new appreciation for SMF after trying vBulletin

Started by permutations, July 12, 2005, 07:07:14 PM

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permutations

I'm lost in no-man's land. SMF doesn't have certain features that are crucial for my application. vBulletin does (and I bought it), but the design it so inferior to SMF I want to shriek. It's been a week, and I still can't get this thing to work properly.

I also have a new appreciation for Unknown, whose crankiness has sometimes rubbed me the wrong way. He may be cranky, but he knows what he's talking about. Trying to get tech support from a "customer support specialist" who doesn't know what a session cookie is... AUGH!!!! I shall go mad!

So here are the features that I ardently wish were in SMF so I wouldn't be forced to use vBulletin:

- Support for post moderation.
- Support for paid subscription management.
- Support for membership statistics (joining and leaving).

Oh puleeeeese add these?!?!

In the time I've wasted wrestling with vBulletin, I could have coded all this myself. I was halfway to adding paid subscription support when I bought vBulletin. And I'd adapted the Visual Warning Mod to give me post moderation, but unfortunately this doesn't work correctly in v1.1 and I was sick of all that coding.

The One

Quote from: permutations on July 12, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
- Support for post moderation.
I thought we had "moderators" for that.

Quote from: permutations on July 12, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
- Support for paid subscription management.
Hey wouldn't that mean you would have to pay SMF a royalty? plus if it was a paid board I would never even want to join it. All I would do is STFW for a better answer to my questions.

Quote from: permutations on July 12, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
- Support for membership statistics (joining and leaving).
You mean you want to know how many people join or leave?
Couldn't you take a count every week or so? or is it something else?
The problem is choice

permutations

Your response wasn't asking serious questions, but I'll give you serious answers anyway.

Quote from: The One, re Post ModerationI thought we had "moderators" for that.

I want a moderation queue so I can see the posts of new members (and other members, in special instances) before they are released to the board. My forum is a sensitive support forum, and I do this to protect members against flames and personal attacks. I do closely monitor the forum and if someone I've taken off moderation starts attacking someone I catch it fast, but it's better if it doesn't happen in the first place.

I adapted the Visual Warning Mod to create a moderation queue in SMF 1.0.5, but I read posts that the Visual Warning Mod doesn't work anymore with v1.1. That doesn't mean I couldn't get it to work - I haven't looked to see what is broken. I will today.

Today is my "experiments" day - I need to decide whether to code the features I need that are missing in SMF myself, or move over to vBulletin. There are so many nice features in SMF that vBulletin lacks that I'm hesitant to move over since there's no easy way to move back. "Unknown" posted that moderation would be in v1.2 - I'd feel very frustrated if a later version of SMF had the features I needed and I was stuck on vBulletin because there was no way to import back into SMF. I can't make any switch that will cause me to lose my member list and message base.

Quote from: The One, re Paid SubscriptionsHey wouldn't that mean you would have to pay SMF a royalty? plus if it was a paid board I would never even want to join it.

SMF has no prohibition now against charging for subscriptions. I could code it myself, and I very well may decide to do that. SMF has its own business model (and I very much like the open source business model - give away the code and charge for premium support). The open source business model makes no restrictions based on how the software is used.

As for whether you would want to join my forum... Don't you think that's a silly statement when you know absolutely nothing about this specific forum? This is a private forum, hidden from search engines, accessible only with permission, and providing professional support services around a specific topic. It was free until providing this service became an unpaid full-time job for me. My first thought when this became a problem was to close the forum, but my membership suggested I charge for my services instead. I like helping people, so I don't mind making this my full time job.

Quote from: The One, re Membership StatisticsYou mean you want to know how many people join or leave? Couldn't you take a count every week or so? or is it something else?

If I implement the paid subscription piece myself, it will be easy to also add reporting. I also like live notifications of when people subscribe or unsubscribe. A flurry of subscriptions tells me there are many new eyes, and I might post a message for new members. A flurry of unsubscriptions tells me something on the board is bothering people, and that's useful feedback, too.

Yonkey

Quote from: permutations on July 12, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
- Support for paid subscription management.
I'm not sure what percentage of SMF admins use their forum in conjunction with paid subscriptions, but given that the forum software itself is free, I don't see SMF adding this as a standard feature (instead someone may create it as a mod).

Quote from: permutations on July 12, 2005, 07:07:14 PM
- Support for membership statistics (joining and leaving).
What exactly do you mean by "leaving"?  When a user deletes their own account?  As for joining, you can already see statistics of the # of new members per day and per month. 

permutations

Quote from: Yonkey on July 13, 2005, 01:08:37 PM
I'm not sure what percentage of SMF admins use their forum in conjunction with paid subscriptions, but given that the forum software itself is free, I don't see SMF adding this as a standard feature (instead someone may create it as a mod).

That's okay - that's not the really big problem. I can write this myself fairly easily. The really big problem is the lack of a post moderation feature. That's hard to write myself. I hacked the Visual Warning mod to provide it, but this breaks in v1.1. (Might not be too hard to fix - I haven't looked yet.) I think "Unknown" said that post moderation would be added to v1.2.

Quote from: Yonkey on July 13, 2005, 01:08:37 PM
What exactly do you mean by "leaving"?  When a user deletes their own account?  As for joining, you can already see statistics of the # of new members per day and per month. 

Yes, this is what I meant - subscribing and unsubscribing. I don't see any membership statistics in v1.0.5. Maybe this was added to v1.1? I haven't upgraded because of the problem with the Visual Warning Mod. Maybe I'll install 1.1 somewhere else so I can take a look. I don't know what was changed.

Yonkey

Hmm, member statistics have existed since YaBB, so it should be in all SMF versions...  It's on the Board Index under [More Stats]. 

Here's the direct url for it on this forum: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=stats  :D

Grudge

A moderation queue is required IMHO. We couldn't get it in SMF 1.1 (I just ran out of steam :P ) but I'd really like to try and get it in the next major release - although that will be a long time away from now I'm afraid. The other two things I'm less convinced about - but at the very least they should hopefully be modded in the future.
I'm only a half geek really...

permutations

Quote from: Yonkey on July 13, 2005, 04:34:22 PM
Hmm, member statistics have existed since YaBB, so it should be in all SMF versions...  It's on the Board Index under [More Stats]. 

Here's the direct url for it on this forum: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=stats  :D

I had no idea this page was there. I couldn't see any links to statistics (still can't find a link to this page in the UI), and when I originally asked for this feature, "Unknown" posted back that he couldn't see why anyone would want such a thing. So I'm surprised it's there - happy, but surprised.

Is there a link to this somewhere in the interface? I just looked again, and the only "stats" link I can find is in the Profile area (wouldn't have thought to look there), and that doesn't have all the info that's on the stats page you gave me the link for.

Ben_S

It's at the bottom of the boardindex, [More Stats].
Liverpool FC Forum with 14 million+ posts.

permutations

Quote from: Grudge on July 13, 2005, 05:46:49 PM
A moderation queue is required IMHO. We couldn't get it in SMF 1.1 (I just ran out of steam :P ) but I'd really like to try and get it in the next major release - although that will be a long time away from now I'm afraid. The other two things I'm less convinced about - but at the very least they should hopefully be modded in the future.

This is the showstopper for me. I'm going to take a look now and see if I can get this to work in v1.1. It's hard because I'm not deeply familiar with how SMF is coded. If it looks like a big mess, I'll have to go with vBulletin.

There's no way to move back, is there? Does SMF have any import utilities so you can move over from different boards? When SMF 1.2 is released, I'll probably wish I was using it.

(Oh yes, there's [More Stats] at the bottom of the page - I missed it.)

Trekkie101

You can move back to SMF at any time from a huge range of software: http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=20.0

And I highly doubt 1.2 will change anything in the idea that converters will be available.

permutations

Yes, when I was looking around the site this morning I saw there were converters available. But probably I won't need to convert because I don't think I will have to switch to vBulletin after all.

vBulletin's paid subscription feature turned out to be so lame that I want to write my own, anyway. It has good moderation support (for posts as well as other items), but all I need is post moderation, and it looks like I'll be able to write this myself for SMF.

I had hacked Grudge's Visual Warning mod to do straight post moderation in SMF v1.0.x, but in a messy way. The Visual Warning mod broke in v1.1, and my mess was hard to maintain. But I'm looking at the code now and the Visual Warning mod is easy to fix for v1.1. After I do that, I'll create a post moderation mod as a nice package instead of a hacked mess. I'll submit both to the mod library.

jdougher

Permutation, would you mind detailing for me and the board the things you like about SMF that you find lacking in vBulletin? I'm trying to decide between these two packages myself, but obviously you've had more experience than I in using both. Thanks.

Quote from: permutations on July 14, 2005, 07:47:53 AM
Yes, when I was looking around the site this morning I saw there were converters available. But probably I won't need to convert because I don't think I will have to switch to vBulletin after all.

vBulletin's paid subscription feature turned out to be so lame that I want to write my own, anyway. It has good moderation support (for posts as well as other items), but all I need is post moderation, and it looks like I'll be able to write this myself for SMF.

I had hacked Grudge's Visual Warning mod to do straight post moderation in SMF v1.0.x, but in a messy way. The Visual Warning mod broke in v1.1, and my mess was hard to maintain. But I'm looking at the code now and the Visual Warning mod is easy to fix for v1.1. After I do that, I'll create a post moderation mod as a nice package instead of a hacked mess. I'll submit both to the mod library.


permutations

Quick reply - I'm under a time-crunch to get all this coding done...

There are fewer bugs in SMF (as predicted by the open source theory described in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/).

The SMF interface is vastly superior - especially in the key area of setting usergroup permissions. My usergroups typically share most settings and differ by just a couple. When I change my basic permission settings in SMF, I can make the changes in one group, modify the other groups to match this, and then go back in and change the one or two things that differ in that user group. In vBulletin, you can base a usergroup on another when you create it, but if you want to make any modifications it has to be setting-by-setting - you can't modify based on another usergroup or some other preset.

The vBulletin support is not as good - it's timely, but the quality can be so-so. None of the support people are programmers, and not even that technical. They could not give me answers at the level I needed. The support manager didn't even know what a session cookie was. With SMF, the developers are providing support - this is a HUGE advantage.

The bugs in vBulletin really plagued me - many more than in SMF - and the first response of the tech support staff - without even looking into it - is that you (the customer) must be doing something wrong. Drove me nuts.

That said, it has some nice features as well. But the overall design felt clunky to me. I much prefer SMF. Unless vBulletin has a feature that's crucial for your needs and that SMF doesn't have (and that you don't know how to add yourself), I'd say go with SMF.

You can test drive vBulletin on their Web site. They have a test area where you can try out the administration control panel, etc.


jdougher

I had a very strange and unpleasant experience with a marketing manager at vbulletin. I'm with the press, among other things, and I requested a review copy to help me get up to speed on this bb software in order to write an article about it. Was given a six-month license. I tried the software out, and it seemed good. Checked the support page, and there was a link provided for me to upgrade the thing to a full version at a reduced price. So I went ahead and clicked the link and bought the thing, thinking I'd go ahead and implement it on a site I'm planning. Paid $200 for the license plus the branding-free option. Regular price would have been $280 or something. I figured they gave me this link in order to turn a review copy into a sale.

Guess what? The manager got PO'd at me that I had used the link. Claimed that I had "taken advantage" of them to get a cheap copy of their software. I was floored. I told the guy to refund my money and deactivate my license at once. No way could I write about that product, as I sensed some bad karma at the place, and I want to make sure any software I recommend to my readers is worth their while.
So that's why I'm here, and so far this all worked out for the best, as these things often do. Really weird: if I had recommended vbulletin, thousands of people around the world would have seen that article and some would no doubt have bought it. Go figger.

permutations

#15
Wow! I'm a press person, too - have been for many years now. That is an amazing story - stunningly dumb behavior... I'm at a loss for words. What kind of moron would nickel and dime a reviewer?!?! Companies send me free software all the time - unsolicited. In fact, I've bought software, and then when the company found out about my magazine affiliation, refunded my money without my asking.

I didn't tell vBulletin I was a computer journalist, but what they did to you doesn't surprise me. I encountered some stunning stupidity over there. I'm speechless.  ???

The One

OT:
Quote from: permutations on July 13, 2005, 12:40:19 PM
As for whether you would want to join my forum... Don't you think that's a silly statement when you know absolutely nothing about this specific forum?
Ah! Silly me Oh Wise one.
The problem is choice

jdougher

I'd never seen anything like it in all my years of doing this -- and I told the guy as much. Stunningly stupid is right. Companies regularly give me software and hardware -- no strings attached, of course. In the end he tried to chalk the issue up to miscommunication, but I'm a communicator by profession, and I can tell you his message came across loud and clear. The words I quoted were, indeed, a quotation. In any case, in my preliminary investigation of this type of software, I ran across comments on the web re vbulletin's aggressiveness in combatting piracy. I have nothing against this, but I sense now there's a general climate at the place that I don't believe I want my readers walking into.

Quote from: permutations on July 15, 2005, 12:21:39 AM
Wow! I'm a press person, too - have been for many years now. That is an amazing story - stunningly dumb behavior... I'm at a loss for words. What kind of moron would nickel and dime a reviewer?!?! Companies send me free software all the time - unsolicited. In fact, I've bought software, and then when the company found out about my magazine affiliation, refunded my money without my asking.

I didn't tell vBulletin I was a computer journalist, but what they did to you doesn't surprise me. I encountered some stunning stupidity over there. I'm speechless.  ???

permutations

Quote from: jdougherIn any case, in my preliminary investigation of this type of software, I ran across comments on the web re vbulletin's aggressiveness in combatting piracy. I have nothing against this, but I sense now there's a general climate at the place that I don't believe I want my readers walking into.

vBulletin is very concerned about piracy - they have a whole department set up to track it - but apparently they're not completely paranoid about it. They just refunded my money, quickly and graciously. They tried to help me resolve the problems I had with the software, and accepted my decision to stick with SMF and not switch to vBulletin.

Quote from: jdougherI'd never seen anything like it in all my years of doing this -- and I told the guy as much. Stunningly stupid is right. Companies regularly give me software and hardware -- no strings attached, of course. In the end he tried to chalk the issue up to miscommunication, but I'm a communicator by profession, and I can tell you his message came across loud and clear. The words I quoted were, indeed, a quotation.

If I were the president of Jelsoft (publisher of vBulletin), I'd fire that marketing manager. What kind of "marketing manager" doesn't understand that the financial impact of a review far surpasses the price of the product? Not only that, he embarrassed you, and permanently damaged the company's relationship with a member of the press.

What really puzzles me, though, is why vBulletin has the reputation for quality that it has. I really felt it wasn't that good. It has a lot of features, but the design isn't well thought out. SMF is way better.

jdougher

In looking back over the thread, I see now that the guy was a "customer support manager." He says things like:

---------

I don't understand what you are doing. You were given a 'review' license.... This was not intended for you to use the upgrade offer to upgrade to an owned license at a reduced rate. Please explain.

Please explain the status of this. Again we provided you a fuilly functioning preview copy of vBulletin as per your request. Honestly I was a bit taken aback when I saw that you turned this into a way to get a cheap owned license. That looks like you too advantage of us.

----------

What happened, actually, as I said, was that when I checked the license page, to which I was directed, there were in plain sight upgrade links that allowed me to puchase the product as I did. How was I to know that, according to this guy, I wasn't supposed to actuallly use those links?

Amazing. He was actually accusing me of some kind of premeditated plan to procure software on the cheap, even though he knew of my reputation and affiliation.

I was floored and so angry at one point that I was shaking. Nevertheless, I kept my professionalism about me and just informed him that I would like a refund. End of relationship. In the press we need to try to remain objective, and probably any article I write about this category would have to include mention of vbulletin.

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