Recent Travails of SMF Team and Friends

[IVIIVI4ck3y27]

The bad part about a situation like this is that it can spiral out of control with heresy and rhetoric that is patently untrue.

I'm almost certain you meant to say "hearsay".  This sort of thing rarely ever involves heresy, though it may involve heretics, just not in the same sense. 

Dang it Orstio...  you're raining on my cult of personality!   

But yes I meant hearsay.  Duly corrected.  ::bows::

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

Where are the scholars of the Book of Unknown? They will tell us who the heretics are!

Actually, the part of the book of unknown hidden in action=about:unknown sounds strangely fitting to this situation....

[NoobDeveloper]

so when this drama is going to end ?

Finally, we, the end users of SMF are going to affect a lot here.   

[青山 素子]

I honestly think that Amacythe did what she felt was the best for the community and the project.

There's a clear difference between doing the right thing (emotional perception), and doing things right (logical correctness).

I always wonder about statements like this, because you can always mirror the context, and the statement still holds true:

I honestly think that Hitler did what he felt was the best for Germany and the world.

Can anyone argue that he felt any differently?  ( I apologize for using such an extreme example, just needed to demonstracize the comparison to show that it's the same failing logic on a different scale.)

Gosh darn it, you invoked Godwin's law!

I do agree with you there. Hitler likely felt he was doing the right thing. It isn't failing logic, however.

Acknowledging that Hitler probably did feel he was doing the right thing recognizes he's a person, not some demon from hell who knows they are evil and revels in it. Often, even the people who do wrong things do them for the right reasons. That doesn't make the actions less wrong, but it might lend a perspective that demonizing the person isn't the most productive thing to do. That was my point. Tearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings. Sadly, I've seen a lot personal attacks going on in this situation.

Feeling like she's doing the right thing doesn't make it any less wrong.

That can be generalized and still remain true, but that wasn't my point. Don't pick on the person, fix the action or determine the cause and solve that. Just like terrorism against Western society won't stop even if OBL is captured because there is a huge underlying problem, problems in the project won't go away if Amacythe is kicked out and torn up in the public eye.

so when this drama is going to end ?

Finally, we, the end users of SMF are going to affect a lot here.   

When people stop taking cheap shots at an easy target and let the negotiators handle their work. So, basically, not anytime soon given the way this topic has gone.

SMF the software shouldn't be affected with these ongoing issues (other than to perhaps demotivate and distract the developers).

[Antechinus]

Many of the people spreading this word don't actually know the situation, so I'd take that kind of stuff with a grain of salt. Some actions that were done might have felt that way, but nobody can really speak to the true reason except for the person who did those actions. I prefer to believe in the best in people. I honestly think that Amacythe did what she felt was the best for the community and the project.

I'm not going to dispute that you honestly feel that. People honestly feel all sorts of things. What I am going to ask is are you prepared to consider the possibility that what you honestly feel is not actually true?

Another question: while I agree that believing the best of people is in some ways admirable it can also lead to gullibility. Are you prepared to agree that people do not always do things for selfless motives?

Tearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings. Sadly, I've seen a lot personal attacks going on in this situation.

I don't think anyone is denying that she is human and has feelings. The point is whether or not those feelings should be the paramount concern of the entire SMF project.

[Powerbob]

so when this drama is going to end ?

Finally, we, the end users of SMF are going to affect a lot here.   

I think this is the question most of us would like to see answered!

[Methylis]

When can we expect to see a resolution of this?


Is there a "safety net" to ensure that if the negotiations fail or do not proceed in a timely manner, the project can be forked to ensure that it survives? Is there copyright assignment? Can the license be changed?


While I appreciate the gravity of discussions, this is a piece of software, not the Gaza Strip; the length of time these negotiations seem to be taking concerns me greatly. In fact, it's critically damaging my confidence in the software.


All of the users and Charter Members are suffering here. We are, at the 3 month mark, still waiting on a release of important security fixes to the 2.x branch. In the event that further security issues are discovered, will those be addressed in a timely manner?


We need to know that the project will not die, and vague reassurances do not in any way address that need.


Can we expect to see a conclusion by the end of the week? The end of the month? I need to know if I can stay on SMF or need to move.

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

I can assure you, that however long these discussions may take - it is all done to make the project better. These discussions are not the reason things are not moving forward, and these discussion on either side do not aim to kill the project. SMF is alive, and will remain so regardless of the outcome of these discussions. Simply the way it continues to grow, and the way it continues to operate within the team, and the way it continues to include the friends and the community in it's growth and direction is what is being discussed. Not to end the project, not to put it on hold, but to make it better for everyone, and a better environment for the team and community to grow together, and learn from each other...

[Arantor]

All of the users and Charter Members are suffering here. We are, at the 3 month mark, still waiting on a release of important security fixes to the 2.x branch. In the event that further security issues are discovered, will those be addressed in a timely manner?

Technically, we're at the 2 month mark from 1.1.11 patching those bugs, but still, it's sub-optimal.

[Nao 尚]

Gosh darn it, you invoked Godwin's law!

After 8-9 pages, the probability was 99.7%.

Tearing Amacythe down might be all fun to those who can see her as some faceless evil, but it misses that she's a human with actual feelings.

Given that she rarely ever posts in public boards, it is not surprising that she stands as an easy scapegoat.
Really, what she needs to do here is post a public message, signed by herself, explaining her reasons for refusing to give back the project to [Unknown]. It is one thing to have feelings and I respect them (being a bit of a drama queen myself). But breaking a promise and endangering a project on which dozens of volunteers are working all day long, is another thing. I have done stupid things earlier in my life, but I always explained myself when it came up. Sometimes this has led me to reconsider my point of view. I see no reason why she should be shielded from the public debate.
I, myself, would be tempted to ask: what has Amacythe done for the SMF project in the 6 years she's officially been on the team? The SMF2 project was started 5 years ago and has yet to come to a conclusion. I remember when I joined the team 2 years ago, many people were already complaining that SMF2 wasn't out yet, and the team promised it would be there in a few months time. Sometimes, it feels like the project was secretly renamed to SMF3 without the public's knowledge (given that many more changes have been made in the last 2 years, while it was supposed to be feature-frozen.)
So, as a result, it would only be logical to blame responsibility on the project's lead manager. Which, in this case, is Amacythe. Does she have any good reasons for forcing the release to be stalled? Or is it the developers' fault? If it's the devs, why doesn't she agree on hiring more developers? How many times have I said I was open to the idea of joining the core developer team? It's not only me -- many people like Arantor have expressed their desire to help get this out as soon as possible. SMF2 is not rocket science, it doesn't require a 5-year course to learn how to improve it. I do it myself everyday on my own site.
As I said on smf-friends, I believe it is necessary to change the dev team structure to allow up to 15 capable developers recruited from the best coders around here. A team coordinator could check all code commits and make sure they're good enough. Some of the team could focus on fixing bug tracker reports, the rest could focus on other aspects undoubtedly discussed on the team boards, etc, etc.

Granted, most of the capable developers have left, so it's important that the negociations come to a satisfying conclusion, because I feel SMF couldn't outlive the end of contributions from such talented people as those who left the SMF over the Amacythe fight. The developers who remained on the project, I feel have done so not because they've taken their sides, but because they're either too busy IRL to take part in these discussions, or because they don't like politics. Whatever the reason, one thing is clear (and since the bug tracker is now viewable by anyone, it's easy to check), no commit has been done in nearly 2 weeks now. Waiting for the developers to "want to work on the project again" is madness. There are 4 devs, and they're all MIA right now.

Therefore, I would like Amacythe to publicly explain why she acted this way, and whether she considers she's doing it for the good of the project. I expect the situation has calmed down so it shouldn't create another full-scale war, instead it can only help the community to bring the debate to a public place, if only by notifying them of any progress being made. Because, believe me, I've seen worse team fights than this one, but I've never seen "negociations" drag on for weeks. At this rate, SMF2 isn't going to be ready for its planned release date (October 2017).

Just like terrorism against Western society won't stop even if OBL is captured because there is a huge underlying problem, problems in the project won't go away if Amacythe is kicked out and torn up in the public eye.

The only problem the team has acknowledged so far is that Amacythe doesn't want to project to move on. I'm all hears if there are other issues. Anything that could make me think it's not only due to an egotistical behavior, which the community is currently led to believe.

Basically, what's a community project if one person has power over it all?

When people stop taking cheap shots at an easy target and let the negotiators handle their work. So, basically, not anytime soon given the way this topic has gone.

I don't see why the community's concern could slow down internal negotiations.

SMF the software shouldn't be affected with these ongoing issues (other than to perhaps demotivate and distract the developers).

See above.

[Acans]

* Acans thinks out of all this message, from all of sm.org and smf-friends.org. Nao has made more sence of this, given the strongest debait, and has asked for the most important question.

But thats just Wade's thoughts

[Kenny01]

I'm suggesting that amnesty be given to Amacythe if in any case find out that some project money been used for something else. This will make it easy for her to hand over to "unknown"

That's my 2cents.

[GravuTrad]

Great post nao.

[wildebeast]

very well said, Nao - precisely my thoughts (for whatever pittance they are worth)

[bloc]

Actually hitting the nail quite good there, Nao.

[Nao 尚]

As Cat once said in Red Dwarf -- "Twice in a lifetime?! When you're hot you're hot!"


BTW, if it could save the situation quickly, I would tend to go with Kenny01's idea.
(And that horrible typo, "I'm all hears", argh!)

Now I can only wait for further developments, as I've said it all.

[Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen]

BTW, if it could save the situation quickly, I would tend to go with Kenny01's idea.

That's been brought up before as well, that the main concern is not what has happened within the LLC before,
but how to get out of the LLC now.

[K Larkin]

My first post here. First I want to thank and congratulate everyone responsible for this lovely SMF forum software.

Then *Sigh*.  I had just decided not to migrate my new forum to Vbulletin because of the change of ownership and the nightmares with Vb4.  I did a comparison of all the forums and SMF came out top of my list.
I am very sad to find a big shadow hanging over the future of SMF and I hope that a resolution can come out of it quickly.

The first thing I read when I went into the site is "why SMF is not Open Source" - if I understand right, it is because some people took the work of SMF, repackaged it and sold it or represented it as their own - this is the nature of Open Source.

Volunteers wanted "credit" for the good work they had done. But SMF in surely itself is a living monument to their work.  People won't be fooled by any bad imitation and will always appreciate the work done here.

There may be an inherent contradiction in the set up of SMF, which is trying to have the advantages of Open Source without being open source.   But in any partnership (which this seems to be - between Owners and Volunteers) it is essential to spell out and agree what each side is putting in and what each side wants to take out.

My suggestion to all those involved in the discussions is to take a deep breath, relax and be totally honest with yourselves and each other about what you want to put in to this and what you want to take out.  Then see if there is any way that everyone's wants can be met.

Good luck.  And congratulations again on all the wonderful work you have done.

And in the meantime, is it safe for me to set my forum up with SMF ?

[Kenny01]

And in the meantime, is it safe for me to set my forum up with SMF ?

This forum is still on SMF, that answer your question.

[Deaks]

K Larkin, SMF is still the best free software on the market, the issue is not with SMF itself its with the red badges .. these people are ruining it and stopping smf being what its about ...