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Were I given the keys to the kingdom...

Started by Arantor, September 22, 2013, 02:03:37 PM

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Suki

After reading the whole topic, this two things caught my attention:

- The customization site been revamped.

This has been on my radar since I was given the lead role and it will keep hunting me forever. I don't know whats the current state nor I really care that much about it to be honest. When I started to visit this site again I was hoping to see some news about it and be able to help and if I didn't see any then I will personally offer my self to help out, I suppose this is a good time to properly build such an offer.

- SMF 3.0 development.

Yes, I can start a futile fork that will lead me exactly no-where or I can help out the very own project that I always care about, reading this topic made me realize some things (I've been thinking about it for a while anyway), for instance, if Arantor is willing to step in, why can I? certainly the issues I had in the past pales in comparison with his :P  so yes, if anyone doesn't have anything to say about it, I'm offer my help too.
Disclaimer: unless otherwise stated, all my posts are personal and does not represent any views or opinions held by Simple Machines.

Making tough decisions, so you don't have to.

iaccountant

I'm a newby, know nothing about writing code ...well maybe some very fundamental bigger picture things from when "they" made me learn fortran, cobol and basic way back when...so I'm not qualified to even look at any corner of this kingdom :)

But I have been in business for many years, (yeah, I'm advancing into geezerhood) and served on my share of boards of directors.

Let me start by saying that "missing deadlines" is the norm for any volunteer driven organization, it's simply the nature of the beast. People are involved in their own lives and living, and what they do in their spare time or less is a pure labour of love...entirely driven by "character", and personal motivations.

It does cause some friction, as some get frustrated by the lack of progress, but nothing that well adjusted adults cannot get past.

So as a user and admirer of this product and this community, I just want to (and man I hoped this does not come across as condescending) congratulate all those driving this bus, and to Arantor, for how this thread developed into a constructive ....what appears to be....decision.

As a business person, let me add I think that beginning 3.0 while moving to some end point on 2.X makes a lot of sense. I presume 1.1.18 will also see some more minor tweaking should something be deemed necessary. Like K@, I'm a fan. It is stable, works well, and I know it. I operate a place on 2.05 as well, and though it takes a little getting used to, works just as well IMO and I suspect that as I learn it more, I will begin to appreciate it as much.

I know very little of what goes on under the hood...as they say, I know as much about coding as a cow knows of climbing trees (well it's a translated Dutch expression :) ), but I do know what GITHUB does. What I have heard ABOUT it is more negative than positive, and that does not only come from here.

So once again relying on business instincts, I have to think the problems folks have are real, and that an alternative deserves a good look. The logical time to adopt it would be starting with the development of 3.0, so that should be a decision made sooner than later.

I hope I've added a little business perspective from an objective user. I cannot really contribute any other way.

Except to also add my thank you's to everyone who makes this software and supports its user base. I hope you know you are appreciated very much.

To demonstrate this, from here I am going straight to the contribute area  to make my donation.

 

grafitus

Quote from: Arantor on September 22, 2013, 02:03:37 PMI'd start 3.0 development on top of 2.1 while 2.1 is going through late beta/RC stages and use 2.1's build as basis.
I hope this is joke. Semantic Versioning says that if you've major changes to release, you can +1 MAJOR part. So SMF3.0 should hopping era, should offer radical changes. Just as smCore's promises.

You know that Software Technologies are rapidly developing and changing. PHP's approach to OOP improved since the first releases of SMF. And OOP is not just converting procedural codes into classes. We should seperate this. Interfaces and Design Patterns must be used and tests should be written.

Novadays RESTful HTTP requests and API based single-page apps are using. These should be considered. SMF could use them. SMF3.0 must have module system and event mechanism, like in smCore.

In a nutshell, smCore project shouldn't die! If it is should be revived. Even SMF2.0, built based on SMF1.1, SMF3.0 shouldn't.

Kindred

SMCore is dead. Sorry.

If you feel up to reviving it, please contact the Board of Directors for Simple Machines.

In the mean time, the rest of us will move on.
I agree completely with what Arantor has outlined. (and you need to read a little closer, I think, since some of your "must not" and "must" statements directly contradict or actually match what Arantor did outline.)
Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Arantor

QuoteI hope this is joke. Semantic Versioning says that if you've major changes to release, you can +1 MAJOR part. So SMF3.0 should hopping era, should offer radical changes. Just as smCore's promises.

It's not a joke, why would it be a joke? The changes I'm promoting are massive changes.

Breaking entire compatibility with all mods, rewriting everything to use classes... yes this is a major change. But I'm not starting from scratch, I'm doing it on top of known working code. Just because it's written in one style that I don't believe is correct for current web applications doesn't mean I should throw it all out and start over (and have to battle test it all over again).

QuoteAnd OOP is not just converting procedural codes into classes. We should seperate this. Interfaces and Design Patterns must be used and tests should be written.

Hello, Zend certified engineer here. I do understand what's involved in this, probably better than most. But still the point stands: it doesn't suddenly mean that all the code is fundamentally wrong.

Also note that trying to fit a solution into one or more design patterns isn't necessarily for the best. Sometimes patterns fit a problem, sometimes problems fit a pattern. But trying to bang the drum that patterns must be used is wrong.

It also depends to a point whether your goal is correctness or performance; in a performance environment you're not going to use interfaces for most things, you're just not. (It's all code that has to be loaded, parsed, executed. For a lot of things this just doesn't actually warrant it.)

QuoteNovadays RESTful HTTP requests and API based single-page apps are using. These should be considered. SMF could use them. SMF3.0 must have module system and event mechanism, like in smCore.

RESTful suits some things. It does not entirely suit SMF.

QuoteIn a nutshell, smCore project shouldn't die! If it is should be revived. Even SMF2.0, built based on SMF1.1, SMF3.0 shouldn't.

Shouldn't die? It already did. Check Github for the time of the last commits - heck, even the smcore.org website has been defunct for months.


The problem with writing from scratch is that everything has to be rebuilt. This means it all has to be designed, tested, etc. and then debugged. As opposed to using code that is already mostly bug free.

If you don't agree, fine. Except there's one crucial difference. I'm the one offering to stand up and actually DO SOMETHING. You don't like it, fine, go do what you believe is right, come back to me in a couple of years when you've caught up to where SMF 1.1 was a decade beforehand (that's the other problem with building from scratch, it takes you at least a year to get to where you were before you started). You can stand and say how you think it should be done but unless you're actually going to DO it, none of what you think matters to anyone except you. Blunt, sure. Rude? Possibly. But doesn't change the fact it's true.
No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

Kindred

and hence my initial estimate that SMCore would take at least 5 years to come to fruition, even when we had several folks working on it regularly.
Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Arantor

I was more generous, I was saying 3 years ;)

Building a core, then a forum, from scratch - which is what smCore was - is a truly massive amount of work. Far better to take what is already established and working and refine it.

See, here's the thing. Most of the logic won't actually suddenly change. It'll be rearranged, tweaked, sure but it won't significantly be changed unless it needs to be. So you just end up reinventing the wheel for the sake of doing so. There's no need for a clean room implementation, no matter how pure it might be perceived to be.
No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

Kindred

yup.  As long as we had someone working on the 2.x series, the rest of us were willing to accept that Norv and Fustrate wanted to try to build the smCore concept design...  and not push them...  but yes, it is a MASSIVE undertaking that I am not sure they actually understood the half of when they started. :)
Please do not PM, IM or Email me with support questions.  You will get better and faster responses in the support boards.  Thank you.

"Loki is not evil, although he is certainly not a force for good. Loki is... complicated."

Arantor

Fustrate may not have, but I'm sure Norv did. One only has to look at ElkArte to understand this. And note, ElkArte is being remodelled around the same concepts I talk about with OOP, it reorganises to controllers and models (and while I don't entirely agree with the hardline MVC stuff, there is a certain logic to it) and that's built on top of SMF 2.1 as well.

The argument about throwing out the old entirely is nonsense.

I should also add, July 2010, Nao and I were talking about doing our own thing and he's the one who persuaded me not to build from scratch but invest in refining what already works and is pretty damn good, and three years later I see exactly why he was right about it. Seriously, back then I was going to do my own from-scratch forum system - DragonBB it was to be called - and I didn't appreciate the amount of stuff we all take for granted with SMF's existing code.
No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

emanuele

Quote from: Suki on September 25, 2013, 01:34:21 PM
- The customization site been revamped.
Oh don't worry, the work is still all there, nicely described. :P

Quote from: Suki on September 25, 2013, 01:34:21 PM
- SMF 3.0 development.
Good luck to you too. :P


Take a peek at what I'm doing! ;D




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Aiutateci ad aiutarvi: spiegate bene il vostro problema: no, "non funziona" non è una spiegazione!!
1) Cosa fai,
2) cosa ti aspetti,
3) cosa ottieni.

Arantor

Given the luck I'm having today, I am not seeing this as a problem :P
No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

LiroyvH

Quoteso yes, if anyone doesn't have anything to say about it, I'm offer my help too.

Cool! I'm slightly surprised and very happy to see that, Suki :)
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Please do not PM for support - anything else is usually OK.

Arantor

I meant to reply to this earlier and somehow missed it :(

Quote from: Suki on September 25, 2013, 01:34:21 PM
- SMF 3.0 development.

Yes, I can start a futile fork that will lead me exactly no-where or I can help out the very own project that I always care about, reading this topic made me realize some things (I've been thinking about it for a while anyway), for instance, if Arantor is willing to step in, why can I? certainly the issues I had in the past pales in comparison with his :P  so yes, if anyone doesn't have anything to say about it, I'm offer my help too.

Yeah, the fork thing is great if you have the drive, momentum and direction to make it work. I lost a lot of all of those with Wedge for various reasons.

You and I haven't actually worked directly together, and I know we've had our differences in the past, sure, but I think we can make it work to collaborate on something like this :)

I won't deny I was surprised to see this, but I'm very pleased of the positive vibe being generated here :)
No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

Arantor

And the answer will always be the same: when it's done and ready to go and not a moment sooner. Yes, I outlined what I perceive viable dates to be should this go ahead (it is, after all, still in discussion) but they could be changed if major new things come along.
No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

Arantor

I knew what you meant ;) Just wanted to get in before we did get people asking that sort of nonsense. You know what it's like around here... *shifty eyes*

If this occurs as outlined, you'll see regular threads about how it's going, maybe even screenshots of new features. I did always enjoy doing that elsewhere.
No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

Gargoyle

Quote from: nightbre on September 25, 2013, 07:34:00 PM
I was thinking maybe a simple progress graph to stop this happening and also save Arantor putting up with my crappy humour! ;)

Read it all... A little excited to read this thread.. Also the quoted above would be a good idea I think. Just to save the stress level of it all. (posted updates like on wedge were nice to read as well). I can't code php worth a darn but if you need any help with other stuff lemme know. I can always try.. ;D

Antes

well, grafitus is right and his idea is cool, smcore and smf3.0 top of smcore but Arantor is right and more than grafitus, because none of us here can guarantee that we can work on SMF and/or smCore for 5 years (or whatever it takes).

and whom wants to know when the SMF 3.0 released please send mail to whenwillitbereleasedarantor@simplemachines.org (which is redirect to Arantor's personal inbox j/k)

Quote from: Suki on September 25, 2013, 01:34:21 PM
so yes, if anyone doesn't have anything to say about it, I'm offer my help too.

Awesome :)

live627

* live627 sends mail  I WANTS IT NAO DAMMIT >:D

Also, bug report: > is eaten when /me is used.

Arantor

No good deed goes unpunished
All helpful urges should be circumvented

Suki

Thanks everyone for their kind replies. There are much appreciate :)
Disclaimer: unless otherwise stated, all my posts are personal and does not represent any views or opinions held by Simple Machines.

Making tough decisions, so you don't have to.

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