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Author Topic: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?  (Read 42551 times)

Offline rd

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2010, 01:45:56 PM »
To be idiot proof you must first get rid of these: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=379045.0

kinds of stuff.

1. It's basic spam
2. Wrong board
3. Pretty sure the person doesn't really understand being a webmaster :D


Offline Norv

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2010, 02:03:20 PM »
Please note that while comments, ideas and opinions, are welcome, attacks and basically insulting of other members is not. I'm afraid your post is at the edge of it, Royalduke. Please consider posting your opinions with a friendly and non patronizing tone, or don't do it at all.
Thank you for your understanding.
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Offline nend

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2010, 02:35:37 PM »
I may not be as smart in developing as some or most of the people in this thread, but I do know quite a bit I would like to think. Back then however I thought I knew quite a bit, boy was I wrong. Currently my development skills include in order they where learned, BASICs, BASICA, QBASICs, VB, PHP, ActionScript, JavaScript. Isn't it strange how when your younger you don't believe that old saying that the older the wiser.  ;)

It does bother me when people fail to look for their problems and expect a answer for a question without any details. What upsets me more is when they figure out their problem and fail to respond they fixed it.  >:(

But I myself have made dumb mistakes, even as a skilled developer. Allot of my mistakes however have to do with typos. Time consuming though, but it happens to us all.

And a toaster is not idiot proof when it comes to people and forks.

Offline NanoSector

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2010, 11:30:36 AM »
I'm one of the Kill-SMF-when-modifying-files people :P

Like stated in my signature,
Quote
I'm a batch (MS-DOS) programmer, don't ask me questions about PHP or CSS or your forum will be doomed.
And that's true.

Let me modify PHP files and the software associated with it dies.
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Offline nend

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2010, 12:18:52 PM »
I'm one of the Kill-SMF-when-modifying-files people :P

Like stated in my signature,
Quote
I'm a batch (MS-DOS) programmer, don't ask me questions about PHP or CSS or your forum will be doomed.
And that's true.

Let me modify PHP files and the software associated with it dies.

Don't want to rain on your parade but batch as in batch file in MS-DOS is not programming. It is some pretty basic stuff and all us older generation say that used computers in the early 90s and before know how to write batch files. Come on we needed them until a good enough OS was made to sort all the junk out.Even made a virus, dumb youth. Something that was asked from me and I made it.

Offline NanoSector

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2010, 12:41:51 PM »
I'm one of the Kill-SMF-when-modifying-files people :P

Like stated in my signature,
Quote
I'm a batch (MS-DOS) programmer, don't ask me questions about PHP or CSS or your forum will be doomed.
And that's true.

Let me modify PHP files and the software associated with it dies.

Don't want to rain on your parade but batch as in batch file in MS-DOS is not programming. It is some pretty basic stuff and all us older generation say that used computers in the early 90s and before know how to write batch files. Come on we needed them until a good enough OS was made to sort all the junk out.Even made a virus, dumb youth. Something that was asked from me and I made it.
Even if it was used in the early 90s why can't it be used in 2010?

I'm sorry but I like working in batch.
I'm actually having "fun" when writing those batch files and see that they are working.
Take a look at SMFTools, entirely written in Batch and still works pretty well.
I don't know if you want to ruin my fun but that is not gonna happen.
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Offline 青山 素子

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2010, 02:00:10 PM »
Come on we needed them until a good enough OS was made to sort all the junk out.

Scripts are still useful today. I create and manage several for my job to repeat tedious tasks. The other day I wrote a BASH script to automate the dumping and compression of Subversion repositories for backup of snapshots. I've also coded Perl scripts to create DNS zone files and re-build named.conf files for automated DNS management and wrote a file to parse a list of domains and sort out based on various criteria like non-existance, using NS other than what I want, using MX other than what I want, etc.

Just because Windows has a sucky script environment (I know no Windows server admins using WSH) doesn't mean scripts are useless. If anything, because of the modern complexity of computing, they are more useful than ever.
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Offline nend

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2010, 10:03:40 PM »
No don't want to ruin your fun. :D Just stating the obvious of how basic writing a batch file is and also I find your quote funny. Bringing down a site with a batch, not saying it isn't impossible though with the appropriate resources you can probably run a good DOS attack. I would recommend other ways though.

Don't want to poke much more about this. I had my ignorant youth days with something to prove and that is what your quote sorted reminded me of. I seen your sig before and just didn't mind it, but you quoted it in this post so I had to say something since apparently you feel so strongly about it. The ignorance of taking down a site with a batch file when there are allot better ways and talking about all this being illegal.

Come on we needed them until a good enough OS was made to sort all the junk out.

Scripts are still useful today. I create and manage several for my job to repeat tedious tasks. The other day I wrote a BASH script to automate the dumping and compression of Subversion repositories for backup of snapshots. I've also coded Perl scripts to create DNS zone files and re-build named.conf files for automated DNS management and wrote a file to parse a list of domains and sort out based on various criteria like non-existance, using NS other than what I want, using MX other than what I want, etc.

Just because Windows has a sucky script environment (I know no Windows server admins using WSH) doesn't mean scripts are useless. If anything, because of the modern complexity of computing, they are more useful than ever.

Scripts are always useful, I know the usefulness of them. I can make them either in BATCH, BASH, Basics, Basica, GW-Basics, Q-Basics, VB, JavaScript, ASI, ASII, ASIII & PHP. I haven't learned Perl though, no plans at this time to learn.

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2010, 10:13:19 AM »
Um, folks, can we sort of get back towards the original subject of making SMF as idiot proof as possible? Reminiscing about past glories as scripters is all well and good, and batch scripts (with a real, powerful scripting language) are of course very useful, but perhaps that should be over in the Chit Chat board?

Offline NanoSector

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2010, 04:01:06 PM »
Um, folks, can we sort of get back towards the original subject of making SMF as idiot proof as possible? Reminiscing about past glories as scripters is all well and good, and batch scripts (with a real, powerful scripting language) are of course very useful, but perhaps that should be over in the Chit Chat board?
Yes you are right.

Maybe you can change the text to "If you see this message you are hacked!" or something.
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Offline Kindred

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2010, 05:22:53 PM »
the problem with making things "idiot-proof" is that the idiots keep coming up with new ways to break things.
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Offline Kenny01

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2010, 06:58:36 PM »
the problem with making things "idiot-proof" is that the idiots keep coming up with new ways to break things.
That mean idiot proof is not the solution, but easy to use is the solution.

Offline shentino

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2010, 08:27:01 PM »
Speaking of "idiot proof" I recently made a suggestion (which much to my surprise got booed to hell and back) for an emergency back door.

I would like to suggest in the alternative that any helpful "unjamming" queries be posted to the FAQ and/or manual.  See my support topic on IP banning myself for a specific example.

One of the ways to "idiot-proof" something, apart from making it hard to break in the first place, is the next best alternative of making it easy to fix in the second place.

Offline Norv

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2010, 03:28:39 AM »
I agree with that as well, shentino. :)
Having good documentation, and perhaps good tools to help a broken case, is the next best thing.
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2010, 06:51:54 AM »
I think that is a much better solution and yes, we should do that. :)

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2010, 11:40:23 AM »
Good coding in the first place would help ease the burden on this forum. If my fixes for the SMF 1.1 Settings.php-being-emptied were implemented in 1.1.12, that would be a big help. Look through the forum for other common problems that keep getting reported (e.g., the ALTER TABLE ORDER BY LENGTH bug, the spurious "database upgrade required" warning, the problems with the database dump, etc.) and fix them, which would make SMF look so much better, and greatly reduce the number of problems reported here.

Part of the effort of building a good product is to pay attention to commonly reported problems, and make an attempt to fix them and get them out of the stream. It's a shame that the SMF developers refuse to fix very common problems in SMF 1.1, all because they want to drive users to 2.0 when it finally goes Gold. That's not the right way to do it. True, the idiots who won't bother to search for a problem and its fix in the forum are a royal PITA, but that's life. Part of making SMF more idiot-proof is to take the common bugs out of the product, so the common rabble won't keep encountering them. That's the core of "idiot-proofing" a product.

Add: The "eval disable" button must be part of the base code, so we don't have to keep telling people to add the mod when they report a bug.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 11:48:19 AM by MrPhil »

Offline Norv

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2010, 12:22:49 PM »
MrPhil: I understand your points of view, and agree with most of it. The focus HAS to be on 2.0 though, and it is a practical impossibility to do much in the way of maintenance for 1.1.x (- though we are going to take into account certain backports of major bugs) given the constraints the development team is facing.
The ALTER TABLE ORDER BY LENGTH issue has been solved in svn for 1.1.x as well, it should be available in 1.1.12.
I believe the Settings.php emptying issue is also taken into account for 1.1.x as well.
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Offline shentino

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2010, 05:44:49 PM »
Incidentally, I do consider MS-DOS batch files to be programming.  Just with a feature sparse language ;)

Offline Norv

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2010, 05:57:03 PM »
Ah, and the disabling eval feature is part of the core SMF in 2.0. :)
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Offline nend

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Re: How idiot-proof can SMF be made?
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2010, 12:13:39 AM »
Incidentally, I do consider MS-DOS batch files to be programming.  Just with a feature sparse language ;)


It matters what you consider programming. Yes it is a simple programming language, but to consider yourself a programmer by knowing how to code a couple simple lines in a bat file IMHO does not make you a programmer.

I agree with that as well, shentino. :)
Having good documentation, and perhaps good tools to help a broken case, is the next best thing.

The documentation is there but not enough. More advance stuff would be nice, maybe some simple code snippets. Maybe a full function database, I would like that allot :D.

Most of all the one thing I dislike about the online manual is the layout. I think the manual would benefit more if it was more of a wiki style manual allowing contributions from the whole SMF community. The doc writers should have a final say though and should be the moderation/proofing team, still able to make contributions but able to control the whole documentation project. I think it would be good idea to pilot this and see how it goes, there is mediawiki which will be a quick setup.  ;)