Accessability Themes and setup.

[Confused Too]

In the UK the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) came into force in 1985.  However, the update came into force on the 1st October 2004 which requires suppliers of services and goods to make their market place accessable to people with disabilities.  This has an impact on the internet too as a webmaster must try and make their site accessable to people with sight and hearing disabilities.
I have searched this forum for templats which could be used to go some way toward complying with the DDA but all I can find are very nice colourful ones and copyrighted ones which can't be altered to accommodate.

What I would like to know would it be possible to produce a mod which would include an option near the top of the forum possibly the first button in the menu to a page where accessability options are available.  The options which should be available should include:-

• Text only Themes for screen readers and visually impaired.
• High Contrast versions i.e Black background and white text.
• High Contrast versions i.e White background and black text.
• Dyslexia friendly i.e. Yellow background and Black text.
• Colour Blind friendly i.e. pastel colours.
• Text Only for Screen readers with a layout compatable
• Keyboard shortcuts for quick navigation

Although this may not be a high volume request it could be built into future releases for SMF forums as either a downloadable plug-in or as an install on demand option when setting up a forum.   Even if never used it would be available for use to any visitors so ensuring you and I am not excluding people with disabilities.

As the webmaster of www.ndpa.info I have a duty to provide this to my members and public and one of our committee is blind and says that the forum is completely unusable for him as it stands.  He does have a reader employed for him at work so can use it but not everyone has that privilege.

[Confused Too]

Is this in the too difficult box or is it a feature no one thinks is necessary?

[Confused Too]

Looks like this may be too difficult and it appears that no one wants it looking at the vote.....  1 of those imy vote..... 

[Ben_S]

Most screen readers will be able to cope perfectly well with the SMF default theme, therefore it should be compliant with the DDA out of the box.

[Sheepy]

There may be too many redundent or unimportant details for screen readers.  It's tendious to listen to your own id, login time, current time, news, etc..  And for every post, the poster's group, title, online status, post count, gender, karma, slogan, text version of every possible action (including 'read user's profile), and other things.  And then you've got the title, which is usually the same for every replies.  All these repeated on every post.

I don't know what's it exactly like, though.  I am not disabled.

[Confused Too]

Most screen readers will be able to cope perfectly well with the SMF default theme, therefore it should be compliant with the DDA out of the box.

Ben, I am told it is not compliant, however, is more so than most.  The fact that SMF is almost XHTML compliant does help.  However, what I was hoping for was some serious consultation and testing by people with screen readers and Dyslexia and sight difficulties first.  Sadly some of the best forums are the old ones like DiscusWare due to their very simple and pure HTML make up.

[Confused Too]

There may be too many redundant or unimportant details for screen readers.  It's tedious to listen to your own id, login time, current time, news, etc..  And for every post, the poster's group, title, online status, post count, gender, karma, slogan, text version of every possible action (including 'read user's profile), and other things.  And then you've got the title, which is usually the same for every replies.  All these repeated on every post.
I don't know what's it exactly like, though.  I am not disabled.

Sheepy I don't have a visual disability either so have difficulty getting my head round what is needed.  Plain Text is what I hear from some,  Just like the BBC's text alternative to their normal website.
As far as there being too much the screen readers don't have to read everything.  One thing I have done on the www.ndpa.info site is to put two links right at the top so small you can't even see them but are the first a screen reader finds.  The links go to the menu and to the main content of each page.  They tab then enter and go directly to the bits they want.  Which is why we need to have consultation about these things as I bet that there are very few if any visually impaired people use these boards because they are too complex for them to get their heads round using a screen reader. 
Someone likens it to a person being given a flow chart to follow to achieve a goal but no one put in the links or text from one part to another.

[Sheepy]

Aha, yes I see the links.  My idea was they're like text browsers that read instead of show.  Apparently I am not correct.

And here's a good news: SMF 1.1 should sees even better compliance.  I got some HTML Tidy warnings, but XHTML Validation reports ok.

[Confused Too]

Aha, yes I see the links.  My idea was they're like text browsers that read instead of show.  Apparently I am not correct.
And here's a good news: SMF 1.1 should sees even better compliance.  I got some HTML Tidy warnings, but XHTML Validation reports OK.

Sheepy I think the principle for good sites from a text readers perspective like Jaws is that the HTML is stripped of mark-up and read as is.  Images without alt text or title text are just read as 'image' Links without Title text are read as the link is i.e. http://www.mylousysite.com etc....  Apparently one of the irritating things for someone with a screen reader is that it doesn't read things as you would expect and tables cause real problems if there are too many and too many nested.  However, one of the things that screen reader users do like is a list of links at the very top with links to things like main content, menu bar etc....  so a page to you and I looks obvious but to a blind person the page is not read in the same order you or I see it visually.
I found the www.accessifyforum.com forum today and have asked someone there to have a critical look over the NDPA site for me so there will hopefully be some feedback about the forum too.

[Confused Too]

Can I take it that this Mod request will be left in the too difficult box? 

[Col]

I've only recently become aware of the WAP, WAP2 and imode features of SMF. WAP is not going to be very useful for most of my members, and I'm unsure of what imode is about. I couldn't find any information here at SMF! Anyway, would one of these offer what is needed for greater accessibilty? They will not offer everything, but they are higher contrast, and I'm sure would be far easier for text readers to follow.

I agree, about access though. It would be great to see this included with SMF. It is only a templating issue after all. I'm overhauling my site, and I will endevour to produce greater disability access as soon as I have the basics done.

This thread should be on the Feature Requests boards though, as it should be standard, and not a mod.

Think, any one of you here could find that tomorrow you need greater accessibility to sites and forums.

[Peter Duggan]

Question: Should SMF Be Accessible by People with Disabilities?

To answer the poll question first (as well as vote), of course it should!

Is this in the too difficult box or is it a feature no one thinks is necessary?

Probably neither of these. But there are changes in the works which should make it easier.

Which is why we need to have consultation about these things as I bet that there are very few if any visually impaired people use these boards because they are too complex for them to get their heads round using a screen reader.

FYI, there are some (including team members and friends), but that doesn't mean things can't be improved!

[Confused Too]

OK it looks like the disadvantaged will have to take a backseat for the time being......
A little statistical information which may put some perspective to the volume of people who either can not access SMF forums or have difficulty accessing forums:-

Disabled people account for some ten per cent of the UK population, about 11 million adults and 770,000 children. While higher numbers of children are being born and living with disabilities than ever before, levels of disability do increase with age: 8% of those aged 16-17 years have a current long-term disability, compared with 33% of those aged 50 to 65. One in five of disabled people is of working age. In addition, one in seven people at any one time may experience significant mental health problems. Of disabled people overall, in broad terms:

70% have difficulty walking and/or climbing steps;
41% have a hearing loss;
24% have a vision loss.
Disabled people are not a homogeneous group with identical needs. For example the needs of people with mental health problems or learning disabilities are distinct from those of wheelchair users. Even within disabilities needs vary; for example a profoundly deaf person will not benefit from an induction loop.

Disabled people live throughout the community. One in four households has a disabled resident. The need for access for disabled people is not limited to specific areas or buildings, but present throughout the wider transport and the built environment systems.

In broad terms, over the next 30 years:

The proportion of the population over 65 will rise by 40%;
The number of people aged over 65 will double;
Both the proportion and the number over 80 will double.
Over the same period that will bring about these changes in the population profile, the overall population will increase by about 9%.

This rising population of disabled people has a spending power of around £80 billion each year. They will have higher expectations for travel.

Thanks again I just hope the developers are able to come back to this when they have time.

[westis]

I too would be very interested in  having SimpleMachines conform to accessability standards. I suppose a lot could be done by simply changing in the theme, but other things would require changes in the SMF files.

Are there any people interested in a discussion about what needs to be done and we can help out the developers to make SMF a forum that lives up to accessability standards? phpBB has had people working on that, SMF can't be worse then, right?

[Confused Too]

It would be a logical way to go for SMF.  However, not being a fully paid up member we can only hope that the ones who know how to do it come up with a small side project to make it more accessable.

In the mean time I would be willing to take part in a discussion about the accessability needs of individuals and even have a go at the code. 

[Tim]

Discussions are in place to improve the accessability and usability of SMF.

Please remember that the current html base is 5 years old and it will take some time to redo everything. This presents the perfect oppurtunity to make the changes needed.

I'll keep bugging the team with advise, rest asured

[bloc]

I haven't noticed this topic earlier, sorry for that.

To start it off..what are needed to make SMF better for people with disabilities? Things like menus to instantly increase fontsize, using a high-contrast stylesheet for example? The option to filter out uneeded info, "stripping" the pages for only the most importnant stuff...etc. Is this things that would be helpful? I am not thinking using the wap modes for this, because they target a different medium..cellphones etc. and this is more a way to show the "normal" information in different ways.

SMF is XHTML compliant, but as Tim says , use an older codebase to make sure it will work in most browsers.

[Col]

I imagine that more than one option will be needed, as different people have different access issues. I think that making the forum accessable to those with older browsers is an issue that goes beyond "accessability" issues.

I know that SMF is keen on standards compliance, and I see these as just more standards that SMF should strive for. I guess even if that makes certain views non-W3C compliant, that is a compromise worth making.

[bloc]

It should be possible to still retain W3C compliance..we just have to work harder on it. Sacrificing validity is not an option..

So, 1.) having a extra stylesheet that explicitly targets small fontsize/low-contrast colors and 2.) option to wipe out extranous or repeated identical information by showing the pages with a special setting...could be something?

This would maybe help people with vision/color problems and hearing disabilty, which needs all text read out or transcripted to braille(?) signs...people with reduced motion ability, hm, more automated tasks perhaps?

[Tim]

To start there should be an accessible theme which throws out everything that is non-essential.

other reading:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/

[westis]

Wow, this is great! I'm fairly new to accessibility myself, but there are a couple of issues I suppose could be introduced in the default template to make that more accessible.

1. Table heads, <th>, for the tables that are not used for layout, that is such as the list of topics, as well as <caption> and table summary. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#data-tables

2. No tables for layout purposes only (but only for tabular data). For example, the userinfo could be tableless with divs only. Same for post new topic/reply page.

3. Of course using relative font sizes (% or em), which I suppose it already is in the default template. But also for layout.

4. <LABEL> tags for forms, such as posting new topic/reply, login etc.. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#forms-labels


A styleswitcher at the top would be good too, as suggested (with larger font-size, higher contrast and possibly row width as options).

There's of course much more that can be done, but as I'm quite new to this I'm sure there are other people in much better positions than me to suggest what can be done.

Thanks a lot for working on this and Happy New Year!!!

[Confused Too]

It should be possible to still retain W3C compliance..we just have to work harder on it. Sacrificing validity is not an option..

Thanks Bloc I have gone a little way to accessability on our forum with a couple of High Contrast Themes and a Text only version.  www.ndpa.info if you visit create an account and you can change your settings in the profile and you will see what I have done.  Yes I know very basic but effective for the time I have had to play.

[bloc]

Westis, I am working on a theme which will use no inline css and tables only for tabular data. It will also have a stylesheet-chooser...its a experiment to see how it performs.

HuttonIT, this should also make it easier when all css is drawn out of the templates. 

[westis]

Bloc, that's wonderful news!

Will that be for SMF 1.1? Or an indepentent theme?

Just out of curiosity, in what files will you not be using tables?

Thanks.

[bloc]

I will work on 1.1 version first - then perhaps for 1.0.5 too, if there is any interest.

As of now I have a tableless index.template, but boardindex.template use 2 tables, one for the boards and one for the infocenter sections. Hard to make it work with just divs..but the table(s) have all css put in stylesheet, only the cellpadding/cellspacing is in templates still. You can change the color of info-center cells now for example, without affecting the whole theme.

I expect Messageindex.template to also have 1 table for the topics, but Display should do without any at all. PM center will have one on the top..and so on. Only the spots where its hard to achieve the same effect by using divs, is a table used, and no inline css in them , all columns have its own classes - or share a common one. Also...the stylesheet is divided into smaller bits, each loaded only in the belonging section. So Boardindex loads boardindex.css as well as style.css.

Sounds more complicated than it is really..

[Col]

Hiya Bloc,

Forgive me if way off the mark, but maybe you are thinking with your eyes, and not how it will be used? I would think that what you are aiming for is lists, and the fact that it ain't pretty, is neither here nor there. So long as it's ordred, reliable, can be read by text readers, and those with good sight, if they so disire, that should be all that is required, I would think?

[bloc]

Well, that idea is not directed at accessability as such - as you point out. But as means to make changes to get there it might be helpful.

[westis]

Bloc, that sounds really cool!! Any idea of when it might be available for download?

[bloc]

It will be a while yet.

[Confused Too]

Bloc,
To see how a page will work with a text reader it is a good idea to try www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html and read the instructions.  You have to create a file called delorie.htm in the root of the domain before they will allow you to use it.  Our site www.ndpa.info has such a file so you can view the pages as either they are intended by just going to the site with your browser but look again using the linx browser and you will see a whole lot more not visible to most.  There may have to be some serious discussion about what is needed and get some users who are blind or have other visual disabilities to help our.
The problem is that there are a myriad of problems encountered by people with visual difficulties.  One person I work with has only 20% tunnel vision in one eye and none in the other and most assume he needs a large screen with large text.....  Wrong he now has a 14" screen and tiny text but black text and yellow background.  Others want large text and others couldn't be bothered about the size or colour because they use readers....  Some serious consultation and Beta testing with people who actually experience the problems will be a must.

[bloc]

So basically the theme should have several possible "looks" to really cater for all the different cases?

[Confused Too]

So basically the theme should have several possible "looks" to really cater for all the different cases?

The theme could incorporate many options and be named a Visual Accessability.
It would have to have the ability to vary font size by a click and the layout by means accessable by a screen reader.  One of the options I did work on for an eBlah forum was a row of links at the top linking to the different themes and another was to have a screen reader compatable link which actually used a totally separate code but linked to the same data.  PM me for links as the old e-blah is still there just it is now inaccessible to the public.

[Col]

I would have thought separate themes for sighted, and screen readers would make sense. Those who are sighted my benefit from a different layout to those using a screen reader.

[bloc]

so, the theme would need:

- instant change of fontsize only...
    - how big sizes is needed? What range and font types?

- instant change to pre-defined high-contrast color-sets...
    - which colorsets will work?

- instant change of layout. (Disregard fonts/colors)...
    - what layout is important/easiest to read?
    - what information is needed and what can be left out? 

[Col]

Have you seen Google today. Just apt, I thought.

[Col]

Bloc,

I would think the screen readers would read vertically through the X/HTML. People tend to read horizontally the displayed page. I would think that if this is borne in mind, it should work out OK. Have you tried one of the Accessibility forums?

http://www.accessibilityforum.org/

http://www.accessifyforum.com/

I think they are the main two, but there many others, that may, or may not be relevant.

[Confused Too]

I would think the screen readers would read vertically through the X/HTML. People tend to read horizontally the displayed page.

Col,
Having never used a screen reader I wouldn't know but having read a little about them they will read the HTML and knock out all the markup reducing it to text only and then vocalise the content.  I should imagine it will read exactly as you and I do left to right from the top of the page to the bottom.
Yes I did see the Braille Google and yes very appropriate for this thread.

[Col]

Hi Hutton,

I just mean that we might read the content of the page, different elements, across the page. But, because a screen reader will be reading from the HTML, it will follow that order. Depending upon how the page is laid out for sighted members, if the screen reader was working from that, the screen reader could be going trough the page content in a very unlogical order. For example, if you have a left column, and that appears first in your HTML, but your navigation only appears in the right, main column, the screen reader will have to go through allthe left column's content before giving the site visitor any options, if that column appears first in the HTML! This is why I say that you need two versions of pages, or in most cases anyway, because you must always present options first (internal links mostly), and content second, in the HTML. I'm sure they will be other considerations too.

[bloc]

Using divs placed logically after each other would solve that. For placing them in the page layout you would use css, which screenreaders will ignore I assume.

[Confused Too]

I had the oportunity to hear the forum via a screen reader the other day and unless I was able to see the screen also the forum was almost useless.  It reader detected it was a forum and logging in was not too difficult but the navigation was impossible unless I know the structure of the forum to start with.
I will speak to the person who uses Jaws on Monday and find out how he gets on with the forum and give some feedback here.

[bloc]

yes..good. I assume its the tables that cause trouble, but more pointers would be very helpful.

[Confused Too]

I have spent 20 minutes with the person who uses the computer I borrowed the other day and he was able to create an account and then log into the forum.  It is quite cool as he hears the stuff about 4 times faster than anyone can read.  He also quite quickly worked out how to navigate the forum but his only comment was that the thing he would use would be the show unread posts since last visit more often than the index page as it is very long winded using the normal point and click you or I would use.
He is going to have a play and get back to me with any further comment.

[bloc]

Interesting. So basically he really just need new stuff shown/heard, and not all the repeating items?

[Confused Too]

I have left him to play a little and see what he comes back with.  another irritating thing he says is the profiles as they do not appear with the message and is of little or no use to him at all.  When I described the visual layout to him he was taken aback as it is not what he had in his head.  He did suggest that the table should simply have a new box for each message and maybe a message at the top 'posted by blogs on date and time then straight into the message and a reply button at the bottom.
This would mean that he could simply have the message read over one after the other to the bottom one and no navigating the other bits.  Another thing I thought of is that if the messages are split into 2 3 4 pages they would not be able to navigate that either so maybe an option at the top to show all messages or to jump to the desired page.  Just my thought after speaking to him.