Mods Concerns

[SaltedWeb]

First let me say SMF rocks. its the best portal system ive ever used.
Php cant hold a candle to SMF. I am so pleased with how this works !

In my thoughts, I have one at least everyday whether I need to or not.....
I was thinking would be a good idea to not only to warn about the mods we install.
But the themes more importantly.

I installed 7dana and made a few modification side bars and such.

But I didnt find out until later that 90% of the cool mods dont install in the Package Manager on most themes, I mean they install but usually with a pain in a butt bug some where due to the theme not the SMF.
So then a newbie ( me ) has to try and manually install this some how.
I dont think SMF should even allow themes listed on here as it very confusing to know this will be a problemn later on down the line.

Now I am in the precarious position of knowing SMF is going to have a great update soon.
So do I stay with my Limited theme, Go back to a default now  and modify that. Or wait until a release comes along and go back to scratch.

Looking at many many posts, most have to do with ppl trying to apply a mod to a non smf default theme.
Seems the SMF team would spend less time having to support this if they chose not to allow themes unless the makers supported it.
The way it is now, the mod designers are supporting other designers themes. Doesnt seem really fair to have Mod designers tripping over
1000 variables to try and fix another persons theme to work.
After all making a theme is a peace of cake compared to making a mod.

I am sure most wont agree with this, just seems kinda funny to have something here, that if we use it could cause a hassle.

Kinda like using a 22 caliber rifle, but trying to cram 357 shells into it.
Yes....  you probably could do it, I know a few of you may have even tried thois after a six pack,  but would  ya really want to if you were sober.

hehe


Paul

[redone]

I look at this way, adding buttons etc, mod's, theme's are all part of building something different for your users. I doubt you will ever find a package manger that will process every possible combiniation of mod's and theme's.

[SaltedWeb]

Hi,

Yes infact ive read that same thought from other that posted .

My point was that, its not really clear about Themes and their vulnerability.
I think most know, mods wont work in every situation with themes.
But they generally do with default was my point.
I think that themes shouldnt be put out as a great addition when infact they are the main reason mods dont work ,
in "Almost" every situation 

Dont get me wrong the devlopers are great and they make great things and have wonderful Idea. ( I praise them all greatly)
But when ppl are using mods more then themes. Some where theres a flaw in that, if they dont play well toegther.

Paul

[bloc]

Themes are an integral part of SMF. The whole script is designed to save and extract data , and present them in the form of templates. Mods are hacks. Plain and simple. Not bad in any way, but still..hacks of the code. Templates will not touch the core at all, it just take what is given.
Themes are powerful in SMF, so powerful that themes/mods can almost be the same. You can have a theme that do things a mod could do, in fact some mods just modify template files...

So this is not a question of whether we should allow themes here that do not work with mods( and btw WHICH mods? a theme that will support ALL is just not realistic. And who is to say one mod is not as important as another? ), its more of what we can help out with to get it to work. But there is always going to be "fiddling" to get it to work together.

You could say I am biased , that I am on "themes" side , but I also do mods...Problem as I see it is that you can't please all. We have a superb theme engine, a splendid system of modifications and upgrading(package manager) , but making sure every mod work with every theme means putting limitations on those systems. A step backward.

On the other hand the developers have already been thinking around these issues, so maybe we will see some improvement there too in the future.

[SaltedWeb]

 
I would have to agree, on almost everything you said.

But myself not being part of a designer of any code or modifications.
themes at SMF, ( wish I had this vast knowledge as smf is just to cool)
I Have the benifit of driving the car while not actually manufacturing it.

My point was that if I use this car, I should be told would one think
To choose wisely when choosing how to power your engine.
After all a Corvette persay, its says use 92+ octane gas.
And warns against using any lower grade. 
My point was where is this written that Mods are hacks ? and themes are the work of the gods  hehe!

That was my only true point to the thought, just say:
HEY  Dude, dont do that , we mean really really think about it before you do it was the thought.

Thanks for the reponses, and insight. It helps me see a perspective I didnt see before on this.

Paul

[bloc]

I understand. Its one of the things all developers think about, being it mods/code or themes - how to make it look good to the ones using it. That mods are "hacks" is in fact the truth..since mods don't come with the script, and modifies core code, its essentially that. But thats just a name..albeit a negative one. "Mods" sounds much better..

Regarding you car allegory, you are in fact driving your car with the right fuel when you first install it..more themes mean actually just changing the interior, maybe some styling here and there, new seats etc.. Some themes that do a lot, can influence your driving even - making it a worse or better experience, but mostly they are just "accessories". The engine still run well on its own. But mods are more like engine adjustments, influencing a tiny bit or large part of that, and perhaps directly influencing your driving experience. ... ( )

[A.M.A]

Well said Bloc .. I like the car comparison.

[drhamad]

With EVERY piece of forum software I've ever used, only the default theme is supported.  SMF is no different in this.  Mods may or may not work for other themes, but they are sure to work with the default one.  The more you change things (including the theme) the less likely that every bit of the mod will work without modification.  Make no mistake, if you run a forum for any length of time and of any complexity, you WILL need to get your hands dirty with code.  You won't have to become a master of it or anything like that, but you will need a general understanding of it.

If you wish to remain totally oblivious to the code underlying the site, run as close to default settings as you possibly can.

[afterglow]

this is a very interesting topic as i've just installed a mod using the package manager for
the first time. the install was successful but i noticed that i modified only the default theme.
can the package manager be made to recognize what theme is currently being used as the
forum's default and not the SMF Default Theme so it modifies what it sees as forum's skin?
sorry if i'm asking too much but i guess it would be confusing to some installing mods for the
first time thinking they have already done successfully only to find out they still have to modify
their templates. 

anyway, i love the way SMF is designed. it's almost like the perl-based YaBB board that i've
used for 4 years.  i like the permission system here too.

keep going guys!

regards,
afterglow

[Mystica]

the thing is simply that the mods search for a certain part of the code of a theme and modify it (to show new buttons, to align things differently, to add an info box somewhere, etc. depending on what exactly the mod does). all mods are written for the default theme's code for obvious reasons. you can't expect for a mod author to go through all available themes and see what the code looks like in there and to write the adjustments for that whenever they make a mod. on the other hand you can't expect a theme author to do the same for every mod either (especially since not everyone uses every mod and you can't incorporate the mod's code in the theme if the mod isn't even being used). but as far as i've seen, both, mod authors and theme authors, are more than willing to help with this. also, A.M.A has written a little tutorial on how to make mods work with themes. so it's pretty easy to find a solution for this and to make a mod work with any theme you like.

[[Unknown]]

Arguments like these always seem very wishy-washy; I remember when I helped an administrator of a vBulletin forum, a while ago, and installed "hacks" for him.  People act as if vBulletin did the skins for me automatically.

-[Unknown]

[redone]

I used to have the same concerns till I spent some understanding SMF a little more. Truth is that there are so many different combinations that can be used in a forum its an impossible task to create something that can simply mod everything for you.

With so many theme's being released every day it makes it impossible. Besides which most forums generally stick with one or two themes anyway. I had at one point over 40 themes in my forum and do you know which one got used the most? Default!

I think the bottomline is if you create a big monster then you had better learn how to take care of it!

[SaltedWeb]

Hello,

Great Responses.
Being a newbie to SMF . I appreciate many points given here.

I think basically the point I am getting is that everyone that uses a new softare should view it as  newb.
I think many of us switched from PHPbb. And feel spoiled here as Smf is so .... so very superior to Phpbb.

I think that with this rush to grab hold of this outstanding resources you guys have given us.
We are taking everything here at face value,
And not grasping that with having this great advancement there are variables. ( I am not saying limitations. ) moreover Variables that will affect its use.  The key being Modifying the code or script for lack of a better word.

My advice would be as a Newb, to other newbs.
Enjoy Smf, use it to the farthest of its abilities.
And if you chose for any reason what so ever to change the default settings. Take note to make sure each mod and each theme you chose to modify its use is done with great care and considerations.
And to understand, whats fits in a default may not fit else where.
In other words Mods and Themes are not one size fits all.
No matter how cool they are.
And we should view them as such and will be much happier.


Paul

[rudoka]

the thing is simply that the mods search for a certain part of the code of a theme and modify it (to show new buttons, to align things differently, to add an info box somewhere, etc. depending on what exactly the mod does). all mods are written for the default theme's code for obvious reasons. you can't expect for a mod author to go through all available themes and see what the code looks like in there and to write the adjustments for that whenever they make a mod. on the other hand you can't expect a theme author to do the same for every mod either (especially since not everyone uses every mod and you can't incorporate the mod's code in the theme if the mod isn't even being used). but as far as i've seen, both, mod authors and theme authors, are more than willing to help with this. also, A.M.A has written a little tutorial on how to make mods work with themes. so it's pretty easy to find a solution for this and to make a mod work with any theme you like.

   Hi folks, I was thinking about this subjects lately, and here are my thoughts on this.
   
   I just finished to write my very first mod (maybe some of you know already;)), and I having exactly the issue with mods and themes needing to work together. My mod is absolutely useless without the necessary modification in the theme. It works, no problemo, only that you won't see no difference at all.
   I solved this by creating a theme specifically for this mod. Based on the default, of course. This gets installed with the mod, and people can chose to use that theme to use the feature added by the mod.
   As I said, this is based on the default forum, and if someone likes the default 'look' there are no problems.

   But what if someone wants to use it's own theme, or download a different theme? That one wouldn't work anymore. So, as a solution I inserted some coments in my template files, exactly for the people to understand what they have to change to make my mod work.

Something like this:

Code Select Expand

//Modified by REPLYTO ***********
//Add the first line in 'echo' to get the reply button at every post
if ($context['can_reply'] && !empty($options['display_quick_reply']))
echo '
<a href="', $scripturl, '?action=post;topic=', $context['current_topic'], '.', $context['start'], ';num_replies=', $context['num_replies'], ';in_reply=', ($message['member']['name']), ';post_id=', ($message['id']), '">', ($settings['use_image_buttons'] ? '<img src="' . $settings['images_url'] . '/' . $context['user']['language'] . '/replyto.gif" alt="' . $txt[146] . '" border="0" />' : $txt[146]), '</a>
<a href="', $scripturl, '?action=post;quote=', $message['id'], ';topic=', $context['current_topic'], '.', $context['start'], ';num_replies=', $context['num_replies'], ';sesc=', $context['session_id'], '" onclick="if (!currentSwap) doQuote(', $message['id'], '); else window.location.href = this.href; return false;">', ($settings['use_image_buttons'] ? '<img src="' . $settings['images_url'] . '/' . $context['user']['language'] . '/quote.gif" alt="' . $txt[145] . '" border="0" />' : $txt[145]), '</a>';'

Obviously the default theme (and most probably every other theme will have only one line there), so what needs to be done is to take that first line from my theme and insert it in the desired one in the same spot.  Luckily there are few things changed in the template, so in my case the adaptation of the themes is quite easy. For someone who has juuust a liiiitle exprience in themeing and modding (SMF in general) will be no problem.

But I'm not trying to get technical here.
   My point is that using this solution everyone could use the mod's functionality with any theme he/she desires without too much troubles. In my opinion the mod developers should write their mod based on the default theme (as I think everyone does already), but also include some explanations on what they added/replaced in the theme. Just enough for the common user to understand it. Of course I do intend to 'warn' the people about the themes issue, and 'notify' them that they can change their own themes if they wish.  Of course, for the people should read the readme! (something I usually skip )

   As a last thing, there is always another option for the common users(if everything else fails!). They can contact the developer of a mod in order to ask assistence.
   For example, if someone sends me the exact theme(zipped) they want to use, I would be glad to modify that theme and send it back to them. As my time permits, but I would surely try to help out the folks out there.

Rudolf