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Author Topic: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?  (Read 1432 times)

Offline sky23

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For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« on: March 21, 2019, 12:12:10 PM »
Anybody checked this? If Admin logs in, the Admin Mail Button is visible, but for a regular Member the Admin Mail Button in his Profile is gone.
Settings are ok, not much to setup anyway

Offline Illori

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 12:14:01 PM »
this is expected behavior in SMF 2.1 last I checked.

Offline SychO

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 01:24:38 PM »
As far as I remember, every user can choose whether their email adresse will shown to other users or not, admins on the other hand can always see emails.

Imazighen

Offline Illori

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 01:26:12 PM »
I believe that changed in SMF 2.1, the feature was removed completely.

Offline SychO

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 01:44:28 PM »
Oh you're right, I never noticed, members can't see other email adresses period.

Imazighen

Offline sky23

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 02:49:18 PM »
Hmmm, over the years, more and more,...Freedom of Choices gone with the wind. For me? Really hard to understand!

Offline Illori

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 02:50:53 PM »
if a user wants to share their email address they can send it to whoever they want. they don't need an inbuilt function to do it for them.

Offline sky23

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 02:55:05 PM »
Wrong, absolutely wrong! A Admin should be in the position, to be reachable with this simple Button, if he wants to be reached this way! It is not the decision of the Developers to deny such a important feature! So many different purposes of the Boards..so many different usages!

By my knowing there is not one other Forum Software doing this, Illori...maybe the Vatican have one, no idea...

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 03:04:13 PM »
You really like giving out your personal email address to potentially every member of the forum? Really? (Because that's what that button does.)

Never mind that it's potentially a GDPR problem to deal with, never mind that if a spammer gets onto your site, you're going to be shoved onto spam lists like nobody's business.

You know why no other forum software does it? Because 15 years ago when the function was added, spam wasn't nearly the same problem, and they have all removed it because it's a bad idea these days to have that function available.

I'm pretty certain it was my decision to remove it actually.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 04:55:46 PM »
Is there a contact link in 2.1?   There have been frequent posts here from forum members who are unable to login, or guests unable to register, who have no way of contacting an admin to resolve the problem.  I believe there's at least one mod that adds a contact form (never tried it).  IIRC, phpbb has an admin option to display a contact link.

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 05:00:13 PM »
It was always on my plan to implement, but it hasn't been implemented AFAIK - then again, neither have the GDPR features.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2019, 05:09:43 PM »
Kind of ironic, there's a contact form here, though it's well hidden.

Offline Sesquipedalian

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2019, 10:52:34 PM »
It is not the decision of the Developers to deny such a important feature!

It is precisely a decision for the developers. Nevertheless, your feedback is appreciated and will be given consideration. Thank you. :)
I promise you nothing.

Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

Offline sky23

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2019, 04:35:24 AM »
Hi Sesquipedalian, thank you for your kind point of view, appreciate a consideration.

It's only my opinion, many times we have had here discussions about "Freedom of Choice" matters...

Making a Poll or else would all enlighten us maybe, i think the majority would like to see this feature.
Admin's don't like it later, they could just switch it off.

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2019, 05:22:43 AM »
Given that the feature used to exist up until 2.1 and was only removed between a combination of lack of use, and abuse when it was used, it seemed a perfect justification to me to remove it at the time I removed it.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

No good deed goes unpunished / No act of charity goes unresented.

Offline Illori

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2019, 05:45:43 AM »
we dont have time to run a poll here each time a dev wants to make a change in the next version of SMF. we want the dev team to do what they see necessary to move forward. if you want the feature back, find a developer and ask them to code it for you as a mod.

Offline sky23

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2019, 06:49:00 AM »
@illori, @Arantor
clear, all clear...

But i do not think that this Admin-Mail feature was taken off cause of lack of use.

Wouldn't it be possible to do a kind of wish list then?

For me, FREEDOM OF CHOICE should have first priority.
Means: A Admin should have full control over these kinds of features.  :)




Offline Illori

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2019, 07:12:11 AM »
we are not adding a feature back that has been removed. if you want it back you need to hire someone to code it for you.

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2019, 07:16:03 AM »
@illori, @Arantor
clear, all clear...

But i do not think that this Admin-Mail feature was taken off cause of lack of use.

Wouldn't it be possible to do a kind of wish list then?

For me, FREEDOM OF CHOICE should have first priority.
Means: A Admin should have full control over these kinds of features.  :)

You realise you are literally arguing with the person who removed it over why they removed it. I know exactly why I removed it and that was after talking to the people using forums at the time. The reality is that the feature simply isn't used nearly as much as you claim, and a feature you decide you need does not equate to a feature that everyone needs.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

No good deed goes unpunished / No act of charity goes unresented.

Offline sky23

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2019, 08:31:22 AM »
Didn't know that you are part of the Dev Team, but now i do.
Explains it for me now...

Offline Illori

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2019, 08:40:18 AM »
he was part of the dev team. he is not currently a member of the team.

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2019, 08:56:46 AM »
Didn't know that you are part of the Dev Team, but now i do.
Explains it for me now...

I was in 2013/14 when this feature was removed.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

No good deed goes unpunished / No act of charity goes unresented.

Offline GigaWatt

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2019, 04:23:22 PM »
You really like giving out your personal email address to potentially every member of the forum? Really? (Because that's what that button does.)

Yes, I may want to this for a reason... not your every day scenario, I know, but there could be scenarios where this feature might come in handy (forums with invite only registration comes to mind, where you probably have like 100 members and they all seem to know each other pretty well, including you, the admin).

Never mind that it's potentially a GDPR problem to deal with, never mind that if a spammer gets onto your site, you're going to be shoved onto spam lists like nobody's business.

This option could easily be made available to the admin if he chooses not to enforce GDPR.

But, I agree with you on that point, being a GDPR nightmare. That's why it should be made a feature only if you choose not to enforce GDPR on your forum. You can't have it both ways ;).

Given that the feature used to exist up until 2.1 and was only removed between a combination of lack of use, and abuse when it was used, it seemed a perfect justification to me to remove it at the time I removed it.

There may have been abuses of the feature, but that doesn't mean that it should not be present in the software. The feature doesn't "break" the software, does it :)? People misuse features and should therefore take responsibility for it, not the ones making the software ;).

For me, FREEDOM OF CHOICE should have first priority.
Means: A Admin should have full control over these kinds of features.  :)

Completely agree with you on this ;).

You realise you are literally arguing with the person who removed it over why they removed it. I know exactly why I removed it and that was after talking to the people using forums at the time. The reality is that the feature simply isn't used nearly as much as you claim, and a feature you decide you need does not equate to a feature that everyone needs.

But, then again, that doesn't mean that no one uses it, right? And adding or removing that feature doesn't mean a redesign of the software from scratch, right ;). So, why remove it.
"This is really a generic concept about human thinking - when faced with large tasks we're naturally inclined to try to break them down into a bunch of smaller tasks that together make up the whole."

"A 500 error loosely translates to the webserver saying, "WTF?"..."

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2019, 04:34:21 PM »
I think y'all missing the point here. We're not discussing a feature that doesn't exist. We're discussing a feature 2.0 had that routinely got abused for spam purposes and so it was removed. The fact it discloses email addresses is just a side detail.

But sure, this is just another decision I made that I got wrong. Sorry for ruining your day everyone.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

No good deed goes unpunished / No act of charity goes unresented.

Offline GigaWatt

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2019, 05:05:48 PM »
But sure, this is just another decision I made that I got wrong. Sorry for ruining your day everyone.

Nobody is pointing a finger at you, I'm just trying to understand why that decision was made. It could've been anybody, not just you. You made it because you believe it got got abused (as reported by users). Agreed, that's a valid point, but wouldn't it be a better option not to remove it completely, just disable it and make the option visible for advanced users only, like putting a switch in Settings.php to make the option visible ;)?
"This is really a generic concept about human thinking - when faced with large tasks we're naturally inclined to try to break them down into a bunch of smaller tasks that together make up the whole."

"A 500 error loosely translates to the webserver saying, "WTF?"..."

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2019, 05:20:10 PM »
Firstly, it's a feature that is off by default in 2.0 to share your details. So already it's a limited feature. Secondly, every single forum I was running at the time - and every SMF forum I was a member of where this was actually turned on by people was reporting spam through it. (Including here.)

Turning off the permissions for it - i.e. disabling the feature - was the only way to avoid this.

If the concern is about getting some kind of contact feature for the admin, use a damned contact form (i.e. the correct tool for the job) and not abusing a 'feature' that has been problematic for over a decade.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

No good deed goes unpunished / No act of charity goes unresented.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Offline GigaWatt

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2019, 05:29:23 PM »
Yes, I know the contact page mod ;). I have it installed and it's working fine ;).

Still, as I said, it could've been removed and a switch added in Settings.php... a far better solution IMO.
"This is really a generic concept about human thinking - when faced with large tasks we're naturally inclined to try to break them down into a bunch of smaller tasks that together make up the whole."

"A 500 error loosely translates to the webserver saying, "WTF?"..."

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2019, 05:35:49 PM »
Then we'd have a million options and software that was impossible to debug.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

No good deed goes unpunished / No act of charity goes unresented.

Offline GigaWatt

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2019, 05:37:45 PM »
Well, you cornered me with that comment :P :).
"This is really a generic concept about human thinking - when faced with large tasks we're naturally inclined to try to break them down into a bunch of smaller tasks that together make up the whole."

"A 500 error loosely translates to the webserver saying, "WTF?"..."

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2019, 05:38:55 PM »
No, if I really wanted to corner you, I'd point out the S in SMF stands for SIMPLE.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

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Offline SychO

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2019, 05:41:12 PM »
indeed, some things are better left for customisations.

Imazighen

Offline sky23

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2019, 12:46:29 PM »
@Giga Watt
Agree with you in each point of your responses!
Feels good to read what you wrote..

Specially the "Freedom of Choice" thing... ;D

Offline Arantor

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Re: For Members no Admin Mail Button visible?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2019, 06:29:14 PM »
Yes, you're free to install a mod that does it ;D Or pay someone to build a mod for it. Or even ask for it to be added - just as I was free to remove it doing what I believed to be the right thing.
Don’t try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person. You haven’t had enough to know what it’s like.

No good deed goes unpunished / No act of charity goes unresented.