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Author Topic: MOD Site?  (Read 58098 times)

Offline mephisto_kur

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2003, 05:34:23 PM »
The intention isn't to limit MOD writers (and we haven't done any changes yet) it's to make sure that the MOD writers and developers are protected.

Why should all these people work so many hours to have their work stolen and have to go through all this stress? it's deeply annoying.

Oh trust me, I agree.

I just worry that in an effort to protect the mod writers you are taking on ownership of those mods, yourself.  Why should you take on the legal responsibility of protecting my code if I specifically don't want you to?
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Offline Jeff Lewis

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2003, 05:38:59 PM »
I never ONCE said anywhere that we were taking ownership of MODS, I said it was being discussed to tighten up the license to prevent things like SuperMOD in the future without our permission first.

Never ONCE have I ever said that about MODs.

Why is it that everyone needs to pick at negative things? ;)

Things should hum along at the same rate as before.

We offered three options for MOD authors at SE, if they want to release it as GPL then so be it.

Offline David

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2003, 05:39:28 PM »
When a mod author submits a mod for download they will have the option to choose what license they wish for it to be under.  Downloaders will then have to agree to the license before they download it.  Authors will be able to choose from a variety of open source licenses, public domain, one that our lawyer writes, as well as typing their own.

We cannot control your mod with the SMF license, only can set limitations on how SMF can be redistributed.
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Offline Haase

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2003, 05:52:32 PM »
I'd just like to tag on with some more info on Mod compatibility.  The "editing SQL" piece mentioned up above is a very good sample.

Another thing I see, although not so much recently, but in older mods, is something like this:
Code: [Select]
<search for>
global $txt, $settings, $db_prefix;
</search for>

<replace>
global $txt, $settings, $db_prefix, $modsettings;
</replace>

This really shuts out any other mods to that particular function.  Instead, MOD developers should use:
Code: [Select]
<search for>
global $txt, $settings, $db_prefix;
</search for>

<add after>
//additional globals added for the new cool mod I built
global $modsettings;
</add after>

And as far as I'm concerned, the comment tag is NOT optional.
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Offline Joshua Dickerson

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2003, 05:55:17 PM »
SMF has comments almost everywhere so mods should be written to search for a comment and not a block of code. This is how mods are supposed to be written now anyway but people don't seem to do this. The mod team is going to come up with more documentation on how mods should be written. The guidelines would have to be followed (to some extent) to get the mod officially approved. Unapproved mods will still be in the mod site, but there will be a big fat warning for the downloader.
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Offline Metho

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2003, 06:36:35 PM »
This thread has gotten pretty weird...kinda like a mass panic about modding...pretty funny actually.

First off, I don't believe anything was said about SMF taking mod rights from us...I just don't see it anywhere. They said they're going to try to PREVENT another Supermod from happening. They trying to limit someone's ability to collect a lot of mods, package them, install them on a fresh board, and distribute SMF as a seperate version. *shrug*

Secondly...as for a "official" SMF Supermod offshoot, one done by people on the dev team (or a seperate approved dev team)...just doesn't sound all that great to me. I'm fully aware that a lot of people don't know the first thing about php/mysql (I didn't till 3 months ago, either), but...you guys haven't even seen the new system yet. Why not give it a chance before trying to replace it, eh? On another thread on this very board, Jeff recognized that the Completed Mods board on the other site was a mess - something that I agree with. It was messy and unorganized...but then again it was practically just managed by all of the mod creators. :p It sounds like BigP and his team (has a team?) are putting a lot of effort into streamlining this system and making it more accessible...I'm just saying wait and see and take a looksie at what they've cooked up for us before spilling the soup all over the persian rug.

Thirdly, as far as mods that add stuff to the ends of statements and put the semi colon in new place (or other similiar things), this is kind of the responsibility of the authors, but as it was said earlier in this thread, it sounds like the people who head the mod team will be checking for security/compatibility of things. I myself am guilty of stuff like that, mostly because I mod on the go on my own forum, and I just keep attaching global variables to it. Though this doesn't make it impossible.

Fourth and last....one must also remember the mindset that you should always have when modding...you're changing code, things can go wrong - terribly wrong, depending on what you do. Always back up. If something goes wrong, immediantly reupload the backup and go see what you did wrong while allowing people to continue to use your site. This is basic knowledge that ANYONE installing mods should have and it doesn't require a lot of computer knowledge. Just be file smart and you should be ok. :D

Lots of ranting, oh well, ignore it. :)

Methonis
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Offline [Unknown]

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2003, 07:38:51 PM »
Grudge, the third thing I worked on with SMF was making all queries like that.  They now all are... there is NO single line query in all the sources.

I was actually the one who gave this idea partially because of my constant miscommunications and problems with the current author.  The idea is a "SMF Max" version that would simply have more features built into it... Kind of like MySQL has a max edition.  (very roughly like.)

It would still be free... there would be freedom.  And, every mod would be formally included into the package, with the permission of the mod author.  Care owuld be taken to smoothly integrate the mod in - even to the point of slight reprogramming - such that it would work well with others.

But.. we haven't decided and we still may not do it.

Mephisto_kur, WE OWN ALL THE MODS.  Legally, we do... any derivative work is the sole property of the derived work in question.  But, we would still respect the author's wishes.  We also DO have the legal responsibility of protecting the mods as... we own them.

Sorry, it's the sad truth.  Fan art, fan fiction - all owned by the original work's creator.  You sell the fan work, and they can SUE THE PANTS off you.

However, like Jeff Lewis said here - we want to make sure that the license SMF is released under allows the mod writers to have the rights they really should over the mods.  And we will try to assure that.  We don't want to have to own them, that's only LEGALLY the case.

If you don't believe me, ask a lawyer who specializes in copyright law or read international copyright law.  If you haven't done that then you can't say I'm wrong because I have.

David... sorta wrong there.  We can control the mod, and we can control how things are distributed.

Haase, there were some mod writing guidelines at some point that covered exactly that.

Metho, I agree.  Mass panic.  It happens, sadly.  But.. you don't have any rights really unless we give them to you... which we plan to.  But, I agree mostly with most of what you said.

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Offline mephisto_kur

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2003, 09:12:46 PM »
I never ONCE said anywhere that we were taking ownership of MODS, I said it was being discussed to tighten up the license to prevent things like SuperMOD in the future without our permission first.

Never ONCE have I ever said that about MODs.

Why is it that everyone needs to pick at negative things? ;)

Things should hum along at the same rate as before.

We offered three options for MOD authors at SE, if they want to release it as GPL then so be it.

Whoa.  I didn't say you were.  I was just trying to push for real clarification (which David gives a post or two below the quoted one).  The TOS on the current YSE site does suggest that you are not allowed to do anything with a mod (besides download and install it) without contacting the mod author, or the YSE (soon to be SMF) team.  I just don't think you guys should take on that responsibility.  As long as I can use the GPL, as David says, I will gladly throw my (meager offerings) mods to the community.  But I want others to be able to build on what I did, tweak it and hand it back with improvements.

Jeff, we occasionally seem to be at each other throats.  I don't understand this.  I know I can be persistent, but I have never attacked you.  My wording may be a bit blunt at times, but please take it the way it is meant - analytical, not personal.
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Offline [Unknown]

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2003, 09:28:55 PM »
No one here is at anyone elses throats.... where's Joseph Fung's topic again?

-[Unknown]

Offline Haase

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2003, 09:34:17 PM »
Quote
I will gladly throw my (meager offerings) mods to the community.  But I want others to be able to build on what I did, tweak it and hand it back with improvements.

Amen to that.  But that's precisely why I want someone to contact me if they're going to change to code.  If they are going to make it better, I need to understand what they did so that I, myself, can become a better coder.  If they just take the code and enhance without letting me know about it...  then I loose that opportunity.  But, in truth, as long as there's something that will prevent someone else from making monetary gain from my hard work, I'm fine.

Quote
Jeff, we occasionally seem to be at each other throats.  I don't understand this.  I know I can be persistent, but I have never attacked you.  My wording may be a bit blunt at times, but please take it the way it is meant - analytical, not personal.

I'm sure Jeff understands.  He might not have the same passion for debate as you (or I), but I think he gets it.  I don't think you're being overly offensive, and anyway it's the people who counter by being overly defensive that contribute to the downward spiral.

I think everyone's okay.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2003, 09:34:55 PM by Haase »
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Offline Jeff Lewis

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2003, 09:52:50 PM »
I just get annoyed and then sometimes my replies aren't as well thought out as I should make them.

You know when people complain and complain and are never happy? (not saying you guys at all) That's happened a ot lately and it's annoying (again not you guys).

We're trying to turn this into something big, something bold, something we can all be proud of :)

Offline Haase

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2003, 11:54:51 PM »
I just get annoyed and then sometimes my replies aren't as well thought out as I should make them.

You know, if I could get what's on my mind to come out of my mouth correctly, or through the keyboard correctly, I'd probably reduce the number of arguments I get into to about 25%   :-\
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Offline Jeff Lewis

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2003, 12:01:02 AM »
Like I said, I don't mean you guys ;)

Offline mysterious

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2003, 12:25:07 AM »
You know when people complain and complain and are never happy?

Anyone who runs a forum knows exactly what you're saying. ;)

I find that the best way to relieve that sort of stress is to fantasize painful deaths for the biggest complainers and then share the scenarios with the people who work on the forum with me. It works for us.  ;D

And BTW, I'm really impressed with what I've seen so far of SMF.

Offline Jeff Lewis

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2003, 12:35:10 AM »
Great stuff! Thanks for the tip too! ;)

Offline mephisto_kur

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2003, 12:41:34 AM »
Oh, great.  Now there's going to be a "Kill Mephisto_kur" Easter Egg flash game or something.
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Offline Jeff Lewis

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2003, 12:43:35 AM »
;) You're hardly the orst of the bunch  :P At least you mean well :)

Offline Aquilo

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2003, 04:12:34 AM »
I agree with what Haase posted about the globals example I haven't always done this but know to, the none single lined MySQL query's would be the other thing I would really like some times it's hard to make a mod and not mod over another mod that has changed they query but I do try to offer as much help as I can when someone can't install someone Else's mod over mine.

and the super-mod thing has bugged me since the guy asked to include the zodiac mod and I've been holding back on the next version that puts the text and images in the language files, matches the dates in the query and has less info in the database, I got it stream lined for Trinity instead of releasing it. can't wait to integrate it with SMF.

But this now forum software sounds and even looks better! ;D
I always had an issue with some table cells being bigger the the bg image because on padding and spacing, haven't seen the problem here yet!

Can't wait!

Offline stevej

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2003, 02:35:45 PM »
You know...sometimes in life, to be able to do something that is superior to the norm, you have to exert some effort.

Using the mod installer worked about 75% of the time, which was great.  But sometimes it didn't which required me to put forth some of my own effort to figure out how to make it install correctly.  Almost all of the time I could figure it out.  Ones that I couldn't figure out I just skipped.

To ask these guys to do ALL of the work for you just isn't right.  They provide a GREAT product and don't charge anything for it.  It's irrational to expect them to account for all of the users and all of the boards and all of the configurations.

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Offline Grudge

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Re:MOD Site?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2003, 04:28:35 PM »
I don't know if this is off topic or not but what I'd really love to see is, instead of a "supermod / SMF-MAX" or whatever be released is an official yabb-pack style server. People would be able to submit mods to a completed mods forum like on the old board. A MOD team could then verify that their mods are secure and unconflicting (obviously in their own time) and then added to the official yabb-pack (style :) ) server. If all "approved" mods obeyed rules about coding - basically only ever doing Add After/ Add Before style changes - there should never be any conflicts. This would then mean that any user can easily add/remove mods knowing they will be compatible.

It would also mean that if someone updates a mod that is part of some "supermod" style package that the whole package doesn't have to be updated - instead just the new version uploaded to the server. This could then lead onto more complicated scenarios like a message flashing up in the admin panel when an installed mod has been updated etc etc

I know it would be a huge effort but it would take full use of the package system, make it very easy for anyone to install mods, and to ensure mod writers are given credit for mods they write (ie authors name etc next to the description in the "install mods" section)

This is more of a "dream idea" but maybe one day something like this could become reality??
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