Would SMF ever betray us?

[Kerry Jones]

Hi,

I'm just a new comer and a fan of this forum software already. I use to be a supporter of IPB software until they betrayed the community and people who help built them. I'm wondering what stops Simple Machine Forums from betraying us? I would like to partipate alot more, but i'm wondering what stops SMF from charging for its product? If you can give me more feedback on this i'll be happy to start urging my friends to start switching from phpbb, ipb, etc.

[Mystica]

http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=16971.msg140624#msg140624

[Kerry Jones]

Are you referring to [Unknown]'s post?

The idea of open source is simple and sweet; it is not an idea of communism or socialism like its critics sometimes say.

You see, throughout commerce and money-making, there are a few important things people have found make them money:
   1. The customer being treated well, such that they will come back and recommend the product and/or services to their friends.
   2. More people knowing about the product (advertising) and being able to get use out of it.

Further, it has been concluded that the following contribute to those goals:
   1. Being able to modify the code such that you can change anbything you don't like about the product, given modivation.
   2. Having the opportunity to receive the product and/or service for free or at the least possible cost.

Why are these two things important?  Because if the software is free, anyone can download it.  If anyone can download it, then anyone who could possibly get use out of the product has a chance to use it, however much money they may have.  These people then contribute by referring other people (who can also get it for free) and by:
   1. Creating and developing solutions to other peoples problems, such as modifications, which are also open source.
   2. Developing advocacy for the software because it is well written and well maintained.

So, in other words, by not charging for the software, and by even letting anyone download it... we increase the yield.  Marketting strategy.  We also develop advocacy much better and stronger (there are people who like paid products too, just not as strongly in most cases) than otherwise.  We're adding significant fuel to the fire that is the project.

Most small business that don't fail in their first few years operate on a net loss, as is commonly known.  If you want to make money, it's going to be in the long run not the short.  Open source is just a widening of this; if we have a million users (0.5% of which paid), and you have only 100 ones (who all paid, and more) we still got more money than you did.  100 * 100 < 5000 * 50.

There's also the point of support.  As we do here, most open source projects charge for advanced support.  While this isn't for everyone, this is how they make money.  The idea is to grow the client base from which the few paid ones come; again my numbers above.

Another very important and often ignored point is education.  How hard is it to enter the programming market?  Not that easy in some cases.  Sure, you can go on google and learn some things... but you're still a yellow novice.  No one would hire you like that!  Open source is a way people who aren't quite experts yet can grow and expand their knowledge such that they can become attractive employees.  Yes, they're offering their software to you for free.... but you're offering to use and test it, and give them legitamacy for free too!  They're giving you products, and you're increasing their resume.

It's barter, and it's done everywhere on this planet.  Just because open source does it so well that it's starting to threaten "paid" companies like Microsoft only proves how good a strategy it is.  If it weren't, if it weren't a gain to people... it wouldn't happen.

We're not crazy hippies, us open source people... we're programmers and I at least am a big fan of the free market.

-[Unknown]

if so, I got it.

[Daniel D.]

She linked to his post, so she must referring to his post.

Welcome to SMF and I hope you won't stop like it.

[Kerry Jones]

Oh I do like SMF because you guys seem pretty friendly. Its just that so many people got burned by Invision Board and their promises. Ideas are  something that come natural to me and I can defiantly improve the product at hand. If any ideas pop into my head on improving the software in general i'm all for it. I'm hoping to become a charter member /  advertiser in the near future when I have funds available for it.

I hope Simple Machine Forums follows the Google's princpal of "do not evil".

[Trekkie101]

Well YaBBSE stayed free, plus this is the best community ive ever joined, and now a new person to talk to, its getting more and more fun.

Im Trekkie.

[Daniel D.]

I hope Simple Machine Forums follows the Google's princpal of "do not evil".

[[Unknown]]

Yep, we're just some not-so-crazy hippies, is all .  Seriously, I've said before that if SMF was ever not free it would be the surest way for me to leave the team, and start working on something else - possibly another free forum software.

-[Unknown]

[Alisha]

Like other victims of IPB *I* would PIRATE the HELL out of SMF!  I would make sure NO ONE would have to pay for a copy of SMF. 

[[Unknown]]

Oooh, yes, I would pirate it too and no one could stop me because I wrote like at least a good 70% of it.

-[Unknown]

[Trekkie101]

um ya, i would leave too, but do we really need to talk about all this when it isnt gonna happen anytime soon if at all.

[Daniel D.]

um ya, i would leave too, but do we really need to talk about all this when it isnt gonna happen anytime soon if at all.

I wanted to ask few seconds ago...

[Trekkie101]

Ask what?

[Alisha]

um ya, i would leave too, but do we really need to talk about all this when it isnt gonna happen anytime soon if at all.

Yes, this is a GOOD idea to talk about now, Every day SMF gets new users, and these new users have concerns.  I know I did, I used YABBSE and when it stopped and went to SMF, I was not happy and considered other forums.  So, yes the future of SMF needs to be addressed.

I am pretty sure you would not want to start over with a new forum software now, or in 2 years.  This is a valid topic esp for those that are looking to switch to SMF.

[Trekkie101]

I like the topic but talking about pirateing it already before any downfall seems pre-mature.

[Alisha]

I like the topic but talking about pirateing it already before any downfall seems pre-mature.

Not at all, its a responce to what *I* would if they did betray us.  After it happens there is nothing to talk about. 

[helenbpd]

The word "betray" seems a wee strong, doesn't it ..?  

Disappoint users, sell out to Bill Gates, discover the children now need college tuition paid after years of feedin' 'em Ramen noodles, be fired by a ruthless new management takeover, get sick and have to sell rights, etc.  All these things might always happen to anyone who produces this kind of open-source aka "free" product.  Nothing is ever guaranteed in life.

I've found that for me as the user/benefactee, the best emotional approach to is not to predict future failures at the expense of enjoying present benefits.   And this is truly one ******in' message forum package.  Welcome.

[Daniel D.]

um ya, i would leave too, but do we really need to talk about all this when it isnt gonna happen anytime soon if at all.

Yes, this is a GOOD idea to talk about now, Every day SMF gets new users, and these new users have concerns. I know I did, I used YABBSE and when it stopped and went to SMF, I was not happy and considered other forums. So, yes the future of SMF needs to be addressed.

I am pretty sure you would not want to start over with a new forum software now, or in 2 years. This is a valid topic esp for those that are looking to switch to SMF.

What are you talking about? This team did only one change - from SE to SMF. Why do you make prejudices if you don't know the future? This is miserable...

[Kerry Jones]

Oooh, yes, I would pirate it too and no one could stop me because I wrote like at least a good 70% of it.

-[Unknown]

I would have to say that one made me laugh since your a developer! 

Well, i'm convinced. I'll start gathering up some ideas to improve the software. I do have one suggestion with the permission settings. They defiantly do need to be organized or able to copy it for several groups.

[Alisha]

What are you talking about? This team did only one change - from SE to SMF. Why do you make prejudices if you don't know the future? This is miserable...

I am not saying SMF has done anything wrong.  It bothered me at first when I went to start another forum and SE was gone and SMF was still being born and totally new concept.  I had donated funds to the development of SE and thought that was a waste. 

There are 100's of "Free" & "Open Source" products that swear they are all about the concept and the users that turn commercial because they see the money potential.  They lie to users to get their product going and as soon as its going good, poof its now 99$. 

While I have never seen a Factual statement that SMF will NEVER be commercial software the TEAM does infer it.  I do not see SMF doing this or I would not be here. Although, the thought has crossed my mind. The Choice sits with Unknown & who ever holds the rights to "Simple Machine Name, as far as I can see.  His statement here, totally removed those thoughts and soon I will once again look into support for SMF.  I am on a limited income as a college student so my money means a little more than others.  I have been taken by a few developers on Source Forge already.  So I am a little cautious about "Open Source".

I still can see that someone that has purchased IPB to think hard before they switch to SMF. Even though it is a better forum, they are trashing they money they spent on IPB for something that is still relatively in development and could turn paid with not control of its users.  This is kinda a checks and balance topic where yes, the members do have some control, not only will we pirate it, it will destroy the reputation of SMF.  I see this conversation as a comfort to new and current members rather than a negative or miserable discussion.

[bigmo]

Children children !!!!!
I as the Supreme dictator in this place have decided the following

a. SMF ain't going nowhere
b. SMF will remain free for the foreseeable future
c. If they did charge, I'll pay.
d. I'm going to pay for charter membership
e. This subject is closed.
z. Enjoy free and friendly SMF

[Daniel D.]

I am not saying SMF has done anything wrong. It bothered me at first when I went to start another forum and SE was gone and SMF was still being born and totally new concept. I had donated funds to the development of SE and thought that was a waste.

Why? The team is the same, you could convert your SE to SMF etc. You can't judge about all (free) software projects because you know some which took a wrong way ... Your donations are great - a big thanks from the project leaders, but they were optional. No need to be angry about it - since you donated the future of it, too (SMF).

[[Unknown]]

Disappoint users, sell out to Bill Gates, discover the children now need college tuition paid after years of feedin' 'em Ramen noodles, be fired by a ruthless new management takeover, get sick and have to sell rights, etc.  All these things might always happen to anyone who produces this kind of open-source aka "free" product.  Nothing is ever guaranteed in life.

Most of those are actually *not* even possible because of some things we are putting in place (legally speaking.)

Glad you like it Bigmo .

-[Unknown]

[Alisha]

I am not saying SMF has done anything wrong. It bothered me at first when I went to start another forum and SE was gone and SMF was still being born and totally new concept. I had donated funds to the development of SE and thought that was a waste.

Why? The team is the same, you could convert your SE to SMF etc. You can't judge about all (free) software projects because you know some which took a wrong way ... Your donations are great - a big thanks from the project leaders, but they were optional. No need to be angry about it - since you donated the future of it, too (SMF).

Oh I am not Angry about it! Just stating my feelings on it.  I am not judging SMF as others or again I would not be here. I am just a little more cautious about it.  I do not recall when or exactly when, though I do recall I sent something to SE less than a couple months before it vanished into SMF.

Although you know as well as I do, the internet is NOT honest.  Just read Ms Axels topic where I seems she paid a third party for SMF.  I know this has nothing to do with the SMF Team and the SMF team has not control over this happening.   The only problem I had when I went to start that forum I had a choice to use SMF, or someone else's forum more complete than SMF at the time.  Why would I use SE when there was not future for it? SMF still wasn't there. So I had to look at others.

Yes, I agree that my small donation did goto SMF, because it was at the END of SE when I jumped on board from yabb.  Although, at that time, there was not way to see that SMF would be what it is today or even become anything but a dream.  There was a lot of talk and promises but thats what it was, nothing more at the time. Since then, you have lived up to those promises and plans 120% if not more.  I know that, I can see that, but how does someone else know that. Someone that is just now looking for a forum to use. 

Believe me I am not angry about it, nor and I even upset about it anymore.  Its just one of those things.

[Winters]

First of all, I do understand your concerns as what happened with IPB basically happened with another forum software (WBB), too.

However, the free vs. charter membership model seems to be working nicely and just as long as they are totally honest about what is available to each of the groups, I can live with that.

I like the topic but talking about pirateing it already before any downfall seems pre-mature.

Not at all, its a responce to what *I* would if they did betray us. After it happens there is nothing to talk about.

Well, you can't right a wrong by committing another one, now can you?

I am not saying SMF has done anything wrong. It bothered me at first when I went to start another forum and SE was gone and SMF was still being born and totally new concept. I had donated funds to the development of SE and thought that was a waste.

Why? The team is the same, you could convert your SE to SMF etc.

Well, at first it was a huge transition for us, too, so I am sympathetic. Maybe it could have been handled a bit more smoothly.

While I have never seen a Factual statement that SMF will NEVER be commercial software the TEAM does infer it.

Well, also the main developer (and major supporter) states it (link above), so I think we can remain optimistic.

[Peter Duggan]

if they did betray us

Hoping to make this my sole contribution to this topic, but must say that I'm struggling with the concept of 'they' in this context. So this is a community, 'we' (the team) are part of 'you' (the users) and we're fundamentally all in this together!

[Grudge]

SMF will always be free.

[Kerry Jones]

good to hear from the developers on the issue. I've already begun recommending some of my friends to use SMFs. I'm already using it for my city message board that I've created and my webhosting company that I'm constructing.

[Alisha]

good to hear from the developers on the issue. I've already begun recommending some of my friends to use SMFs. I'm already using it for my city message board that I've created and my webhosting company that I'm constructing.

Awesome... I currently have no concern of it going anywhere. I do have to agree that it is nice  to have some reassurance.

[Tristan Perry]

if they did betray us

Hoping to make this my sole contribution to this topic, but must say that I'm struggling with the concept of 'they' in this context. So this is a community, 'we' (the team) are part of 'you' (the users) and we're fundamentally all in this together!

So we'd be betraying ourselves?  j/k

I too am glad to see that SMF will remain free, although I would pay if it went pay-only.

[Omar Bazavilvazo]

Glad some of you would pay for SMF even if it costs money, but, as stated by many people, all SMF staff works for free, and since almost all staff would leave if SMF went paid, this won't happen.... ever

You can sleep without worrying about this

[Alisha]

Glad some of you would pay for SMF even if it costs money, but, as stated by many people, all SMF staff works for free, and since almost all staff would leave if SMF went paid, this won't happen.... ever

You can sleep without worrying about this

Its not that its not WORTH paying for, I would pay for IPB IF they had not LIED in the beginning and started out saying it was and would be free.  Same as SMF, if it was intended to become a commercial forums, I would still be here and when the time came buy it.  SMF once its fully developed into its prime will be of a commercial grade.  I just do not like the deception of "yeah we are FREE help us make this" then POOF now I have all your hard work, I am going to make money off of it.  Thats not ethical.

[[Unknown]]

Good thing we're not doing that.

-[Unknown]

[Jeff Lewis]

Glad some of you would pay for SMF even if it costs money,

Which is all fine and dandy but....SMF will always be free We're in a lengthy legal process to ensure it remains free and in the hands of the users. We're hoping it's around for a LONG time.

As someone mentioned, there is a Charter Member option but it's not for everyone. However, those that support the project are really appreciated and help leave that feeling (to the developers and project managers) that everyone wants to give back to a community which is what SMF is. It's not just a software project, it's a community of users and that's important.

[Adin]

IPB was worth paying for ?

They had like the slowest bugfixing i ever saw.

[Pause]

(to the developers and project managers )

Hey, it gives the feeling to the rest of us as well 

[Sys_ZERO]

I dont think SMF won't ever betray us...

IPB.. Matt made a personal promise my friend saying that it will always be free... and remain free....

My friend owns:

invisionpower.net
          "          .org
          "          .info

He used to point them to the Invision Site but he stopped...

IPB is stupid ... After 1hr InvisionPower.com being active, My friend "raced" Invision to register to domains... He got Dozens of calls but nothing happened coz it was HIS(my friend's) domains... I was laughing my head off..

[[Unknown]]

Think what you will.  Invision wasn't putting measures in place like we are.

-[Unknown]

[Sys_ZERO]

Think what you will.  Invision wasn't putting measures in place like we are.

-[Unknown]

Totally Agree...

And Invision has <nerfed by Jeff> little SQL injection expliot which is fun...

But come on,, SMF has more features and it's free... Invision has <nerfed by Jeff> designs,.. etc...

SMF: A+++++++++


THANKS

[helenbpd]

Think what you will.  Invision wasn't putting measures in place like we are.

-[Unknown]

< spiked iron gates, packs of snarling Dobermans, thumbscrews, leather-clad jackbooted thugs ... >

[Pause]

< spiked iron gates, packs of snarling Dobermans, thumbscrews, leather-clad jackbooted thugs ... >

And that's before you even get to the gates 

[russ]

Just would like to take a second and say thanks for all the hard work you guys have put in to making one of the best, if not the best, forum software out there. its very much appreciated i can tell u , and i look forward to wat the future may bring

[bmupton]

Think what you will.  Invision wasn't putting measures in place like we are.

-[Unknown]

Totally Agree...

And Invision has <nerfed by Jeff> little SQL injection expliot which is fun...

But come on,, SMF has more features and it's free... Invision has <nerfed by Jeff> designs,.. etc...

SMF: A+++++++++


THANKS

I've never before heard of a bug or exploit being homosexual.  Nor have I heard of homosexual designs.

Why is the word gay used as an adjective to describe things?

On other news, SMF is my new favorite forum.  The power/ease of use quotient is perfect.  (If that made sense to you, then let me know as it barelt made sense to me)

Oh, and free is good too.  ;-)

[Jeff Lewis]

Why is the word gay used as an adjective to describe things?

I think it's part of the uber l33t spe4k. I don't get it either and have nerfed that text up above

[[Unknown]]

(If that made sense to you, then let me know as it barelt made sense to me)

It did!  Does that mean I qualify for entrance in the 2005 insane awards?

Thanks for the kind words - we do try .

-[Unknown]

[bmupton]

It did! Does that mean I qualify for entrance in the 2005 insane awards?

Thanks for the kind words - we do try .

-[Unknown]

Where does one submit nominations for these insane awards?  I'll nominate you if you nominate me!

I think it's part of the uber l33t spe4k. I don't get it either and have nerfed that text up above

I used to have a bbcode mod for one of my phpbb boards that would convert whatever you typed inside the leet tags to that crazy stuff.  Also, I had one that converted it to alternating lowercase uppercase lettering...is that called phreak speak or something?  Probably the most useless mod ever, but it was fun.

[helenbpd]

bmupton: 60 h06 w1|d!

http://ryanross.net/leet/

[HEB XI 1]

Why is the word gay used as an adjective to describe things?

Cuz technically it IS an adjective:  http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=gay&x=13&y=10

[bmupton]

Why is the word gay used as an adjective to describe things?

Cuz technically it IS an adjective: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=gay&x=13&y=10 [nofollow]

I suppose if we're talking about the Old English usage, then yes.  But he was clearly using the word in a derrogatory fashion.  In my opinion, this usage is incorrect as well as highly insensitive.

And before anyone accuses me of being gay, I can say with certaintly that I am not a homosexual.  But I'm also not against the homosexual lifestyle.  To each their own.

bmupton: 60 h06 w1|d!

http://ryanross.net/leet/ [nofollow]

Are you giving me license to go nuts?  SWEET!

[Jeff Lewis]

But he was clearly using the word in a derrogatory fashion.  In my opinion, this usage is incorrect as well as highly insensitive.

I agree and since we are saying SMF won't "betray" it's users, I am also locking this thread