If SMF wants to be successful

[Dannii]

Some thoughts for everyone, from someone who's been at it a lot longer than most of you...

Comments on the visual aesthetics of the default theme are pretty much entirely useless, whether positive or negative. When the SMF team gets around to designing the new theme, they will basically have to follow the general market. This means it will be light blue with subtle gradients and maybe a few round corners. Whether you personally like that or not is irrelevant. 2.0 will hopefully make it very easy to design and install CSS-only themes, and perhaps they could even alter the installer to suggest a few popular themes when you install the forum.

What is useful are comments about usability and accessibility. What parts of SMF confuse you? What common processes take a long time? What default features do you rarely, if ever, use? What non-default user options do most of your forum's users select? What parts of the forum look cluttered? Which parts do you wish provided more information? And if you use a non-standard user agent for some reason, then we'd appreciate your responses even more.

If you want to help, the best thing to do is simply experiment with various aspects of a theme. There have been many experiments, such as blogs, portals, using new JS libraries and more. I still think that Eren is among the very best of SMF's current theme designers, and I think that some of his themes make an excellent starting point. If you want to experiment with some aspect of a theme but don't want to spend the time cleaning out all of the HTML please do ask him if you can alter one of his themes.

Personally I think that 3.0 should be devoted to the default theme. It's too big to do in one RC, and I can't believe the devs have said that 2.0 is basically feature frozen and yet plan to completely rewrite the default theme.

[SleePy]

 I know you guys want to see SMF change its theme to be more semantic and other things. But you have to realize this takes time. I am no theme designer, but I could probably scrap some junk together in a couple of hours that might work in Firefox 2, would crash IE6 (as a feature ), cause opera users to get loads of errors, and not even be html 4 valid. What would most of you think of that? Well I would think most of you would complain about the script, some of you might not use it and others might do both.
The whole point to that is that it would be a really poor theme. I know as a customizer who develops in php, some javascript, xhtml and other technologies that the visual output is the hardest part. I can spend an hour writing coding for my scripts and 2 and a half hours making the visual output xhtml valid, use all classes, follow standards and work on a big array of browsers. This is just for a small script I may be putting up on my site (live usually as my test site I don't test these things that much) for some reason.
SMF is a way bigger script than my scripts I deal with, it takes a while to change all the templates, make them follow standards, use semantics, and validate.

[Dannii]

It will indeed take a lot of time. That's why I think it's unwise to consider making the changes to what is said to be feature locked.

[SleePy]

It is a tentative feature lock really (in my opinion). The devs are trying to not add more features, but they might slip in. Maybe even to fix a few bugs a feature might appear.

[riker]

It will indeed take a lot of time. That's why I think it's unwise to consider making the changes to what is said to be feature locked.

From what I've seen so far I don't think people are asking for a massive change but just for a paint job to brighten it up.   It's dull and gloomy and could be brightened up  without a huge thing made about it in my opinion. 

I would however like to see a whole new thing when the next (SMF 3.0) comes about because this (smf2.0) wont be much of a change to anyone other than the admins from what we've read so far.

[青山 素子]

I would however like to see a whole new thing when the next (SMF 3.0) comes about because this (smf2.0) wont be much of a change to anyone other than the admins from what we've read so far.

You must not be reading all that much.

• WYSIWYG Editor
• OpenID Consumer
• New User E-Mail system (Replacing hide/show e-mail which is still an option)
• Reworked PM form
• PM labels

That's off the top of my head on new features that are visible by the end-user and that we've formally announced. I can think of a few others, but I'm not sure they've been announced.

[riker]

I would however like to see a whole new thing when the next (SMF 3.0) comes about because this (smf2.0) wont be much of a change to anyone other than the admins from what we've read so far.

You must not be reading all that much.

• WYSIWYG Editor
• OpenID Consumer
• New User E-Mail system (Replacing hide/show e-mail which is still an option)
• Reworked PM form
• PM labels

That's off the top of my head on new features that are visible by the end-user and that we've formally announced. I can think of a few others, but I'm not sure they've been announced.

Sorry I don't wish to come a cross the wrong way I'm just speaking as an end user here now who's not noticed

[青山 素子]

Sorry I don't wish to come a cross the wrong way I'm just speaking as an end user here now who's not noticed

It's okay. Some of them aren't on by default, so you wouldn't have.

The WYSIWYG editor isn't on by default. Choose the red A in the post buttons to switch to it, or turn it on in your profile "Look and Layout" area.

OpenID hasn't been turned on here yet, there are still a few bugs to work out regarding profiles and other things.

The e-mail system is active, but you wouldn't notice unless you tried using it. Likewise for the PM items.

[codenaught]

I will agree that the default theme of SMF could use some work done to it. When I first saw it, I thought it was rather nice, but I admit it becomes more dull compared to other themes available for SMF and default themes for other forum scripts. I am not the biggest fan of the phpBB 3 default theme, but that being said, I do think it has a nice clean look to it. The output of it seems rather neat too, so I imagine (while haven't personally tried to do so) it would be easy to modify it however you wanted to create your own theme.

I am not basing this off of inside information but rather what developers have said publicly; I think the 2.0 theme changes that will be put in toward the end will be a step in the right direction rather than a total revamped perfectly semantical theme. For us to go all out, that would likely call for just too much work in the short amount of time that we have. And what eldacar said is rather true, we are late in the development stages for this at this point.

As for features added to users for 2.0, I will admit it may not be quite as many as some may of hoped. But personally as a user, I am really quite happy with how SMF is at the moment. Things like a WYSIWYG post form I think will make new people to forums happy as well. When it comes down to it, I think members like nice special effects that save time, such as AJAX type additions. The developers have stated they would like to add some more AJAX where it is reasonable to do so. This will likely improve the average user experience.

[Chriss Cohn]

.......Things like a WYSIWYG post form I think will make new people to forums happy as well. ......

There should be a AJAX option to be able to dynamically resize the "input-window" like Vbulletin does. For what i need a WYSIWYG editor when i can't use all of its advantages? The text window is simply to small for it in my opinion...

Regards, Christian

[Dannii]

From what I've seen so far I don't think people are asking for a massive change but just for a paint job to brighten it up.   It's dull and gloomy and could be brightened up  without a huge thing made about it in my opinion.

No, a small minority of people want a paint job. Most people want the entire theme to be rewritten from the ground up.

I am not basing this off of inside information but rather what developers have said publicly; I think the 2.0 theme changes that will be put in toward the end will be a step in the right direction rather than a total revamped perfectly semantical theme. For us to go all out, that would likely call for just too much work in the short amount of time that we have. And what eldacar said is rather true, we are late in the development stages for this at this point.

If this is the case, then the changes are useless. We really do need a completely revamped theme. If you were to say, remove all the <table>s and replacing them with <div>s, while keeping all the inline styles, JS and use presentational class names, for theme designers it would be no better than what we have now.

[Sverre]

I am not basing this off of inside information but rather what developers have said publicly; I think the 2.0 theme changes that will be put in toward the end will be a step in the right direction rather than a total revamped perfectly semantical theme. For us to go all out, that would likely call for just too much work in the short amount of time that we have. And what eldacar said is rather true, we are late in the development stages for this at this point.

Considering the fact that a semantic default theme has been a pressing demand since Core was publicly released more than two years ago, and probably before that as well, I have to admit that a partial solution would be more than a little disappointing

I appreciate the amount of work involved in this task, but no one - least of all SMF - would benefit from a quick solution. The version change has presented you with the perfect opportunity to do this right once and for all, and if what you say is indeed the plan, I really hope the team and developers will reconsider. If it delays the release of 2.0, so be it!

As for features added to users for 2.0, I will admit it may not be quite as many as some may of hoped. But personally as a user, I am really quite happy with how SMF is at the moment.

I agree that there isn't a whole lot you can add to the user experience within the realms of forum software, but in my opinion, there could be a lot to gain by simply refining already existing features and/or their interface. Take a look at the tiny and anonymous "Insert Quote" link in "Topic Summary" for example... Does it come as a surprise that regular users don't seem to even know it's there? And for the select few who do know about it, the lack of a page index (to access posts which fall outside the admin set post limit of the Topic Summary) severely limits its value in active topics.

[SleePy]

First off, I will move this to General Discussion and Feedback, since this isn't a comment related to the feedback about our site but our software.

When 1.1 was released it was to late to do any major things such as a new default theme. The developers are planning big things, but proper work takes time. SMF 2.0 has been in the works since 1.1 RC2, and they are still making improvements to how things work overall in it. If you guys knew the type of work the developers put in to make a SMF what is is you would might sustain whiplash from the shock. It isn't easy for them to do what they do. Aswell Remember SMF 2.0 is not final yet, there is still time for the developers to change a lot of things.

[Dannii]

SleePy, I was on the team, I know how much work they do. But I also know how recently they started working on the new theme. It is too big a job for an RC! It deserves a full release. I think theme changes like this are really going to be a bigger job than the database changes, because it's really not systematic. If there was a bug in the new database system, the whole forum would be affected. Each template that is changed will require hours of testing. If you go ahead trying to push this new theme with 2.0, I'll honestly feel very sorry for the days Grudge will need to spend on it.

[metallica48423]

I think that 2.0 would be the perfect time for it.  It is a time when the changes are severe enough that it will cause a great majority of current themes and mods to need to be rewritten.  That gives an open opportunity for those things to be recreated or redone based on whatever new theme, which would lead to a better propagation of things down the road, rather than having the majority of themes and such be using an outdated code base.

I'd say it'd make sense more for 2.0 than 2.1.

But i think we're talking two different things here, some are preaching HTML, others are looking for aesthetics.  Both have their points.

[Gwydion Frost]

One thing I have noted... although the nature of the conversation has changed, is that the proliferation of phpbb vs. the proliferation of SMF is somehow a measure of "success".

This is akin to saying that Apple should try to be Microsoft, if they "want to be successful".

Personally, I will tell you why I chose SMF over phpbb and the others.

If a bug is discovered...?

Fixed. ASAP.

If a security issue is discovered...?

Fixed. ASAP.

In fact, its this dedication to creating a stable and inpenetratable forum program with the ease and flexibility to integrate with the rest of a website proper [SSI, anyone?] that is a selling point for me. That the developing team demands a stringent adherance to packaging modifications and themes not just for coding and safety issues of today, but for FUTURE advancements in the software!

And they do this solely on donations, in their spare time, at no cost to anyone who wants to use it.

Do you folks truly grasp just how rare that is...?

Don't get me wrong... because I can see that the default theme could be better presented with some modifications and minor adjustments. But seriously, it is extremely functional and works well... even as "boring" as it appears. It also is apparent that the design team wants to incorporate several changes into it, but they are moving with caution. This is not to be chastised, but instead should be commended.

Cave to pressure and release a crappy product full of holes...? That's Microsoft thinking.

Naw, I prefer them to remain the high end product they are...

[Dannii]

I think that 2.0 would be the perfect time for it.  It is a time when the changes are severe enough that it will cause a great majority of current themes and mods to need to be rewritten.  That gives an open opportunity for those things to be recreated or redone based on whatever new theme, which would lead to a better propagation of things down the road, rather than having the majority of themes and such be using an outdated code base.

The perfect time was alpha 1...

[riker]

No, a small minority of people want a paint job. Most people want the entire theme to be rewritten from the ground up.

Is that a fact or an opinion put down as a fact ?

[Dannii]

It's a fact among people whose opinions I consider worth considering?

[Ben_S]

There should be a AJAX option to be able to dynamically resize the "input-window" like Vbulletin does.

Why would you use AJAX when simple javascript would do the job? What is it with the buzzword AJAX that people wrongly use it for all manner of things.