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Started by Arantor, October 08, 2017, 09:27:04 AM
QuoteThe kicker though, is that this debate reminds me of me. Everything I see in this debate echoes me, and this isn't a good thing. It makes me begin to question how much of a force I personally have been for good in this environment, and makes me think that my naive idealisms over the years have encouraged others to do the same - and I'm not convinced in some of those positions of argument that I was right. There was certainly a time when I argued against frameworks as a whole, and certainly a time when I argued against template engines, too. I find a lot of the same old issues, though, an over-cautious conservatism at a time when the entire fleet of platforms in the forum space are routinely castigated for failure to innovate, and it's harder to drive innovation on any level when the platform decides it wants a barrier to entry for even modest things like putting something to the screen. It's the same reason we don't use C to build a forum, we like having the abstractions. I'm just arguing for one more abstraction because it feels like it benefits everyone.
Quote* people who are theme people get to play with something closer to what they normally use rather than stepping through hoops. Yes, it means people can do stupid things more easily - but at the same time, it lets people who know the tools do so without having to remember to escape quotes. And people will always do stupid things, this shouldn't be a barrier to making tools easier for non-stupid use cases.
Quote* when I build Moodle plugins, even though I'm not even required to use the template system because Moodle doesn't mandate it (because Moodle doesn't use it itself for most of its plugins for historical reasons), most clients are requesting it so they can have a designer customise it without knowing Moodle's code innards. And Moodle certainly has PHP 'templates' in its core in the renderer system. Though that's a level of mind-killer with its many classes and layers of abstraction that I wouldn't impose upon anyone. But I digress - designers are the people who would like this.
QuoteAlso, on an ironic note, this debate somehow ended up talking about C. Who remembers the doomed project smflib, that reimplemented bits of SMF as C so they would be PHP extensions for the really really big forums? I do...
QuoteEven though multiple reasons were exposed, you chose to focus solely on this point. You haven't addressed any point about helping development, for example.There have been arguments about helping themers and helping regular users, you decided each was a separate argument which is not, as I have been saying, this thing AFFECTS everyone, not just you, not just themers.
QuoteThey aren't assumptions. It is quite clear you haven't used a template engine. It is quite clear you haven't worked on a big project either. All the arguments you try to make were already made a few years ago. Really sorry to say this to you but get on with the times
QuoteAgain, the chose for using a template engine comes from measuring all those aspects (and others who aren't directly related to programming) and based on all that info we decided a template engine is the best choice.
QuoteBy definition, an engine will keep presentation away from logic, this means heavy logic CANT be performed on a theme file. This actually prevents doing dumb stuff.
QuoteThis is yet another thing you conveniently ignore. Whoever gets in charge of building the next version has to take into account all the different types of people who are going to use SMF. From devs to themers to admins to users to hostings.
QuoteI was saying I could reply with random text and you will still focus on your ideas. This whole thing was been a big waste of time since you don't really want to have a discussion, all you want to do is showing you are right.
Quote from: Suki on October 20, 2017, 04:52:38 PMYou know, I kinda wonder where are all those noisy themers who were very vocal about how terrible SMF themming system is and how much weight we gave to backend instead of frontend... here we are, a few years later actually defending their case
Quote from: Arantor on October 20, 2017, 05:30:37 PMThey all left already for other platforms where theming isn't so hard.