Multilingual ...?! Mehrsprachig?! Posible multilingüe? Είναι πολύγλωσσο δυνατόν;

Started by sangham.net, February 18, 2013, 08:04:39 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Arantor

QuoteDear Kindred, as said, it does not make sense for a forum where is no wish to interact with people of different languages. In regard of the moderators, they would work side by side and not just in their borders.

This is the fundamental problem. You simply cannot rely on machine translation to be accurate, and it is all too easy - even common - for people to misunderstand when such things are in use, even to the point of causing offence when none is intended.

QuoteI am aware of a different issue, that might be not so conscious. English native persons are not that much interested in such things, as others usually mostly speak a little English, but thought of Chinese language increase that could be a urgent issue soon.

It only really works if someone speaks both languages to a modest degree, simple as that.

QuoteNot to speak that I think that there is no forum software which serves with such a tool.

Of course there isn't. Aside from the technical objections (like the performance hammering aspect), there are sociological ones. How can I rely on a machine translation for accuracy? I can't.

Given how prone even native speakers are to misunderstand (as demonstrated multiple times here today between two native English speakers, though one is British, one is American), encouraging cross language communication in the same space is not the best idea.

Quoteof course I have no detail understanding of such issues. But from my understanding it would be somehow a side tool and does not need to go into the general structure. I guess one even would not need to be deeper integrated in the main database, but could have as side store. (a naive thought)

Either way creates a non trivial performance cost to be considered.

QuoteYes of course, but thought of having same topics and some problems and some issues in many languages in sub forums on a "multilingual" (actually just subforums) forum, I guess at the end it will be smaller if such a use is possible. People from different languages would work closer with each others. Nobody here has an idea of what's going on in the Spanish forum, maybe 3 Topics of the same issue at the same time and nobody would merge them.

It would work mostly the same if it were all in one board, actually. People that don't speak one language would have no real understanding of what the other posts say unless they're translated and unless you have a huge team of people, this just isn't going to happen in any practical way.

QuoteJust ideas, maybe useful. Manageable is all, just needs the desire to do it and sometimes some helping hands. As it seems is the community here famous for it.[/quot]e

It's not manageable for something that is a core feature in future SMF versions. It might be manageable on a single site with dedicated people.

Even here finding enough people to translate SMF itself in to different languages is hard - and SMF is smaller than an entire board's worth of posts.

sangham.net

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
QuoteDear Kindred, as said, it does not make sense for a forum where is no wish to interact with people of different languages. In regard of the moderators, they would work side by side and not just in their borders.

This is the fundamental problem. You simply cannot rely on machine translation to be accurate, and it is all too easy - even common - for people to misunderstand when such things are in use, even to the point of causing offence when none is intended.
Dear Arantor, you are right, its not possible to relay on machines only, so (if) they should be only the first level. You would maybe have a first transplantation, which is visible as "caution, just machine translated". The causes of offenses are endless and it's lesser a question of language as a matter of assuming. On the other hand, if you have two languages, it would minimize assuming maybe, as you would have two references. 

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
QuoteI am aware of a different issue, that might be not so conscious. English native persons are not that much interested in such things, as others usually mostly speak a little English, but thought of Chinese language increase that could be a urgent issue soon.

It only really works if someone speaks both languages to a modest degree, simple as that.
Yes of course, it would be no win if people would generally not interested in gaining more understanding of a secound language.

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
QuoteNot to speak that I think that there is no forum software which serves with such a tool.

Of course there isn't. Aside from the technical objections (like the performance hammering aspect), there are sociological ones. How can I rely on a machine translation for accuracy? I can't.
As told and seen, it (the sociological) is all also a matter on a one language board. A second column would be even a good moderating tool, people need translations even in their native language, to not misunderstood.


Its a tool for those who what to broaden there understanding and to bybass the problem of languages if the forum has more aspects as just socializing and fun sharing.

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
Quoteof course I have no detail understanding of such issues. But from my understanding it would be somehow a side tool and does not need to go into the general structure. I guess one even would not need to be deeper integrated in the main database, but could have as side store. (a naive thought)

Either way creates a non trivial performance cost to be considered.
Taken the community here for example, I am sure that would minimize all costs and work over all very fast and effective. Specially here on board for example it would be amazing.

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
QuoteYes of course, but thought of having same topics and some problems and some issues in many languages in sub forums on a "multilingual" (actually just subforums) forum, I guess at the end it will be smaller if such a use is possible. People from different languages would work closer with each others. Nobody here has an idea of what's going on in the Spanish forum, maybe 3 Topics of the same issue at the same time and nobody would merge them.

It would work mostly the same if it were all in one board, actually. People that don't speak one language would have no real understanding of what the other posts say unless they're translated and unless you have a huge team of people, this just isn't going to happen in any practical way.
I guess that is just a matter which could be solved with membership or similar like ignoring. One could add a second language or not. The stream would run, and there would be more cross flow like now and lesser active transferring, it would run side by side.
Especial if you develop something together, cross lingual, you could stay on topic in many languages. It might be that their are discussions in the same stream, you would not see as long as you do not turn on a different language, somebody able to speak two would connect them immediately.

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PM
QuoteJust ideas, maybe useful. Manageable is all, just needs the desire to do it and sometimes some helping hands. As it seems is the community here famous for it.

It's not manageable for something that is a core feature in future SMF versions. It might be manageable on a single site with dedicated people.
Yes, maybe here on this board. There would be the best to start and here is the place where many are interested on cross information. I guess SMF started exactly in a surrounding of dedicated people how wanted to make something different.

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 03:24:52 PMEven here finding enough people to translate SMF itself in to different languages is hard - and SMF is smaller than an entire board's worth of posts.
Maybe a good tool to manage such was missing, even if you start a topic, you would have automatically a good amount of sorted translations soon. You could even use desire to know it, as a force to grow it.

Thanks a lot for your care and will to give inputs and hints!

Arantor

QuoteOn the other hand, if you have two languages, it would minimize assuming maybe, as you would have two references. 

This all still assumes that humans are going to translate it. For general use, it isn't going to happen. For a one-off site, it might, but is not likely.

I would note that two sources of translation - even machine translation - is no guarantee of anything.

QuoteAs told and seen, it (the sociological) is all also a matter on a one language board. A second column would be even a good moderating tool, people need translations even in their native language, to not misunderstood.

I do not see how it is an effective moderation tool. If someone is not reasonably proficient in that language, they can't possibly moderate effectively.

If you then involve human translation, you have to trust the human translator 1) is translating it accurately without influencing it, 2) isn't adding their own spin to it and 3) doesn't miss any edits that come along later on.

QuoteTaken the community here for example, I am sure that would minimize all costs and work over all very fast and effective. Specially here on board for example it would be amazing.

Or not. It certainly wouldn't minimise the hosting costs, it would raise them up as far more computation power would be required. FAR more.

As for minimising work, that's unlikely. The English content vastly dwarfs most of the other languages here.

But then multiplying the gigabytes of data by the dozens of languages supported by SMF would make it enormous and unwieldy in any fashion. There are almost 3,300,000 posts here, and even if we say conservatively 50 languages, that would produce 165 million posts, which is three times larger than even the *largest* SMF forum to date.

Even if we cut it back to the publicly visible matters, and being generous, we'll assume that amounts to 300,000 posts we're cutting out (and it isn't that high), that's still 3 million posts = 150 million posts to be stored on the system and managed. It would at least double the server cost here. And I'm being conservative on all counts.

QuoteI guess that is just a matter which could be solved with membership or similar like ignoring. One could add a second language or not. The stream would run, and there would be more cross flow like now and lesser active transferring, it would run side by side.

No, it couldn't, not really. It would very quickly get out of hand.

QuoteYes, maybe here on this board. There would be the best to start and here is the place where many are interested on cross information. I guess SMF started exactly in a surrounding of dedicated people how wanted to make something different.

Or not.

QuoteMaybe a good tool to manage such was missing, even if you start a topic, you would have automatically a good amount of sorted translations soon. You could even use desire to know it, as a force to grow it.

No, there are very good tools for managing this for SMF's own software translations, which still take weeks to perform, and SMF's internal content is much smaller than a typical forum's content.


I get the impression you're not entirely understanding what I'm saying.

sangham.net

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 09:49:04 PM
QuoteOn the other hand, if you have two languages, it would minimize assuming maybe, as you would have two references. 

This all still assumes that humans are going to translate it. For general use, it isn't going to happen. For a one-off site, it might, but is not likely.
Dear Arantor,
There are always helpers. And we know that there are people who do it, otherwise SMF would not have reached so much countries in that way. Of course it will be not general. Like now, and it works. Maybe it could work much better as helpers are going to be lesser and lesser in our days.

QuoteI would note that two sources of translation - even machine translation - is no guarantee of anything.
Of course, but that is even a matter if there is just a single language. Coherence needs the will for attention, which is not normal if people just search for what they like to eat in this very moment. So a general concentration and investigation problem. But that is below all issuse of interacting and not so related to the point here, I guess. Don't forget, we have no practical references but 1001 assumings how it could be or how people would react or use it.

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 09:49:04 PM
QuoteAs told and seen, it (the sociological) is all also a matter on a one language board. A second column would be even a good moderating tool, people need translations even in their native language, to not misunderstood.

I do not see how it is an effective moderation tool. If someone is not reasonably proficient in that language, they can't possibly moderate effectively.

If you then involve human translation, you have to trust the human translator 1) is translating it accurately without influencing it, 2) isn't adding their own spin to it and 3) doesn't miss any edits that come along later on.
Yes, therefor the assigns as "Generated", "translated" (inkl. Name, Stars and strips for trust...), "approved" (by a hero). That is a base where you can assume the relevance of the translation interactive and aside of topic questions. Better as any google translation could ever work, as there is most just a single person, who wants to know a single thing and no improvement in the special case.

Quote from: Arantor on February 18, 2013, 09:49:04 PM
QuoteTaken the community here for example, I am sure that would minimize all costs and work over all very fast and effective. Specially here on board for example it would be amazing.

Or not. It certainly wouldn't minimise the hosting costs, it would raise them up as far more computation power would be required. FAR more.

As for minimising work, that's unlikely. The English content vastly dwarfs most of the other languages here.

But then multiplying the gigabytes of data by the dozens of languages supported by SMF would make it enormous and unwieldy in any fashion. There are almost 3,300,000 posts here, and even if we say conservatively 50 languages, that would produce 165 million posts, which is three times larger than even the *largest* SMF forum to date.

Even if we cut it back to the publicly visible matters, and being generous, we'll assume that amounts to 300,000 posts we're cutting out (and it isn't that high), that's still 3 million posts = 150 million posts to be stored on the system and managed. It would at least double the server cost here. And I'm being conservative on all counts.

I would tell you that it totaly goes the other direction in an amazing way. See this discussion here. It would be avaliable already within the whole community and we would have even solutions already. In fact many discussions are going on in the same way on many languages board and sometimes never find to another language. There is of course (as the main team is english speaking) an outfolw from english to other languages, but very less flow back. So it could be well that other streams have already developed such things and we would not know generally and would depend on an angle who shares it further.

So its a outflow prossess and as told in regard of Asian languages for example (who are generally not so much into sharing back) the english flow will dry out soon and less will come back.

Here I like to demonstarte a sample how it would work.



While you would not have struggles with other languages, if you have fade them out, you would even benefit form feedback of other users with other languages soon. I estimate that the time for solutions will be 10 times quicker and the over all produce of content will reduce gradually right from the beginning for a multi user board like her.

Not to speak about adminstration. You would not need 20 technical supporters (each for every language) and you would not need to find people with two professions at one time. The requirement of stuff for administration would be very quick smaller, a potential which could be put more into interacting in the shear of ones talent. So a perfect co-existing. Not to speak that moderators and Administartors would work more side on side and develop a  common way of process and behavior.

Quote
QuoteI guess that is just a matter which could be solved with membership or similar like ignoring. One could add a second language or not. The stream would run, and there would be more cross flow like now and lesser active transferring, it would run side by side.

No, it couldn't, not really. It would very quickly get out of hand.
It would be not out of the hand, even discussions in other language would be available, which is not the case now. Your ideas could flow away very fast and develop further unseen. Not in the case of parallel languages.

Quote
QuoteYes, maybe here on this board. There would be the best to start and here is the place where many are interested on cross information. I guess SMF started exactly in a surrounding of dedicated people how wanted to make something different.
Or not.
A journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step. Makes no sense to assume, wheter one would reach or not for many years. A vision in mind, and a resolve to do it, would be enought, next to the first step, a new and a new.

Quote
QuoteMaybe a good tool to manage such was missing, even if you start a topic, you would have automatically a good amount of sorted translations soon. You could even use desire to know it, as a force to grow it.
No, there are very good tools for managing this for SMF's own software translations, which still take weeks to perform, and SMF's internal content is much smaller than a typical forum's content.
I do not know all tools, but they are not meant for interaction I guess. They are just designed for better consuming, but not for giving an taking in a good relation I guess. That giving and taking things is what makes SMF possible and let it grow.


QuoteI get the impression you're not entirely understanding what I'm saying.
That is your biggest enemies, our assuming. It might be that I am not a good explainer, and of course I am no native english speaker and know my handicaps. So more than thanks for the patient you offer in my direction.

Maybe I could share some useful thoughts back as a gift of gratitude as you share your time to make me understand your point, and knowledge.

 

Arantor

The problem is that I'm looking at this from after several years of running a forum, not to mention far longer experience in writing software, and no matter how wonderful the discussion might be, the consequences on a technical standpoint alone far outweigh the returns I think you'd ever see, and to be honest, those are diminishing returns with every language you try to add to this.

It's been interesting, but I think I'm going to bow out. There's only so many ways I can try to explain the flaws I see in this based on my experiences of running sites (including participation in multi-language sites)

sangham.net

#25
I understand that totally Arantor and I am totally aware, that I am a newcomer. But such a situation has sometimes also the possibility to step over such things we call usually organisational blindness. Could! Not to say that it is so. Don't get me wrong on that point.
I deeply appreciate your patient in regard of a untrained, and unexperienced person like me. That is how I would regard my self in all that specific and technical issues.
Knowledge is something that is transferable, vision and insight is something one needs to see in one self. Only that it has a meaning and if it would not exist in you, you could not see it, even if I tell you.

I made a little graphic how it (the situation above) would look for the singe consumer according to his settings.




No, please not. It's a step by step journey. Thought of the possibility that we could activate the intention on many language board at the same time, it would be just a matter of short time to find co-workers and people of interest.
So here (in the multilingual frame) you could focus on your profession, no need to worry that you would not find co-workers (that is the mentality of this board as well, but very limited in regard of language interaction).

In regard of the data volume, it is thinkable that only translated or approved generated translations come into the database incl. the content. All the rest is generated from by the single user on his own side. Just the place it self exists.

Maybe these are some useful additional thoughts.

And here a maybe motivating side stanza:

The Bonds of Fellowship
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2013

"There are these four grounds for the bonds of fellowship.
Which four? Generosity, kind words,
beneficial help, consistency.
These are the four grounds for the bonds of fellowship."

Generosity, kind words, beneficial help,
& consistency in the face of events,
in line with what's appropriate
in each case, each case.

These bonds of fellowship [function]
in the world like the linchpin in a moving cart.
Now, if these bonds of fellowship were lacking,
a mother would not receive the honor
& respect owed by her child,
nor would a father receive what his child owes him.
But because the wise show regard for these bonds of fellowship,
they achieve greatness and are praised.



agridoc

Although I am concerned about multilingual since Feb. 2005 that I started using SMF and although I have been involved in Tiny Portal development with main task it's use with many languages simultaneously I must say that having a forum like SMF working with machine translation will lead to trouble.

SMF with UTF-8 can have navigation menus in many languages, also language specific boards (as in this site) can be created.

With a CMS system like Tiny Portal it is possible to have different blocks and articles versions for different languages, content must be in control by someone who knows the language used well enough.

Translation links can be offered, noticing that machine translation might be misleading.

Having a conversation that works through machine translation can easily lead to hilarious or even disastrous results. Misunderstandings are usual in forums even in native language.

Machine translation has improved tremendously, yet leaves much to be desired. It's good because one can understand a good percentage of content, however translation results are not at all granted.

So, SMF can be multilingual, adding a CMS with language options, like Tiny Portal,  can help and have specific language boards and categories.
  For Greek aeromodellers and our friends around the world  - Greek Button sets for SMF - Greeklish to Greek mod
Δeν αφιερώνω χρόνο για μηνύματα σε greeklish.

sangham.net

Thanks for your word, agridoc!

Yes of course, Tiny Portal serves a great opportunity for forum runners with will and potential for content for many languages. How ever, even that is just a dwelling side by side, but no real interacting possibility. So its merley nothing else as a save border between those of different languages, as far as I know it. Of course you can switch but at the end its all in the guarding hands of the runner.

This idea would be a try to go behind such individual leaded possibilities and would open a possibility to cross act on the topics. Of course machines are not the best and personally, I never use them. But for this idea they could be starter to enter also a different language stream. So it is open to the individual in all directions.

Machines themselves lead people just to "stultification" and laziness. They are just used to get the desired food and in this frame of intention it's naturally that trouble go along the way. (just test the quick translate tool, but I guess the intentions for translation works and serving others in this regard will be zero very soon)

Btw, much thanks for developing TP, really great tool!


agridoc

QuoteBtw, much thanks for developing TP, really great tool!

Not having myself the necessary code knowledge and/or time, I mostly contributed guiding and challenging Bloc and later IchBin™ as lead developers, as well as others, testing and pushing towards my multilingual (and some other) goals, sometimes to the limits of being embarrassing  ::). The credits for development go to coders.

Discusion however is quite different than menus, blocks and articles content presentation in different languages. I see no practical way for constant reliable operation.

For some special cases, if reliable translators exist, a Language Tag mod combined with Multilingual Board Name and Description, extended for Topics could help but I doubt if it worths the effort.
  For Greek aeromodellers and our friends around the world  - Greek Button sets for SMF - Greeklish to Greek mod
Δeν αφιερώνω χρόνο για μηνύματα σε greeklish.

MrPhil

OK, so we agree that machine translation of posts gives undesirable results, and this would throw a tremendous burden on a dedicated translator staff. How about The Third Way? Allow anyone to translate to other languages, Wiki style? If they make a bad translation, hopefully someone else can correct it, and eventually it settles down to something that everyone more or less agrees on. Of course you would need a way to report and ban certain members who demonstrate that they are poor translators or can't be trusted to do an honest job at it. And all member-translated posts would have a prominent notice reminding readers to take the content with a grain of salt. Would that work?

sangham.net

Dear MrPhil,
that was the idea actually, yes. It had just the "advertiser/starter" of the unproved machine translation.
A field of possible merits.


Irisado

I've translated before, both for my degree, and as part of my old job.  It's very time consuming, and not easy to do.  Regardless of whether it's possible in terms of the coding, I just can't see it working.

Consider how long it takes for a translator to translate SMF as it stands.  If the idea would be to have every single post translated into multiple languages, you would just end up burning out the translators.  The amount of work which would be involved just makes my head spin from thinking about it.

If you want a multiple language forum, it's better just to have separate sections for other languages, as is the case here.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

sangham.net

Well, Irisado, that should be a solution for the problem. There is no great harvest without wise work before. Struggling in the way it is now, or put some effort into new ways. That is the idea.

Have you inspected the graphics below a little and the actual reason behind. Its a minimizing of work, data and information problems and a increasing of accessibility and multitasking.

Do not misunderstand it, I don't think of all content should be translated, but the possibility of cross language use. Of course I think it could be as well a perfect environment for specific translation work.

As a translator, it would be good to beg the programming gurus to have such as a "deal" for quicker translation.

Thanks for your imput, Irisado

Kindred

Johnann,

you seem to be missing the point, I think.

There is no struggle, currently. The was we have it, with individual boards in separate languages work extremely well.

On this forum, for example, we have the main support in English and then the native language suppoort boards - each in their own language. This system works very well and has a low maintenance effort - people can ask/asnwer in English or in the native language.

What you are asking is essentially, to increase the maintenance effort of the native language support providers by a factor of 50 or more... (and, actually, some of them would be cut out, since they can and do provide excellent support in their native language, but don't understand English well enough to provide any actual translation)

There is no significant benefit for ALOT of effort.
Also, your concept on how peopl learn a new language is flawed. Most people do not learn a language by reading one next to the other.
Слaва
Украинi

Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

sangham.net

QuoteWhat you are asking is essentially, to increase the maintenance effort of the native language support providers by a factor of 50 or more...

Kindred, why do you think so. If one likes to stay in his native language, there would be no problem at all. And the special native language supporters would maybe not that much needed any more as there is direct connection the the main stream.

If we would search the hole board for for similar problem and similar issues but cut of each other by language I am sure that 50% of the topic in the special language sections would be unnecessary. Not to speak of the accessibility increasing for each separate language and the flow to the gurus here and there.

If I would not be able to read English I would not have that change to find so much infos, not sure what maybe Swedish might hide. Of course we are search engines spoiled and with it addicted to such ways, but - as the sample of wiki was brought - I guess there is no doubt in regard of the success in with such a concept.

There is much wast of time and energies if it is just a  treadmill flow "what comes up next will be done" of course many boards a working in this way but its rather of entertaining customers and lesser about a co-work community.

Just some thought of a fledgling, and to try to clarify the different perspectives.


Arantor

QuoteIf we would search the hole board for for similar problem and similar issues but cut of each other by language I am sure that 50% of the topic in the special language sections would be unnecessary.

Nah.

Given how many people ask the same questions over and over in English, it's not going to cut any of that out. But it *will* increase the server use and cost more to run - and that isn't going to change, no matter how much you might believe otherwise.

QuoteI guess there is no doubt in regard of the success in with such a concept.

For a limited set of reference material, sure. For general discussion? No.

Even if you don't get into the amount of effort required to *translate* things, you still have to consider *storing* the translations you do have. At a minimum that's 50 times EACH POST on this site.

sangham.net

I dont see that Arantor, as I had try to explain below before (posts with graphic)

Let me simulate the usual case now in a multilingual forum

There is a new issue or a news on one board:


7 topic, 85 posts, longer time span, no secure of contributing and fixing demands

( I am sure in realty it is much more extreme, ask someone how is well in two languages about the knowledge exchange when it is not organized by the main group of runners)
Over all it could be that many are never informed (if there is not a organized group - stuff) and there is actually no or very less packflow to the inventor for other boards (no feedback from outside = one way flow)
Every translation work would be very ineffective and needs to be ordered or requested. No real space for spontaneous serving and the fact that many things are made dopple twice or even more often and the workers do not know of each other. The one with good connections to the head will "win". I am sure there are many mod developments made but at the end no use, as there was another inventor already (just to speck for the case of this specific board)

In the case of the vision:



1 topic, 40 post, 100 placeholder, shorter time, back flow, secure that every language has the content and accessibility.

Every topic is available at least as a machine translation at the level of OP. So every language sector is able to jump on the topic from the beginning.
There will be naturally follow in all directions and all will be collected in one topic.
I would say that the overall time and the over all data need will reduce (for the same amount of solving) by 50% and the needed stuff in the same amount.
Of course you will have your specific supply system here, but it is all dependent on the language support stuff and all conections between the gurus will depend on them. While on the other side, the language stuff is always busy to contribute content to the needed place, not just simply translate useful things, maybe the starters and the solving things.

Not to speak of the time from the raising of an issue till the fixing or the "costumes" There is no need to translate all, that will depend on the demand of the language group.

Moderators could focus on simply topic merging and the gurus would have there possibility to focus more on there main work as well. No much need of multi talents (language, moderating, and developing at the same time)

I really don't intent to go into the structure of SMF board function here, I just take it as a maybe useful sample.


Arantor

QuoteI would say that the overall time and the over all data need will reduce (for the same amount of solving) by 50% and the needed stuff in the same amount.

FOR THE UMPEENTH TIME NO.

IT WILL NOT REDUCE THE DATA NEED. AT ALL. IT WILL INCREASE IT FAR BEYOND WOULD IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE. Even placeholders take up space.

sangham.net

QuoteEven placeholders take up space.
Hmmm... there is the question if they are actually needed. As long as there is just occasional generated content on demand, no need to have them.

But I guess I bother you already a little. Please pardon my hardheadedness.

It will grow if it is a good way.


Irisado

From a translation point of view Johann, I just don't think that you understand the problem.

Say you have an active live forum, with multiple threads per hour, with multiple replies.  Let's just say, for example, that you want those translated into all the languages of the EU member states.  That's over twenty different translations for each post, and translation work takes a long time, especially if specialist language is involved, which is highly likely in many forum environments.  How are you going to get these posts translated quickly enough to have a side by side screen option?

A forum is a living thing.  It doesn't just sit there dormant while translators go to work, it constantly has new posts being made (assuming it's active), so I just cannot see how this would work.

If you have different language sections, everyone posting in those sections is writing in the language required, thus saving a huge amount of translation work, and having multiple languages side by side isn't really going to be of interest to that many people.

As Kindred said earlier on, even those of us who have studied foreign languages didn't learn in this way, and as a Spanish tutor, I would never dream of teaching the language in this way, as it's a completely ineffective way of learning a foreign language, and tends to turn people off.

I hate to be so negative, but I just can't see what you're trying to achieve with this from a content point of view, and that's before we factor in the technical issues which others have raised above.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Advertisement: