No Bridge for Joomla 1.5

[omidkosari]

I think they are going to be a dictator 

[sastrugi]

I'm saddened to read a lot of this thread, there is a lot of negativity which is based on false assumptions and is not redressed by the people who are moving their development focus elsewhere.

Orstio, whatever your reasoning it is your decision to make. I, for one, applaud the amount of [continuing] effort you (and your colleagues) have spent on prjoects such as this.

With that in mind tho', the people who have contributed to this thread and voiced their concerns about having no option whatsoever if they want to develop their web sites with Joomla and SMF. The fact is that your's is not the only "bridge" available at the present time; I use Joomlahacks' and it works for me (your's, btw, just wouldn't work for me, but I see that as just the way it is).

Wolverine has [also] commented on his development for Joomla 1.5 and he's said he's said "he's not working on it" BUT he's put this into context by saying that since Joomla 1.5 is still very much beta there is no reason to get in a panic about the bridge at this moment in time - 1.5-stable is still a little way off yet 

It is obvious that there are a lot of extremely grateful and loyal supporters for Orstio's bridge, and that has to be recognised and hugely applauded but, I'd suggest, that anyone suggesting that there will be no way of using SMF with Joomla 1.5 in a "bridged" mode is mistaken. If I had money I'd put a wager on it! 

[elfishtroll]

I think we also need to realize that it is not only a case of SMF abandoning Joomla, but Joomla abandoning Joomla as well. Why even CALL the new product Joomla?

well, it allows them to build on the Name Recognition the old product has, but architecturally, the new J1.5 is a substantially different product, I'd say probably as different as PostNuke is from say Joomla1.01x

With the clarification from Ortiso it seems (and correct me) that the fundamental problem seems to be a Philosophical one rather than a Technical one.
Basically, he objects (and on sound grounds) the idea of as a rule heavily modifying the source code of Joomla or SMF code to effect the integration. While there are a lot of caveats to that approach, it is workable. Life (and coding) is nothing but tradeoffs all the same.

What we may end up doing is doing a bridge for the bridge lol.

I'm encouraged by the fact that initial support for community builder seemed to not be forthcoming either, but time heals code as well as all wounds .


Joomla 1.5 is so different from 1.01x that if you have a lot of extensions/components and mods, SMF compatibility will only be one of your problems. Since Mambo is structurally identical to Joomla 1.01x then it defacto becomes the ongoing line for Joomla going forward in my book.

Whether the underlying software is called Mambo or Joomla or DickCheney'sPimpledAss.php means nothing to me. I just want a working code to support my site. 

[IVIIVI4ck3y27]

It's not so much an abandoning but a redefining of Joomla, akin to NT 4->Windows 2000, or 2000 -> XP, or XP -> Vista; as there was a lot of code changes (although a ton of effort to insure compatibilities with legacy, even at penalty to the system itself in some ways) or maybe more comparatively...  Mac OS 7-9 -> OS X where there was some broken compatibilities', even when using Classic.  There's a lot of outstanding issues that Joomla's developers saw within the old codebase that warranted a complete ground-up rewrite in many ways.  I fully understand and respect that decision as there's a lot of things Joomla should be capable of that it's not, many of which are very helpful moving forward.  It's in no small part that I eagerly anticipated the move to 1.5->2.0, esp. 2.0 with it's much greater support for ACL.  They've done a lot to retain compatibility with a lot of old features and themes via 'legacy mode' but, the big deal-breaker for me right now is the SMF situation.  I love this board, and while I like some alternatives (i.e. PunBB which is very clean, light, and easier to change the look of or tweak IMHO), I just look at the featureset of SMF and find it more along the lines of what I want.

I'm an admin on an online racing gaming site and we need both a good CMS (something we don't have now, ours is junk IMHO) as well as a board (meh).  Our current situation with Nuke/PHPbb has been enough to cause me to research...  I love SMF, it runs rings around PHPbb in my opinion (not a terrible solution but not as robust or feature-rich as SMF), but Joomla has it's significant pluses and a handful of negatives.  Going forward...  I was eagerly anticipating 1.5 and more probably, 2.0, for the features both are apt to bring to go toe to toe with our Nuke install and ultimately surpass, while offering all of that which Nuke fails to.  The problem is...  without integration with SMF or an SMF-like board, Joomla even at 1.5-2.0 is a major shortcoming for us.

The problem is...  I like Orstio's approach to a bridge vs. the alternative approach which Orstio rightfully could call an 'integration' as it's actually sort of gluing itself into the inner workings of each app.  There is a very big difference, especially since said integration isn't a Joomla-rolled and self-sustaining piece.  If it were...  going forward...  Orstio's bridge would bear little fruit and there'd be no qualms really as we'd all likely use Joomla's home-grown solution.  Yet in the reality, in comparing the bridges and so-called bridges...  Orstio's is the real deal, and the alternative is an integration.  That is...  it modifies files on both sides in ways that an upgrade to the site or board could break.  With security concerns creeping up in PHP-installs, it's imperative that you be able to update your site and board components without breakages and without chasing your tail to debug and fix things after the upgrade.  A bridge, bridges the 2 codebases without potential for a breakage...  as long as the developers on both sides stick to their plans or keep either side primed ahead of time.  The bulk of the code could radically change, as long as the hooks stay the same.  That option seemingly is deprecated in Joomla 1.5 going forward, and without it...  who knows what we'll have other than to hack it back in every single time there's a point release from 1.5?

I'm going to keep it in mind to see what comes of the integrations for SMF, but I do have to admit I'm a bit concerned about going that pathway now, as I have gut feelings 2.0 will do even more to cause problems with this.  I'd hate to follow a path and dead-end and have to reshift again.  I do love Joomla as a CMS though (very polished and slick for what capabilities it does possess), although after looking through things...  I've noticed Orstio has alpha support for e107.  I might have to follow this one more closely as I do have to admit to liking e107 even if it doesn't have quite the following or support base in terms of add-ons as Joomla or Mambo.  With that said, out of the box...  e107 is a bit easier to setup IMHO, and it performs favorably with comparison to the current Joomla/Mambo platform, if not even providing exactly what we need out of the box in some manners.  Either that or I'll have to keep an eye on the Ruby-based CMS'es like Eribium to see where it goes (very, very, very, very, very green).  Eribium + Aireo (for S3) alone could leapfrog anything we've got in a heartbeat, with the only looming question is making Eribium talk with SMF or a comparable Ruby-board (none exist that I know of); or whether or not running Ruby and PHP on a server in combination could cause it's own concerns.

Near-term...  I'm going to have to pull the trigger sometime and come up with something.  Watching the sheer # of crashes and bugs that are part of our site is downright aggravating, not to mention the bandwidth that Nuke sucks up for the lack of features it provides that we want.  There's a lot Nuke has over everybody, but there's a lot of Nuke that brings it so far down that even in the conundrum of finding an alternative...  it's almost a blessing to give up some features and capabilities for the gains of countless others, along with greater stability, performance, and security.

[Omega X]

A petition was set up...Followed by mocks from the Joomla Hacks team and a mod claiming that J!1.5 is flexible.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,127643.msg629260.html#msg629260

[joomla]

Ironic that Joomla forums are SMF - surely they must be aware of this issue for many users...

We run SMF? Dang.. I knew I missed something


Seriously though, SMF is the best forum there is, we love it! Remember the days when we ran vBulletin, (when we were called Mambo) boy, I'm glad that is over. There is no way we'd be able to sustain the traffic and posts that we can now handle with SMF.
Thanks to all the SMF devs who bring us such a good system. Joomla 1.5 is going to be the SMF of the CMS world. Bring it on

* joomla goes back to tend one of the worlds top 30 SMF boards.

[joomla]

.. and a mod claiming that J!1.5 is flexible.

Thats me and it is.

[-Wolverine]

A petition was set up...Followed by mocks from the Joomla Hacks team and a mod claiming that J!1.5 is flexible.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,127643.msg629260.html#msg629260 [nofollow]

There is no team, just lil ole me.  And I felt mocked by the bold red hack comment.  Should have just said that instead.  I'm not sure where you get off saying you would expect that of me, considering we have never spoken and I respond to such comments next to never.  My integration is different, nuff said.

[Aravot]

Hi Wolverine,

Out of curiosity what happened to Cowboy, is he still around, are you the same guy?

[Puc conDoin]

About this, there's also a discussion going on at Joomla! Forums:

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,85231.msg621349.html#msg621349

[elfishtroll]

Ironic that Joomla forums are SMF - surely they must be aware of this issue for many users...

We run SMF? Dang.. I knew I missed something


Seriously though, SMF is the best forum there is, we love it! Remember the days when we ran vBulletin, (when we were called Mambo) boy, I'm glad that is over. There is no way we'd be able to sustain the traffic and posts that we can now handle with SMF.
Thanks to all the SMF devs who bring us such a good system. Joomla 1.5 is going to be the SMF of the CMS world. Bring it on

* joomla goes back to tend one of the worlds top 30 SMF boards.

?? With all due respect (which really means, none at all ) SMF and Vbulletin are not yet in the same class - that remark is just irrelevant pandering IMHO, gimme a break.

Vbulletin IS better, only (for me at least) not $160 better +30/year

On topic, what I have seen is that the break with Joomla and SMF (1.5 integration) is due to a paradigm shift, not so much a technical issue.

(we may save the debate on whether a paradigm shift IS a technical issue for another thread!)

I'm surprised reading the forum posts on joomla.org how stupid and rude some of them are, "Stupid users".."why cant they just simply sign on both times" and all kinds of crap.

The problem is that the Orsito bridge is designed from the ground up with the presumption that a certain behavior is going to be valid. The ability to OWN the output buffer and the code execution context is the real sticking point here.

It's like doing code then being told at the last minute you cant use the assumptions of REGISTER GLOBALS (pain in the azz) F_URL open (major pain) or INCLUDE/REQUIRE (aargh!)

But, if you are coding from scratch with those realities already known, then it is just an 'operating environment' you are getting into, so no big deal,really.

Reading the full threads over at the joomla site, I am disappointed with a LOT of the crappitude there

..Well they have to login everytime anyway! Your not saving them anything really.
On a shared machine what is to stop them from just going to a direct link of the forum and getting logged in and be able to post as the last user who logged into the site?
Bridges REDUCE security on shared machines because your actually bypassing a security check with them!
In these enviornments you should have to login twice to ensure you are who you are!

The quote speaks for itself ...reading through the Joomla posts from the Joomla people, I can see plainly that Ortiso is being too kind in describing his attempts at dealing with those guys.

Yeah, I didnt mention who the quote is from: I figured he would be embarrassed enough!

(Where is Al Gore when you need him? This GLOBAL WARMING is getting out of hand! )

[joomla]

Am I classed as a Joomla person? I hope so... 

ahh people.. breath in, breath out... this will go down in history as the great 'Joomla 1.5-smf storm in a tea cup'. If Orstio will not code a bridge, someone else will.

Re: SMF vs vBulletin, perhaps I need to clarify, for us, Joomla, we prefer and I personally recommend SMF over vBulletin. It's server/ friendly nature makes it essential to an active community like ours. vBulletin would be killing our servers now, period.

[elfishtroll]

I agree with that last comment. The market will demand that there is a functional bridge between joomla 1.5 and SMF and the market always gets what it wants.

What has surprised me (a little bit, not too much, being around for two years with Joomla/Mambo) is the amount of inflammatory rhetoric on the Joomla side much of it flat out wrong - and just stupid! The arguments based on (If they dont like it, fk 'em! and "users are dumb" - which personally I hate MORE THAN YOU CAN POSSIBLY BELIEVE -I dont believe there is anything like 'dumb users' only dumb code and coders-but THAT is a topic for another thread.)

What struck me (from both sides really, but more on the Joomla side) is how RELIGIOUS the debate has gotten, an almost jihadist adherence to a particular SIDE not to logic - the "other side" is "wrong" not based on anything said or done, but because they "are the other side".

I'm curious "joomla" why that name? do you speak for joomla* or have you just co opted that login (kinda like cyber squatting, w/o the cyber or the squatting )

*I, on the other hand, am somewhat 'elfish' i.e. diminutive in stature and more often than not, a bit of a troll. (so there!)

[-Wolverine]

Hi Wolverine,

Out of curiosity what happened to Cowboy, is he still around, are you the same guy?

Cowboy is around but more or less just runs the site.  He doesn't have time to contribute to the development and hasn't for awhile.

[tcp]

Being an SMF user and a developer of a Joomla component, my reaction to this thread is that people are overly anxious about a CMS that isn't even released.  Necessity is the mother of invention and perhaps there will be a solution that no one has thought of.  Thats all that I want to say except for a special thanks to Orstio for all of his work, regardless of whether or not he decides to pursue a bridge for 1.5 .

tcp

[exrace]

Ditto!

[joomla]

I'm curious "joomla" why that name? do you speak for joomla* or have you just co opted that login (kinda like cyber squatting, w/o the cyber or the squatting )

You are obviously not a Joomla! forum user , this is me: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,122382.0.html

[chadness]

What has surprised me (a little bit, not too much, being around for two years with Joomla/Mambo) is the amount of inflammatory rhetoric on the Joomla side much of it flat out wrong - and just stupid! The arguments based on (If they dont like it, fk 'em! and "users are dumb" - which personally I hate MORE THAN YOU CAN POSSIBLY BELIEVE -I dont believe there is anything like 'dumb users' only dumb code and coders-but THAT is a topic for another thread.)

That's mostly just one person, who isn't an official Joomla anything.  It's his own opinion that bridges aren't important.  It's many others' opinion that it is.  I'm not sure why he's wasting the effort.

I'm curious "joomla" why that name? do you speak for joomla* or have you just co opted that login (kinda like cyber squatting, w/o the cyber or the squatting )

Brad's a good guy   The Joomla web master.  He can't be that bad - he chose SMF for their forum, right?  Hehehehe.


On that note as well, I'd like to defend Wolverine as well.  He's never been anything but nice and helpful to the users of both bridges (though obviously mostly he's supported his own), just like Orstio.  The Joomlahacks bridge branched off from Orstio's a long time ago, and I've never really seen any hostility between the developers.  Orstio had good reason to want to minimize the core hacks, and Cowboy had a good reason for doing what he did the way he did, and from what I've seen, Wolverine has been top notch in developing that even further, and trying to make the hacks as painless as possible.  Neither way is an absolute right or wrong way to do it.  Just like bridging or not is not right or wrong.

[Kindred]

I would like to add my comments to chadness...   I have no actual problem with the joomlahacks integration, I just prefer my system to have no source code changes (for reasons that I have previously explained).
Cowboy and Wolverine have done a greta job with their integration...  and since any joomla-smf link is going to HAVE to make source changes, that is the likely direction it will come from.

[Omega X]

A petition was set up...Followed by mocks from the Joomla Hacks team and a mod claiming that J!1.5 is flexible.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,127643.msg629260.html#msg629260

There is no team, just lil ole me.  And I felt mocked by the bold red hack comment.  Should have just said that instead.  I'm not sure where you get off saying you would expect that of me, considering we have never spoken and I respond to such comments next to never.  My integration is different, nuff said.

Well, I didn't make the big red bold Hack comment.

Also I've seen J! Hacks comments about Orstio's SMF bridge before. I don't know what came from who but not many were pretty no matter if they were tongue in cheek stuff or not. Nuff Said.

And as for Bridge integration, I'm with Kindred. I would rather not have to deal with core changes. I went through that once with other CMS installations and I'm not about to do it again. So if that means switching to Mambo when the time comes, then so be it.