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Threaded view

Started by Tilla, August 13, 2008, 09:07:54 PM

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pbpbpb

Okay. I do not understand this. I am very disappointed that SMF does not offer the threaded view. And the argument is that it is no good? PLEASSSSE.
This is based on what kind of judgement? See my post here is actually in reply to NAO's post "Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 06:46:17 AM "
How would you know that with a quick glance?
You would know with a threaded view.

I mean the developers of SMF came up with a good product and then left out "threaded view". Why?

Because Nao tried it once... for how long? and only 2 people liked it? Two people out of how many? How many did NOT like it?

I was so sold on SMF. Love all the other features, but no threaded view? Look how many people are asking for it now. Well, I will have to go with MyBB. And that although I like SMF better.



pbpbpb

And btw, what do you think is the first option in the
hxxp:www.forummatrix.org [nonactive] "choice wizard"?

Nibogo

Nobody says of the threaded view is not a good feature, they just think of there are other features and bugs to be fixed, Is a lot better to have a stable, fast and simple forum system, maybe someone create a mod for this or maybe this will be added for a future SMF but for SMF 2.0 we are feature frozed so please be patient, create the mod or you are free to left SMF if it's not what you are looking for

青山 素子

Quote from: pbpbpb on May 28, 2009, 10:05:20 PM
Okay. I do not understand this. I am very disappointed that SMF does not offer the threaded view. And the argument is that it is no good? PLEASSSSE.

Actually, it was because it's descended spiritually from YaBB SE, which was also flat-only.

Opening a solely threaded view adds some complexity when working only in that mode. As I noted before, reconnecting child posts in the tree from a deleted post and managing other things including multi-quotes gets really complex. Turning that into a hybrid view just adds more complexity.

This certainly won't be in 2.0 simply because of the complexity involved. As it is, 2.0 is a huge restructure of the foundation of SMF. We don't need to add more code to upset it.

If you look, most forums are actually flat-only. Very few are threaded, and just as few are hybrid.


Quote from: pbpbpb on May 28, 2009, 10:05:20 PM
I mean the developers of SMF came up with a good product and then left out "threaded view". Why?

Because it wasn't in the original design specs. It's like asking why a 1998 model car doesn't have an MP3 jack. Well, not quite, but it's just as silly a question.


Quote from: pbpbpb on May 28, 2009, 10:05:20 PM
I was so sold on SMF. Love all the other features, but no threaded view? Look how many people are asking for it now.

Under 10 unique individuals of how many actual regular posters here? Heck, we had more people asking for paid subscriptions (which is now in 2.0).

You are welcome to request a mod, or have someone write a modification for the mode. I know Nao's code doesn't handle some of the more complex situations, so all that logic would also have to be developed.
Motoko-chan
Director, Simple Machines

Note: Unless otherwise stated, my posts are not representative of any official position or opinion of Simple Machines.


Nao 尚

Long post ahead! Sorry!

Quote from: Motoko-chan on May 28, 2009, 10:56:46 PM
This certainly won't be in 2.0 simply because of the complexity involved. As it is, 2.0 is a huge restructure of the foundation of SMF. We don't need to add more code to upset it.
+1... I offered my hack for all to see but I also said that I wasn't happy with it ;) It was more a (working) proof of concept than anything else. However, it could still be used as a secondary (non-default) view type. This would pretty much eliminate the quick reply option anyway. Also, when parent messages are deleted, children messages would simply become children of the main topic, rather than children of another message. That's a fair trade for me.
I think it could be envisioned for SMF 2.1 but only as such an implementation: quick, dirty and probably not satisfying as a default view type.

QuoteIf you look, most forums are actually flat-only. Very few are threaded, and just as few are hybrid.
Actually, I looked at that comparison website, and compared all sites. I quickly counted them, and 32 boards are flat only, while 23 (+/-1?) are threaded or hybrid, with about 18 boards being hybrid. So that's not "very few". Or course, it will only be interesting to take into account the "big boys". Of them, hybrid forums are often not free (vBulletin, IPB). The only free hybrid alternatives would be MyBB and Phorum. MyBB being probably a better choice in terms of features overall. So it comes down to choosing between MyBB and SMF and that's all.

If hybrid mode is very important to you, then choose MyBB. If not, then choose SMF. (Or choose MyBB anyway, but I really don't know much about it, apart from the fact that it's rather well known these days.)

QuoteBecause it wasn't in the original design specs. It's like asking why a 1998 model car doesn't have an MP3 jack. Well, not quite, but it's just as silly a question.
Threaded view is actually the original thing... Think newsgroups ;) Messages are always sorted by thread. I remember when I first visited the first web boards (not the very early non-open source ones which really sucked, but the early versions of phpBB and IPB), "why are they showing all messages chronologically? It's hard to follow a conversation!"
Then again, SMF added the ability to choose messages to split together into a new topic, so I'm cool with that. Of course, threaded mode would allow a one-click split of a whole conversation, but that's really, really, the main reason why I wanted to implement threaded mode in the first place, more than the philosophy of having threaded/flat view in itself. As far as I can remember, when I added threaded mode to my site (on a single topic), people actually complained that it was making things more complicated. If it had been threaded by default since the beginning, they might have liked it (no one ever complained about my threaded boards at http://dossiers.cyna.fr, and no one even used the flat alternative I made for them), but then again they got used to the flat version and didn't see a good reason to switch to something else.

So, all in all, I'd say:

- threaded is better for following a whole conversation in one go,
- flat is better for following a conversation as time goes by (with new posts appearing below),
- whichever you use first will become the de facto favorite of your users, and they will tend to reject the alternative.
- it would still be interesting to have a "id_parent" entry in the messages table, if only to be able to put a link to the previous message automatically. Of course, if people use the Quote button properly, quoted messages are correctly linked back.

Quote
Quote from: pbpbpb on May 28, 2009, 10:05:20 PM
I was so sold on SMF. Love all the other features, but no threaded view? Look how many people are asking for it now.
Under 10 unique individuals of how many actual regular posters here? Heck, we had more people asking for paid subscriptions (which is now in 2.0).
I wouldn't say that -- sometimes, people "get" something only after they've been shown it in action. You can actually convert a whole slice of population to something they didn't think they'd like. But in the case of forums, threaded mode is old news, and it's just not the same, so I'm afraid I have to agree with Motoko-chan on this. And I was probably one of the most motivated users on this area -- enough to actually get a proof of concept to work. The very fact that I removed that mode from my site should lead requesters to think about whether it's not something they can't live without.

QuoteYou are welcome to request a mod, or have someone write a modification for the mode. I know Nao's code doesn't handle some of the more complex situations, so all that logic would also have to be developed.
It probably handles 95% of situations just fine, especially for such a small amount of code. But 95% is not enough for prime time of course. :)
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Aeva Media rocks your life.

KitCar

From look at the code posted here I'm thinking these edits are for pre-2.0 SMF - anyone have any idea how difficult it would be to add this functionality to SMF 2.0?

Nao 尚

My code? It was written on a SMF2 beta (the latest available at that time).
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Aeva Media rocks your life.

Arantor

Nao: Someone has asked about making this a mod. Have you any objection to anyone else updating it and packaging it for current versions (credited or otherwise)?

Nao 尚

No objection. That's why I posted the code in the first place -- so that someone repackages it.
I'd like a credit for it though, yes ;)
And I may be interested in joining that mod's team, too. As a backup programmer, like I did for SMG back in the days.
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Aeva Media rocks your life.

Arantor

Thanks, Nao - just that if the mod does get packaged (won't be by me), there's no debate or doubt over permissions or copyright.

Nao 尚

Yeah, no copyright, I don't care. Just a small credit somewhere is fine. And making it free, of course. (I don't believe in pay-only mods.) Maybe I should have pointed this out. Anyway. If it gets done, all for the best!
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Aeva Media rocks your life.

KitCar

Just to fill in some background where the question came from - I have a $50 bounty right now open to convert the code into a proper free mod (see http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=352940.msg2397570 ) (I would do it myself but don't have the skills...)

Nao 尚

Uh. You're paying someone to convert the code I posted for free? If that's the spirit now...........

Why didn't you contact me in the first place, anyway? You realize I had no skills in mod making back when I posted this, but I do now?
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Aeva Media rocks your life.

KitCar

I was going to contact you directly first, but then noticed the 'No unrequested PMs, please' below your Avatar, and decided against it - that's why I posted the link here actually, in hopes you would notice it...

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone - my goal here really is just to get something packaged and released to the community in an expedited manner.... I don't want to step on any toes or anything

Nao 尚

Unrequested PMs = PMs that ask for support instead of asking in the related topics. You wouldn't believe how many such PMs I've received. Topics are there for a reason. I also receive PMs from people asking me how to install SMF (yes, SMF), probably because they clicked on the first membergroup they found on the homepage ('Beta Testers') and I'm in that short list. Beta Testers aren't even official SMF Team Members, lol... (I have yet to be told why :P Apparently it's a transit membergroup but I've been on it for a couple of years now, lol. I've beaten longevity records as a beta tester.)

Anyway, that's unrelated to the subject. You could simply have posted in this very thread to ask me. I would have seen your post, just as I saw the activity here. (If you see a topic on which I posted, you can be sure I'll see it in my latest unread replies page, obviously.)

And no, I'm not upset or anything. I just find it silly that you didn't ask me, given that it's a very old topic, and I've been making mods for the entire last year.
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Aeva Media rocks your life.

rbeuker

Ok, here's your 11th individual who would LOVE it if SMF would add threaded view. IMHO, the main big disadvantage of the current view is that it's sometimes hard to see what particular message someone is responding to. The Forums that CompuServe was running 15 yrs ago had threadview. I remember when they changed their Forumsoftware--lots of angry members demanding that their threadview would be returned! ;)

With a lot of quoting the non threaded view is also quite good to use--I have gotten used to it, too. However, if the good 'ole threaded view could return...that would be so awesome :D

It's probably a matter of 'you do not know what you miss until you have used it before'. And because the majority of Forums these days do not have threaded views, the majority of people do not know about it and also do not ask the SMF people to make it for them. It's almost a chicken/egg problem! :P ;)

Nao 尚

Quote from: rbeuker on December 29, 2009, 03:55:38 PM
Ok, here's your 11th individual who would LOVE it if SMF would add threaded view. IMHO, the main big disadvantage of the current view is that it's sometimes hard to see what particular message someone is responding to.
Hmm... How about clicking the Quote link above the quote? It should link you to the original post...
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Aeva Media rocks your life.

pss7

is theres till no mod for this important feature?

Clara Listensprechen

Quote from: Dannii on August 13, 2008, 09:44:18 PM
I actually find it very hard to use. I much prefer a flat forum with lots of quoting.
I'm posting in this thread not only because I've checked the Notification box and want a link to this thread, but also to comment on Danii's attitude which reflects the problem of "dealing with customers" that persists on being a difficulty here. This is the Bill Gates attitude, which states that Bill Gates knows what the customer wants better than the customer does.

The customer knows what the customer wants better than the coders do, and this will ALWAYS be the case. People who consider themselves professionals simply because they collect money for services are badly mistaken about what the word "professional" means.
I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those who are now possible remain possible. {Michael Bakunin 1814-1876}

Kindred

Clara,

As I said in the other thread... "The Customer" can know what they want - fine. However...  "The customer" in the case of this forum software is ALL of our userbase, not just YOU. You can request a feature, but unless a significant number of OUR customers indicate that they also desire that feature, then it counts as "bloat" since only a minority would ever use (or even desire) that feature.
Since our goal is to work with our customer base AS A GROUP, and we only have a limited number of developers to do the work, we have to determine what features are desired by a significant number and work on those.
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

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