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Author Topic: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released  (Read 115130 times)

Offline SugarD-x

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #140 on: July 26, 2019, 12:38:23 PM »
lol even the spambots are impressed!

Offline Gazmanafc

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #141 on: July 26, 2019, 01:44:08 PM »
That's not exactly anything new, they're impressed by everything. :P
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Offline Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #142 on: July 26, 2019, 02:23:10 PM »
They are the easily impressed type.
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Offline Owdy

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #143 on: August 01, 2019, 04:43:17 AM »

Modification and theme authors are encouraged to check the roadmap for our upcoming development milestones when deciding how to update their modifications and themes for SMF 2.1.
So next version is going to be RC3, not final?
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Online SychO

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #144 on: August 01, 2019, 04:50:18 AM »
Yes

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Offline Owdy

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #145 on: August 01, 2019, 04:55:18 AM »
Well, maybe i'm bold enough to upgrade. :) RC is RC.
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Offline deathshadow

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #146 on: August 14, 2019, 02:16:05 PM »
Just loaded it up as I'm working on a custom skin, wanted to see how/if any differences would interfere... and I've a few questions... questions that make me want to abandon using SMF on future projects.

1) When did you folks decide to piss on the JavaScript with the train wreck laundry list of how NOT to write JavaScript that is jQuery.

2) When did you decide "screw scripting off graceful degradation"

3) Why does JavaScript appear to be STILL used for things that don't even warrant the use of scripting?

4) Will this program EVER evolve past HTML 3.2 style development with endless pointless classes for nothing, a relative lack of proper semantics, lack of leveraging selectors, endless separate scripts increasing the handshaking overhead, etc, etc, etc.

It's like every forum software I'm trying now either seems to think that you need 62k of markup and a megabyte of JavaScript spanning 24 files to deliver 6k of plaintext! About the only thing I can compliment is the CSS, and even that's likely twice what's needed given the simplicity of these layouts.

Just slopping <!DOCTYPE html> at the top doesn't modernize the code guys... and slopping the disaster of ignorance and incompetence that are clearing div/breaks, pointless attributes, presentational classes, and the host of other issues that are the bleeding edge of late '90's "4 tranny" development techniques.

But, could be worse, you could have walked through a steaming pile of bootcrap then tracked it all over the software's carpets. There's a reason as a front end developer when I see bootstrap I tell people to go find a stick to scrape it off with.

*SIGH* is there ANY off the shelf forum software that actually embraced the concepts of 4 strict, doesn't wet the bed with "JS for nothing" on things that shouldn't even be scripted, and basically build itself up as a monument to the worst practices in web development?
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Offline Gwenwyfar

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #147 on: August 14, 2019, 02:31:17 PM »
Well, perhaps to answer some of that... 2.1 is 2.X and not 3.0 because it is a minor version upgrade. No, it doesn't fix a lot of 2.0 problems, it's just generally better with some extra features. And when you take into account that initially, the plan was to not even change as much as it did, that's what you have.

As for some other questions: Maybe the fact there has practically been no front end developer working in 2.1 for much of it's development span might hold the biggest slice of the blame. And yep, it sucks. Github is always that way though *points*, since right now there's one front end dev, +1 might make it double the amount it has had for a long time.

Although, by RC stage it might be too late to get anything meaningful out. I fixed some of it but many things are under "let's not change much" lock.
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Offline Arantor

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #148 on: August 14, 2019, 03:18:29 PM »
Quote
1) When did you folks decide to piss on the JavaScript with the train wreck laundry list of how NOT to write JavaScript that is jQuery.

Because a lot of mod authors want to use it and it makes sense to include it (and then simplify the code by making use of it)

Quote
2) When did you decide "screw scripting off graceful degradation"

I'm not sure what you mean. Certainly everything I wrote in 2.1 would work just fine without JavaScript but the UX would be improved with it. Would appreciate some examples of what you're referring to though.

Quote
3) Why does JavaScript appear to be STILL used for things that don't even warrant the use of scripting?

Such as?

Quote
4) Will this program EVER evolve past HTML 3.2 style development with endless pointless classes for nothing, a relative lack of proper semantics, lack of leveraging selectors, endless separate scripts increasing the handshaking overhead, etc, etc, etc.

Some of these points have already been raised in the final review prior to 2.1 final, but mostly we've learned from the last 15 years that mod authors and theme authors like actually having these things available for customisation.

The separate scripts deal also actually ended up being more of an overhead than not when we benchmarked it over months of real world usage, but thanks for the suggestion.

Quote
It's like every forum software I'm trying now either seems to think that you need 62k of markup and a megabyte of JavaScript spanning 24 files to deliver 6k of plaintext! About the only thing I can compliment is the CSS, and even that's likely twice what's needed given the simplicity of these layouts.

Ah, you used Discourse, my sympathies.

Quote
Just slopping <!DOCTYPE html> at the top doesn't modernize the code guys... and slopping the disaster of ignorance and incompetence that are clearing div/breaks, pointless attributes, presentational classes, and the host of other issues that are the bleeding edge of late '90's "4 tranny" development techniques.

Unfortunately we had to prioritise adding functionality that people cared about over 'modernising the code' to your satisfaction.

Quote
But, could be worse, you could have walked through a steaming pile of bootcrap then tracked it all over the software's carpets. There's a reason as a front end developer when I see bootstrap I tell people to go find a stick to scrape it off with.

That reminds me...

* Arantor adds to 3.0 feature list to include Bootstrap 4, it has been highly requested by mod and theme authors.

Quote
*SIGH* is there ANY off the shelf forum software that actually embraced the concepts of 4 strict, doesn't wet the bed with "JS for nothing" on things that shouldn't even be scripted, and basically build itself up as a monument to the worst practices in web development?

vBulletin 3, still available with lifetime licenses from Internet Brands?
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #149 on: August 14, 2019, 06:30:15 PM »
That reminds me...

* Arantor adds to 3.0 feature list to include Bootstrap 4, it has been highly requested by mod and theme authors.

* Antechinus thinks "It'll be fun removing it."

Offline Antechinus

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #150 on: August 14, 2019, 06:55:40 PM »
4) Will this program EVER evolve past HTML 3.2 style development with endless pointless classes for nothing, a relative lack of proper semantics, lack of leveraging selectors, endless separate scripts increasing the handshaking overhead, etc, etc, etc.

Leveraging selectors is all very well sometimes, but frankly most people who want to customise the code won't give a rat's arse about the markup. They'll do it with the CSS, and descendant chains are a PITA if you are a relatively inexperienced person looking to do some minor changes. It's much easier if there is a handy descriptive class that you can nail by itself.

Take drop menu styling as an example. Sure, you can do it all as descendants in the CSS, with no classes at all, but it makes for ******ty CSS. If you want to tweak presentation on the third ul down or its child elements, the CSS becomes much cleaner and easier if that can be targeted by class. Which SMF 2.1 still doesn't do, so is still a PITA in that respect.

Frankly I think the HTML5 specs were downright stupid in some ways. The bloke that dreamed them up had visions of writing markup with no classes at all, apparently due to an obsession with clean markup alone at the expense of everything else, and for that reason thought "leveraging selectors" would be the perfect solution for everything.

My 2c is that this leads to pure isanity in the CSS. I'd much rather have .fruitbats {color: brown;} than html > body > div > div > header > article > footer > aside > my old man's a dustman > oh hey here's another one > div > span > oh yeah you might want to be targeting this particular mofo {color: brown;}.

ETA: Incidentally, speaking of drop menus, I'm inclined to think a dl makes more sense for them than a ul. Not that it really matters that much, but it does seem to be a better fit. However, this comes back to what I said earlier: most users won't give a rat's about the markup anyway.

Offline Gwenwyfar

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #151 on: August 15, 2019, 07:15:46 AM »
Quote
Unfortunately we had to prioritise adding functionality that people cared about over 'modernising the code'
Yup, that's a thing. This goes back to the point of lack of front end devs. At the same time I was working in 2.1, I also forwent doing anything in translation, being that I'm the sole PT translator for years. When there aren't enough team members you do what's more important, and these issues aren't at the top of the list if you could literally pick anything.

"Why are there so few devs" would be another subject/problem entirely, however.

Quote
* Arantor adds to 3.0 feature list to include Bootstrap 4, it has been highly requested by mod and theme authors
I don't think "a lot of people requested it" is a good enough reason to do anything, in my opinion...



@Antechinus:

2.1 doesn't do much of any html/css that well, I think you can have a good balance of intelligent use of just going through descendants and having classes that are actually meaningful and useful. Some css in 2.1 makes the worst use of both. When you don't have 3 different classes and even styling for the same thing, or mixed with IDs when it should be just a class.

Quote
ETA: Incidentally, speaking of drop menus, I'm inclined to think a dl makes more sense for them than a ul. Not that it really matters that much, but it does seem to be a better fit. However, this comes back to what I said earlier: most users won't give a rat's about the markup anyway.
Eh? How would that work? Like those menus with descriptions?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 07:26:30 AM by Gwenwyfar »
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #152 on: August 15, 2019, 07:00:33 PM »
Descendants are useful sometimes, if used in moderation. I'm not opposed to them in all circumstances, but OTOH I think there's nothing wrong with using classes where they will make things easier for people. It means using a bit more bandwidth for HTML, but we have to write code to be human-friendly to some extent. And sure, some of the current 2.1 CSS is overly specific, which is not a good thing (have grumbled about it before).

Re dl's: the parent tab (ie: the dt) sets the category, and the dd's list the items in that category. This makes it ideal for things like drop menus, or for that matter the board index.

Code: [Select]
<dl>
<dt>Profile</dt>
<dd>Summary</dd>
<dd>Account settings</dd>
<dd>Forum profile</dd>
</dl>

The only catch being you need to have at least one dd for each dt, so not so good if you have some tabs with no dropdowns. But if all your top level tabs have dropdowns, then in some ways a dl makes more sense than a ul. And obviously you won't be having any forum categories without boards, so it makes sense for a board index.

But this is the sort of thing semantics freaks worry about and start religious wars over. It's completely irrelevant to actual users of the software.

Offline Arantor

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #153 on: August 15, 2019, 07:04:40 PM »
Does it *really* use more bandwidth? The browser will invariably be compressing before it sends.

Fun fact, stripping out all the spaces from indentation in the HTML invariably makes the document bigger because it doesn't compress so well.
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #154 on: August 15, 2019, 07:10:27 PM »
Well I haven't benchmarked it, so I don't know, but I would assume adding more content to the HTML would increase bandwidth requirements. Not an awful lot for sane use of classes, but I'd be surprised if it had no effect at all.

Cool tip about the indentation. Personally I love good indentation, so would never strip it out anyway.

Offline Arantor

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #155 on: August 15, 2019, 07:16:20 PM »
Superficially, sure, but in practice you'd *really* to benchmark it and I'd bet it actually ends up being so negligible that it doesn't matter, and it's very likely that it'll end up better anyway, these things do compress weirdly.
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #156 on: August 15, 2019, 07:24:18 PM »
Right. Well in that case we can use as many classes as we like, and to hell with HTML purists.

Offline Gwenwyfar

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #157 on: August 15, 2019, 09:05:26 PM »
Quote
* Arantor adds to 3.0 feature list to include Bootstrap 4, it has been highly requested by mod and theme authors
I don't think "a lot of people requested it" is a good enough reason to do anything, in my opinion...
I just realized that I missed the joke here... and this time I actually read it right!

Descendants are useful sometimes, if used in moderation. I'm not opposed to them in all circumstances, but OTOH I think there's nothing wrong with using classes where they will make things easier for people. It means using a bit more bandwidth for HTML, but we have to write code to be human-friendly to some extent. And sure, some of the current 2.1 CSS is overly specific, which is not a good thing (have grumbled about it before).

Re dl's: the parent tab (ie: the dt) sets the category, and the dd's list the items in that category. This makes it ideal for things like drop menus, or for that matter the board index.

Code: [Select]
<dl>
<dt>Profile</dt>
<dd>Summary</dd>
<dd>Account settings</dd>
<dd>Forum profile</dd>
</dl>

The only catch being you need to have at least one dd for each dt, so not so good if you have some tabs with no dropdowns. But if all your top level tabs have dropdowns, then in some ways a dl makes more sense than a ul. And obviously you won't be having any forum categories without boards, so it makes sense for a board index.

But this is the sort of thing semantics freaks worry about and start religious wars over. It's completely irrelevant to actual users of the software.
Sounds a bit clunky unless you know beforehand you'll always have multiple items, and even then you might want to not have it on one place later for whatever reason.

For boards, I dunno. Maybe?

Right. Well in that case we can use as many classes as we like, and to hell with HTML purists.
Even if you end up having div.h3 and then h3.h2?  :laugh:

(Legit case, forumotion takes the prize for that and many other atrocities)
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Offline Antechinus

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #158 on: August 15, 2019, 09:12:04 PM »
Those aren't classes. Or at least I hope not. Anyone who names classes after tag names, for the wrong tag even, needs to be shot before they get near a code editor. :P

I also love names like .big_blue_text, which works awesomely well when someone decide they want it small and red. SMF's .floatleft is awesome too, especially in rtl.css where it says .floatleft {float: right;} :P

Offline Gwenwyfar

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Re: SMF 2.1 RC2 Released
« Reply #159 on: Yesterday at 06:35:42 AM »
Yep, they were classes. Those are just a few that I remember because looking over their code was an all out "what the hell", which quickly spiraled to "yeah let's just move outta here" (which is another fun thing because they claim your content is theirs and they actively try to kill any scraper bots, honestly I don't know why they ever left invision). And in theory the original forum owner now owes them 300.000 euros because they are that anal.

Another thing they had were some 200+ requests for js/css/image/icon files in every page load and it took forever to load. They "upgraded" it recently to look generic/modernish but I don't know if they actually rewrote any of that or just piled on top of it.

Take home message: Forumotion is the undisputed poop champion of the forum world (I'd really love to see if someone manages to be worse than them, it's a feat).

Quote
I also love names like .big_blue_text, which works awesomely well when someone decide they want it small and red. SMF's .floatleft is awesome too, especially in rtl.css where it says .floatleft {float: right;} :P
:laugh:
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:49:02 AM by Gwenwyfar »
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