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Author Topic: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything  (Read 248713 times)

Offline SoLoGHoST

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #80 on: July 30, 2009, 05:55:08 AM »
Yeah, but without these MODS keeping users coming back to see what's new, and building new users into coders for SMF, what will SMF do without these users??  Sure, this is probably about 1/2 of the users here, if not more.  So if there is nothing more to get for it, why bother coming back here at all.  Or if there is no thrill in creating a MOD that just makes you happy to make someone else's day, well, what's the point of even trying then, if it just isn't even possible.  Thing is, SMF 1.1.x versions, though a bit more crude in modifying as opposed to SMF 2.0.x, is still being modified more and more today.  Not to say that anything is wrong with it, but just to say that MOD authors can go to great lengths to make someone else happy, so why shouldn't they be happy coders :P??  IMO, I think SMF focusing a bit on the "Developer" was a smart move on their part.  The new database functions also make it more secure than SMF 1.1.x.  I personally feel that the more flexible a software app is, the more success it will have in the long run, since it will attract a bigger crowd.  Just cause a software app is flexible, doesn't mean that it is less secure.  Many people confuse these 2 IMO.  Just like many people are confused into thinking that Small Special Purpose Applications run better than Large Multipurpose Applications that does the same thing that the Small Special Purpose Applications do, with more added features, etc..  Or that, in order for something to be good, it can not be FREE!  Just my 2 cents, anyways, off main topic.  Or am I??  Topic title says "And Everything"
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 06:06:35 AM by SoLoGHoST »

Offline aldo

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2009, 06:58:22 PM »
no offence but i can't see how 2.0 is technologically a step forward.

it's still hardcoded in many ways, you still need to patch core files and template to add mods or hacks.

it's not therefore a real "modular" forum architecture, it's kept all together with duct tape and strings
which is the obvious reason it takes years to debug and release a stable version.


hard coded is much much better.

I am working on my own little 'thing' (CMS) and one of my other friends and I talked about making a mod system which uses an API (Little to no modification of the core system) or a mod system (Much like SMF's) which allows mod creators to modify the core files.

Let me tell you this. My other friend makes modifications for friends using a forum system (MyBB) which uses an API system. When he makes modifications to MyBB, he modifies the files themselves. He doesn't use the API. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not bashing MyBB in any way. But having callbacks and hooks and whatever for modification systems may work, but it limits what a developer can do.

Because a developer might need to edit a specific piece of code, while using hooks, which are done every so often can only be placed every so often. I mean the developers of the system aren't going to put hooks in every nook and cranny of the system as that would be, well insane.

By allowing mod creators to modify the core files, it can be hazardous for the fact that anyone can do just about anything, but that can be solved by having a team like SMF has to review the modifications before putting them up for people to download.

Both ways have plus and minuses, but if you want to get a big and active developing community, and you want elaborate modifications, you need to allow them to develop the core files, otherwise, you won't end up with good modifications. You will end up with simple modifications, which are okay, but you should also be able to offer modifications which can change the whole functioning of the system.

Hope I made sense :P But what SMF is doing for modifications is one of the best I have ever seen.

Offline Waffadrunker

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2009, 06:47:59 PM »
Well explained aldo & sologhost :)

Offline Yigal

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2009, 01:14:50 AM »
Sorry for going off topic, but what happened to regularexpression?
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Offline shadow82x

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2009, 01:17:13 AM »
Sorry for going off topic, but what happened to regularexpression?
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/team.php

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Offline Yigal

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2009, 01:22:28 AM »
LOL thanks...I didn't know what happened :P
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Offline Kenny01

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2009, 04:10:23 AM »
Sorry for going off topic, but what happened to regularexpression?
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/team.php

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Ok, he's the same guy, just with a new name. Good to know.

Offline searchgr

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2009, 05:13:43 AM »


I know most of you are eager to know when RC2 will be released. Unfortunately, I cannot say. Personally however, I am counting on a release this summer. :)

Aaron

Any news? This is the last month of the summer :)

Offline gonemental

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2009, 05:21:25 AM »
hard coded is great as long as you dont plan any radical change in the near future nor any radical hack in the core or template.

for anything else im sorry but the whole software world went modular a very long time ago and rightfully never looked back.

p.s.
why not implementing a sort of "template overrides" like joomla 1.5.xx ?

Offline Dragooon

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2009, 07:24:47 AM »
Sorry for going off topic, but what happened to regularexpression?
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/team.php

karlbenson - Developer
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Ok, he's the same guy, just with a new name. Good to know.
Actually a better term would be, he's the same guy just with his old name.

Offline Arantor

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #90 on: August 04, 2009, 07:31:37 AM »
gonemental: as noted above other systems that are allegedly designed to be modular are not used that way. SMF is not modular because 2.0 is still working reasonably closely to the structure of 1.1 and to deviate is a complete throw-everything-away rewrite, something I don't see happening even for 3.0, let alone 2.1.

Which would you rather have: performance or modularity? How often do you modify the code to SMF? Personally as a mod author I find it is modular enough already.
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Offline Fustrate

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #91 on: August 04, 2009, 11:48:30 AM »
To me, the "modular" debate is just like the "semantic" debate. Yes, everyone is moving away from tables for design, but they're still supposed to be used for tabular data. Would you really try to make a table out of floated divs, or use something that makes sense, like a table?

Same thing with this "modular" thing. Would you rather have the whole thing in insanely small pieces with hooks and callbacks all over the place, or use a system that allows you do change anything anywhere? If I want to change the karma system to send 2 karma instead of 1, how would I use a hook to do that? It's a core edit, plain and simple.

As for RC2 during summer, yes, it's still summer :)
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Offline Arantor

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #92 on: August 04, 2009, 11:50:17 AM »
Thanks, Fustrate - explained it in a way I never could have :)
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Offline Kenny01

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #93 on: August 04, 2009, 02:48:37 PM »
Sorry for going off topic, but what happened to regularexpression?
http://www.simplemachines.org/about/team.php

karlbenson - Developer
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Ok, he's the same guy, just with a new name. Good to know.
Actually a better term would be, he's the same guy just with his old name.
hmmm! teacher.

Offline Yigal

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #94 on: August 04, 2009, 02:49:55 PM »
To me, the "modular" debate is just like the "semantic" debate. Yes, everyone is moving away from tables for design, but they're still supposed to be used for tabular data. Would you really try to make a table out of floated divs, or use something that makes sense, like a table?

Same thing with this "modular" thing. Would you rather have the whole thing in insanely small pieces with hooks and callbacks all over the place, or use a system that allows you do change anything anywhere? If I want to change the karma system to send 2 karma instead of 1, how would I use a hook to do that? It's a core edit, plain and simple.

As for RC2 during summer, yes, it's still summer :)
For the Summer quote...not so much here in Calgary....10 degrees and 100% humidity ... o.O...

I am looking forward to RC2 as well, to see some good changes ;D
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Offline Kenny01

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #95 on: August 04, 2009, 03:11:49 PM »
I'm not looking for it, because it mean re-hacking my board to make it look how i want it.

Offline searchgr

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #96 on: August 04, 2009, 05:07:17 PM »
Spring Starts-March 21st
Summer Starts-June 21st
Fall Starts-September 21st
Winter Starts-December 21st

Offline aldo

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2009, 01:53:11 AM »
hard coded is great as long as you dont plan any radical change in the near future nor any radical hack in the core or template.

for anything else im sorry but the whole software world went modular a very long time ago and rightfully never looked back.

p.s.
why not implementing a sort of "template overrides" like joomla 1.5.xx ?

Not true at all. If the system with hooks and callbacks had a major update, the modification still wouldn't work for a few reasons:
1) The hook/callback you are using was moved to a different place or no longer exists
2) If there was a major update, you would have to update your hooks and callbacks because of the major updates, the code would not be the same, and not do what is expected.

Offline gonemental

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2009, 05:17:52 PM »
gonemental: as noted above other systems that are allegedly designed to be modular are not used that way. SMF is not modular because 2.0 is still working reasonably closely to the structure of 1.1 and to deviate is a complete throw-everything-away rewrite, something I don't see happening even for 3.0, let alone 2.1.

Which would you rather have: performance or modularity? How often do you modify the code to SMF? Personally as a mod author I find it is modular enough already.

trust me, by all means it's cheaper to pay for a faster server than wasting hours or days or even weeks hacking into the hardcoded core files.

there's a very good reason why any medium or big sized projects are ALL modular and not hardcoded.
and modular doesn't mean extremes like microkernel and 1000s of files, you can fine tune the whole thing in order to retain a decent speed.

i mean, Twitter is written in RUBY ON RAILS, one of the slowest scriptings ever, and yet they manage to run millions of users at once, the coder himself complained about the slowness of Ruby but guess what the fix was buying more server power and problem solved.

FACEBOOK is written in PHP an works fine but it scales like s-hit facing millions of users at once.
The fix was more server power and a partial rewrite in C++ in the most cpu-intensive scripts.

yet, without being modular there could be NO facebook nor wikipedia nor any big php project
unless you're so crazy to make it all hardcoded and waste a few years of your life debugging the whole
beast.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 05:35:36 PM by gonemental »

Offline gonemental

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Re: SMF Dev Blog #42: The Blog About Life, The Universe And Everything
« Reply #99 on: August 05, 2009, 05:27:58 PM »
hard coded is great as long as you dont plan any radical change in the near future nor any radical hack in the core or template.

for anything else im sorry but the whole software world went modular a very long time ago and rightfully never looked back.

p.s.
why not implementing a sort of "template overrides" like joomla 1.5.xx ?

Not true at all. If the system with hooks and callbacks had a major update, the modification still wouldn't work for a few reasons:
1) The hook/callback you are using was moved to a different place or no longer exists
2) If there was a major update, you would have to update your hooks and callbacks because of the major updates, the code would not be the same, and not do what is expected.

you see, the issue with OSS and general "free" projects is they have this tendency to reinvent the wheel.

one day they wake up and announce the next version will be rewritten from scratch thus destroying any compatibility nor usually providing any decent migrator script, that's what they did for joomla 1.5 for instance and same will be with 1.6

on the other side UNIX can still run and compile crap written in the '70s, and Windows 7 can do the same with apps for DOS and Win 3.11 with some tweaks and emulation.

it's all a matter of wanting to do things right in the first place.
of course modular programming sucks if you change mind every other major release.

the only possible drawback against modular is speed, anything else is bad programming.

i mean why for instance SMF doesnt store xxx custom fields for user profiles, so just who knows
in future releases they might get handy ?

no, they dont, and then you need mods and hacks to add a damn custom field.
and this is just the tip of the iceberg, dont let me talk about templates, the guys running SMF
seems to think you either use their default template or you'll be doomed with 100s of patches
and hacks and wasted time to run a damn forum the way it should be by default and with no
questions asked.

for all this reasons i stick with 1.1.xx as there's no real gain in getting crazy patching and fixing
the 2.0.xx , i'll wait till it stable, maybe in 2010.