderation tool. If someone is not reasonably proficient in that language, they can't possibly moderate effectively.
If you then involve human translation, you have to trust the human translator 1) is translating it accurately without influencing it, 2) isn't adding their own spin to it and 3) doesn't miss any edits that come along later on.
Yes, therefor the assigns as "Generated", "translated" (inkl. Name, Stars and strips for trust...), "approved" (by a hero). That is a base where you can assume the relevance of the translation interactive and aside of topic questions. Better as any google translation could ever work, as there is most just a single person, who wants to know a single thing and no improvement in the special case.
Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 09:49:04 PMQuoteTaken the community here for example, I am sure that would minimize all costs and work over all very fast and effective. Specially here on board for example it would be amazing.
Or not. It certainly wouldn't minimise the hosting costs, it would raise them up as far more computation power would be required. FAR more.
As for minimising work, that's unlikely. The English content vastly dwarfs most of the other languages here.
But then multiplying the gigabytes of data by the dozens of languages supported by SMF would make it enormous and unwieldy in any fashion. There are almost 3,300,000 posts here, and even if we say conservatively 50 languages, that would produce 165 million posts, which is three times larger than even the *largest* SMF forum to date.
Even if we cut it back to the publicly visible matters, and being generous, we'll assume that amounts to 300,000 posts we're cutting out (and it isn't that high), that's still 3 million posts = 150 million posts to be stored on the system and managed. It would at least double the server cost here. And I'm being conservative on all counts.
I would tell you that it totaly goes the other direction in an amazing way. See this discussion here. It would be avaliable already within the whole community and we would have even solutions already. In fact many discussions are going on in the same way on many languages board and sometimes never find to another language. There is of course (as the main team is english speaking) an outfolw from english to other languages, but very less flow back. So it could be well that other streams have already developed such things and we would not know generally and would depend on an angle who shares it further.
So its a outflow prossess and as told in regard of Asian languages for example (who are generally not so much into sharing back) the english flow will dry out soon and less will come back.
Here I like to demonstarte a sample how it would work.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FAdministration%2Fbilingual%2Fflow1.jpg&hash=7a3f3790c07a58b50e11f34258e39423a58f4c45)
While you would not have struggles with other languages, if you have fade them out, you would even benefit form feedback of other users with other languages soon. I estimate that the time for solutions will be 10 times quicker and the over all produce of content will reduce gradually right from the beginning for a multi user board like her.
Not to speak about adminstration. You would not need 20 technical supporters (each for every language) and you would not need to find people with two professions at one time. The requirement of stuff for administration would be very quick smaller, a potential which could be put more into interacting in the shear of ones talent. So a perfect co-existing. Not to speak that moderators and Administartors would work more side on side and develop a common way of process and behavior.
QuoteQuoteI guess that is just a matter which could be solved with membership or similar like ignoring. One could add a second language or not. The stream would run, and there would be more cross flow like now and lesser active transferring, it would run side by side.
No, it couldn't, not really. It would very quickly get out of hand.
It would be not out of the hand, even discussions in other language would be available, which is not the case now. Your ideas could flow away very fast and develop further unseen. Not in the case of parallel languages.
QuoteQuoteYes, maybe here on this board. There would be the best to start and here is the place where many are interested on cross information. I guess SMF started exactly in a surrounding of dedicated people how wanted to make something different.
Or not.
A journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step. Makes no sense to assume, wheter one would reach or not for many years. A vision in mind, and a resolve to do it, would be enought, next to the first step, a new and a new.
QuoteQuoteMaybe a good tool to manage such was missing, even if you start a topic, you would have automatically a good amount of sorted translations soon. You could even use desire to know it, as a force to grow it.
No, there are very good tools for managing this for SMF's own software translations, which still take weeks to perform, and SMF's internal content is much smaller than a typical forum's content.
I do not know all tools, but they are not meant for interaction I guess. They are just designed for better consuming, but not for giving an taking in a good relation I guess. That giving and taking things is what makes SMF possible and let it grow.
QuoteI get the impression you're not entirely understanding what I'm saying.
That is your biggest enemies, our assuming. It might be that I am not a good explainer, and of course I am no native english speaker and know my handicaps. So more than thanks for the patient you offer in my direction.
Maybe I could share some useful thoughts back as a gift of gratitude as you share your time to make me understand your point, and knowledge.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
The problem is that I'm looking at this from after several years of running a forum, not to mention far longer experience in writing software, and no matter how wonderful the discussion might be, the consequences on a technical standpoint alone far outweigh the returns I think you'd ever see, and to be honest, those are diminishing returns with every language you try to add to this.
It's been interesting, but I think I'm going to bow out. There's only so many ways I can try to explain the flaws I see in this based on my experiences of running sites (including participation in multi-language sites)
I understand that totally Arantor and I am totally aware, that I am a newcomer. But such a situation has sometimes also the possibility to step over such things we call usually organisational blindness. Could! Not to say that it is so. Don't get me wrong on that point.
I deeply appreciate your patient in regard of a untrained, and unexperienced person like me. That is how I would regard my self in all that specific and technical issues.
Knowledge is something that is transferable, vision and insight is something one needs to see in one self. Only that it has a meaning and if it would not exist in you, you could not see it, even if I tell you.
I made a little graphic how it (the situation above) would look for the singe consumer according to his settings.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FAdministration%2Fbilingual%2Fflow2.jpg&hash=2b6da01bb2661f4eca63bb2d70e051a011a4253e)
(http://it's%20been%20interesting,%20but%20I%20think%20I'm%20going%20to%20bow%20out.)
No, please not. It's a step by step journey. Thought of the possibility that we could activate the intention on many language board at the same time, it would be just a matter of short time to find co-workers and people of interest.
So here (in the multilingual frame) you could focus on your profession, no need to worry that you would not find co-workers (that is the mentality of this board as well, but very limited in regard of language interaction).
In regard of the data volume, it is thinkable that only translated or approved generated translations come into the database incl. the content. All the rest is generated from by the single user on his own side. Just the place it self exists.
Maybe these are some useful additional thoughts.
And here a maybe motivating side stanza:
The Bonds of Fellowship
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2013
"There are these four grounds for the bonds of fellowship.
Which four? Generosity, kind words,
beneficial help, consistency.
These are the four grounds for the bonds of fellowship."
Generosity, kind words, beneficial help,
& consistency in the face of events,
in line with what's appropriate
in each case, each case.
These bonds of fellowship [function]
in the world like the linchpin in a moving cart.
Now, if these bonds of fellowship were lacking,
a mother would not receive the honor
& respect owed by her child,
nor would a father receive what his child owes him.
But because the wise show regard for these bonds of fellowship,
they achieve greatness and are praised.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Although I am concerned about multilingual since Feb. 2005 that I started using SMF and although I have been involved in Tiny Portal development with main task it's use with many languages simultaneously I must say that having a forum like SMF working with machine translation will lead to trouble.
SMF with UTF-8 can have navigation menus in many languages, also language specific boards (as in this site) can be created.
With a CMS system like Tiny Portal it is possible to have different blocks and articles versions for different languages, content must be in control by someone who knows the language used well enough.
Translation links can be offered, noticing that machine translation might be misleading.
Having a conversation that works through machine translation can easily lead to hilarious or even disastrous results. Misunderstandings are usual in forums even in native language.
Machine translation has improved tremendously, yet leaves much to be desired. It's good because one can understand a good percentage of content, however translation results are not at all granted.
So, SMF can be multilingual, adding a CMS with language options, like Tiny Portal, can help and have specific language boards and categories.
Thanks for your word, agridoc!
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham_sw.gif&hash=78809ed37e51219567d354217c7e73d9f77b9cb0) Yes of course, Tiny Portal serves a great opportunity for forum runners with will and potential for content for many languages. How ever, even that is just a dwelling side by side, but no real interacting possibility. So its merley nothing else as a save border between those of different languages, as far as I know it. Of course you can switch but at the end its all in the guarding hands of the runner.
This idea would be a try to go behind such individual leaded possibilities and would open a possibility to cross act on the topics. Of course machines are not the best and personally, I never use them. But for this idea they could be starter to enter also a different language stream. So it is open to the individual in all directions.
Machines themselves lead people just to "stultification" and laziness. They are just used to get the desired food and in this frame of intention it's naturally that trouble go along the way. (just test the quick translate tool, but I guess the intentions for translation works and serving others in this regard will be zero very soon)
Btw, much thanks for developing TP, really great tool!
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham_sw.gif&hash=78809ed37e51219567d354217c7e73d9f77b9cb0)
QuoteBtw, much thanks for developing TP, really great tool!
Not having myself the necessary code knowledge and/or time, I mostly contributed guiding and challenging Bloc and later IchBin™ as lead developers, as well as others, testing and pushing towards my multilingual (and some other) goals, sometimes to the limits of being embarrassing ::). The credits for development go to coders.
Discusion however is quite different than menus, blocks and articles content presentation in different languages. I see no practical way for constant reliable operation.
For some special cases, if reliable translators exist, a Language Tag mod combined with Multilingual Board Name and Description, extended for Topics could help but I doubt if it worths the effort.
OK, so we agree that machine translation of posts gives undesirable results, and this would throw a tremendous burden on a dedicated translator staff. How about The Third Way? Allow anyone to translate to other languages, Wiki style? If they make a bad translation, hopefully someone else can correct it, and eventually it settles down to something that everyone more or less agrees on. Of course you would need a way to report and ban certain members who demonstrate that they are poor translators or can't be trusted to do an honest job at it. And all member-translated posts would have a prominent notice reminding readers to take the content with a grain of salt. Would that work?
Dear MrPhil,
that was the idea actually, yes. It had just the "advertiser/starter" of the unproved machine translation.
A field of possible merits.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
I've translated before, both for my degree, and as part of my old job. It's very time consuming, and not easy to do. Regardless of whether it's possible in terms of the coding, I just can't see it working.
Consider how long it takes for a translator to translate SMF as it stands. If the idea would be to have every single post translated into multiple languages, you would just end up burning out the translators. The amount of work which would be involved just makes my head spin from thinking about it.
If you want a multiple language forum, it's better just to have separate sections for other languages, as is the case here.
Well, Irisado, that should be a solution for the problem. There is no great harvest without wise work before. Struggling in the way it is now, or put some effort into new ways. That is the idea.
Have you inspected the graphics below a little and the actual reason behind. Its a minimizing of work, data and information problems and a increasing of accessibility and multitasking.
Do not misunderstand it, I don't think of all content should be translated, but the possibility of cross language use. Of course I think it could be as well a perfect environment for specific translation work.
As a translator, it would be good to beg the programming gurus to have such as a "deal" for quicker translation. (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsmile_sangham.gif&hash=5618df321057e4ea54cb176b48417a0f8bff0e47)
Thanks for your imput, Irisado
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Johnann,
you seem to be missing the point, I think.
There is no struggle, currently. The was we have it, with individual boards in separate languages work extremely well.
On this forum, for example, we have the main support in English and then the native language suppoort boards - each in their own language. This system works very well and has a low maintenance effort - people can ask/asnwer in English or in the native language.
What you are asking is essentially, to increase the maintenance effort of the native language support providers by a factor of 50 or more... (and, actually, some of them would be cut out, since they can and do provide excellent support in their native language, but don't understand English well enough to provide any actual translation)
There is no significant benefit for ALOT of effort.
Also, your concept on how peopl learn a new language is flawed. Most people do not learn a language by reading one next to the other.
QuoteWhat you are asking is essentially, to increase the maintenance effort of the native language support providers by a factor of 50 or more...
Kindred, why do you think so. If one likes to stay in his native language, there would be no problem at all. And the special native language supporters would maybe not that much needed any more as there is direct connection the the main stream.
If we would search the hole board for for similar problem and similar issues but cut of each other by language I am sure that 50% of the topic in the special language sections would be unnecessary. Not to speak of the accessibility increasing for each separate language and the flow to the gurus here and there.
If I would not be able to read English I would not have that change to find so much infos, not sure what maybe Swedish might hide. Of course we are search engines spoiled and with it addicted to such ways, but - as the sample of wiki was brought - I guess there is no doubt in regard of the success in with such a concept.
There is much wast of time and energies if it is just a treadmill flow "what comes up next will be done" of course many boards a working in this way but its rather of entertaining customers and lesser about a co-work community.
Just some thought of a fledgling, and to try to clarify the different perspectives.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
QuoteIf we would search the hole board for for similar problem and similar issues but cut of each other by language I am sure that 50% of the topic in the special language sections would be unnecessary.
Nah.
Given how many people ask the same questions over and over in English, it's not going to cut any of that out. But it *will* increase the server use and cost more to run - and that isn't going to change, no matter how much you might believe otherwise.
QuoteI guess there is no doubt in regard of the success in with such a concept.
For a limited set of reference material, sure. For general discussion? No.
Even if you don't get into the amount of effort required to *translate* things, you still have to consider *storing* the translations you do have. At a minimum that's 50 times EACH POST on this site.
I dont see that Arantor, as I had try to explain below before (posts with graphic)
Let me simulate the usual case now in a multilingual forum
There is a new issue or a news on one board:
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FAdministration%2Fbilingual%2Fflow4.jpg&hash=74a47c660d490ee51d8d2c7dea5b45ddc1135a94)
7 topic, 85 posts, longer time span, no secure of contributing and fixing demands
( I am sure in realty it is much more extreme, ask someone how is well in two languages about the knowledge exchange when it is not organized by the main group of runners)
Over all it could be that many are never informed (if there is not a organized group - stuff) and there is actually no or very less packflow to the inventor for other boards (no feedback from outside = one way flow)
Every translation work would be very ineffective and needs to be ordered or requested. No real space for spontaneous serving and the fact that many things are made dopple twice or even more often and the workers do not know of each other. The one with good connections to the head will "win". I am sure there are many mod developments made but at the end no use, as there was another inventor already (just to speck for the case of this specific board)
In the case of the vision:
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FAdministration%2Fbilingual%2Fflow3.jpg&hash=3f42ddb7ec96105b6bce884196bed21fd569ff52)
1 topic, 40 post, 100 placeholder, shorter time, back flow, secure that every language has the content and accessibility.
Every topic is available at least as a machine translation at the level of OP. So every language sector is able to jump on the topic from the beginning.
There will be naturally follow in all directions and all will be collected in one topic.
I would say that the overall time and the over all data need will reduce (for the same amount of solving) by 50% and the needed stuff in the same amount.
Of course you will have your specific supply system here, but it is all dependent on the language support stuff and all conections between the gurus will depend on them. While on the other side, the language stuff is always busy to contribute content to the needed place, not just simply translate useful things, maybe the starters and the solving things.
Not to speak of the time from the raising of an issue till the fixing or the "costumes" There is no need to translate all, that will depend on the demand of the language group.
Moderators could focus on simply topic merging and the gurus would have there possibility to focus more on there main work as well. No much need of multi talents (language, moderating, and developing at the same time)
I really don't intent to go into the structure of SMF board function here, I just take it as a maybe useful sample.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
QuoteI would say that the overall time and the over all data need will reduce (for the same amount of solving) by 50% and the needed stuff in the same amount.
FOR THE UMPEENTH TIME NO.
IT WILL NOT REDUCE THE DATA NEED. AT ALL. IT WILL INCREASE IT FAR BEYOND WOULD IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE. Even placeholders take up space.
QuoteEven placeholders take up space.
Hmmm... there is the question if they are actually needed. As long as there is just occasional generated content on demand, no need to have them.
But I guess I bother you already a little. Please pardon my hardheadedness.
It will grow if it is a good way.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
From a translation point of view Johann, I just don't think that you understand the problem.
Say you have an active live forum, with multiple threads per hour, with multiple replies. Let's just say, for example, that you want those translated into all the languages of the EU member states. That's over twenty different translations for each post, and translation work takes a long time, especially if specialist language is involved, which is highly likely in many forum environments. How are you going to get these posts translated quickly enough to have a side by side screen option?
A forum is a living thing. It doesn't just sit there dormant while translators go to work, it constantly has new posts being made (assuming it's active), so I just cannot see how this would work.
If you have different language sections, everyone posting in those sections is writing in the language required, thus saving a huge amount of translation work, and having multiple languages side by side isn't really going to be of interest to that many people.
As Kindred said earlier on, even those of us who have studied foreign languages didn't learn in this way, and as a Spanish tutor, I would never dream of teaching the language in this way, as it's a completely ineffective way of learning a foreign language, and tends to turn people off.
I hate to be so negative, but I just can't see what you're trying to achieve with this from a content point of view, and that's before we factor in the technical issues which others have raised above.
Quote from: Irisado on February 20, 2013, 10:53:00 AM
having multiple languages side by side isn't really going to be of interest to that many people.
In a support forum, I can see it being useful. I don't go browsing through non-English boards because I don't speak other languages. Once in a while, someone posts a non-English question to one of the regular (English) boards, and if it piques my curiosity, I might run it through Google Translate and see if I can understand it and help out*. Being able to browse other boards in, say, English, even if the posts were originally in another language, would be useful for supporting the community (i.e., the pool of people who can help is much, much larger).
* and when I Google translate back into the original post's language, I usually end up getting slapped down for such a bad translation...
We still have the problem of who will take the time to do a proper translation of a post to various other languages. You could pay a bunch of professional translators to do nothing but translate, or you can let the community do it, Wiki-style. I can't see burdening volunteer translators (such as SMF's language pack translators). Maybe the original translation
could be done by machine, and then encourage the community to polish the translation (Wiki).
If you're not interested in actually doing (or checking) the translation, there's no point in showing them side-by-side if all you want to do is give an answer (in any language). Of course, if the translation is bad you may end up being told that your mother wears army boots or you may misunderstand the question and give a wrong answer. All translated posts should clearly indicate whether it's a machine translation, or if a professional/experienced volunteer, or N community members have gone over it.
Surely it would be a huge burden to the translators if they had to translate it in real time? Not doing it in real time would defeat the whole object of the exercise as far as I can see.
As for Google translate, it's too inaccurate to even act as a guide for translators in my opinion.
Thanks Irisado, thanks MrPhil for your hints and involvement.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fahh_sangham.gif&hash=217ac0f16587ce5036889d5813a7c5ee0846a8d4) Let me try to explain a vision of function in a general use (does not mean that all or a specific board would use all its possibilities).
Sample case: a mainly English board with many English, but also French, German and Spanish participator low participating of 10 other languages.
The board has a general setting of installed languages and a board language. If the option of multilingual post is enabled there would be an automatically produce of twins of the OP in the selected languages.
In the specific case (as there is general much interest of french, German and Spanish), this languages are enabled for the full use of the function.
This function can be upgraded for specific langauge board (if there are such). In or simulation case there is a subsection for Spanish. On this board is Spanish the default language and the default language of the main board is running here as well.
The member is able to set a second preferred language which allows him to see always a twinpost in the second language.
Settings of this board:
installed languages (en, es, fr, de, it, cz, and 10 others)
multiLP enabled languages (en, es, fr, de), mashineTwin is enabled
board default language is en
Subforum for Italian, mashineTwin is disabled (there is a much active translation work, or a translation board)
The general settings allow a automatically twin generation with machines or "empty twins".
OP will be created with the language extension (http://ssgfi.sub.uni-goettingen.de/projekt/doku/sprachcode.html) of the member default language (if the default language of the member is not enabled for mulitLP
* Member_A (en) opens a topic in the main board ...topic=192en.msg454en#msg454en
* machineTwin is enabled and so there is the creation of for the OP
...topic=192en.msg454es#msg454es
...topic=192en.msg454fr#msg454fr
...topic=192en.msg454de#msg454de
(generated post have the information of "machineTwin" original have the information of "Origin" an, translated "trans" and assigned as "assig". This information is visible in the Post as well the language of the "origin")
This language post are visible according to the settings of the member. Member_B has set Spanish as default and Italian as his second language.
So he will see the generated ...topic=192en.msg454es#msg454es and the generated view of the post ...topic=192en.msg454es#msg454es in Italian in the folding second language window. (beside of the OP or translated posts it's always new generated, and not saved anywhere)
If you move a post for example form the Spanish sub board to the main board, missing twins (according to the settings of the board will be added as ) "machineTwin"
...topic=197es.msg454es#msg454es & ...topic=197es.msg454it#msg454it moved to main board as new Topic will generate
...topic=197es.msg454en#msg454en
...topic=197es.msg454de#msg454de
...topic=197es.msg454fr#msg454fr
...topic=197es.msg454es#msg454es
If there are any replay of people who have another language set as the default "machineTwin" the extension is coming to existence for this post as well and is available for others if wished.
In regard of arching and cleaning the database from time to time, there should be a task like: "clean all "machineTwin" OPs older then 2 month for languages with no replay" for example. That would solve the problems of unnecessary date spend as there are of course always topics which will not used much or are very specific to the certain language. There are of course more variable ideas how to keep it small.
The last post, if such function is installed, should also generate "machineTwin" in the default languages of the board. They would be also cleaned down to the default board language if there is not language replay in between, or for the languages where is no replay in between.
_____-
It seems that the "=0.4"- brain release beta version of the feature works already well and is able to be presented and tested well now. (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsmile_sangham.gif&hash=5618df321057e4ea54cb176b48417a0f8bff0e47)
Please feel invited to load it to your own simulation sections. If you have troubles to load it, try to empty the cache of temporary files first.
As there is no detail navigation support released please feel to request if any loading problem arouses or a special setting is not visible. (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fhappy_sangham.gif&hash=90532ff894b22f04cdd1bcda9a18bd3668ee7b24) Test it within your own board.
Of cause that would have a trembling effect on the whole board possibilities and culture. Worthy to shake?
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsanghagift_sangham.gif&hash=9f0ebd02ffe2199b13e9e9a9141c41d62804364c)
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Even if the data is cleaned, there is *still* a fairly stiff performance overhead of having parallel data structures that will end up being queried. It's tantamount to all the discussions around threaded topics for its performance penalties.
Please can a moderator finally move this to somewhere useful? There is precisely zero chance this will be implemented in core SMF (this is the feature requests board after all) and if implemented on one specific site it might convey some small benefit in return for some serious performance management but it is technically infeasible to foist all users with that nonsense when it just won't help them.
Dear Arantor,
There is no parallel data structure, there is only are side datas. No impact on the whole system. The idea to save all of that in the extension is just as a sample. It could be stored within the content of the main data of the post as well.
I do not know which way would be better.
QuoteThere is precisely zero chance this will be implemented in core SMF
Of course I do not know much, but I do not understand this definitely assuming claim.
Quote(this is the feature requests board after all)
And that is the reason why it is here.
Let me ask you if you are used to speak or work in more as one language? Maybe it more of an imaginary kind. It would not have impact on user who are not interested in such. The second window could be collapsed
*generated* posts could be set of not visible and even post from different language origin could be ignored.
I see a huge possibility for interaction and back flow as well as a huge possibility to reduce the datas in relation of general demand. Of course it could increase the participating generally to a high extend but that does not go hand in hand with the related data use out of bad organized system.
If I really have significant errors in my thinking out of not knowing important things, please be so compassionate to elaborate them. It does not help me (and maybe others as well) to say simply "It is not possible" or "not worthy".
Thanks for your patient and it would be great if you could explain the reason further.
QuotePlease can a moderator finally move this to somewhere useful?
It could be well that I did not explain it good as English is not my native language. As there is still more elaborating and explaining, as well as involvement, I guess it is good to keep here (put that is just a personal opinion). If I have over steeped a ruling position an structure within the decision makings here on board, please for give me, but let me know its ways at well.
Maybe we can continue the discussion here even it is not imaginable for all but that is the reason why we get involved in such at least or not?
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: Johann B on February 21, 2013, 12:25:17 AM
Dear Arantor,
There is no parallel data structure, there is only are side datas.
What does the word parallel mean again?
QuoteNo impact on the whole system.
i'm sorry, you are mistaken, no matter how you might thnk you are not. Relational database like MySQL only work one way, and not how your brain does. There is absolutely no way to implement this in a relational database eithout it being parallel stored. Or REALLY screwing up performance.
QuoteThe idea to save all of that in the extension is just as a sample. It could be stored within the content of the main data of the post as well.
I do not know which way would be better.
Like I said, other major issues. Accepting the reality in front of you would be a start.
QuoteQuoteThere is precisely zero chance this will be implemented in core SMF
Of course I do not know much, but I do not understand this definitely assuming claim.
Quote(this is the feature requests board after all)
And that is the reason why it is here.
Oh FFS. This board is for features for all SMF powered sites. This is NOT SUITABLE FOR ALL SITES.
QuoteLet me ask you if you are used to speak or work in more as one language?
Let me ask you if you are understanding anything I am saying. I understand what you're trying to do. I understand it will be convoluted to use and will make the entire site slower for every user without fail.
Quote
If I really have significant errors in my thinking out of not knowing important things, please be so compassionate to elaborate them. It does not help me (and maybe others as well) to say simply "It is not possible" or "not worthy".
I would if I didn't have to spend 3 or 4 attempts at trying to be understood. Unless I were to explain relational database theory, any explanation would be worthless, just like all the time I already wasted being ignored. It is possible but it has bad side effects but you're not listening to me.
QuoteQuotePlease can a moderator finally move this to somewhere useful?
It could be well that I did not explain it good as English is not my native language. As there is still more elaborating and explaining, as well as involvement, I guess it is good to keep here (put that is just a personal opinion). If I have over steeped a ruling position an structure within the decision makings here on board, please for give me, but let me know its ways at well.
I will explain it again, then. This board is for features for every SMF site. This is not suitable for all sites, who mostly use a single language and have no need of this and certainly do not need the performance troubles associated with this. As it is not suitable for most sites it should not be in this board and should be moved.
Johann,
we are understanding you quite clearly. We understand what you want and even why you want it.
We are syaing that it is not realistically possible to implement from a tehcnical (code and server resource) or a manpower resource standpoint.
You keep arguing the same thing and you don't appear to be listening to us.
And no... this most definitely is **NOT** something that would be a reasonable "feature" for anything other than 1 or 2 sites in the world. So no... this no longer belongs in the feature requests board.
Ohh, I have seen there have been two post (I have not read them now, so please forgive me. I will read them after this)
I try to explain my perception of storing and handling within the content of the post:
Post and content are produced within the information of the default language of the poster. Just as a sample:
<en>What do you think about this idea<en>>"orig" is the content of the original post.
That will be generated (as it is the OP) into a content of:
<es>Qué te parece esta idea?<es>"gen"
<fr>Que pensez-vous de cette idée?<fr>"gen"
<de>Was wissen Sie über dieser Idee?<de>"gen"
So the content of the post ...topic=192.msg454#msg454 as OP of a topic after sending looks like that:
<en>What do you think about this idea<en>>"orig"
<es>Qué te parece esta idea?<es>"gen"
<fr>Que pensez-vous de cette idée?<fr>"gen"
<de>Was wissen Sie über dieser Idee?<de>"gen"
With the settings of the user he can chose the visibility. As soon as one would be translated or aproved it would look like that:
<en>What do you think about this idea<en>>"orig"
<es>Qué te parece esta idea?<es>"trans"
<fr>Que pensez-vous de cette idée?<fr>"prov"
<de>Was wissen Sie über dieser Idee?<de>"gen"
The replay would be maybe on the French one: ...topic=192.msg455#msg455 with such a content:
<fr>pas bon!<fr>"orig"
If a other user (es) would reply to the post, having seen the "mashine translation" it would create the content:
...topic=192.msg456#msg456
<es>no es bueno<es>"gen" recite the quote (incl, the origin of it, like used now) and this new content
<es>por qué?<es>"orig"
The possibility of machine translation could be always visible under the op (or fold-out).
For the post where is no "orig", "prov", or "orig" available in your language, "gen" could be as visible set on default or you would not see the content at all in your language stream.
Important posts could be selected from moderators and forced to be "gen" (as for example the final post)
Of course also very naive explained, but the function or system should be visible. The settings and possibilities are nearly the same as the model of creating additional language posts with extension.
Personally I thing that the "extension solution" is easier to develop later on, as you do not need to go into the content of datas. Also in regard of cleaning, I guess the "extension solution" would be more secure even it would crate more data fields in the first place.
Seeing that in <de>Was wissen Sie über dieser Idee?<de>"gen" in the post topic=192.msg454#msg454 I "D" would need to go into the content of this post and make it to
<de>Was halten Sie von dieser Idee?<de>"tran"
Here maybe useful a quick visualisation how it could look like
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FAdministration%2Fbilingual%2Fmulti_content.jpg&hash=78cab62bcf216915ace70512026cfb7c07b04684)
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: Kindred on February 21, 2013, 12:46:24 AM
Johann,
we are understanding you quite clearly. We understand what you want and even why you want it.
We are syaing that it is not realistically possible to implement from a tehcnical (code and server resource) or a manpower resource standpoint.
You keep arguing the same thing and you don't appear to be listening to us.
And no... this most definitely is **NOT** something that would be a reasonable "feature" for anything other than 1 or 2 sites in the world. So no... this no longer belongs in the feature requests board.
Dear Kindred, dear Arantor,
I understand your views and I also have my assuming how they come to be. If I would be not convinced that this is a very needed stuff (english and european languages are actually a small marked today, even we might feel secure) and that it would open a back flow and not like now a merely flow from a great team down dependent also on it, I would not have introduce it. As well as I am convinced that it will reduce the amount of data over all and has no need to be disturbing for board runner who do not like to use it at all.
How ever, thanks for your patient and interests. Maybe you like to apprciate the idea it self a little and put the topic on a forum where developers of mods are very active, as I think that a light version is even develop able within such stuff like BBC codes and some small other codes within the structure.
I feel a little shocked when I see the topic next to "Add Read Members PM'S"
Lat but not least it should not be understood as a reduce of my gratitude that SMF exists like it is and so many people share there great work I (we) can benefit, actually it's meant as the opposite.
So maybe somebody likes to pic it up, maybe even out of gratitude for the shares he/she had got as well.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quoteas I think that a light version is even develop able
Except that any 'light' version will have all the same performance struggles as a 'big' version.
QuoteAs well as I am convinced that it will reduce the amount of data over all and has no need to be disturbing for board runner who do not like to use it at all.
The reality does not agree with you on this.
Quote from: Johann B on February 21, 2013, 12:25:17 AM
There is no parallel data structure, there is only are side datas. No impact on the whole system.
I think I understand what you mean by 'side data'... think of a topic's original/primary posts being in a chain (ordered), and one or more posts could each have a side chain of multiple translations. Well, you still have to store those translated posts in the database, and their language and translation status, as well as all the additional pointers linking them together. If a topic or post is erased or moved, you need to pick up all the translations, too. Then you need to modify at least the themes, so that they can display side-by-side for translation purposes, or show only topics/posts a given language (if at least one post exists in your desired language), and collapse untranslated posts, and various buttons to show different languages the post is available in and single/side-by-side mode, and offer Wiki-style editing (anyone or only approved translators), etc.
As cool as this would be to have, I have to agree with the others that it would be a huge architectural change to SMF, and probably of limited enough use to not make it worthwhile for the base SMF product. It might even be too pervasive (hitting too many things) to make it a mod. If you think it would be really useful, consider making a fork of SMF that features this. Maybe you could get some people to work on it with you (I'm willing to comment on design and interface/usability ideas, but don't have time to do the coding).
Quote from: Arantor on February 21, 2013, 10:30:41 AM
Quoteas I think that a light version is even develop able
Except that any 'light' version will have all the same performance struggles as a 'big' version.
Yes Arantor, every desire will lead to struggle. The more skillful the desire the more it leads to spheres where desire decays.
SMF would not exist if there was not strong desire developed at the beginning.
With light version I thought of functions like enable of disable smiles. If there is a smart code system for translated text parts it would have no impact on much. That is just another thought bridge for a solution in the frame of my understanding of all functions.
If there is such a code like <en>content<en> it could could be enabled or disabled and a small side application could generate such texts with machine translation.
QuoteQuoteAs well as I am convinced that it will reduce the amount of data over all and has no need to be disturbing for board runner who do not like to use it at all.
The reality does not agree with you on this.
Disagreement is always the reaction if assuming goes against "reality". Or should it be, as long as there is assuming, there is no reality. Reality does not have a point of view. There is just "with this arises that" and from "with this decays that", no opinion at all.
I really appreciate your warnings and I guess you know well why. And I am sure there is big good will behind.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
See, I really have not much intention to make consumer easier consume. It should be more a possibility to give those who like to put an end on consuming a possibility and they dwell within every community.
Quote from: MrPhil on February 21, 2013, 12:13:04 PM
Quote from: Johann B on February 21, 2013, 12:25:17 AM
There is no parallel data structure, there is only are side datas. No impact on the whole system.
I think I understand what you mean by 'side data'... think of a topic's original/primary posts being in a chain (ordered), and one or more posts could each have a side chain of multiple translations. Well, you still have to store those translated posts in the database, and their language and translation status, as well as all the additional pointers linking them together. If a topic or post is erased or moved, you need to pick up all the translations, too. Then you need to modify at least the themes, so that they can display side-by-side for translation purposes, or show only topics/posts a given language (if at least one post exists in your desired language), and collapse untranslated posts, and various buttons to show different languages the post is available in and single/side-by-side mode, and offer Wiki-style editing (anyone or only approved translators), etc.
As cool as this would be to have, I have to agree with the others that it would be a huge architectural change to SMF, and probably of limited enough use to not make it worthwhile for the base SMF product. It might even be too pervasive (hitting too many things) to make it a mod. If you think it would be really useful, consider making a fork of SMF that features this. Maybe you could get some people to work on it with you (I'm willing to comment on design and interface/usability ideas, but don't have time to do the coding).
Dear MrPhil,
thanks for your hints. "consider making a fork of SMF that features this" what does that mean "a fork"?
"I'm willing to comment on design and interface/usability ideas" Thanks for your generous offering, lets see if my own desire is strong enough to even fall into the ways of learning about all this issues or I (we) can win gurus and professionals to lead or co_work on this.
It's great to have even mental co-support and interest. Even a good wish is great support. I keep your offering in mind and its already very useful and supportive.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
QuoteIf there is such a code like <en>content<en> it could could be enabled or disabled and a small side application could generate such texts with machine translation.
And this will lead to other, very serious, performance issues.
No matter how you do it, you cannot avoid performance troubles. I do this sort of thing for a living, figuring out how to do the ridiculous and the insane and make it work. I know SMF's code intimately, I also know computer science extremely well and know just how complicated this is to make.
Please stop trying to convince us otherwise, because all you're doing is pissing us (me, mostly) off.
You cannot change reality just because it seems inconvenient to you. The laws of mathematics and logic are not magically flexible. There simply is no way to do what you're asking for in a convenient and efficient way. The only ways are all slow, impractical and unlikely to work well on any site.
QuoteI really appreciate your warnings and I guess you know well why. And I am sure there is big good will behind.
Apparently you don't because you keep trying to convince me otherwise.
QuoteWith light version I thought of functions like enable of disable smiles. If there is a smart code system for translated text parts it would have no impact on much. That is just another thought bridge for a solution in the frame of my understanding of all functions.
Please stop making assumptions about things you clearly have no knowledge of. That is not how it works. Smileys being disabled doesn't prevent the smileys in the content, nor does it hide them, it simply doesn't run the extra effort of trying to convert text to smiley images. The raw code is still firmly present and it has a material effect, though usually very small.
Please. I have worked on the aspects towards this. I even have a system with a functional [lang=code] tag that works much as you describe and I understand only too well what problems there are with it in reality in terms of performance, in terms of how it can actually *break* a community in some respects.
I do understand what you're trying to achieve but years of programming experience and years of using software simply have shown too many cases of similar ideas in different contexts and why they are unworkable.
Quotethanks for your hints. "consider making a fork of SMF that features this" what does that mean "a fork"?
A fork is a branch of SMF's code. It is to take SMF, give it a new name and change some or all of its code to suit a specific and different purpose.
QuoteI (we) can win gurus and professionals to lead or co_work on this.
This seems unlikely. You have people here, who do this sort of thing for a living, whose job it is to write code, understand databases and so on, telling you why this is a bad idea.
Johann B I will propose a test to do. Before this let's clear some things.
- I see that you come back again and again to machine translation. Try to understand that this can't work in a forum. With two languages there will be many misunderstandings with more languages there will be a mess. less or more doesn't matter.
- You started your topic for bilingual so let's stay on this as a start.
This is a test that I propose
- Find some good cooperators that can translate, have time to monitor the forum and do some moderation.
- In a working forum that you already have or in a new one. Install as or convert to UTF-8 (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=472777.0).
- Install the two languages you intend to use.
- Make a board with a title "Test for bilingual" or what you like best.
- Add your cooperators as moderators for this board.
- They will have to monitor translate titles and messages to the other language. Users should be allowed and respected to write both versions, if they can.
- I believe that both language versions should be visible. This way translators can be evaluated by users and as it's usually said "the original is always best than a translation" (although that might not always be true in a forum ;D )
- Invite people to participate.
- Evaluate the results.
With this simple test you will see in praxis how it goes an/or you might see that it's enough for your needs.
After quite some time you can come back and inform about the results.
Please don't give a reply to me, if you want just take my 2 cents.
Quote from: Arantor on February 21, 2013, 10:57:10 PM
QuoteIf there is such a code like <en>content<en> it could could be enabled or disabled and a small side application could generate such texts with machine translation.
And this will lead to other, very serious, performance issues.
No matter how you do it, you cannot avoid performance troubles. I do this sort of thing for a living, figuring out how to do the ridiculous and the insane and make it work. I know SMF's code intimately, I also know computer science extremely well and know just how complicated this is to make.
Please stop trying to convince us otherwise, because all you're doing is pissing us (me, mostly) off.
You cannot change reality just because it seems inconvenient to you. The laws of mathematics and logic are not magically flexible. There simply is no way to do what you're asking for in a convenient and efficient way. The only ways are all slow, impractical and unlikely to work well on any site.
Where is a will there is a way and I thinks it's just the missing desire and facing much work imbalance in the right direction. I am pretty sure that you professionals are able to do it.
Sometimes we see a great challenge as a offense against us, but that feeling of offense has just to do on the fact that we dislike to go into a challenge.
Confidence is most important, one would not even open the refrigerator if there is no confidence that there could be food inside. Of course is would be blind believe if we think that we find food to eat when we open the laptop. If I give you the feeling that I try to make you believe that you can find food if you simply open the laptop, that please sorry that is not my intention. I love insight but to gain it we need confidence.
Over all I feel more than honored that such a qualified person participates and does not simply ignore it. That would be in fact a sign that it is not worthy to develop.
QuoteQuoteI really appreciate your warnings and I guess you know well why. And I am sure there is big good will behind.
Apparently you don't because you keep trying to convince me otherwise.
Maybe challenging, but not to make your believe or to put you devalue you or others, but to increase all your possibilities. I know that the potential is sleeping behind. You could not image how grateful I am on what all of you did here and how grateful I am that I can use all your work. So please do not misunderstand my word and give them an intention which would be not like that.
The fact that a person like me, who has not a slight knowledge of all this specific programmings, is able to build up a great forum and possibility without the need to ask somebody else, is a great sign that Simlpe machine is a simple machine in the meaning of clear, structured and great performance. Everybody with basic but good understanding of mathematics and logic is able to use it as a great opportunity, a great and solid basement. And I understand that there is much desire and need that this fact will not be disturbed by macerating it with individual wishes.
I guess I understand your point well even trough I am still convinced that there are possibilities. It would be more than overbearing to come as a newcomer and care about foundation or even criticize them. No, no, that is not my intention. That would be of course more then shameless, foolish and harmful.
I guess I can estimate my possibilities on a health level and I know my position well. I move all this upward from a very low position and it's even a honor to be able to do even this.
QuoteQuoteWith light version I thought of functions like enable of disable smiles. If there is a smart code system for translated text parts it would have no impact on much. That is just another thought bridge for a solution in the frame of my understanding of all functions.
Please stop making assumptions about things you clearly have no knowledge of. That is not how it works. Smileys being disabled doesn't prevent the smileys in the content, nor does it hide them, it simply doesn't run the extra effort of trying to convert text to smiley images. The raw code is still firmly present and it has a material effect, though usually very small.
Please. I have worked on the aspects towards this. I even have a system with a functional [lang=code] tag that works much as you describe and I understand only too well what problems there are with it in reality in terms of performance, in terms of how it can actually *break* a community in some respects.
I do understand what you're trying to achieve but years of programming experience and years of using software simply have shown too many cases of similar ideas in different contexts and why they are unworkable.
[/quote]
Of course smiles was maybe a bad sample, but you suddenly got the message what I meant.
One aspect of why most people do not like more languages is that they confuse a little, they are not used to. Its like if you sit in a community where different languages are spoken. If you are not able to understand them you feel insecure and you what them to be turned of.
So this function could within the content and as a "hide" function could solve the problem for those how feel disturbed by different things they are not used to and give the possibility to use it for those who seek to broaden there ways of communication.
QuoteQuotethanks for your hints. "consider making a fork of SMF that features this" what does that mean "a fork"?
A fork is a branch of SMF's code. It is to take SMF, give it a new name and change some or all of its code to suit a specific and different purpose.
I see, now actually not really an interests. That is somehow against the fundamental spirit of SMF, even if the share of this opportunity is at fully within such a great intention.
I have been giving so much and I would find it not proper just to use and perform it simply for my interests. But I can value this gift of possibility. A great Sadhu! (very good, excellent, worthy of praise) toward the developers and people in charge on SMF for such gifts.
QuoteQuoteI (we) can win gurus and professionals to lead or co_work on this.
This seems unlikely. You have people here, who do this sort of thing for a living, whose job it is to write code, understand databases and so on, telling you why this is a bad idea.
In the sense of Forest Gump " stupid is as stupid does" - "Bad idea is as bad ideas does" or it is just a matter of how to come to it. I don't think that multilangage. language accesibility use and cross conversation and the possibility of back flow in a multilingual developing community is a bad idea.
Of course its ways and performing can the stupid, that is why it is important to have rebukes from professionals always on side and this is more than valuable.
So what? Do you like to search for reasons why it is not good, or to search for reasons how to implement. If we are in charge of both, to value the idea and to value the ways of how to perform, we have a lot of struggle, so if there are general doubts on the idea it self, we should work out this before. Otherwise we would have suddenly opponent in our mind as soon as we face problems. Fist there must be the confidence that this aim is useful. If we have doubt on the idea, we will find 1001 reasons why it is difficult and a bad idea. That is not a fruitful base and we will talk for years for things they might have been done in some weeks or even moth.
In usually live money would solve that problem, to lay aside the doubt. Here we have no such bait. I like honest working out and I would not doubt a little that you do it as well. I guess that is the reason why we have so much attrition at the starting point. (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fwell_sangham.gif&hash=bbcd4e5c0d8f4a3f04e4cc5ebb561fbae99bacb8)
The google for Arantor gave me great sentence "Innovate, not Imitate". As you have spoken for "a live time", even you have done real great work already you are not that old it's even not the first third of a average lifetime. Do you think that we generally know all already not even on the half of our ways? I know the danger of thinking that we understand everything already well and that is most dangerous at a point where we are very successful.
To secure that this would not happen Forums and communities with good friends are a gift.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: agridoc on February 22, 2013, 12:09:27 AM
Johann B I will propose a test to do. Before this let's clear some things.
- I see that you come back again and again to machine translation. Try to understand that this can't work in a forum. With two languages there will be many misunderstandings with more languages there will be a mess. less or more doesn't matter.
- You started your topic for bilingual so let's stay on this as a start.
This is a test that I propose
- Find some good cooperators that can translate, have time to monitor the forum and do some moderation.
- In a working forum that you already have or in a new one. Install as or convert to UTF-8 (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=472777.0).
- Install the two languages you intend to use.
- Make a board with a title "Test for bilingual" or what you like best.
- Add your cooperators as moderators for this board.
- They will have to monitor translate titles and messages to the other language. Users should be allowed and respected to write both versions, if they can.
- I believe that both language versions should be visible. This way translators can be evaluated by users and as it's usually said "the original is always best than a translation" (although that might not always be true in a forum ;D )
- Invite people to participate.
- Evaluate the results.
With this simple test you will see in praxis how it goes an/or you might see that it's enough for your needs.
After quite some time you can come back and inform about the results.
Please don't give a reply to me, if you want just take my 2 cents.
Thanks a lot for your share!
Actually I do that already here (http://sangham.net/index.php?topic=9.0) (even just started some weeks ago and a topic which has general not much people who are interested) and I know the difficulty and problems already, I had spend the last 2,5 year mostly on translating to share knowledge to communities who have not much possibilities to access other languages and I know how hard it is to get people out of their simply consuming mood and to open other aspects. Its a walk against usual and will only reach others slowly (most people would not even know their neighbors, now think of getting in contact with different languages of different cultures) much fear and conceit is the ruler. But to break this boarder a little it need possibilities which are proper for people at certain levels. Just a stairway, no need to walk. Someone which more language skills will not have the problem at all and if he is a simply consumer he has a much greater field to feed.
There are many languages which will have not much fruitful places in the futures accept we are able to build drains between them. Otherwise they will all be lost soon, and it will not be english, that will be the main field of getting much food. That is what we need to consider very strong. A wall around a nice place is fine only for a limited time. Then it grows to a prison.
I usually do not step forward if I have not proved all I am able to prove before. So the whole ideas is not simply an imagination but has all its reasons and experiences behind.
Thanks for your ideas and your care. More than praise worthy! I am already aware of the difficulties as it is for sure some ahead of the times, so no follow the times and moods invention.
To get an impression of the urgency of language accessibility, please look here: People across the globe are coming online faster than ever before – and bringing their languages with them. Below are industry stats related to the emerging global internet. (http://de.smartling.com/globalweb#languages-online)
I Asia and third world people with language skills are the most powerful people, they have the key to the food people like. They mostly do not have a global team spirit but know how to feed form the global desire for communities.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Johann, don't let Arantor get you too upset. He may have great technical skills, but he has very poor people skills and comes across as a Grumpy Old Man. He enjoys picking apart everything and explaining in great detail why it's stupid and won't work. I know; he does it to me all the time.
That said, I have to agree that your proposal is probably a non-starter for SMF, at least for the main development. It's a major development effort and will probably be a major performance hit, and likely would not be used by many forums. If you think it would be useful, by all means start your own fork. I think SMF 2.1 is on GitHub, and once you've signed up and have your own account and project, I think it's like one button click to copy it over to your project. Then you can invite others to work on your fork, implementing your concept. If it proves workable and performs well, SMF might even consider folding it back in to the main SMF effort.
P.S. If a post copy is the original machine translation, I would force the side-by-side display of original language and the translation, just to emphasize that this is a very rough machine translation and not something that's been polished by a human. You also need to think about whether to translate all posts to a common language (e.g., English) automatically, or just do it upon request by a member (and save the translated post). You would want to automatically translate at least the subject line, so speakers of other languages can see if a post might be of interest to them. You also need to mark a post as needing retranslation if the original one is edited (assume that new information is added only to the original, by its author or a moderator).
QuoteHe may have great technical skills, but he has very poor people skills and comes across as a Grumpy Old Man. He enjoys picking apart everything and explaining in great detail why it's stupid and won't work. I know; he does it to me all the time.
I see more as encouraging you to avoid wasting your time. As for you specifically, I get a bit annoyed with the 'high and mighty attitude' you demonstrate when you're blatantly incorrect. But you won't be told, even when you are wrong, especially when you have been *demonstrated* to be wrong.
Quote from: Johann B on February 20, 2013, 11:07:42 PM
Sample case: a mainly English board with many English, but also French, German and Spanish participator low participating of 10 other languages.
If the main language is English, why not just have a separate category for other language sections/boards? You would save yourself a lot of work, and those who are bilingual can participate in both the English, and relevant other language, boards on the forum in question.
QuoteThe board has a general setting of installed languages and a board language. If the option of multilingual post is enabled there would be an automatically produce of twins of the OP in the selected languages.
We've highlighted the problems with this though. When you say 'produced automatically', what do you mean? You can't just get an automatic translation, and expect it to be accurate. There are foreign language translators who work on SMF for a reason. If it were so easy, there wouldn't be foreign language packs, developers, translators et al.
This leads us back to the point I made earlier that you would actually need people to carry out live translation, and you haven't been able to explain to me how you could make this work with an active forum.
Quote from: Johann B on February 21, 2013, 03:28:26 AM
Post and content are produced within the information of the default language of the poster.
Automatically, or by a translator?
Quote<en>What do you think about this idea<en>>"orig" is the content of the original post.
That will be generated (as it is the OP) into a content of:
<es>Qué te parece esta idea?<es>"gen"
Just to say that the Spanish is incorrect, as the inverted question mark ¿ is missing from the translation.
Quote<es>no es bueno<es>"gen" recite the quote (incl, the origin of it, like used now) and this new content
If referring back to the noun
idea this translation is also incorrect, because the adjective should be
buena to agree with the gender of the noun.
Quote<es>por qué?<es>"orig"
Again, the inverted question mark is missing.
Assuming this is automated translation conducted by a machine, can you see why there are going to problems now? A human translator would notice these things, but you cannot expect someone to translate forum posts in real time, as they could be multiple paragraphs in length, and there could be multiple threads and replies being posted at once.
I still cannot understand how you propose to make this work I'm afraid.
¡Hola Irisado, ¿cómo está
Quote from: Irisado on February 22, 2013, 12:26:56 PM
Quote from: Johann B on February 20, 2013, 11:07:42 PM
Sample case: a mainly English board with many English, but also French, German and Spanish participator low participating of 10 other languages.
If the main language is English, why not just have a separate category for other language sections/boards? You would save yourself a lot of work, and those who are bilingual can participate in both the English, and relevant other language, boards on the forum in question.
That would be the usual way.
QuoteQuoteThe board has a general setting of installed languages and a board language. If the option of multilingual post is enabled there would be an automatically produce of twins of the OP in the selected languages.
We've highlighted the problems with this though. When you say 'produced automatically', what do you mean? You can't just get an automatic translation, and expect it to be accurate. There are foreign language translators who work on SMF for a reason. If it were so easy, there wouldn't be foreign language packs, developers, translators et al.
"You can't just get an automatic translation, and expect it to be accurate." of course and I am sure, that if it hits the attention, the problem would be solved as soon as one gets interested in the topic.
Did you ever had an interest on reading what is posted on the Arabic forum here? It never meats your intention. As for important topic (taking SMF as sample) it is clear that the specific translators would work on it. (if it is machine, translated or approved; all are able to see). It is even imaginable that you could upgrade the automatic translation for sensible topics.
QuoteThis leads us back to the point I made earlier that you would actually need people to carry out live translation, and you haven't been able to explain to me how you could make this work with an active forum.
That depends on the intentions of the forum team and of course of the availability of people like to get involved. It would be of course nonsense if you enable 50 languages and there is actually just in two languages a good intention as we well as support. That is a thing that will change with people like to engage are coming and going.
QuoteQuote from: Johann B on February 21, 2013, 03:28:26 AM
Post and content are produced within the information of the default language of the poster.
Automatically, or by a translator?
Automatically would be the first step for the OP, like told above.
QuoteQuote<en>What do you think about this idea<en>>"orig" is the content of the original post.
That will be generated (as it is the OP) into a content of:
<es>Qué te parece esta idea?<es>"gen"
Just to say that the Spanish is incorrect, as the inverted question mark ¿ is missing from the translation.
That is right, but in that case it was my ("translators") fault, I thought that is an error this ¿. As it looks I just have learned some spanish specials. DO you think that you would correct it immediately if you see such errors in your language? See, and exactly this "Uhh! Wrong... " is the reason why such things will work and increase the involvement. A board where everybody agrees will be silent. This psychological thing is how such contents like wiki are able to grow. People love to be wiser, better and smarter which is at least not that bad. We learn from each other.
QuoteQuote<es>no es bueno<es>"gen" recite the quote (incl, the origin of it, like used now) and this new content
If referring back to the noun idea this translation is also incorrect, because the adjective should be buena to agree with the gender of the noun.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fhappy_sangham.gif&hash=90532ff894b22f04cdd1bcda9a18bd3668ee7b24)
I had shown the case with memeber D and his correction on the German translation. Thats the way it is, image that 70% of people depend on googe-translate, google themselves and will never have even the possibility to have somebody aside to say "Uhh! Wrong... "
QuoteQuote<es>por qué?<es>"orig"
Again, the inverted question mark is missing.
Assuming this is automated translation conducted by a machine, can you see why there are going to problems now? A human translator would notice these things, but you cannot expect someone to translate forum posts in real time, as they could be multiple paragraphs in length, and there could be multiple threads and replies being posted at once.
I still cannot understand how you propose to make this work I'm afraid.
You would had mad it already. That is the magic with it. (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fhappy_sangham.gif&hash=90532ff894b22f04cdd1bcda9a18bd3668ee7b24) and people will increase joy with it.
An German proverb "Wer schimpft der kauft"
¿Quién regaña compra translated right¿ (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fhappy_sangham.gif&hash=90532ff894b22f04cdd1bcda9a18bd3668ee7b24)
You would love it. Love an hate is on the same coin, that turns the world and that is why discussion board exist. Give them the possibility to learn in this struggle, not just feed them like pets.
Thanks for your hints and involvement.
Gracias por sus consejos y la participación(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: Arantor on February 22, 2013, 11:33:47 AM
QuoteHe may have great technical skills, but he has very poor people skills and comes across as a Grumpy Old Man. He enjoys picking apart everything and explaining in great detail why it's stupid and won't work. I know; he does it to me all the time.
I see more as encouraging you to avoid wasting your time. As for you specifically, I get a bit annoyed with the 'high and mighty attitude' you demonstrate when you're blatantly incorrect. But you won't be told, even when you are wrong, especially when you have been *demonstrated* to be wrong.
Hallo Arantor, hallo MrPhil.
Sicher ist es gut wenn wir uns gegenseitig etwas aufsticheln, das hält das gegenseitige Interesse am Leben. Aber das ist auch gefährlich. Manchmal nehmen wir das dann sehr persönlich. (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fwell_sangham.gif&hash=bbcd4e5c0d8f4a3f04e4cc5ebb561fbae99bacb8)
The four basis of a community (sangahavatthu) are charity, kind speech, kind action, and like treatment of all men.A fact we ignore is, that something that bother us within somebody else is actually a attitude or our self we dislike. A refection, and that is good to think about. That we meet our refection is natural and its always an invitation for a challenge with or self to identify the real roots.
Quote from: MrPhil on February 22, 2013, 09:49:18 AM
Johann, ...
There are many point which I had explained (introduced a possibility) already. Maybe you like to get an overview in reading more of the past conversation. If I missed one thing please let me know.
See at least its like enable and disable the smilies, or BBC code. Some will use it, some boards will prohibit and some board will use the possibilities for special kinds of communication.
If a overall solution would be the solution SMF would not constantly grow and change.
I regard to the headline, yes that is maybe most important. I did not display that in the samples. I was a little to lazy to translate further to make that visible. Thanks for pointing that out.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: Johann B on February 22, 2013, 08:53:16 PM
"You can't just get an automatic translation, and expect it to be accurate." of course and I am sure, that if it hits the attention, the problem would be solved as soon as one gets interested in the topic.
Did you ever had an interest on reading what is posted on the Arabic forum here? It never meats your intention. As for important topic (taking SMF as sample) it is clear that the specific translators would work on it. (if it is machine, translated or approved; all are able to see). It is even imaginable that you could upgrade the automatic translation for sensible topics.
Why though would non-Arabic speakers be interested in an Arabic section? I'm confused by your reasoning here.
In addition, are you suggesting that you would have the machine translate it, and then have translators correct the mistakes? If so, this still could not be done in live time, and you would end up with a backlog. As a result, you'd likely end up with a whole lot of dodgy translations waiting to be fixed, and that is unlikely to create a positive impression.
QuoteThat depends on the intentions of the forum team and of course of the availability of people like to get involved. It would be of course nonsense if you enable 50 languages and there is actually just in two languages a good intention as we well as support. That is a thing that will change with people like to engage are coming and going.
That doesn't explain how you would make it work. How are you going to guarantee that you will have translators available to do this in real time? You'd have to have them watching the forum 24 hours per day, so can you imagine how many translators you would need just for one language? It's impractical in my view. You'd also have pay people to do this kind of work, assuming you require this level of dedication.
QuoteThat is right, but in that case it was my ("translators") fault, I thought that is an error this ¿. As it looks I just have learned some spanish specials. DO you think that you would correct it immediately if you see such errors in your language? See, and exactly this "Uhh! Wrong... " is the reason why such things will work and increase the involvement. A board where everybody agrees will be silent. This psychological thing is how such contents like wiki are able to grow. People love to be wiser, better and smarter which is at least not that bad. We learn from each other.
It's not a question of learning the language, it's not Spanish grammar 101. What it is a question of is showing just how much time it's going to take correcting small errors, let alone major grammatical errors, such as completely mistranslated words and phrases.
QuoteI had shown the case with memeber D and his correction on the German translation. Thats the way it is, image that 70% of people depend on googe-translate, google themselves and will never have even the possibility to have somebody aside to say "Uhh! Wrong... "
If you want a forum for language questions, and discussion, then that's okay. Trying to have the posts translated is a problem. You would, in my opinion, be better off just having separate language boards, as has been explained previously.
And I'll tell you right now... If I saw a thread with the title that you have made this one, I would skip it...
Quote from: Kindred on February 23, 2013, 04:38:39 PM
And I'll tell you right now... If I saw a thread with the title that you have made this one, I would skip it...
Dear Kindred
...or post that it makes me annoying (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fwell_sangham.gif&hash=bbcd4e5c0d8f4a3f04e4cc5ebb561fbae99bacb8) That is why very less people would get into other language forums. FEAR and DISLIKE "not mine - others" to break that very raw appearance out of common human mind, is the reason behind (tendency to "real" multilingual).
If I had seen right, about the half posts here are "foreign" post on SMF (50%!). Do you think that you even got an small impression of what's going on there and on how many places you would have been able to help and simply miss this possibility out of boarders? Do you think that there could be eventually small treasures which would solve your own problems as well?
Of course it is possible to say, I have all I need and I want. For sure, but that is not lasting.
See, its mostly an English place here for example and as people are general usual in such a way that they share only within the own group its always just a matter how to integrate others to really participate.
To the more languages at the same time visible, that is something we had talked about already. Actually I did that simply to sow you how annoying and blocking other languages could be and how welcoming it is if you find something you can identify form the beginning, even it is not pure yet (if the translation would be not perfect, it would raise the desire to make it yours and modify it a little so that it is takeable - that is how translating by the crowd or wiki works. Simply this fundamental mental root effect. When ever you see a possibility to participate, to change it, to make it yours, you would go in and work on it. When you have the impression that you are not able to change it and it will never be yours or a part of you, you would generally dislike it - even the doubt is still subtle present. You would not like to make the mistake of misjudge and lose a possible gain.
After all that is all a little to show why and what are the benefits. We are far away from getting into the technical things from my impression but struggle with others. As soon there is a understanding of its benefit, I guess it will not take long to work it out.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Quote from: Irisado on February 23, 2013, 04:37:27 PM
...
Dear Irisado,
did you see that most argumentation is more about giving reasons why it does not work and makes no sence. When there seems to be a technical possibility, than the ideas is not good. When the idea seems to be good, than technical it's impossible. If we do not handle one by one and lop it off, its just a spinning around. Onetime this, one time that.
"Why though would non-Arabic speakers be interested in an Arabic section?" Maybe interesting to think about this question or assuming once again. Of the course of such a assuming and the results of such an assuming.
"Why should a non-Arabic speakers not be interested in an discussions lead by non-Arabic if it is about other than national topic? What is possible to make him accessing as good as possible?"
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
I don't fear or dislike other languages. I speak (mostly) three myself... However, I have no interest in using a language other than English when I am browsing most sites. Occasionally, I will visit the sections of the forum in other languages - but quite honestly I have to put my mind in the correct frame to switch languages for any extended period and I have little interest in the other languages that I don't know.
And I have already told you - people do not LEARN a language by seeing translations like that.
You will lose 90% of your audience with a mixed title like that.
you will lose 9% more of your audience once they open then topic and see multiple languages mixed in
So... only 1% of any forum (if that) will ever be interested in a topic translated into multiple languages.
Quote from: Johann B on February 24, 2013, 01:00:00 AM
did you see that most argumentation is more about giving reasons why it does not work and makes no sence. When there seems to be a technical possibility, than the ideas is not good. When the idea seems to be good, than technical it's impossible. If we do not handle one by one and lop it off, its just a spinning around. Onetime this, one time that.
I agree that it's going around in circles, but that's because you're not really able to answer a number of the points that are being made to you, particularly regarding language learning.
I'm a part-time languages tutor, and, as Kindred said, people do not learn languages in the way in which you're suggesting. There are a variety of techniques, but the side by side translation technique (which used to be done with books incidentally) has been found not to be successful in the past, so I'm afraid there's a lot of evidence to suggest what you're proposing isn't going to work in the way in which you're expecting.
Quote"Why though would non-Arabic speakers be interested in an Arabic section?" Maybe interesting to think about this question or assuming once again. Of the course of such a assuming and the results of such an assuming.
"Why should a non-Arabic speakers not be interested in an discussions lead by non-Arabic if it is about other than national topic? What is possible to make him accessing as good as possible?"
You've completely lost me here. Please could you explain more clearly?
Quote from: Kindred on February 24, 2013, 08:57:40 AM
I don't fear or dislike other languages. I speak (mostly) three myself... However, I have no interest in using a language other than English when I am browsing most sites. Occasionally, I will visit the sections of the forum in other languages - but quite honestly I have to put my mind in the correct frame to switch languages for any extended period and I have little interest in the other languages that I don't know.
And I have already told you - people do not LEARN a language by seeing translations like that.
You will lose 90% of your audience with a mixed title like that.
you will lose 9% more of your audience once they open then topic and see multiple languages mixed in
So... only 1% of any forum (if that) will ever be interested in a topic translated into multiple languages.
Dear Kindred,
QuoteAnd I have already told you - people do not LEARN a language by seeing translations like that.
Yes, that is why it should not be simply a machine translation and that is why it should be open for many as well.
QuoteYou will lose 90% of your audience with a mixed title like that.
Not 90% but many, yes. That is why I offered the idea of having language specific post produced as side or choice - data. And it's not only a lose, don't forget you came back out of being annoyed.
The more impression of "we, I mine" the more will join. The more impression of: this could be made to "our, mine" the more will work on it.
Quoteyou will lose 9% more of your audience once they open then topic and see multiple languages mixed
Can be, that is why it should closeable.
QuoteSo... only 1% of any forum (if that) will ever be interested in a topic translated into multiple languages.
I am not sure about all you ideas, but we could put it into a test. And as you know, there are more then 50% in this forum, who enter because there are translated topic. They just got their borders.
See, for everybody fits the setting of his form like he adjust them at least and every forum runner will set them in a way that they are best for his intentions.
A huge and for many accessible and useable software has many possibilities and a forum which has many participator has also many accessibility for many needs.
If I would just revere to what is my possibilities, for example "I speak two languages but I get enough food in my language" that is not a proper view as there are actually less who speak two languages and food on a place is something changeable. You can be sure that in some five years you will get the first desire to feed in chines areas as you will face the prosperity in an amount that it goes above the filtered happening.
As told often, when we are in a high position, we easy think that it is easy or secure ours because of that. But this wall is soon a prison even it seems to protect now.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Dear Irisado
QuoteYou've completely lost me here. Please could you explain more clearly?
I guess there is something generally confused. I lost you here and should therefore explain more clear? It is your assuming and your observing. How should I see that I have lost you in this point?
Maybe its better if you try to explain what "Why though would non-Arabic speakers be interested in an Arabic section?" should mean, when somebody could loses you here.
That is of cause a sentence where many could lose you and that is why I repeated it with a sentence where people might join and not get lost. In such a way should this sentence appear if it is in accordance which the whole intention of the topic, not otherwise.
To your reference of explaining. There is no intention to make people learn on the first hand. I know well that people actually don't like that usually. It was just mentioned that such a tool could be used in special forums and forums where translation is very needed with good possibilities.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Generally I have the impression that there is no desire to develop such in regard of the idea and I have the impression that there is no simply technical support will, so I guess we would generally just waste our times with each other on this topic and maybe sometimes later this will change. Whether somebody with more skills in explaining would do it or the urged need is faced by more. Over all I did not watch all user tendencies like such (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=433818.0) and regard this more as not worthy to support. But I understand the ways which sells and the ways which not sells.
Should I had annoyed somebody please apologies. Generally I am much obliged to all the possibilities which are given with SMF already and all of this should not be regarded as discontentedness, actually the opposite, it was just a try to give something back.
Deep thanks for all who had participated here with hints, critic, rebukes or just interest. Should there be one time an interest in real multilingual issues and should I have any possibility to support it ( I doubt that I have much beside of advocate it as very useful and urged) I am always on side.
Truly, friends, these two persons are rare in the world. Which two? The one who is contented and the one who satisfies the needs of others.
Truly, friends, these two persons are difficult to be satisfied. Which two? He that collects whatever he gains and he that spends whatever he gains.
Truly, friends, these two persons are easy to satisfy. Which two? He that does not collect whatever he gains and he that does not spend whatever he gains.(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Johann,
Once again, you have missed the point.
SMF already offers the capability to support multiple languages.
We do so here.
and it is very effective. If someone has a problem and can not(or does not want to) describe it in English, they can go to the language specific support for their language.
Our amazing group of translators and native language support specialists help them.
Everyone is happy. Things get done quickly (or as quickly as possible, given the global nature of this site)
Translations take a LONG time to do accurately.
This is one reason that we start having strings for SMF translated even before the Alpha version of our software is released. Our internationalization and translation teams work diligently to make sure that the strings make sense, especially when combined.
To do as you suggest would require a team of tens, if not hundreds of experienced people working round the clock.
It would requires 10 or even 100 times the storage space in the database.
It would make the screen cluttered and unreadable in many cases.
For these reasons, plus many others, already documented, you concept, while interesting, is unworkable in the real world.
also...
Quote
A huge and for many accessible and useable software has many possibilities and a forum which has many participator has also many accessibility for many needs.
If I would just revere to what is my possibilities, for example "I speak two languages but I get enough food in my language" that is not a proper view as there are actually less who speak two languages and food on a place is something changeable. You can be sure that in some five years you will get the first desire to feed in chines areas as you will face the prosperity in an amount that it goes above the filtered happening.
As told often, when we are in a high position, we easy think that it is easy or secure ours because of that. But this wall is soon a prison even it seems to protect now.
This made absolutely no sense at all in English.
Maybe it made sense to you, i your native language, and I am not sure what you meant to say, but it is nonsense in English.
Which highlights the other problem inherent in your concept... I hope what you said made some sense in your language... but your translation failed.
It reminds me a lot of Gri and his 'translation'.
I understand what he's getting at, it's not the greatest analogy but it is a workable one for the point he is trying to make, the one he is utterly convinced we have failed to grasp (we didn't, we grasped it the first time, and the second, and the third, and the fourth)
His idea is admirable, but virtually unworkable in any real environment.
oh, dear gods.... you said his name.
He's still banned here, right?
Lol, I believe so. I hope so.
Thanks a lot for sharing your view's, Arantor, Kindred and I accept it and I know traumatic reactions on banned user well.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
Let me offer you a last gift. I modified a well known sutta so that it fits to the SMF intentions:
SMF user Sutta: To a SMF user
(On Being a SMF user)
I have heard that on one occasion the SMF spirit was staying in feature request forum, at SMF forum. Then a user went to the spirit and, on arrival, having bowed down, logged in to one side. As he was logged in there he posted to the SMF spirit: "Spirit, to what extent is one a SMF user?"
"User, when one has gone to the SMF for refuge, has gone to the SMF features for refuge, and has gone to the SMF community for refuge, then to that extent is one a SMF user."
"And to what extent, spirit, is one a virtuous SMF user?"
"User, when one abstains from harm or banner user, from taking what is not given, from misconduct, from lying, and from sensual excesses that lead to heedlessness, then to that extent is one a virtuous SMF user."
"And to what extent, spirit, is one a SMF user who users it for his own benefit but not that of others?"
"User, when a SMF user himself is consummate in conviction but does not encourage others in the consummation of conviction; when he himself is consummate in virtue but does not encourage others in the consummation of virtue; when he himself is consummate in generosity but does not encourage others in the consummation of generosity; when he himself desires to see the SMF developers but does not encourage others to see the SMF developers; when he himself wants to hear the true SMF features but does not encourage others to hear the true SMF features; when he himself habitually remembers the SMF features he has heard but does not encourage others to remember the SMF features they have heard; when he himself explores the meaning of the SMF features he has heard but does not encourage others to explore the meaning of the SMF features they have heard; when he himself, knowing both the SMF features & its meaning, uses the SMF features in line with the SMF features, but does not encourage others to use the SMF features in line with the SMF features: then to that extent he is a SMF user who uses for his own benefit but not for the benefit of others."
"And to what extent, spirit, is one a SMF user who uses both for his own benefit & the benefit of others?"
"User, when a SMF user himself is consummate in conviction and encourages others in the consummation of conviction; when he himself is consummate in virtue and encourages others in the consummation of virtue; when he himself is consummate in generosity and encourages others in the consummation of generosity; when he himself desires to see the SMF developers and encourages others to see the SMF developers; when he himself wants to hear the true SMF features and encourages others to hear the true SMF features; when he himself habitually remembers the SMF features he has heard and encourages others to remember the SMF features they have heard; when he himself explores the meaning of the SMF features he has heard and encourages others to explore the meaning of the SMF features they have heard; when he himself, knowing both the SMF features & its meaning, uses the SMF features in line with the SMF features and encourages others to use the SMF features in line with the SMF features: then to that extent he is a SMF user who uses both for his own benefit and for the benefit of others."
Taken from: To Jivaka (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.026.than.html)
Just a "humorous" approach, maybe it transports also some good insight for one or the other. Its one community and it's to lift up each other as well. Where ever the single individual may be. "After all" is a approach the is proper to increase and to pointing or remembering on the possibilities to a higher stage.
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QuoteI know traumatic reactions on banned user well.
And you have no idea who we're talking about or why it's relevant. There isn't any trauma involved, emotional or otherwise. It was mostly meant (and received) as a sort of joke referring to someone who hasn't been around here for years because he's been banned from here for causing trouble.
That's another interesting analogy. Speaking as a significant contributor (and, apparently would-be murderer), it's flawed in how it applies in reality, but the point has been made, and understood, again.
Arantor, there are two ways we handle with traumatic experiences (experiences we refer at for our reactions). One is "disliking" or "avid it" and another is a "belittle it" approach so that we can handle it. Nevertheless, the experience comes as reference to mind and is therefor called traumatic. May it be subtle or raw, this of course is different to the individual. It does not accrue any more if it is penetrated and to find out whether it is penetrated or just put aside, it needs the investigation of feelings arising and to explore them what they cause.
Own assuming is what flavors, nothing else. I guess we provide to much refection of each other and it could be easy that we attack our mirror (https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsmile_sangham.gif&hash=5618df321057e4ea54cb176b48417a0f8bff0e47)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNHbvv8B16XTQ9kiLG4Ymgn3WPDsI03exAtfYr43ts394Pz4oF)
and that ends up like that:
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(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsmile_sangham.gif&hash=5618df321057e4ea54cb176b48417a0f8bff0e47)
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcQz3nrWWXKKdzB8exyMQLiTr4sPj8FnjBhF_m4J2SyzVD4DiWQl&hash=2938eae63ea2d3376dbad66cf970dd6d24069b30)
Thanks a lot for your patient and interest.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
QuoteArantor, there are two ways we handle with traumatic experiences (experiences we refer at for our reactions). One is "disliking" or "avid it" and another is a "belittle it" approach so that we can handle it.
That's not necessarily been my experience. Especially my time spent as a counsellor would disagree with this. But again you demonstrate something that has irked the other respondents in this thread: a continued desire to ignore the points being made because they contradict your lovely bubble of a world view.
QuoteThanks a lot for your patient and interest.
I've been far more patient with you than I would most people who cannot read and understand basic English and yet preach on the virtues of translation. Start by understanding what I'm saying then we might take you seriously.
QuoteI've been far more patient with you than I would most people who cannot read and understand basic English and yet preach on the virtues of translation. Start by understanding what I'm saying then we might take you seriously.
I know that well and that is the reason why I express my gratitude. Its not normal and such is outstanding of course. It was not meant sarcastic at all (if that was thought). It came form heart.
Thanks you for giving me the opportunity to correct a possible misinterpretation.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsadhu_sangham.gif&hash=3374b1dbded66220282e5a65f363d3dc5f1eca4a)
With the last post I had to remember a really good work of Dr. Hecker and thought it would be maybe great if I could supply it here, as we should never think that our good intentions are not for the welfare of our self and others, even it seems that they are not appreciated by others.
Of course this is not a perfect translation, but I guess its open enough to support things which are inside of all participator already and give just a little support in confidence of ones insight. We are all not perfect yet and even if, it could just increase the confidence so that we might not lose it.
(https://www.simplemachines.org/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsangham.net%2FSmileys%2Fsanghagift_sangham.gif&hash=9f0ebd02ffe2199b13e9e9a9141c41d62804364c)
Paths to benevolence
There are two paths leading to benevolence. Which two?
I. The good path, which is helpful and welcoming, and
II. The best path, which is liberating and leads to salvation
Now what is the good path that is helpful and welcoming?
I. The Good
The good path is of four manners:
1. trough generosity
2. trough friendly words
3. trough spry encouragement
4. trough impartiality
1. Now what is the manner of generosity?
There is the case where a person gives gifts and presents, he/she is freehanded and helpful, hospitable and generous. Where ever a needed or dishonored approaches him/her, he/she helps. Where ever he/she is able to make somebody happy with a gift, he/she does that. Reducing misery and giving joy he/she gives. Giving makes him/here happy, giving makes him/here glad. Giving makes him/her joyful and he/she dwells apart form greed, envy and avarice. For others he/she is pleasant, the noble ones seek association with him/here, and he/she wins good reputation, his/here approaching is solid and his/here heart grows lighter and lighter in regard of fear and sorrow about the vital necessities. And also for the beyond he/she is performing him/here great merits and great potency. Not does he/she give lightheaded so that it might be a burden for others and he/she also gives not blindly, without the consideration of the receiver, but with care, considering the possibilities of others and considering the situation of others. And the more his/her heart is fulfilled with the intention to give, the more selfless he/she grows. That is how somebody transcendent to his/her own welfare and to the welfare of others.
But soon he/she realizes that this is not yet the perfect kind which leads to benevolence. And why? Because he/she realizes that even the best gifts often are not able to cheer others up. With full hands he stands with empty hands, helpless in helping. And further: He/she makes the experience that he/she destroys the benevolence and joy of others with hard words which he/she caused with his/her gift. In that way generosity encourage to understand the misery of others deeper and to investigate ones own faults deeper.
2. . Now what is the manner of friendly words?
There is the case where a person speaks friendly words, mild, gentle, innermost which come from heart and go to heart. What ever he/she speaks, he/she speaks in a friendly manner, with a friendly sense. To solve and reduces tensions and misunderstandings he/she speaks: Friendly words make him/here joyful, friendly words makes him/here glad and he/she dwells apart of crudeness, snappishness and hurtful fierceness. He/she knows that friendly words are much stronger then any gift to melt the misery and sorrow of others away. He knows that gifts without goodwill are sometimes helpful as well but words without goodwill are nothing else then empty husk. And why? Because friendly words go behind the sphere of words and reach deeper. To be able to say friendly words, one needs to have empathy for the emotional state of others and needs to consider that. And to be able to do that, one needs to avoid all anger, all annoyance and all haughtiness. And the more his/her heart is fulfilled with the intention of friendliness, the more selfless he/she grows. That is how somebody transcendent to his/her own welfare and to the welfare of others.
But soon he/she realizes that this is not yet the perfect kind which leads to benevolence. And why? Because he/she realizes that even the friendliest words often are not able to cheer others up and solve only for a short time. He/she makes the experience that he/she often disturbs the benevolence and joy of others with unconsidered advices, which he affected with his words. In that way friendly words encourage to understand the misery of others deeper and to investigate ones own faults deeper.
3. Now what is the manner of spry encouragement
There is the case where a person gives good advices, smart, well considered, supportive and able to lead to welfare. What ever he/she speaks, he/she speaks well-considered. To lead others away form non-good and direct them into the good, he/she speaks. He/she shows how to overwhelm this or that misery and how to avoid this or that sorrow.
He helps others to get independent for the gifts and friendly words of others. And to be able to do so, he/she needs to see clear what is good and what is not good. The more he/she realizes what leads himself/herself to misery and sorrow, the more he/she avoids it and the more he/she is able to tell it others. That is how somebody transcendent to his/her own welfare and to the welfare of others.
But soon he/she realizes that this is not yet the perfect kind which leads to benevolence. And why? Because he/she realizes that even the best advices often are not taken to heart by others. He/she makes the experience that he/she often disturbs the benevolence and joy of others with his/her condescending kind. In that way spry encouragement encourages to understand the misery of others deeper and to investigate ones own faults deeper.
4. Now what is the manner of impartiality?
There is the case where a person has left the thought "Here I am, there are the others" behind, he/she is free of pride and conceit, he/she does not methought himself/herself higher than others and sees himself/herself equal to them. In deed, speech and thinking he/she serves others in a friendly kind, open and hidden as well. He/she is disposed for the concerns of others, he/she is available for them, he/she has always time for them. He/she has given up his own will and has grown devoted and humble.
A higher kind of a helpful and welcoming manner does not exist. It is the perfect kind which leads in a good manner to benevolence.
II. The best
Now what is the best path that is liberating and leads to salvation?
The best path is of four manners:
2. trough generosity
3. trough friendly words
4. trough spry encouragement
5. trough impartiality
1. Now what is the manner of generosity?
There is the case where a person shows the teaching of the reality, broad visible, like he has heard and understood and is not greedy with his insights and he/she does not disprize others. But what is the teaching of the reality? It is the discernment: "All appearances are ephemeral, what ever is ephemeral is stressful and what ever is ephemeral and stressful will always lead to harm, it is not worthy to mess about and that it is not mine, that is not me, that is not my self." In that way that somebody shows others this discernment, he/she wins further clearance, goes deep into it. That is how somebody transcendent to his/her own welfare and to the welfare of others.
But soon he/she realizes that this is not yet the perfect kind which leads to benevolence. And why? Because it is not enough to just supply this discernment to others.
2. . Now what is the manner of friendly words?
There is the case where a person shows those who seeking for welfare and are interested in it the teachings of the reality again and again, unremitting, with a friendly heart, without grumbling, without anger. Not does he/she grow tired to speak from heart to the heart of those who understand and he/she is never aggrieved if it seems that he/she speaks unavailing. As he/she is indefatigable in this kind, his/her patient grows as well as his/her imperturbability. That is how somebody transcendent to his/her own welfare and to the welfare of others.
But soon he/she realizes that this is not yet the perfect kind which leads to benevolence. And why? Because it is not enough to just to repeat this discernment just in general.
3. Now what is the manner of spry encouragement?
There is the case where a person puts effort to advices a person without confidence to win confidence, to find foundation in confidence so that confidence can grow firmer and firmer. There is the case where a person puts effort to advices a person without virtue to win virtue, to find foundation in virtue, so that virtue can grow firmer and firmer. There is the case where a person puts effort to advices a selfish person to win selflessness, to find foundation in selflessness, so that selflessness can grow firmer and firmer. There is the case where a person puts effort to advices a person without discernment to win discernment, to find foundation in discernment, so that discernment can grow firmer and firmer. And why? Who ever gains firm confidence in his discernment tends to a virtuous life. Who ever is firm in virtue tends to selflessness. Who ever is firm in selflessness tends to discernment. And one, who supports others to firm those four wholesome things, gives him/her self always reason to firm him/her self in it. That is how somebody transcendent to his/her own welfare and to the welfare of others.
But soon he/she realizes that this is not yet the perfect kind which leads to benevolence. And why? Because he/she realizes that he/she himself/herself is not perfect yet.
4. Now what is the manner of impartiality?
There is the case where a person has left the thought "Here I am, there are the others" behind, he/she is free of pride and conceit, he/she does not methought himself/herself higher than others and sees himself/herself equal to them. And he seeks such association, such friends who are equal in discernment or outmatch in it. In deed, speech and thinking he/she serves others in a friendly kind, open and hidden as well. He/she is disposed for the concerns of others, he/she is available for them, he/she has always time for them. He/she has given up his own will and has grown devoted and humble. But the highest kind exists in that regard, when someone has found secure to reach total liberation and associates with those who have gained the same security. If all of them give up there own will, benevolence itself serves the interacting of support in deeds, speech and advices.
A higher kind of a helpful and welcoming manner does not exist. It is the perfect kind which leads in a good manner to benevolence.
These are the two manners which lead to benevolence: The good manner, which is helpful and welcoming and the best manner, which is liberating and leads to salvation. Of this two manners the last includes the first within, requires it, can not exist without the first.
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Getting back to the point, and away from philosophy:
Quote from: Johann B on February 24, 2013, 08:43:08 PM
I guess there is something generally confused. I lost you here and should therefore explain more clear? It is your assuming and your observing. How should I see that I have lost you in this point?
Because the reply which you posted didn't make sense.
QuoteMaybe its better if you try to explain what "Why though would non-Arabic speakers be interested in an Arabic section?" should mean, when somebody could loses you here.
That is of cause a sentence where many could lose you and that is why I repeated it with a sentence where people might join and not get lost. In such a way should this sentence appear if it is in accordance which the whole intention of the topic, not otherwise.
This reads like some kind of attempt at trying to interpret sentence construction from the standpoint of philosophy, which is of no help when trying to convince others of the value of a dual language screen set up, either technically, or in terms of language acquisition. Your replies would be easier to follow if they directly addressed the questions which were being posed to you :).
QuoteTo your reference of explaining. There is no intention to make people learn on the first hand. I know well that people actually don't like that usually. It was just mentioned that such a tool could be used in special forums and forums where translation is very needed with good possibilities.
If, as you say, you know all of this, why persist with going down this route? If you know that it's only going to appeal to a very small audience, why argue so strongly for it, particularly in view of the technical difficulties, and the problems with actually getting the translation work done to a passable standard?
Quote...Why argue so strongly for it, particularly in view of the technical difficulties, and the problems with actually getting the translation work done to a passable standard?
Dear Irisado,
Because the easy way and the way the mass prefers is the way down and there is no other good way as to force and motivate people to learn. Otherwise they are lost in dependency and its just a matter of time till they burden themselves so much down to a point where they have no other further idea as to be angry on those who finally gave all they could but have no more to feed them further in their mo(o)ds.
I am not sure if I observed this right, but here for example certain languages tread are working pretty well and progress and guess how many English natives would be able to have a share of all of this and vice verse.
The general character of forums that those are common working places for simply consuming forums will be no match for other socializing and consuming platforms.
Of course there are 1001 solutions today to come quick and "easy" to what is wanted, but I guess there are less how can see the dependency they are in.
So getting away from the point would be simply to try to find a solution and work such out. Of cause, if the general tendency is "The costumer (consumer) is king" and the second part of this proverb "but the waiter is the emperor" is already replaced with "We are all equal", then there is no further argument.
But actually against the stream of mood and generally tendencies is where real fruits of good work are waiting.
I am not sure if people can imagine if people open up their collection box at a point where the "free consumer" is in a dependency where he/she would not be able to escape. Than don't claim them and you can say I have googled what I deserve (owe) now.
It's really not good to have big industries between people and the possibility for gifts and shares.
Maybe this OP has a change to be further developed and the underlying intention on deeper and even deepest level might be understood.
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(a search operation brought me "accidentally" back to this old topic)