Community Contributions

Started by hadesflames, June 04, 2011, 10:09:21 PM

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hadesflames

This is most likely going to be ignored, or simply given a no, but if I don't try, I'll never know. As far as I'm aware, SMF is for the most part an open source project. However, it lacks one of the things that gives open source much of it's huge success. That being, community contributions. When I say that, I mean that the only people that really contribute any code to SMF's core are the developers. Naturally, I understand that just tossing SVN access, and SVN write access to boot, is out of the question. Fine, however, the bug tracker is already available to the public. So why not allow the community (those who are capable, and wish to do so) the ability to post their proposed fixes to certain bugs?

I don't mean just have the post a topic about it or anything like that, I mean really have some means to do so. Encourage the community to help the core developers where and if they can. One thing I would at least try to do is increase the man power of the cust team to help review code submissions that can potentially be thrown into SVN to help resolve bugs. I know this might put more of a back log on the mods, but honestly what good is a huge mod database, if there's no complete product to use them with? As always, I'm more than willing to help for the sake of the community, if you will take it.

Adish - (F.L.A.M.E.R)

Most of the bugs mentioned within the bug tracker have a topic linked to it. Why not just discuss there instead of the bug tracker?

So, topics for everyone, mantis for teamies and friends to discuss the code proposed and SVN for devs. Things are quite nicely organized in my opinion.

Norv

Thank you for your proposal.

I'm quite certain we will change some things - a while after 2.0 release. Not everything, as Flameboy mentions, some may stay, but yes, I completely agree that for a long time, SMF development is still very much "cut" from the community. There is work being planned for a few things that may change that. I will be back on this.

On a related note, I appreciate other ideas and feedback on this. What can we do for the community to be more in touch with developers and/or contribute to SMF?
To-do lists are for deferral. The more things you write down the later they're done... until you have 100s of lists of things you don't do.

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Also known as Norv on D* | Norv N. on G+ | Norv on Github

hadesflames

#3
Quote from: Norv on June 04, 2011, 10:50:10 PM
Thank you for your proposal.

I'm quite certain we will change some things - a while after 2.0 release. Not everything, as Flameboy mentions, some may stay, but yes, I completely agree that for a long time, SMF development is still very much "cut" from the community. There is work being planned for a few things that may change that. I will be back on this.

On a related note, I appreciate other ideas and feedback on this. What can we do for the community to be more in touch with developers and/or contribute to SMF?

I'm glad you agree =] It's nice to know that things will be heading in the right direction shortly.

One thing that comes to mind is that there's no topic asking the community to help the devs. For example, there's a topic for translators, and I know that there are a ton of translators. I myself still have translator access if I'm not mistaken. There's a lot of incentive to post support or make mods or themes. For example, MOTM, TOTM and SHOTM. It doesn't really sound like something that great or original, but how about something similar to people how contribute code to help the core? On top of that, a topic to encourage people to do so. Beta testers, AFAIK, aren't truly team members, yet they seem to be as exclusive as team members, so perhaps that could be opened up to be something easier to obtain. Needless to say, not any jack ass should be able to say give me a beta tester badge and just get it, but perhaps opening up applications might not be so bad?

I seem to recall the consultant dev position that Nao had. I'm not going to go into how that turned out, it's behind us and I doubt any of us care anymore. But it's not a bad idea in and of itself. If you guys rework how you go about it, it could also be a huge success.

live627

Beta Tester of the Month
Code Contributer of the Month

Something like those would help  keep those departments alive, and give incentive, drama aside.

Masterd


Kindred

???


While there may not be any specific topic on it...     what is stopping users from posting code updates related to their reported bugs?   Several have done so, and we may have used their update.

I guess I don't understand the point of this thread... except a request to have some sort of "We want your help" thread. ???
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Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Arantor

No, the point is to stop being so hardline about community help - get more people involved as beta testers and those that provide fixes, get them up in the consulting dev bracket. You have a vast community here with massive amounts of skill and yet the net rate of progress is based on the free time of three people.

Why do you think, perhaps, that I stopped submitting bug reports to you guys? I have notes on quite a number of SMF bugs that aren't even in the tracker but as demonstrated so admirably lately, it's not even worth the effort of reporting them.

A while ago when I was still on the team, I was trying to offer suggestions, most of which were ignored. Not even rebuffed, but simply ignored. Three months after I left the team, after the crap had hit the fan, I offered again to help, and that was ignored too as far as I was aware at the time. Under a truly community-minded project, that sort of thing would only happen if my skills are far enough out of whack to be useful, and without being funny I don't think that's the case.

Kindred

Arantor, once again, we seem to have very different perceptions of reality.
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Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

hadesflames

#9
Quote from: Kindred on June 05, 2011, 11:37:21 AM
Arantor, once again, we seem to have very different perceptions of reality.

Considering even Norv agreed with us, for the most part, I'm forced to ask exactly what reality are you living in? =/

NanoSector

Quote from: Kindred on June 05, 2011, 11:37:21 AM
Arantor, once again, we seem to have very different perceptions of reality.
Arantor is pretty much right, y'know...

You have a BIG community here, each member has their own skills -- Why not make use of those members? It will only make SMF development go faster...
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"I've heard from a reliable source that the Answer is 42. But, still no word on what the question is."

live627

Quote from: Kindred on June 05, 2011, 11:37:21 AM
Arantor, once again, we seem to have very different perceptions of reality.
Is that so? Well then, I have a question for you: How  would you get the community more involved with SMF core development?

Norv

#12
Sorry I don't have much time. Allow me to mention though, as I feel this topic needs it... Constructive proposals for SMF development contributions and relation to the community are truly helpful, and in fact several of hades and live's proposals touch some things I'll be happy to give details on what we already work on and plan.
However, personal grudges, ego-trips and drama are a completely different thing. They do not help the discussion, and will likely turn it into some sort of drama that will completely hinder the constructive discussion. It seems to do so already. I'm sorry to see this.

I appreciate if we can keep this particular topic without the second. There are valuable ideas here that personally, I intend to discuss further, here or elsewhere, I admit I'd find it too bad if we cannot discuss them reasonably. I'm sure we can keep the discussion friendly and drama-free if we are all committed to do so. Thank you.
To-do lists are for deferral. The more things you write down the later they're done... until you have 100s of lists of things you don't do.

File a security report | Developers' Blog | Bug Tracker


Also known as Norv on D* | Norv N. on G+ | Norv on Github

Arantor

I wasn't trying to bring drama to this one, I was trying to illustrate the very points hadesflames was talking about from my own experience, I figured that would - you know - help encourage something to change for the better, but if I can't even bring my experience to it without being accused of drama...

hadesflames

Mainly, we need less of "It's good how it is now, we need no change."

In any case, what are your thoughts on what's been said so far (in regards to the constructive discussion)

Kindred

I think you missed my point (and I know Arantor did)

1- I said that we currently have a method which allows a user to submit code fixes. (which is what the OP asked for).
2- I never said "It's all good now, no change". There are always ways to improve (which is what Norv was saying)
3- We've all acknowledged that we have a large community (that was not original to Arantor). And we're always happy to see contributions from the community.

Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Arantor

No, I think you missed the point.

The fact is that while you might be happy to see contributions from the community, there is still very much a glass wall between the community's contributions to the ecosystem, and the community contributing to SMF itself, i.e. to the core software, what's in SVN trunk.

1. Yes you do, but it's not really used. The only code fixes that ever seem to be taken seriously are the ones posted on Mantis, which is only open to people with team or beta tester badges. Thus as I said, open up the criteria for such, and get more people able to contribute code.

2. Yes, and what I was saying is that you may change the tools available, you still have to accept patches in through the door, which is where the problem comes in.

3. Yes, you are, because it improves your reputation. Except community contributions in your mind are not the same as contributions we're talking about - those to SMF's trunk, not to the ecosystem. Though, given how wonderful a job your reviewing team are doing lately (I should not be able to find schoolboy errors in mods that go through the Customizer Team, one that potentially made dozens of queries per page, and one that allows for arbitrary iframe injection), I do have to wonder how seriously that commitment to the community and to seeing contributions really is taken.

IchBin™

Quote from: Once Upon A Star on June 05, 2011, 08:30:10 PM
Though, given how wonderful a job your reviewing team are doing lately (I should not be able to find schoolboy errors in mods that go through the Customizer Team, one that potentially made dozens of queries per page, and one that allows for arbitrary iframe injection), I do have to wonder how seriously that commitment to the community and to seeing contributions really is taken.

Thank you for single-handedly depleting the remaining motivation that I had left for the Customize Team. We are not perfect, and have never claimed to be. We try our hardest to catch all the things that could go possibly wrong. Yet you accuse us of having no commitment to the community? What did I or anyone on the customize team do to you lately that deserved this treatment?

Your relentless attacks at anything SMF Team related are tiresome. I don't think I have ever had any disrespectful words with you. But you seem to constantly want some type of payback for your hurt feelings over past grievances, and take it out anywhere you please. But you do it under the guise "I was talking about from my own experience, I figured that would - you know - help encourage something to change for the better". The beaten and battered wife really knows you love her... Do you really think your helping?

Team Lead elections are coming up, and I haven't accepted my nomination yet. You sealed my decision at this point. I can do much more customization stuff without having to put up with people claiming the high road while they sit around and watch the mod approvals in hopes that they can catch the team leaving something in the mod ON PURPOSE! Seriously, get over yourself and the past Arantor! It's great that you report the problems you see. But the matter and attitude you do it in, does not help anyone but you. Even then I question that.
IchBin™        TinyPortal

live627

I think we have two new enemies there.

Arantor

QuoteYet you accuse us of having no commitment to the community? What did I or anyone on the customize team do to you lately that deserved this treatment?

It's really simple. If you take a badge, you are accepting a responsibility. In your case, that is a responsibility to the users of SMF mods, because by being approved by the team, there is the understanding that the mods are safe, reliable, tested, etc. If you accept that responsibility, you should be fulfilling it, if not, don't hold the badge. When I left the team, I couldn't fulfil that responsibility to the community any longer, so I quit, on my terms.

I have shown you two mods that do not fit these criteria, and the thing is, I shouldn't be able to find them. Mods with small bugs, yes, that happens. Hell, I let through mods that had bugs in, I let through mods that didn't fit the strict criteria. But ones with massive performance concerns and potential security issues, I shouldn't be able to find, simple as that: that's where the responsibility is failing, by letting through such things.

If you take the Customizer badge, you are committing to the responsibility that the mods people download from this site are safe, secure and not going to damage their site. I would say that commitment is questioned. And honestly, if you're in a position of responsibility, you should be held accountable to that responsibility by the people who put faith in you to meet that commitment.

QuoteBut the matter and attitude you do it in, does not help anyone but you. Even then I question that.

I don't do it to help. I do it because I believe in something. I believe that a team with people parading round with badges, holding titles, and all the perceived wisdom and kudos that goes with it, whilst not fulfilling the responsibilities due to that rank, is not really a particularly great team.

Just think, things could have been different - I lost the vote for lead Customizer by one vote. Aren't you so glad now that that's the case? Because I'd really be taking people to task, even in a volunteer organisation, if you take responsibility you should be prepared to commit to actually doing it. And that's what's happening here - you took the responsibility of leading the team, and that means you must be prepared to accept when the competence and/or commitment of your team is questioned.

Instead of complaining about my attitude, why not do something about it? Instead of just whining that I killed your motivation, well, you can't have had particularly strong motivation in the first place. My comments here shouldn't have merely upset you, they should have enraged you, motivated you to actually take the situation by the scruff of the neck and do something about it. Leaders don't whine, they lead, they get on with it and start finding solutions.

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