PM Attachments MOD - NEED YOUR VOTE PLEASE!

[Shortie]

Awesome idea

Even better if the Admin could write the words just a little bit of DB work there

Shortie

[SoLoGHoST]

Sure, that is very possible.  Can have a default sentence in case the Admin never gets around to editing it.  Then they can just change it in Admin -> Forum -> Attachments and Avatars -> PM Attachment Settings if they want to.

[Shortie]

Perfect

Just covers the Admin's Butt

Now we are getting there - and all should be happy

Just that I am a little paranoid sometimes

[Arantor]

I thought you were saying that it was a requirement. Certainly the official line is that PMs should not be exposed, so I am a little surprised that they are only making it a suggestion to disallow admin access.

[SoLoGHoST]

Please re-read the first post Arantor.
Ok, here is the quote from the SMF Customization Team via my Personal Message received from them on this:

•Suggestion: The browse area in the admin provides an easy way for users with necessary permissions to view any personal attachment. We feel that just like personal messages, attachments tied to personal messages are private too. So we suggest that you remove the ability to view any attachments even for users who can manage attachments. However, this is merely a suggestion just as the title suggests.

The reason I have posted this POLL and not submitted by MOD for approval just yet, is that I highly respect SMF's suggestions, though I'm not always agreeing with them either.  So I want all of your opinions on this which I also highly respect, since you are the targetted audience for this MOD, not the SMF Customization Team.

[kaamaru]

I thought you were saying that it was a requirement. Certainly the official line is that PMs should not be exposed, so I am a little surprised that they are only making it a suggestion to disallow admin access.

Good point im changing my vote!

[Shortie]

Okay I am standing down from my stump now as you have no integrity from an admins point of view


@ calumks


1. Cracked apps - You will never have to buy an app again!

Do you think this is a good link to have in your sig or should I report it

It is the same principle

[Arantor]

The reason I have posted this POLL and not submitted by MOD for approval just yet, is that I highly respect SMF's suggestions, though I'm not always agreeing with them either.  So I want all of your opinions on this which I also highly respect, since you are the targetted audience for this MOD, not the SMF Customization Team.

For the record, I am not on the Customization Team, and in fact I should note that in a recent debate I was very strongly arguing the opposite corner, in favour of admins having access to PMs since they already HAVE access anyway, just not through a nice UI.

I am also likely to use this mod on one site I use, so I am also the target audience.

[Shortie]

Thumbs UP Arantor

I think SoLo is just trying to be upfront and hence a little debate - This mod is AWESOME and works very well

But sometimes people just need to look beyond their comfort zone and look from an Admins point of view

I use SMF and very happy with it so much so that I even Publish my themes for everyone to use and again I think this is what SoLo is doing sharing his creations

[SoLoGHoST]

Yes, Arantor, I really appeciate your opinions on this!  Trust me, they do not go unheard.  Especially coming from another MOD Author's standpoint.  Very Much Appreciated!!

EDIT:  Please note Arantor, I did not assume you were a part of the SMF Customization Team in that post, so where you got that idea, I don't know...

[SoLoGHoST]

And, just for everyone here, here is the PM Message I sent back to SMF Customization Team and their response.

From:  SoLoGHoST

Hello Again, I have created a POLL for this suggestion and have given it 5 days til it expires.  Despite my earlier PM sent to you, can you please hold off on approving this MOD until after the poll has expired, which will determine what I will do concerning this.

SMF Customization Team Replied back with

Of course, it would be fine for us.

So just so you all know that I am taking this POLL Very Seriously!

EDIT:  Attached a picture of the area of the Admin Settings that is what this POLL concerns.  In the very 1st POST you can see it there.

[FiveSeven]

I believe that since the data can be retrieved from the db anyway, a nice front-end mod for easy access certainly wouldn't be an issue for admin only access.  My vote is yes. 
DMHolt57

[SoLoGHoST]

Thanks for your input FiveSeven, though, I do not feel that that is a strong, solid, argument for a YES, since just about all data can be retreived from the Database, though I think we all agree that Personal Messages, body area, should be kept private, even though we can extract it from the Database as well. 
Don't get me wrong, I thank you for your reply, however, I think the strongest argument IMO for a YES is that PM Attachments can lead to users abusing this:  paedophiles exchanging inappropriate material as Kai pointed out, not abiding by the Terms of Use agreement for that particular forum, letting users know, up-front, that PM Attachments can be/are monitored so that this could help to discourage any potential misuse of it, members sending viruses to other members, and many more areas of concern, that in the end, when all is said and done, the Site Owner is held responsible for such content, not the user who posted it.  So this makes a good Point, and in such a case, makes it very much necessary to have this feature!  Since, without this feature, how could you know of this happening at your forums?  Unless someone reports it to you, you are left in the dark as an Admin.

Well, just had to give my 2 cents. 

FYI:  I am neutral, I honestly don't care how this goes either way.  Honestly, just want you all to be happy using this MOD and have as much FUN using it as I did creating it.  So now I guess I am taking another request for the same MOD...lol, but atleast you get what you want, and nothing more or less.

[Arantor]

Don't get me wrong, I thank you for your reply, however, I think the strongest argument IMO for a YES is that PM Attachments can lead to users abusing this:  paedophiles exchanging inappropriate material as Kai pointed out, not abiding by the Terms of Use agreement for that particular forum, and many more areas of concern, that in the end, when all is said and done, the Site Owner is held responsible for such content, not the user who posted it.  So this makes a good Point, and in such a case, makes it very much necessary to have this feature!  Since, without this feature, how could you know of this happening at your forums?  Unless someone reports it to you, you are left in the dark as an Admin.

This is ultimately the same argument that you use to argue for useful UI for admins to the PMs. The same users can happily exchange links and related text right now, and the admin is just as in the dark unless it is reported.

I've asked about this before, the response was that it's still a privacy issue, but that unscrupulous admins can scour the DB. The subsequent argument raised was that admins who do use such features have questionable judgement, before leading into that the tools should not be made available in case of admins breaching user privacy (though if they have DB access they can do that anyway)

Other software allows this, SMF considers that it is inappropriate to do so in a core feature; note also that no mod exists on the mod site to allow admins to see PMs, nor will one be allowed. (This is not to say that they haven't been written - just SMF will not allow them on its site)

[kat]

For what it's worth, I know how to read PMs and I have a notice on my forum, telling the members that I can.

I don't. Mostly out of priciple, but also, coz I can't be arsed!

Think is...

I DID read someone's, once.

Why?

Well...

My forum is for a clan in an online game and someone was heavily suspected of spying for a rival clan.

This was borne-out by the messages he'd been sending.

As I had that notice, warning them that I COULD read them, I was covered me, as far as I was concerned. Simply because I had something like "I CAN read them. If you don't want me to read a message, don't send it. It's the only way you can be 100% certain."

On a "Normal" forum, though (If there IS such a thing), I'd say that "Private" should mean exactly that.

[SoLoGHoST]

Don't get me wrong, I thank you for your reply, however, I think the strongest argument IMO for a YES is that PM Attachments can lead to users abusing this:  paedophiles exchanging inappropriate material as Kai pointed out, not abiding by the Terms of Use agreement for that particular forum, and many more areas of concern, that in the end, when all is said and done, the Site Owner is held responsible for such content, not the user who posted it.  So this makes a good Point, and in such a case, makes it very much necessary to have this feature!  Since, without this feature, how could you know of this happening at your forums?  Unless someone reports it to you, you are left in the dark as an Admin.

This is ultimately the same argument that you use to argue for useful UI for admins to the PMs. The same users can happily exchange links and related text right now, and the admin is just as in the dark unless it is reported.

I've asked about this before, the response was that it's still a privacy issue, but that unscrupulous admins can scour the DB. The subsequent argument raised was that admins who do use such features have questionable judgement, before leading into that the tools should not be made available in case of admins breaching user privacy (though if they have DB access they can do that anyway)

Other software allows this, SMF considers that it is inappropriate to do so in a core feature; note also that no mod exists on the mod site to allow admins to see PMs, nor will one be allowed. (This is not to say that they haven't been written - just SMF will not allow them on its site)

Some good points here...

First, we are not talking about links, and plain old text.  We are talking about full fledged attachments.  Attachments that can be anywhere up to what the admin has set in the settings.  Attachments that can also take up a ton of space on the server as opposed to just text and links.

I understand this and please know that this does not allow a user to see a PM, just the attachment that was sent.

Bytheway, all I'm saying is that you guys take all of this into consideration while casting your vote.  Since, if I make changes to get rid of the viewing/downloading PM Attachments, I will not go back to adding this in.  Since it will be FINAL!

[Arantor]

I realise where you're coming from, very much.

But the argument stands that a private message is considered private, and attachments just the same. Both take up space on the server. Both have the same issues with respect to impropriety (or not). The only difference is actually semantic; one is text, the other is binary, with the latter being bigger. There is no other difference.

In the context of a post, is the attachment part of that post, or is a separate entity? It's part of it, barring the technical nitty-gritty, very often a post and its attachments are related, even unified. Interface and tech details aside, they are a single item. Why is this different?

[kat]

Again, though, you could always put a notice on your forum, letting everybody know that this can be done.

[karlbenson]

As for can see from how this topic has been discussed there are a plethora of different opinions.
(much the same as with the requests that have been made for it to be core functionality within smf).

Some points I'd like to share.
a) It would be worth a visable notice to the effect that Attachments via pm are subject to potential perusal by the admins of the forum.  Its best to be upfront with your membership.
b) You may also want to consider the legal ramifications of asserting control/policing of the attachments.

Sometimes being blind is better than seeing if its going to require extra work for you.

[SoLoGHoST]

Arantor, I see you fail to see the difference between text and attachments, as anyone can see this, here are a few obvious examples:

1. Text can not have viruses (sure they can link to OFFSITE viruses, but than again, you won't be hosting it), Attachments can!

2. Text can not have naked pictures of little 5 years old (sure they can link to somewhere OFFSITE, but atleast we know that you won't be hosting it), Attachments can!

Anyways, like I said, It's all good to me!  It's just you guys that have to live with it, or without it.