• Welcome to Simple Machines Community Forum. Please login or sign up.
December 01, 2021, 05:55:47 AM

News:

Bored?  Looking to kill some time?  Want to chat with other SMF users?  Join us in IRC chat or Discord


[4822] I18N issue with $txt['members']

Started by ke, August 23, 2011, 07:29:00 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Dzonny

Quote from: Illori on September 06, 2011, 02:42:01 PM
I think a thread was posted there already asking for feedback in this thread.

[opinions needed] issue with $txt['members']
Sorry, i've missed that, as we discuss about this problem in several boards. :P

poolhall

Quote from: AngelinaBelle on September 06, 2011, 02:30:12 PM
This is adding 60 words, at least? The English-speaking developers will simply not use them "properly", even if they exist in the russian translations. They will never understand how to choose between all the cases of the words.

How will we get it right in some future version of SMF?
I think so, about 60. How it should be done, I don't know. Maybe it could be a function that would look up for a correct case depending on a qualifying numeral.

Merging shorter strings into longer ones will not work in Russian for the reasons stated in my previous post.

emanuele

Quote from: poolhall on September 06, 2011, 02:01:54 PM
emanuele, the same example from the ke's post:
Thanks and sorry for the confusion, I'm not so good with foreign languages. ;)

It's what is explained here, correct?
Now I see the complexity...


Take a peek at what I'm doing! ;D




Hai bisogno di supporto in Italiano?

Aiutateci ad aiutarvi: spiegate bene il vostro problema: no, "non funziona" non è una spiegazione!!
1) Cosa fai,
2) cosa ti aspetti,
3) cosa ottieni.

Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

The merging to one big string would allow,completely rewording and rearranging the sentence. It could even be made a simple list like Discussions: (number of topics), messages: (number of posts), Users: ( number of members)
This would not work in russian then?
A Finnish Project Manager (Support Specialist)
 Happily running multiple SMF 2.x installations.
  Fooling around with i7-10700 @ 2,90GHz-4.80GHz / 16Gb / RTX-2070 Super / 3840x2160 / Win 10 x64


How you can help SMF

"Before you allow people access to your forum, especially in an administrative position, you must be aware that that person can seriously damage your forum. Therefore, you should only allow people that you trust, implicitly, to have such access." -Douglas

Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

To add: I don't really think it's viable to build real custom code for all languages out there to suit their specific exceptions - so a compromise, a middle ground, will probably be where we should aim with this.
A Finnish Project Manager (Support Specialist)
 Happily running multiple SMF 2.x installations.
  Fooling around with i7-10700 @ 2,90GHz-4.80GHz / 16Gb / RTX-2070 Super / 3840x2160 / Win 10 x64


How you can help SMF

"Before you allow people access to your forum, especially in an administrative position, you must be aware that that person can seriously damage your forum. Therefore, you should only allow people that you trust, implicitly, to have such access." -Douglas

poolhall

Quote from: emanuele on September 06, 2011, 03:32:51 PM
It's what is explained here, correct?
Now I see the complexity...
yes

Quote from: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on September 06, 2011, 03:35:41 PM
The merging to one big string would allow,completely rewording and rearranging the sentence. It could even be made a simple list like Discussions: (number of topics), messages: (number of posts), Users: ( number of members)
This would not work in russian then?
this construction does not require a coordination, so yes, it would. But I would not call it a sentence ;) those are not grammatical constructions.

Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

That's my point exactly :) It's originally a "sentence" that can be translated to anything else that works - does not need to remain a sentence ;)
A Finnish Project Manager (Support Specialist)
 Happily running multiple SMF 2.x installations.
  Fooling around with i7-10700 @ 2,90GHz-4.80GHz / 16Gb / RTX-2070 Super / 3840x2160 / Win 10 x64


How you can help SMF

"Before you allow people access to your forum, especially in an administrative position, you must be aware that that person can seriously damage your forum. Therefore, you should only allow people that you trust, implicitly, to have such access." -Douglas

poolhall

Quote from: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on September 06, 2011, 03:44:42 PM
That's my point exactly :) It's originally a "sentence" that can be translated to anything else that works - does not need to remain a sentence ;)
would you then change the English sentence "2,337,893 messages in 13,418 topics by 10,107 members" to "Messages: 2,337,893, topics: 13,418, members: 10,107"? :)

poolhall

and would you then be willing to date your posts like this: "Month: September, Day: 6, Year: 2011"?

LOL

Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

No, but a translator not able to translate it correctly, could reword the "translation".

It would work like "word word VALUE1 word VALUE2" and so on, and the translator only needs to preserve the VALUEs, and can show them in any working context.
A Finnish Project Manager (Support Specialist)
 Happily running multiple SMF 2.x installations.
  Fooling around with i7-10700 @ 2,90GHz-4.80GHz / 16Gb / RTX-2070 Super / 3840x2160 / Win 10 x64


How you can help SMF

"Before you allow people access to your forum, especially in an administrative position, you must be aware that that person can seriously damage your forum. Therefore, you should only allow people that you trust, implicitly, to have such access." -Douglas

Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

Oh, and by the way - I fully understand the problem.
I'm a finnish translator myself :P
A Finnish Project Manager (Support Specialist)
 Happily running multiple SMF 2.x installations.
  Fooling around with i7-10700 @ 2,90GHz-4.80GHz / 16Gb / RTX-2070 Super / 3840x2160 / Win 10 x64


How you can help SMF

"Before you allow people access to your forum, especially in an administrative position, you must be aware that that person can seriously damage your forum. Therefore, you should only allow people that you trust, implicitly, to have such access." -Douglas

poolhall

Sure, a translator could only do that. But we're talking about a possible new feature that could be created by developers, not translators.

I just changed my Facebook language to Russian and saw Facebook does that:

21 пользователю это нравится (21 people like this)
20 пользователям это нравится (20 people like this)

Angelina Belle

Of course, such things can be done, if you have enough developers, enough translators, and enough money to pay them.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -- Hanlon's Razor

emanuele

"Unfortunately" we don't pay anyone......AFAIK, otherwise I want my money!!! :P

It's also a performance problem: I did few tests this morning with a script based on another one found in the developer's blog. Concatenation (what we are doing now) is obviously the fastest way to deal with strings, sprintf is more or less two times slower, a dedicated function dealing with different rules according to the language will be for sure slower than sprintf, how much slower it would depend on the language.

I have no idea how FB deal with this kind of situations...
Just curious: how did you "teach" FB to deal with all these variations?


Take a peek at what I'm doing! ;D




Hai bisogno di supporto in Italiano?

Aiutateci ad aiutarvi: spiegate bene il vostro problema: no, "non funziona" non è una spiegazione!!
1) Cosa fai,
2) cosa ti aspetti,
3) cosa ottieni.

poolhall

Don't get me wrong, I am not sure myself what is the best way to handle this problem, and I am not asking or proposing that such function should be developed.

Quote from: emanuele on September 06, 2011, 05:02:41 PM
I have no idea how FB deal with this kind of situations...
Just curious: how did you "teach" FB to deal with all these variations?
As I said I use Facebook in English. I change it to Russian to see how it is done there and saw that FB uses the proper case of the word "пользователи" (people) with various cardinal numerals. Though this word, its plural form, has only two variations with numerals, and I didn't notice Facebook does this for other nouns.

Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen

Like I said earlier, I do think that building new features only to make sure all translations for all languages can be made grammatically correct is probably not a real option. First of all, the devs would have to know those languages in order to do that, and secondly it would mean a lot of custom code added to the core...
A Finnish Project Manager (Support Specialist)
 Happily running multiple SMF 2.x installations.
  Fooling around with i7-10700 @ 2,90GHz-4.80GHz / 16Gb / RTX-2070 Super / 3840x2160 / Win 10 x64


How you can help SMF

"Before you allow people access to your forum, especially in an administrative position, you must be aware that that person can seriously damage your forum. Therefore, you should only allow people that you trust, implicitly, to have such access." -Douglas

Dzonny

I agree with you all, but the most important for now is to know where exactly issues are. When we know about it we will discuss about how those problem should be resolved. I dont think that all 60 words is used in different cases though. I will test this during the day.

emanuele

Quote from: poolhall on September 06, 2011, 11:22:16 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am not sure myself what is the best way to handle this problem, and I am not asking or proposing that such function should be developed.
Don't worry, I'm just thinking aloud. ;)

Quote from: poolhall on September 06, 2011, 11:22:16 PM
As I said I use Facebook in English. I change it to Russian to see how it is done there
Sorry, I thought you contributed to translate FB in Russian, never mind. ;)

Quote from: Aleksi "Lex" Kilpinen on September 06, 2011, 11:31:01 PM
First of all, the devs would have to know those languages in order to do that
Yep, that is one of my concern too. I was going to write we would need translator-developers, but then I started writing about other things. :)

Quote from: Dzonny on September 07, 2011, 05:07:39 AM
I agree with you all, but the most important for now is to know where exactly issues are.
Right! :D


Take a peek at what I'm doing! ;D




Hai bisogno di supporto in Italiano?

Aiutateci ad aiutarvi: spiegate bene il vostro problema: no, "non funziona" non è una spiegazione!!
1) Cosa fai,
2) cosa ti aspetti,
3) cosa ottieni.

poolhall


emanuele

The page (the server) doesn't load here...I'll check again tomorrow.


Take a peek at what I'm doing! ;D




Hai bisogno di supporto in Italiano?

Aiutateci ad aiutarvi: spiegate bene il vostro problema: no, "non funziona" non è una spiegazione!!
1) Cosa fai,
2) cosa ti aspetti,
3) cosa ottieni.

Advertisement: