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Modify Boards: Allowed Groups

Started by Auke, July 21, 2014, 12:27:06 PM

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Auke

Not a real bug, but a confusing setting for newbies like me:

There is a possibility of setting which groups are allowed to a certain board. You can chose 'Regular Member' here, but also 'Newbie' and 'Member' (or whatever the latter was before I changed the name). This is confusing, since 'Newbie' etc. are subdivisions of 'Regular Member'. I would suggest to disable the option for choosing a division when it has subdivisions. In this case the division 'Regular Member' has subdivisions and its settings should thus be disabled, forcing the administrator to tick of (or not) the various subdivisions.

I think that would prevent errors. Thanks for considering! :)

Arantor

No they're not subdivisions of Regular Member, that's half the problem.

Newbie etc. are totally unrelated; someone can be an Administrator as well as in Newbie because it's ONLY driven by post count.

Not a bug.

Auke

I'll keep 'Administrators' out as they got access regardless.

If a Sr. Member is also a Newbie, he would get access as long as either Sr. Member and/or Newbie is ticked off. That wouldn't change in the (potential) new situation. But when you want to exclude people who are ONLY Newbies from having access, you now have to empty the option for Newbies AND the one for Regular Members. And that is where new admins like me can easily go wrong. Without the Regular Members option, you would have to conciously check for all the different subdivisions (like Newbie) which decreases the chance of accidents remarkably.

I don't think this would create problems, as everybody is either Guest, Regular Member, Global Moderator or Sr. Member. Regular members are just subdivided by post count. As far as I can see removing the option to tick of Regular Member (a main division) wouldn't change a thing except for a decrease in errors, since you can still tick off Newbie and Member (subdivisions).

Arantor

QuoteIf a Sr. Member is also a Newbie, he would get access as long as either Sr. Member and/or Newbie is ticked off.

A Sr. Member is not also a Newbie, at least not in the default configuration, since Sr. Member is 250-499 posts while Number is 0-49 posts. The groups are not stackable but exclusive; a member is only ever in one post count group at a time.

But whatever post count group they are in, they are ALSO in any non-post count groups at the same time.

The reason you have to untick both Newbie and Regular Member is because a person that just signs up is AUTOMATICALLY IN BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

Auke

Quote from: ‽ on July 21, 2014, 01:40:30 PM
QuoteIf a Sr. Member is also a Newbie, he would get access as long as either Sr. Member and/or Newbie is ticked off.

A Sr. Member is not also a Newbie, at least not in the default configuration, since Sr. Member is 250-499 posts while Number is 0-49 posts. The groups are not stackable but exclusive; a member is only ever in one post count group at a time.

But whatever post count group they are in, they are ALSO in any non-post count groups at the same time.

The reason you have to untick both Newbie and Regular Member is because a person that just signs up is AUTOMATICALLY IN BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

Ah, maybe I screwed up something on my forum then, because Sr. Member is NOT a post-based group on my forum. The fact that a new member is both Newbie and Regular Member at the same time is exactly why I suggest that the option to tick off Regular Member in the Modify Boards section should be disabled. Once someone is, as an Administrator, familiar with all the settings on SMF there's no problem. But a new Administrator like me may easily think he disables the option that Newbies access a certain board, while he doesn't uncheck the Regular Member option.

Arantor

It's been a long held issue in SMF's design as to this entire nature but simply disabling Regular Members won't solve the problem for those who don't want to use post-count based group access to a board. For example I don't have post-count access to the stuff I've done, in which case having to select all the post count boards is less intuitive for me than having to configure it the way I do now.

It's one of the hardest parts to deal with in SMF, that it has to be a one-size-fits-all system.

Auke

I think that not wanting to have count-based groups in the system I propose, would mean you would have to remove all sub-divisions of Regular Members minus 1 (which should be set to zero). Something like that could be mentioned behind the ?-button (which you mentioned is not used by anyone but me...).

Oh well.

Anyway, I think we're now both understanding what the other tries to say. And my idea is now here and for everybody to see, so I'll just hope it's picked up by the ones involved with making SMF even better.

Arantor

No, we're not both understanding what the other tries to say. You reiterating "remove sub-divisions of Regular Members" still indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of how the system works.

Every member is in two (or sometimes more) groups at all times. No exceptions. No debates. No arguments. The system is built around this concept.

The first group is their primary group. Whether that's "Regular Member" or something else, doesn't matter. It's still a group.

The second group is their post count group. Regardless of anything else, they will continue to have a post count group. Meaning that you can be in the Administrator group and the Newbie group at the same time even if admin permissions overrule.

In this case, you could create a board that's only accessible to users with 10 or more posts - and still end up excluding Global Moderators (which aren't subject to the admin permissions overriding everything)

Auke

Quote from: ‽ on July 21, 2014, 02:33:29 PM
In this case, you could create a board that's only accessible to users with 10 or more posts - and still end up excluding Global Moderators (which aren't subject to the admin permissions overriding everything)

Eh? Global Moderator is also in the list on Modify Boards. Normal Moderators aren't.

In the case of a Global Moderator:If there's a Global Moderator with 3 posts and I allow both Global Moderators and Regular Members access to a board but I disable this option for Newbies. Is the Global Moderator allowed here because of him being a Global Moderator or is he denied access because of being a Newbie?

In the case of a normal Moderator: If there's a moderator with 3 posts and I allow Regular Members access to a board but I disable this option for Newbies. Is the Moderator allowed here because of him being a Moderator specifically assigned to that board or is he denied access because of being a Newbie?

Arantor

That's because normal moderators are not a real group. They are only applied when you are in that board for which you are a moderator.

QuoteIn the case of a Global Moderator:If there's a Global Moderator with 3 posts and I allow both Global Moderators and Regular Members access to a board but I disable this option for Newbies. Is the Global Moderator allowed here because of him being a Global Moderator or is he denied access because of being a Newbie?

In that situation, he will have access because Global Moderator has that permission. There is no way in 2.0 to actually deny access; if any one group that a user is in (and bear in mind they are in at least two groups!) has access, they have access.

QuoteIn the case of a normal Moderator: If there's a moderator with 3 posts and I allow Regular Members access to a board but I disable this option for Newbies. Is the Moderator allowed here because of him being a Moderator specifically assigned to that board or is he denied access because of being a Newbie?

They will have access because they are in Regular Members. The post count group is irrelevant, as is Moderator because they won't have that group until they're already inside that board.

Auke

Quote from: ‽ on July 21, 2014, 03:00:31 PM
QuoteIn the case of a normal Moderator: If there's a moderator with 3 posts and I allow Regular Members access to a board but I disable this option for Newbies. Is the Moderator allowed here because of him being a Moderator specifically assigned to that board or is he denied access because of being a Newbie?

They will have access because they are in Regular Members. The post count group is irrelevant, as is Moderator because they won't have that group until they're already inside that board.
Okay, this I don't understand. If being a Newbie is irrelevant for getting access to a board, why do I have the option to deny Newbies access to a board?

Arantor

It's not irrelevant. You're not doing it how it was designed.

Unticking the board does not *deny* anything. It simply doesn't allow it, something altogether different. Not allowing something is not the same as denying it.

In your case you've picked possibly the worst examples to line it up.

Auke

Just re-read everything and found the flaw in my thinking. :-[ Thanks for being patient with me! :-*

Arantor

It's not easy to spot so the fact you found it is a good start :)

On the other hand, fixing it is another matter entirely. The whole nature of 'registered members' is a problem that's been around for years and no-one quite knows how to solve it.

Auke

Quote from: ‽ on July 21, 2014, 03:38:58 PM
On the other hand, fixing it is another matter entirely. The whole nature of 'registered members' is a problem that's been around for years and no-one quite knows how to solve it.

So what is this whole nature of 'registered members' thing? I used to be pretty good in solving problems. I'll just blame my previous flaw on the fact that I'm working directly under a corrugated metal roof just 5 degrees north of the equator while it's a sunny day... Two hours to go before the sun sets.

Arantor

Register Members are members that are registered but not in any other primary group.

Take this forum. You're in the Registered Members primary group as well as the Jr. Member post count group.
Me, I'm in the SMF Friend primary group as well as the SMF Legend post count group. (There are some other groups in play but we won't go there.)

Now, the 'Registered Members' group doesn't appear which is how come the entire 'sub-divisions' thing seems to come about. Here, Registered Members doesn't appear visibly meaning that people think it's not a real group. It's more a case of 'all members who aren't in other primary groups are in this group'. It would almost be better if it actually covered 'all registered members' regardless of other primary groups.

Auke

I see. Well, my solution would be something like what you already said: if member doesn't belong to SMF Friend and whatever other groups, then show text 'Registered Member'. But that solution is so simple that it's most likely impossible to execute.

Arantor

That's purely a cosmetic issue.

It doesn't change the fact that because I'm in SMF Friend, I'm also NOT in Registered Members.

Auke

Quote from: ‽ on July 21, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
That's purely a cosmetic issue.

It doesn't change the fact that because I'm in SMF Friend, I'm also NOT in Registered Members.

Ah, I think now I understand what you mean. You are a member, you did register, but you're not acknowledged as such. Is that it? Then the solution should be to rename de primary group 'Registered Member' into something like 'Ordinary Member'. ;D

Illori

actually it is called "Regular Members" not registered member

Arantor

Because that makes all the difference, obviously.

Illori

it is a little less confusing them registered members... which is used elsewhere and confusing if you read the text attached to that.

Kindred

You could fix this, on your system, by
1- remove all access for the regular member group
2- set up a few user selectable groups
3- require all users to select on of those groups for proper board access...

Now, anyone who has not selected a primary group of their own has no board access... And anyone who has selected a group can access the boards you give them access to...

For most sites, that is not necessary, since all members have access to most boards and the ones that they don't have access to are controlled by other than post count groups.
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