Membergroups Question

[laurieluvsliason]

Hello. Not sure at all if I am in the right place or not. Simple Machines is still so confusing to me, sorry. In my group under MEMBERGROUPS, there is an area with just a question mark, I think it is to set up a moderator group ((I created another one right underneath it called FORUM MODS for mods who take care of specific forums. Where the ? mark is, it seems to be 'empty' in that it won't let me set up said group there. Can this be fixed, so that would be 'useable'? I took a screencap so you can see what I am talking about


The group is located at www.liasonitesgathering.online

[shadav]

that should say Moderator and you can't delete that group just as you can't delete the Administrator group but you can rename them as you have already renamed Administrator to Admin and I'm assuming that you just deleted the Moderator from the name....

if you click on modify does it not open to allow you to rename it?

[laurieluvsliason]

Yes it does open and I have renamed it, but I then can't do anything with it, like add the appropriate mods or modify their permissions...

For instance, I just named it MODERATOR, but the ? is still there & I can't click on it to add mods etc  Can this be 'fixed' on your end?

[shadav]

to modify membergroup permissions
in your admin under members go to permissions > General Permissions
then click modify on the groups that you want to change


hm, I see what you mean though... if you click on any other group name there it does open to show who's in that group and you can add members to that group....
honestly I'm not sure why the moderator one doesn't do that...must be because you have to assign them to the specific boards you want them to moderate

at that point you would go in your admin under Forum to  Boards and Categories > Modify Boards
on the board you want to add a moderator click on modify
you can then add the username to Moderators:
or the membergroup to Moderator Groups:


you can also go to their profiles then under Forum Profile go to Account Settings
from here you can set their Primary Membergroup and their Additional Membergroups
*but moderator is not listed here since you have to add them to the boards that you want them to be able to moderate*

[efk]

(?) The Moderator membergroup is a special membergroup. Permissions and settings assigned to this group apply to moderators but only on the boards they moderate. Outside these boards they're just like any other member.

Moderator (?) - this means local moderator. You set permissions that Moderator should have for Default permission profile.
Then you set Moderator per individual Board (child-boards should be excluded since they are boards on their own).
So Admin/Forum/Boards.../Modify Boards/ select desired board/ and find this - Moderators: with following info - Additional members to have moderation privileges on this board. Note that administrators don't have to be listed here.

Board Moderators are later displayed on Board - see example https://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=114.0

Advanced forum usage and different permissions for board Moderator can be set with a new Permission Profile (Edit Profile from Permissions).

This fully apply to SMF 2.0.x, so behavior for 2.1.x may be different.

[laurieluvsliason]

Ok so now I am fully lost. I have done all of those things already and read everything I am supposed to have read. Coming to you was a last resort. . I have 2 global moderators & 3 forum mods it is the forum mods I was trying to add to this moderator group that is supposedly set up for forum mods. This moderator group  DOES NOT show on their account profiles and neither does it show up in the online list?

[efk]

Ask everything that is confusing to you. Board Moderator can be seen only inside board, he will have Moderator displayed on that board, or more if you visit more boards in "Admin/Forum/Boards.../Modify Boards/ select desired board" to add him to more boards.

Search through my older posts, you will find more info and practical advises. Of course I have to mention again that I'm SMF 2.0.x user and not 2.1.x, so something might be different.

[laurieluvsliason]

So my member groups are in the attachments

In order for me to activate the member group that was designed for moderators, would I need to delete my forum mods or my global mods and their permissions that are all set up for them (because I created new groups) and re-ad them to that group? I do believe I tried that once and the group still didn't show up on their profiles OR in the online list


So my question comes back to is there something wrong with that members group on my board that needs to be fixed by you techies?

[GigaWatt]

Hm... shooting in the dark here, but you might've messed something up when you tried to change the name of the local mods (Moderators, global mods are Global Moderators).

OK, I think I'm not getting what's happening when you're trying to change the name of the Moderators membergroup. What happens when you click on Modify and enter something in the Group name field?

Why is there a group named "Newby" when you've got post count based groups?

[laurieluvsliason]

When I click MODIFY, in the ? mark member group I can change the name of the group and put in amount of stars & color in online status etc....but it doesn't do anything. Doesn't show up in the online stats aor profiles so I can add members. I can change permissions for them, but what good does it do when I can't add members. I have tried everywhich way

Oh and I only have newby as a member group so they show in the online stats, I actually have 42 NEWBYS but I check the online stats from work (I work evenings) and I just like to know who is online. I guess I could delete the member group and newbys and just go with post based groups lol

[laurieluvsliason]

 :

So I deleted the member group and the newbys group and the post based groups still don't show in the online stats. Kinda frustrating

[laurieluvsliason]

Of course, it doesn't help that the visibility option is not available for post based groups apparently 

[shawnb61]

The moderator group is a special SMF group.  The (?) takes you to help text that explains the scope of the settings made there. 

You add & remove folks from the moderator group by making them moderators.  You don't add them to the group directly like other groups.

Behavior on 2.0 & 2.1 are largely the same.

I don't know why name changes aren't showing up - I cannot reproduce that.  My first wild guess is caching (the all-purpose bogeyman...).  I would see if disabling caching makes a difference. 

[shawnb61]

The post-based groups are dynamic - based on post count.  You can't add or remove members there either - it's automatic based on post count.  This is done in addition to any other groups you have setup. 

What stats are you trying to display? 

[Illori]

:

So I deleted the member group and the newbys group and the post based groups still don't show in the online stats. Kinda frustrating

post count based groups will not show in the group legend. only primary groups that are not the regular member group will show.

[shadav]

other thing is when you created or edited the membergroups did you set them as visible, visible - apart from in group key, or invisible?
make sure that the visible setting is set to visible

not sure but I remember reading somewhere that you have to put a color in the groups for them to be displayed on the group key

[nevermind] illori posted while I was looking into it...go with illori

[Kindred]

If you somehow delete moderators or newbies as groups, your forum will be broken.  Every guest will be an admin.

Don't do it

[efk]

So I deleted the member group and the newbys group and the post based groups still don't show in the online stats. Kinda frustrating

If Your forum is Post based forum, then you need 1 default Post based forum with 0 posts so new user can register.

Also your forum version is 2.0.17 on footer. Have you checked your forum version?

[GigaWatt]

The post-based groups are dynamic - based on post count.  You can't add or remove members there either - it's automatic based on post count.  This is done in addition to any other groups you have setup.

Also, just to clarify, if you enable post count based groups (I think they're enabled by default, with a clean install), every registered member that is not in the special groups (admins, mods, global mods) or any other predefined groups (let's say "RIP", for members that have passed away) are automatically put in the post count based group.

If you somehow delete moderators or newbies as groups, your forum will be broken.  Every guest will be an admin.

I thought that Member was the default member group and is converted to a post count based group if you enable post count based groups .

And this is a question on my end. Could there be more than just one post count based group?

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

And this is a question on my end. Could there be more than just one post count based group?

Regular member is a group that everyone belongs to, unless they have a set different primary member group (For example Global Moderator). So that group is the "baseline".
On top of that, you can create as many post count based groups as you want, but they are designed so that any member can only be in one of them at a time.

[GigaWatt]

On top of that, you can create as many post count based groups as you want, but they are designed so that any member can only be in one of them at a time.

OK, I get that... and by default, when they register, they're a member of any default group that I set, regardless if it's a post count based group or not. So, let's say I set another post count based group "Special Members" and let's say that "Members" is the default member group and is also a post count group. So, if someone registers, they're in "Members" by default, but if I want them to be in "Special Members", I'd have to manually add them in that group, correct?

[Illori]

if "special members" is a post count based group, you cannot manually add them directly to the group. you would have to modify their post count.

[GigaWatt]

So... how does one become a member of "Special Members" if it's not the default post count based group .

I didn't say this before, but let's say that "Members" and "Special Members" both have the same thresholds for posts, the only thing that differs is the titles of the post count.

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

A newly registered member belongs to 2 groups.
Regular member, and 0 post count group.
Any other groups must be manually added as primary, or secondary, and for this you cannot use post count groups.

[GigaWatt]

Any other groups must be manually added as primary, or secondary, and for this you cannot use post count groups.

Aha, I think I got it not .

So, basically, even if I added that second "Special Members" post count based group and even if post thresholds are the same, just with different titles, I can't add anyone to it, it'll just stay empty, correct?

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

Haven't actually tried - But I'm doubtful you could create 2 post count groups with the same threshold.

[GigaWatt]

Haven't actually tried - But I'm doubtful you could create 2 post count groups with the same threshold.

Hm... might try it on my test forum .

In any case, moving on . Sorry for hijacking the thread a tad .

[laurieluvsliason]

So, I have done everything as I was supposed to. I took my Forum Mods out of the boards they moderate,  and made them MEMBERS by their profiles and deleted the group I created for FORUM MODS. Added them all back in by board and profile. STILL NOTHING. I can not make the forum mods on their profiles even though I reinstated them on their own boards. The group FORUM MODS just doesn't show up in the profiles. I give up, this MODERATOR group just doesn't work properly!!

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

So, I have done everything as I was supposed to. I took my Forum Mods out of the boards they moderate,  and made them MEMBERS by their profiles and deleted the group I created for FORUM MODS. Added them all back in by board and profile. STILL NOTHING. I can not make the forum mods on their profiles even though I reinstated them on their own boards. The group FORUM MODS just doesn't show up in the profiles. I give up, this MODERATOR group just doesn't work properly!!

No, you can't. It's by design. Since they are moderators only on certain boards, the moderator title is only shown in those boards when they post.
And you have now mixed those 2 groups, your Forum Mods group is actually Board Moderators, and your Board Mods are actually global moderators...

EDIT: also, regular members don't need a separate membergroup created - When you do create a "members" group and place people in there, they are no longer "regular members".

EDIT2: Attached are the default groups, for you to compare to your own.

[laurieluvsliason]

Well how do I get them to show up in the online stats, if I don't create a member group then? I would prefer the post based groups showed up instead, but that doesn't seem to be happenng so I have to with a member group then...also...will the forum mods show up in the online list in the colour they are supposed to, since the online list doesn't seem to be recognising them either?

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

You can, if you want - It wasn't really designed that way, but you can do it:
Create a "Local Moderators" group, with inherited permissions from "regular members".
Put this group as the primary group for your local moderators. It will show in their profiles, but will not grant any extra permissions.
Then define your Original Moderator group with the permissions you wish to allow your local moderators in the boards they moderate.
Done. Do note: This will be misleading for users, they will show up as "Local Moderators" on every board from now on, but only have permissions in the boards they do moderate.

The users online legend only shows primary groups, like Admin, Global moderator and so on.

[laurieluvsliason]

Alright, thank yu so much. Wish this was told to me way back after my very first post!

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

I would still honestly recommend against it, because this setup is really truly confusing for your users.

[laurieluvsliason]

So, really I am no farther ahead and still can't use that group set up for moderators, lol. I am back to another newly created group for FORUM (LOCAL MODS). Which is exactly what was happening to start with...Too funny!

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

Let me explain the logic a bit

"Regular" groups:
- Admin (?), A special membergroup with permissions for everything. Pretty basic stuff. No need to explain much I hope.
- Global moderator, A custom membergroup with moderating powers everywhere they can access. Can be removed, renamed, used as primary group or secondary (hidden) group, what ever.
- Moderator (?), A special PERMISSIONgroup, defines local permissions for moderators that are set to moderate single boards, also defines the profile's title and star images to be shown inside the moderated boards ONLY. This group can not be removed. This group can not be assigned to anyone, and so does not show in the membergroup legend. It is designed to be this way. If you need someone to show as a moderator everywhere, use the Global Moderators group.
- regular members, a special PERMISSIONgroup that can not be deleted, and does not affect the profiles of the users. Only affects users who do not belong to any of the other groups above.

Post count groups:
Groups that are assigned automatically to users, based on their post counts. These can be used to change the titles, star images or permissions for regular members based on how many posts they have made. Using these is basically optional, and you can delete some of them or create more of them. You can not manually assign these to anyone, and these are not shown in the membergroup legend.

[Kindred]

So, really I am no farther ahead and still can't use that group set up for moderators, lol.

What exactly do you mean  "still can't use that group set up for moderators," ??

local moderators (as opposed to global mods) are ONLY a moderator when they are actually IN the board that they moderate.
When they make a post in that board, the moderator badge will display IN THAT BOARD ONLY. The moderator badge will N OT display on any other board and they will not be listed in the "all groups" legend...  because they are ONLY moderators when they are actually INSIDE the board that the moderate.

If you create a "local moderators" extra group and assign it as their PRIMARY group, then it will display their moderator badge EVERYWHERE.
If you create a "local moderators" extra group and assign it as their SECONDARY group, then it will never display that badge -- because only the PRIMARY group displays.

If you have activated post-count based groups, then, in addition to their normal group title, they will also have a post count group title. HOWEVER the post-count BADGE will not be displayed if they have ANY PRIMARY GROUP....
<----- see my mini-profile to the left...   
I have my unique title (The Mean One)
I have my team title [primary group] (Support Specialist)
I have my Post-count title (SMF Legend)
I have my PRIMARY GROUP badge (Green/Support)

I have several secondary groups.  None of those (titles or badges) are displayed

[laurieluvsliason]

Ok, so YOU will understand better what I am trying to say here, is the MODERATOR group that I really wanted to use is useless to me, because I want my group members to see the difference between BOARD (global mods) and FORUM (local mods) Local mods just govern their own fan fiction forums. I had it right to begin with I guess. I want the local forum mods to show in the group keys and in their forums. The board mods are also in the group key. Members can tell by their different colours which are BOARD & which are LOCAL. Their post based group name also shows in their profiles & on the board. So all I was trying to do was use the (?) moderator group for the local group like it was intended for local mods. But apparently, I can't, because they won't show in the group key with their own colour so members know when local mods are online by looking at the board index. The local mods also don't show in the member list on profiles to make them a moderator. I do understand that is done by the board settings.  Thanks so much for everyone that tried to help, but it seems I had it right all along and the only way to get it to appear as I wanted was to create the extra mod group & set their permissions accordingly. Everyone can also tell who is in the group NEWBYS & MEMBERS because they need to be a full member with 25 posts to read the fan fiction for which I need the local mods

Thank you & goodnight!



Admins: (Bosses) @slizzie1986(Sonja)  @Laurie and  @LGOStaff

Global (Board) Moderators: (2) @Dollbaby @trini12180

Forum (Local) Moderators: (Forum Bosses Of FF OR allowed into Staff Forum): @Charliee45 @RJackson  @chyyyone


Partial (Registration Not Complete): 0 posts

Newbie: 1-24 posts

Biker: 25-50 posts

Artist: 51-99 posts

Pool Shark: 100-249 posts

Rain Dancer: 250-599 posts

Enforcer: 600-999 posts

Nurse: 1000- 1499 posts

Dreamer: 1500-2499 posts

Diehard Obsessive 2500+posts

[efk]

Ok, so YOU will understand better what I am trying to say here, is the MODERATOR group that I really wanted to use is useless to me, because I want my group members to see the difference between BOARD (global mods) and FORUM (local mods) Local mods just govern their own fan fiction forums. I had it right to begin with I guess. I want the local forum mods to show in the group keys and in their forums. The board mods are also in the group key. Members can tell by their different colours which are BOARD & which are LOCAL. Their post based group name also shows in their profiles & on the board. So all I was trying to do was use the (?) moderator group for the local group like it was intended for local mods. But apparently, I can't, because they won't show in the group key with their own colour so members know when local mods are online by looking at the board index. The local mods also don't show in the member list on profiles to make them a moderator. I do understand that is done by the board settings.  Thanks so much for everyone that tried to help, but it seems I had it right all along and the only way to get it to appear as I wanted was to create the extra mod group & set their permissions accordingly. Everyone can also tell who is in the group NEWBYS & MEMBERS because they need to be a full member with 25 posts to read the fan fiction for which I need the local mods

Thank you & goodnight!



Admins: (Bosses) @slizzie1986(Sonja)  @Laurie and  @LGOStaff

Global (Board) Moderators: (2) @Dollbaby @trini12180

Forum (Local) Moderators: (Forum Bosses Of FF OR allowed into Staff Forum): @Charliee45 @RJackson  @chyyyone

If you still need help with whatever you are trying to do I can help you with cleaning that mess. You are confusing everyone and you are confused as well. I can check and compare with my forum options what you have done with your forum options and set you desired system. Send me personal message and we can make it.

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

That essentially seems to be this:

You can, if you want - It wasn't really designed that way, but you can do it:
Create a "Local Moderators" group, with inherited permissions from "regular members".
Put this group as the primary group for your local moderators. It will show in their profiles, but will not grant any extra permissions.
Then define your Original Moderator group with the permissions you wish to allow your local moderators in the boards they moderate.
Done. Do note: This will be misleading for users, they will show up as "Local Moderators" on every board from now on, but only have permissions in the boards they do moderate.

The users online legend only shows primary groups, like Admin, Global moderator and so on.

The problem with this is, that if you use the "Forum (Local) Moderators" group to define permissions, by default those permissions are in effect on the whole forum, and the members in this group will be seen as moderators on every board they post to. This is why the default moderator group only changes the title, images and permissions on boards where the member actually is set as a moderator. To avoid confusion, and to make it clear who moderates what.

[GigaWatt]

Ok, so YOU will understand better what I am trying to say here, is the MODERATOR group that I really wanted to use is useless to me, because I want my group members to see the difference between BOARD (global mods) and FORUM (local mods).

You're mixing terms. You have a forum, right? So, if someone moderates this whole forum, than this person is a Forum Moderator (Global moderator in SMF, but call it however you like). You can make different boards on your forum, right? So, if someone moderates just a single board or a group of boards, they're Board Moderators (just Moderators in SMF, but once again, call them however you like).

My point is, you're ranking them in reverse order. Board Moderators are below in rank compared to Forum Moderators.

You are confusing everyone and you are confused as well.

The problem is, he's/she's mixing terms. From what I've gathered, he/she thinks that a "board" is a forum, and a "forum" is a board... it's the other way around.

This is what happens when people call forums "boards" . Different software solutions use different terms and some commercial (paid) solutions actually call the whole forum "a board" ... which is completely illogical if you ask me .

[laurieluvsliason]

Ok, so YOU will understand better what I am trying to say here, is the MODERATOR group that I really wanted to use is useless to me, because I want my group members to see the difference between BOARD (global mods) and FORUM (local mods) Local mods just govern their own fan fiction forums. I had it right to begin with I guess. I want the local forum mods to show in the group keys and in their forums. The board mods are also in the group key. Members can tell by their different colours which are BOARD & which are LOCAL. Their post based group name also shows in their profiles & on the board. So all I was trying to do was use the (?) moderator group for the local group like it was intended for local mods. But apparently, I can't, because they won't show in the group key with their own colour so members know when local mods are online by looking at the board index. The local mods also don't show in the member list on profiles to make them a moderator. I do understand that is done by the board settings.  Thanks so much for everyone that tried to help, but it seems I had it right all along and the only way to get it to appear as I wanted was to create the extra mod group & set their permissions accordingly. Everyone can also tell who is in the group NEWBYS & MEMBERS because they need to be a full member with 25 posts to read the fan fiction for which I need the local mods

Thank you & goodnight!



Admins: (Bosses) @slizzie1986(Sonja)  @Laurie and  @LGOStaff

Global (Board) Moderators: (2) @Dollbaby @trini12180

Forum (Local) Moderators: (Forum Bosses Of FF OR allowed into Staff Forum): @Charliee45 @RJackson  @chyyyone

If you still need help with whatever you are trying to do I can help you with cleaning that mess. You are confusing everyone and you are confused as well. I can check and compare with my forum options what you have done with your forum options and set you desired system. Send me personal message and we can make it.

I PM'd you, efk & thanks. Too many people here offering well-meaning advice, it's easier if I stick to 1 person!


The terms Global, Board, Forum etc come from years and years of being bounced from Ez Board to Yuku to Proboards to TapaTalk etc lol!  Every forum type has a slightly different variation, it seems lol