I don't consider you a "toy" project. I do consider wedge to be a kick-off project that has no large community or need for a lrage amount of community support.
and "real product" means that, yes, you have an alpha... but it was a limited release to a select few. You do not have widespread distribution and you do not have a need to support thousands of people using your software.
It doesn't change the fact it's still a real product. Just because it's not in public release doesn't change that fact.
You DO NOT try to "consider everyone else" (you, being devs in general, not you specifically).
Based on what you have said, you (and this is the direct you)actually believe that the team members should have **LESS** input than the community.
Oh you're good at wilfully misinterpreting, aren't you?
That isn't what I said. I believe the team should have an equal footing to the community. Not more, not less. They're part of the community. They're not this separate entity from it, unlike the current SMF model.
We're all part of this 'community'. What makes your say any more important than a newly registered member?
The only thing that gives *me* any say about it is when I get down and chip away at the rock face. Until that happens, I have no more say than anyone else. That's what being a member of the community means.
As for why devs should accept input from team members? Well maybe because we're all on the same team and all have invested ALOT into SMF. With the exception of you... I would guess that I have probably put as much time into providing support and other "background" stuff for SMF as any developer has spent on coding, in recent years (unknown and the other early developers are excluded in that comparison). You're right... I didn't code anything.
So you've invested a lot of time. That's hugely commendable. But does it give you the right to claim you have more say than someone who just started using the software?
Does it have an adverse effect where you're so used to it that you'll discourage change of any fashion because it's worked well thus far and so presumably doesn't need change?
Supporting a project is admirable, hugely so, and it's important - and don't let me encourage thoughts to the contrary. However, why is someone who has made a huge investment of time and energy more important to the project than someone who hasn't (yet, but might do so)?
More importantly, why is their opinion more significant?
That's why I don't tell the developers how to code. However, even if the team does not actually put code in, the devs should accept input form them, since we're all a team and the others are the ones who have to support and document what the devs code.
Be careful with your words. You might not have told them how to code something. But you may have had an influence with how it should function - which isn't always in code terms. Similarly, you might have set out that things need to be done (or not done), which is influencing what is done if not how it is done.
Some of this is for the greater good, and yes, developers will often have to do things that are sucky to get the good stuff done. That's the nature of that particular beast. However, I have seen cases of ideas being shot down because they are not necessarily in line with the 'original vision' of SMF.
For example, a portal. I really can see the necessity of a portal becoming a core feature in the next few years, if not sooner. The world - and the web - is changing. Forums are harder to start running these days. But SMF is 'just a forum'. All the time it is just a forum, it's going to sink. There will be a change in the next few years too away from social networking as it stands, and forums might benefit, but those best placed to do so are the ones that offer more than just forum functionality. Even IPS is making IP.Board a *non core feature* going forward. Yup, that's right, IPB won't have a forum by default, it will be an add-on to the core.
It's like calling things unconstitutional because of some perceived bias, but society is not the same society it was 200 years ago.
This is where you (and the others) seem to have a falling down stroke and blind-spot. input != command.
Except I, and the others, are the ones who are on the receiving end of it. We're the ones at the rock face. And ultimately if you want us to build things, it's going to be on our terms. Not adhering to that caveat is what is costing SMF so dearly.
We build things in a certain way. We should be involving the community in discussion of features. But end of the day we're the ones building it. You can't force us to accept input. If we don't want your input, that's our call, not yours to make.
For example, say there's a security issue. Are we (developers) going to involve you (non developers) in discussion of how that security feature should be resolved? Unless it impacts on other things, the answer should be no. This same practice should really hold true for everything else.
Take today. I just implemented a new feature in Wedge to avoid language edits touching the language files. Did I consult anyone about it? Did I ask for input? Yes - on a minor side issue, which in hindsight wasn't even an issue. I assessed the needs, and I came up with a solution that addresses the needs I perceive - and I don't need anyone else telling me what is required, nor do I need anyone telling me that it isn't necessary because what is there is 'good enough'. (Clearly it isn't, otherwise I wouldn't have thought to do what I did.)
But I didn't open it up to the community for discussion for the most part. It didn't warrant it. I certainly didn't invite technical discussion on implementation (though I have raised one issue with Nao for his take because it impacts something else he's working on)... and I'm fine with that. I relied on my judgement.
If you feel you have to coerce someone into taking input, you're probably doing it wrong. (And I'm well aware that holds true for me too.)
You can definitely get a lot done that way... until suddenly you make a full release and are more busy providing support than you are coding. (much of the time that you spent coding wedge, you also spent AWAY from here... not a criticism, just an observation)
What does that have to do with anything? It just meant I changed how I decided to use my free time. I'm not just some resource that can be exploited. Nor are any other volunteer developers.
I would also note that I remain here, offering support, because it serves my needs to do so. The fact it also serves SMF's needs is a side matter.
I'm still around but every time I open my mouth, everyone else puts on the "oh no, her again... more drama" chip before actually listen to my words.
I try to listen to your words before I come to a decision about how to reply. I do think I don't communicate myself properly sometimes.
Besides, all the things said here has already been told elsewhere, it is so damn easy to attract new devs or at least show signs of movement... how many time has passed since the license change and 90% of the PHP community out there still doesn't know that SMF is now a truly open source software... unbelievable...
It has been 20 months since the licence change. Most of the wider community doesn't care anyway. SMF is considered very much a second class citizen in even in the forum world, licence changes notwithstanding.
Do I still care, yes I do.
There are a lot of people who care. My comment, somewhat flippant, was more that I feel like I'm the only one outwards trying to fight this battle because everyone else (whether they care or not) has accepted defeat and put it behind them.
Does it hurt to see absolutely no signs of movement here? yes it does. The only "changes" I saw so far is Joshua been a dev now and the "open source" title next to the "Simple Machines Forum - Free" text in the <title> HTML tag. both of them are just cosmetic changes since Joshua has always been involved with development even though he only pops out from time to time.
I won't even get into some of the comments I could make.
As a plain mortal with no team access, I have no idea what are the plans for future SMF development.
Bingo!
I have plans to take a look and re-factor the dump database feature but how am I suppose to start with it if I have absolutely no idea on whats next after 2.1?
How do you and I know that 2.1 won't yet include a major change that affects what you're doing?
I still has the (now vague) idea on refactoring the modsite here but how can I even suggest things when the team just sits there on their shell just waiting for stuff to happen?
There is an interesting analogy to be made there. It is, then, an exercise for the reader.
There are many using SMF, and will continue to do so, so that means it's up to you all to get together and move forward
I do not ever see that happening. All of the major contributors have fled to other projects.
