My SMF 2 Beta Feedback

[Dario]

Hi all. I really hope the devs get this.

My SMF 2 Beta feedback so far:

- The theme of this board is beautiful for a default. Not sure about the orange forum title text when viewing the list of forums, or the yellow/brown category text in the header of each forum section, but other than that, it's looking great. Best default skin I've seen so far, for a forum.

(from here on out, I'll just focus on the things that I think need improvement. My overall view of SMF 2 is very positive (emphasis here), but I'll just highlight things that I think could use adjustment... so this post will seem a lot more negative than I intend to get across, just because it focuses on issues, not qualities)

- I think the post box (whatever it's called) where you write your posts, desperately needs the ability to be resized. (it's 2 inches tall on my 19" screen) When I'm writing longer messages (like this one) and posting images that are previewed inside the posting box, I can reeeeeally feel the squeeze.

- Above the post box, is there an easy way to implement an expandable cell where you can hide the less-used buttons? ATM, it's considerably messy, and non-advanced users who are easily intimidated (a crushing majority of users out there - none of whom you will come across on THIS forum) will do this thing called "dang-I'm-scared-by-all-those-scary-buttons, time-to-look-away-and-forget-whatever-I-was-trying-to-do".

- When you post a message, by default you're kicked back into the thread list. Drives me nuts, because I want to re-read my posts 100% of the time.

- I've personally never liked the default smileys. (for any SMF version). If you want, you can use the smileys I made for my forum (you can see them here) as a base to work off for a new set: http://www.gunreal.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.msg12#msg12 -- It's a small set (incomplete), but I far prefer having a basic set of easy-to-choose, core-expression smileys, than a huge set that makes you have to look at them for a while before you can find what you're looking for. (which is usually a basic expression anyway). Either way, I would personally MUCH like to see a more oldschool, simplified smiley set for the final 2.0 release. I'm anti-have-a-big-variety-just-because-you-can.

- Non-advanced users (and advanced users alike) who are not completely comfortable with SMF's layout are going to have a field day trying to find the "Reply - Notify - Add Poll - etc" buttons in the bottom-right / top-right. These desperately need to be brought WAYYYYYY out into the spotlight (I would personally make them into actual buttons - you know, text with images behind them), and to the left side of the screen, where the human eye naturally searches first. If you study art, you will be taught to arrange your composition from left to right, because that's how you take in what you're seeing. Also, in our modern world, you rarely find any kind of important functions off to the right... and important things of any kind are usually made clearly visible, especially when 99% of your core users are not technologically savvy, and need all the help they can get. (I'm completely against all the people who say cater only to the super-hardcore, and let the noobs eat dirt. Once upon a time I was one of them,  but I've learned that you can still cater to the super-hardcore without making things "stupid", if you specifically set out to do that. In fact, those types of interfaces (like Word 2007 for instance) usually pwn all else anyway, because they cross into the realm of feeling like they were built "smart", and not just fully-featured)

- I can't find a way to add a hyperlink to text without the link fully showing. Example: [I want this text here] to be a link, but all I can do is put the link after it, like this: http://www.simplemachines.org/ -- This is a huge con for me.

- The button area above the post box has some non-standard ways of labeling and arranging text-tools. Example: "Font Face" should just say what font you're currently using, "Font Size" should show the font size, etc... and it would be handy if they were arranged more like standard word-processors, so you don't have to "learn" another layout for dealing with text, and can do everything as you're comfortable with. This is even more important for non-advanced users (the huge majority).

- The "Pages: [1] 2 3  ... 5" at the bottom-left is easy for noobs to completely miss, and so they might not ever know that many threads go on for multiple pages. We forum veterans are completely used to it, but there has to be a better way to do this. I don't think any forum system out there gets this right yet, IMO. Google search results have this easy-to-see bar down there, some websites have giant < and > arrows with page numbers whenever you can view other pages, etc, but forums are pretty much confined to these minuscule buttons that many people just aren't going to see. I think if forum layouts a whole are made universally accessible to the masses, you will see an explosion in forum users who normally would have never gotten involved.

I think that's everything! I look forward to the 2.0 release... [this is my forum] ... oops: http://www.gunreal.com/forum/index.php -- My video game is in beta too at the moment, so I have a short time to get my forum polished before we go 1.0. And my game is this: http://www.deefrag.com/


- Dario D.

[SleePy]

Hi all. I really hope the devs get this.

My SMF 2 Beta feedback so far:

- The theme of this board is beautiful for a default. Not sure about the orange forum title text when viewing the list of forums, or the yellow/brown category text in the header of each forum section, but other than that, it's looking great. Best default skin I've seen so far, for a forum.

Are you talking about the theme here or the actual one currently in 2.0 Beta 3 Public?

- I think the post box (whatever it's called) where you write your posts, desperately needs the ability to be resized. (it's 2 inches tall on my 19" screen) When I'm writing longer messages (like this one) and posting images that are previewed inside the posting box, I can reeeeeally feel the squeeze.

That can be changed locally by editing the source files. There currently isn't an easy way to change it, but thats what mods are for 

- Above the post box, is there an easy way to implement an expandable cell where you can hide the less-used buttons? ATM, it's considerably messy, and non-advanced users who are easily intimidated (a crushing majority of users out there - none of whom you will come across on THIS forum) will do this thing called "dang-I'm-scared-by-all-those-scary-buttons, time-to-look-away-and-forget-whatever-I-was-trying-to-do".

Seems interesting, But you could yourself remove the calls to these buttons and have them hidden. As well mods could do this

- When you post a message, by default you're kicked back into the thread list. Drives me nuts, because I want to re-read my posts 100% of the time.

By default and it can be set in your profile.

- I've personally never liked the default smileys. (for any SMF version). If you want, you can use the smileys I made for my forum (you can see them here) as a base to work off for a new set: http://www.gunreal.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.msg12#msg12 -- It's a small set (incomplete), but I far prefer having a basic set of easy-to-choose, core-expression smileys, than a huge set that makes you have to look at them for a while before you can find what you're looking for. (which is usually a basic expression anyway). Either way, I would personally MUCH like to see a more oldschool, simplified smiley set for the final 2.0 release. I'm anti-have-a-big-variety-just-because-you-can.

Yea, they do seem kinda old, just not much work has been done with them really. Maybe with all the theme changes planned for the next release of 2.0 we might see it changed.

- Non-advanced users (and advanced users alike) who are not completely comfortable with SMF's layout are going to have a field day trying to find the "Reply - Notify - Add Poll - etc" buttons in the bottom-right / top-right. These desperately need to be brought WAYYYYYY out into the spotlight (I would personally make them into actual buttons - you know, text with images behind them), and to the left side of the screen, where the human eye naturally searches first. If you study art, you will be taught to arrange your composition from left to right, because that's how you take in what you're seeing. Also, in our modern world, you rarely find any kind of important functions off to the right... and important things of any kind are usually made clearly visible, especially when 99% of your core users are not technologically savvy, and need all the help they can get. (I'm completely against all the people who say cater only to the super-hardcore, and let the noobs eat dirt. Once upon a time I was one of them,  but I've learned that you can still cater to the super-hardcore without making things "stupid", if you specifically set out to do that. In fact, those types of interfaces (like Word 2007 for instance) usually pwn all else anyway, because they cross into the realm of feeling like they were built "smart", and not just fully-featured)

It is interesting because I have always liked it off to the right, Its out of the way for going to multiple pages while I am reading topics.

- I can't find a way to add a hyperlink to text without the link fully showing. Example: [I want this text here] to be a link, but all I can do is put the link after it, like this: http://www.simplemachines.org/ -- This is a huge con for me.

You can use [url=http://simplemachines.org]I want this text here[/url] and it will generate: I want this text here. It doesn't appear the default url bbc button allows you to put a name in.

[/nobbc]

- The button area above the post box has some non-standard ways of labeling and arranging text-tools. Example: "Font Face" should just say what font you're currently using, "Font Size" should show the font size, etc... and it would be handy if they were arranged more like standard word-processors, so you don't have to "learn" another layout for dealing with text, and can do everything as you're comfortable with. This is even more important for non-advanced users (the huge majority).

That is interesting, though different word processors have different layouts. So this wouldn't help much besides confuse people whether they are in a word processing program or really posting.

- The "Pages: [1] 2 3  ... 5" at the bottom-left is easy for noobs to completely miss, and so they might not ever know that many threads go on for multiple pages. We forum veterans are completely used to it, but there has to be a better way to do this. I don't think any forum system out there gets this right yet, IMO. Google search results have this easy-to-see bar down there, some websites have giant < and > arrows with page numbers whenever you can view other pages, etc, but forums are pretty much confined to these minuscule buttons that many people just aren't going to see. I think if forum layouts a whole are made universally accessible to the masses, you will see an explosion in forum users who normally would have never gotten involved.

That is also interesting because when I first used google i couldn't for my llife figure out how to get more search results. It took me a couple weeks to figure that out. I don't think most people realize though in smf 2.0 you can click the dots and have it show more page links.

For the most part in general, when I go to a forum, no mater the software I usually look quickly around for the post links and page links. It doesn't take me long usually althought I have came across some weird software that makes it really hard to find these links and it feels like you must do a dance to get the Page links to show :P

Thanks for the feedback, It is quiet interesting to see such comparisons to what I consider normal.

[Dario]

Are you talking about the theme here or the actual one currently in 2.0 Beta 3 Public?

The theme on this particular forum. I haven't tested 2.0 beta aside from coming HERE to mess around with it. (I haven't used the admin tools of 2.0, but that's okay, because I think giving feedback from the average-user point of view is infinitely more important, anyway. I make video-games, so this mentality is part of my life)

Seems interesting, But you could yourself remove the calls to these buttons and have them hidden. As well mods could do this

Yeah, I like how just about anything can be done by editing the files... but the problem lies in the fact that if certain improvements are not made default, NOBODY will apply them... and so you can detract 25 points from the *overall* SMF user-experience.

It's like selling a whole neighborhood of family-oriented houses with no swings in the back... Anyone knows a swing is better for the kids, but maybe one in 20 families will actually take the time to install one, and so the quality of living declines overall.

By default and it can be set in your profile.

Same idea as above... What I would do is take a poll among average SMF users to see what they prefer (heh, but heaven-forbid that a poll is taken HERE, where only the super-hardcore and programmers roam. )

That is interesting, though different word processors have different layouts. So this wouldn't help much besides confuse people whether they are in a word processing program or really posting.

Well, look how the most common word processors do it: (and then we have vB's take on the same thing, at the bottom). I put it in order of personal preference, starting with my favorite methods on top:


(hmm, I can't show the image full-sized here. Link to full image: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/241/forumtexttoolstj1.jpg)

From top to bottom, we have Word 2007, Wordpad, Word 2007 again, then vB (just as an example of a forum that keeps the text tools arranged in a way that people are very familiar with).

One key element that they all share is that they start with Font and Text Size on the left, whereas SMF puts that way more to the right, with all of the text-tools almost as far away from the text box as possible (whereas most Office/Word apps have those tools touching the top of the text box, in the most logical place possible).

I show vB here, but I don't even think vB's overall tool arrangement is very good - I personally think all forums fail to have an attractive tool-box for the most part (they're all essentially just a pile of buttons, at least arranged with some sense of grouping) - but apps like Word 2007 and (very few) others shed light, I think, on how interface design in the future can really improve the entire experience.

Without much thought, here's another couple seconds of messing with the SMF tool-box in Photoshop, to make it feel more... accessible for people who don't want/understand the extras, or just appreciate the clean look.


(full-sized image: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7189/forumtoolbox.jpg)

Notice the "show extras" button. The idea would be that a cell smoothly expands to reveal the extra buttons and smileys (almost like the sections on this page: http://www.launchy.net/#introduction)

That is also interesting because when I first used google i couldn't for my llife figure out how to get more search results. It took me a couple weeks to figure that out. I don't think most people realize though in smf 2.0 you can click the dots and have it show more page links.

Yeah, if users can't figure it out, there's some issue there. Here's an idea of how one might do a pages bar where a lot more people might find it... It's just 2 minutes of Photoshop, using some vB forum as a template. (also notice the visibility and position of the Post Reply button that I moved to the left side)


(full-sized image: http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/6606/forumpagesbarfc8.jpg)

It is interesting because I have always liked it off to the right, Its out of the way for going to multiple pages while I am reading topics.

Hehe... believe me, I don't think you want something like a Reply button "out of the way".

In the above image, I put a nice, big Post Reply button on the left. I think this kind of attention to accessibility would makes forums in general become a much larger thing on the internet, because the water would be a lot less cold for those who are first getting in, so to speak.

I would go further with accessibility than just the above image, but this is just a brief, only half-thought-out venture in Photoshop, to get the idea across.

[Sarge]

Added to the bugtracker as a feature request for SMF 2.1 (I'm not sure if it can be pushed into SMF 2.0).

For team reference, the "bug" ID is 1945.

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

I'm not a developer here, I'm nothing more than an admin of a SMF based website for the last 2-3 years, but would like to comment on some of this.

- Above the post box, is there an easy way to implement an expandable cell where you can hide the less-used buttons? ATM, it's considerably messy, and non-advanced users who are easily intimidated (a crushing majority of users out there - none of whom you will come across on THIS forum) will do this thing called "dang-I'm-scared-by-all-those-scary-buttons, time-to-look-away-and-forget-whatever-I-was-trying-to-do".

There is really not that much buttons, and I am confident that many users start with just typing a message, and hitting post, without even thinking of the extra buttons until they are ready to learn more of them. If they are not afraid to use any of the major browsers, how do you think they would be frightened by what you see here?

- Non-advanced users (and advanced users alike) who are not completely comfortable with SMF's layout are going to have a field day trying to find the "Reply - Notify - Add Poll - etc" buttons in the bottom-right / top-right.

I could not disagree more. I have always found them to be logically positioned, and by default easy to spot, and never have heard of anyone that would like to change this on our forum...
And if you study art, you will learn that positioning is not about the direction, but location, location, proportions and perspectives... Relative measures, and the right positioning means more than the direction... At least this is what I have been tought... Direction only matters in motion...

- I can't find a way to add a hyperlink to text without the link fully showing. Example: [I want this text here] to be a link, but all I can do is put the link after it, like this: http://www.simplemachines.org/ -- This is a huge con for me.

I think I've seen some other feedback here as well, where people have asked for a way to insert a link via a popup, so that it would make this automatically. Could be useful. Or some information on how to make this manually..

- The button area above the post box has some non-standard ways of labeling and arranging text-tools. Example: "Font Face" should just say what font you're currently using, "Font Size" should show the font size, etc... and it would be handy if they were arranged more like standard word-processors, so you don't have to "learn" another layout for dealing with text, and can do everything as you're comfortable with. This is even more important for non-advanced users (the huge majority).

I agree with this, would be simpler for some to understand and use.

- The "Pages: [1] 2 3  ... 5" at the bottom-left is easy for noobs to completely miss, and so they might not ever know that many threads go on for multiple pages. We forum veterans are completely used to it, but there has to be a better way to do this. I don't think any forum system out there gets this right yet, IMO. Google search results have this easy-to-see bar down there, some websites have giant < and > arrows with page numbers whenever you can view other pages, etc, but forums are pretty much confined to these minuscule buttons that many people just aren't going to see. I think if forum layouts a whole are made universally accessible to the masses, you will see an explosion in forum users who normally would have never gotten involved.

You can find the same "Pages: [1] 2 3  ... 5" at the top left as well, and you can see the page numbers on the board index as well, so I really think they are hard to miss. And I've never heard of anyone before that this wouldn't work...

[metallica48423]

Thank you for the feedback.

[karlbenson]

Indeed thanks for posting.
It was a long, but nice read.

Since you've spent the time to write something so long, its only fair that you get some feedback on it.
These are my own personal thoughts/tastes, not reflective of smf or anyone else, but me.

Alot of your points
> Can be done already
- Re-direct back to post (Per-User: via profile or By Default for everyone: via Admin)
- Altering how many pages in the little menu are shown per page (eg show 20 pages if you must)
> Are theme related
> Down to personal taste
- BBCodes organisation
> Currently possible with modification
- Expand postbox size. (although with the wysiwyg padding, it does take 20px off the size by default)

Also please consider, left-to-right isn't always better accessibility wise. There are people who are right-to-left. Again this can be down to personal taste.
And personally I dislike having anything on 'Dropdown' hover or click menus.  It may look more organised, but its less user-friendly, requires extra actions, and so for me is a timewaster.

As for standardization of the WYSIWYG. I thought it was in a reflective general order.  But probably for legal reasons we can't (and shouldn't) try to turn the wysiwyg into a MSWord/OpenOffice clone.
SMF should be breaking new ground

[Joshua Dickerson]

I have to agree. The current organization is not ideal. Although, I am not exactly sure how it should be done. I rarely use full-reply and when I do, most of the time I type out the BBC (I am definitely a "power user"). I would like to see a new post box arrangement in practice. Your image is dead now. I would like to see glow/marquee/shadow moved some place where they are never seen. The toggle view and remove formatting buttons should be done totally different. I think of that area as a BBC box. I agree with regularexpression that SMF should be ground breaking. Does that mean it should break forum ground or all applications ground? I think for this, editors have broken enough ground and done enough research.

[Dario]

Your image is dead now.

Oops. Here it is:

(full-sized image: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7189/forumtoolbox.jpg)

Btw, I guess my proposed solution for the smileys bar in the pic would be to have it expand when you hover over it... and not show a TON of smileys, but a good range of basic ones, like maybe 10 or so (2 rows)... but using different images, more like these ones I made for my forum:

If desired, SMF could use these without credit. (and yes, they are similar, but DIFFERENT than some of the the ones here) I made them for sale on Istockphoto (needed some dough for something at the time), but then never posted them.

[Joshua Dickerson]

I would like to see that themed. Looks good. Where is the WYSIWYG toggle switch? I would like to see that on the left side of the post/preview buttons. All the way in the corner. Not sure what kind of icon you would use for that though. The current one doesn't fit IMO.

[Dario]

Where is the WYSIWYG toggle switch?

Oh, you mean the button that switches between the code view, where you see the brackets, and the formatted preview? You're right, I completely forgot about that.

[metallica48423]

I actually really like it.  It's fresh, but still functional.

I think i'll bring it up in the Curve discussion board and see what others think

[Joshua Dickerson]

Where is the WYSIWYG toggle switch?

Oh, you mean the button that switches between the code view, where you see the brackets, and the formatted preview? You're right, I completely forgot about that.

So, have you considered creating this as a template?

[Dario]

So, have you considered creating this as a template?

Not sure what you mean by that. You mean a post-box template for use in an SMF theme? I'm not a coder, but if that's what you mean, I DO walk that alley somewhat; I'm currently working with a programmer on a WordPress skin (this here), but of course I do the art/design, not the code.

I think i'll bring it up in the Curve discussion board and see what others think  

Woot. What's the Curve discussion board?

[Joshua Dickerson]

A private board.