Opinions needed: Moving from vBulletin to SMF

[Benjamin]

My friend is currently using vBulletin for his board, and the problem comes from the fact that due to the high publicity of his website [d12world.com, "D12" is Eminem's group], the vBulletin software wreaks havoc on the server.  My tech admin has used every trick in the book to alleviate the situation by customizing the kernel, MySQL and apache, the server still gets overloaded.

Here are the stats from the board:

D12 World Message Board Statistics
   
Threads: 72,969, Posts: 1,059,518, Members: 23,400

The server specs are:

Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz (HT, but not enabled)
1 GB of DDR 333 RAM
80 GB HD
OS: FreeBSD 4.10-BETA
Apache 1.3.29*
PHP 4.3.6*
MySQL 4.1.1*

Here are what the load is like during peak hours:

last pid: 44019;  load averages:  4.22, 11.59, 12.02    up 5+20:40:11  12:52:53
242 processes: 2 running, 237 sleeping, 3 zombie
CPU states: 45.5% user, 13.1% nice, 29.1% system,  1.5% interrupt, 10.9% idle
Mem: 726M Active, 55M Inact, 169M Wired, 33M Cache, 110M Buf, 2376K Free
Swap: 1999M Total, 242M Used, 1756M Free, 12% Inuse, 2160K In

I have a few questions:

1) Which should I use? YabbSE or SMF?  I rather use something that's still being supported, so that would be SMF...

2) One basic rule is never use beta software on a public server, but seemingly there's no difference as vBulletin has proven to be very unreliable on high-usage sites (unless you're a guru and know how to customize everything).  Is it a bad idea to use SMF 1.0 Beta 5 on such a high-usage server?

3) If I do use SMF, is there any recommended changes to the server (like apache, php, or MySQL)  that should be done in such a case?


Thanks for your time,

--Benjamin


* Edited in for clarification

[[Unknown]]

Sounds like a decent server setup indeed... just as a question, do you know if you've tried Apache 2 prefork?  My understanding is that Apache 2 is supposed to preform better, but I've never actually done any benchmarks.

SMF would perform, let's say... several factors of 10 better.

Well, I'm not sure.  There are going to be bugs in beta software, but sometimes... they are just typos.  For example, one that I just fixed was that in the profile it says "show other user's avatars" where it should say "show other users' avatars".  Maybe not a huge thing, but part of why it is beta still.

Another reason it's beta is because it's not done functionality-wise.  For example, there's no way to enable quick reply for *everyone* in Beta 5 Public.  This functionality is planned for later.

One thing I would think is probably killing your server is the email notifications.  I have seen vBulletin forums go bottom up due to having to send too many notifications on topics.  However, this is something I haven't reliably resolved for SMF - I plan to set it up so you can have emails sent in a time-delayed manner, but I'm still working out some logistical problems with that.

I would recommend, if possible, you try a conversion just to "test the water".  While I have been meaning to get my hands on a testing server and a database that size... quite frankly, I just haven't yet.  I can't tell you how well SMF will perform with that many posts, nor can I even promise the vBulletin converter will convert *everything* perfectly.

But again, even if you don't know if you want to move yet - which may or may not be a good idea at this time - testing a conversion would at least be a good way to see what problems could arise, so we have time to fix them before SMF goes gold.

Incidently, how do you have query caching set in MySQL?  And, do you know if you're using a persistant connection or not?

Thanks,
-[Unknown]

[Benjamin]

First, thanks for the detailed and honest reply, I appreciated that.

I didn't know there was a convertor for those who run vBulletin, can you point me on where it is and how to do it?  I can have my tech admin try it out.

Secondly, I don't know a heck of a lot about *nix, but I do know that 'persistent connections' is disabled, and I'll ask about the query checking.

*If* the webmasters agree to try out SMF (assuming the convertor works), I'll let you know so maybe you can monitor the board under high load situation.  I'm also willing to grant you access to the server & board if that's what it takes.  My paramount concern is to stabilize the server as soon as humanly possible.

I expect the board only to get busier because D12's CD, "D12world" (same as the site name) was just released today.

Let me know what you think ...

--Benjamin

[Oldiesmann]

The convertor is located in the Convertors and Tools section of the downloads page.

[[Unknown]]

I do want to clarify something, when I said SMF would perform many factors better I was referencing YaBB SE vs. SMF.  I have not recently benched SMF against vBulletin and did not mean to make any assertions either way because I don't have any information there.

Persistant connections can be a double edged sword, but if you're the only one on your server (I would assume so!) and your server is both the web and MySQL server - it might cut the overhead down noticably.

Another note - it might be possible, with some modification (to vBulletin, SMF, YaBB SE, whatever you use...) to make use of MySQL's replication.  What this basically means is you have several MySQL servers and they all have the same data on them.  You load balance the queries between the "slave" servers and send all "write" queries to the "master" server.  This can significantly speed things up, as long as all the servers are in a close-nit network.

However, it is expensive.  I'm just trying to propose solutions to speed/load problems for you.

-[Unknown]

[Benjamin]

Actually, that's not a bad idea, and theoretically it could be done (the webmasters own a few servers).  But I don't think I know anyone with the knowledge needed to do that.

But I admit, I have an ulterior motive.  I hate vBulletin, always have ..  I think it's focused too much on bloated features that hardly anyone uses and not enough on speed and efficiency.  This problem is magnified when the board becomes huge.

I'm going to try to persuade the webmasters to give the convertor idea a go, and see how it works.

I'm not going to ask you on how to improve things on the server that's running forum software that you're not supporting.  I rather run SMF and help the team out and at the same time, receive prompt attention unlike what I receive when I post on vBulletin's support forum.

The worst case scenario is .. the board collapses in on itself.  But vBulletin has done that already, so the risk is relatively minimal to me.

The webmasters are frustrated at what they have to do keep the server running smoothly because of vBulletin, so I'm looking at ways to solve it.  Every fiber in my being tells me that running SMF should improve things dramatically and at the same time, give you guys valuable information as SMF continues through the beta stages.

--Benjamin

[scottb]

Good luck Benjamin if you plan on doing it.

[Uzbekistan]

Any luck Benjamin? BTW, has anyone compared performance of vB3.0.3 vs SMF1.1 since then? I am thinking of moving as well - deciding between phpbb2 and smf1.1

[papabill]

For what it's worth, I moved from vBulletin 3.0.3 to SMF 1.05 without a hitch.  I had to make an adjustment or two concerning the way a couple of forums worked, but all is working perfectly.

I'm VERY impressed with SMF, and would like to install a couple of mods, but my eyesight has nearly stopped any coding.

Keep up the great work, SMF team!!