Topic: User and admin see different notification settings for user (if using defaults)

[m4z]

In my 2.1rc2 forum, i changed my forum's global default notification settings (Admin → Configuration → Features & Options → Notifications; my changes were to basically tick all the mail settings that were disabled by default, and to actually send them ("straight away, but…")). I didn't know if those are then automatically applied to all my users, or only all those users still using the defaults, or none at all.

So as my admin user, I checked my unpriviledged user's notification settings (a user account still using the defaults) and they were exactly what I just set as the new defaults. Whenever I change something in the global defaults, this is instantly reflected in this user's personal notification settings.

However, when I login as the unpriviledged user and look at the same settings, I see that they're still at the old (initial) defaults (and, based on a few quick tests, I assume what the user sees are actually the live settings; that is, in my case, the user didn't receive any mails).

If a user has changed any setting from the defaults, my admin user correctly sees what the user sees (which are hopefully the live settings for that user ).

[shawnb61]

This sounds like one or both of these two issues:

Can't turn off notifications:
https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/issues/5607

Certain notification settings ignored:
https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/issues/5011

There are PRs for both of these with some additional details:
https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/pull/5714
https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/pull/5710

If not covered by the above, can you share the exact settings not honored? 

[m4z]

This issue just got a lot weirder...

First of all, how are the default settings *supposed* to behave? Are they supposed to have any effect on existing members?

I just created a fresh user, didn't touch the personal notification settings and then changed the defaults. This time, both the user and the admin did see the (same) changes for the user, all settings reflected the updated defaults.
But:

• the displayed settings don't seem to be in effect (based on two tiny tests I'm gonna expand on, hopefully later this week)
• I kept updating the global settings, and the admin and user still see the same thing, but after one or two changes, that didn't completely match the global defaults anymore: the timeout setting, which I changed from 10 (register time) to 9 and left it there, went back to 10 in the personal settings; the "notify me of" and "how frequently to tell me" changed (in that order, I think), both also to the register-time values; the single calendar option also changed halfway back, the register-time value was (1,0) and I had changed it to (0,1) but now it displays (0,0)

I'm confused and will do more testing (also with the current git HEAD). (The issues you mention don't sound like my issue, but I don't know anything about the inner workings of SMG, so I can't really tell.)

[SychO]

You really need to use the latest github version if you are going to test things, the issue you're reporting might be related to this
https://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=566866.0 which has been fixed here https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/pull/5581

I'm not sure if it is the same issue you are reporting, but it's best to test with the latest github version

There has been a lot and a lot of fixes since RC2
https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/pulls?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Apr+merged%3A%3E%3D2019-03-30

[m4z]

Just a bit of testing on Github ("release-2.1" branch) HEAD (6ba1e53c0b65edb202fa17b9dc0088f610fdbfd8, 2019-09-01):

• Changes to the global default settings are instantly reflected in the all user profiles (OK if the defaults are supposed to be applied to all members instantly); what's new here: also for users that changed (some) settings from the default, global changes to (other) settings that still were unchanged from the defaults by the user were instantly changed/applied (that is; before changes to the defaults seemed to only apply instantly to users who had not changed anything in their settings from the default, but now it seems that even if they have changed something, updated defaults for other options are instantly applied to them)
• Settings look consistent between admin and users, i.e. they both see the same
• However, the displayed settings don't seem to be active (the registration-time settings seem to still apply); Details below

Here's what I tested:
- When I registered my users, "How frequently to tell me" was "Nothing[sic] [...]"
- I then changed the default to "Straight away" after the users existed. The setting was visible for all users, but none received any mails for topic or board replies, even though they followed my test board.

- When I registered my users, PM e-mails were set to "all members".
- I then changed the default to "buddies only" after the users existed.
- I then set PMs from some non-buddy accounts, but the mails were sent.

Won't do any more testing on this for now, as it's very time-consuming.

PS: Even if buddies are disabled, the admin and users can select to e-mail PM alerts for "buddies only".

[m4z]

Sigh: Apparently, even when the global default is set to "Follow topics I create and reply to" they aren't watched at all, until you also set "Turn notification on when you post or reply to a topic." under Look and Layout in your profile... why?
Need to do more testing, but not today...

[SychO]

You might be on to something, I'll test things out when I have time

[m4z]

Since Arantor hinted at a connection between the Notification system and the DB type in another thread, let me say that I am using postgresql.

[Arantor]

I’m not explicitly saying there is a connection, I’m saying because it’s never been tested, odd behaviour that involves anything going in or out of the database might be a bug.

[shawnb61]

Just a bit of testing on Github ("release-2.1" branch) HEAD (6ba1e53c0b65edb202fa17b9dc0088f610fdbfd8, 2019-09-01):

• Changes to the global default settings are instantly reflected in the all user profiles (OK if the defaults are supposed to be applied to all members instantly); what's new here: also for users that changed (some) settings from the default, global changes to (other) settings that still were unchanged from the defaults by the user were instantly changed/applied (that is; before changes to the defaults seemed to only apply instantly to users who had not changed anything in their settings from the default, but now it seems that even if they have changed something, updated defaults for other options are instantly applied to them)
• Settings look consistent between admin and users, i.e. they both see the same
• However, the displayed settings don't seem to be active (the registration-time settings seem to still apply); Details below

To me, all of the above sounds correct.  If the user setting is "default", then the global settings applied by the admin apply to them.  That sounds like what you are describing, so it's good. 

Bear in mind the admin is a user, too, who can set their own preferences as desired.  There's a big difference between the global admin settings & individual user preferences.  The settings under "admin" apply to all users, even the admin user. 

Here's what I tested:
- When I registered my users, "How frequently to tell me" was "Nothing[sic] [...]"
- I then changed the default to "Straight away" after the users existed. The setting was visible for all users, but none received any mails for topic or board replies, even though they followed my test board.

I'd have to confirm, but I think 'straight away' only applies to notifications, not emails.  (Note the other options explicitly call out emails.) 

- When I registered my users, PM e-mails were set to "all members".
- I then changed the default to "buddies only" after the users existed.
- I then set PMs from some non-buddy accounts, but the mails were sent.

This sounds like a bug to me.  Note the admin can override these settings for important notices - so it's a bug only if this wasn't done. 

[m4z]

To me, all of the above sounds correct.  If the user setting is "default", then the global settings applied by the admin apply to them.  That sounds like what you are describing, so it's good. 

Ok. I'm kind of surprised this applies on a item-by-item basis though, but I guess there aren't any settings that can hugely interfere with each other (like, the user has changed A to something that is ok with the current default of B, but then an admin changes B to something else and suddenly everything goes boom).

Here's what I tested:
- When I registered my users, "How frequently to tell me" was "Nothing[sic] [...]"
- I then changed the default to "Straight away" after the users existed. The setting was visible for all users, but none received any mails for topic or board replies, even though they followed my test board.

I'd have to confirm, but I think 'straight away' only applies to notifications, not emails.  (Note the other options explicitly call out emails.) 

The last two options in that dropdown explicitly mention mail. And (as I've just tested again), if "Nothing" is selected, and there are replies, no notification mails are sent at all, even if the two mail options are checked and the user has selected to auto-watch involved topics.

- When I registered my users, PM e-mails were set to "all members".
- I then changed the default to "buddies only" after the users existed.
- I then set PMs from some non-buddy accounts, but the mails were sent.

This sounds like a bug to me.  Note the admin can override these settings for important notices - so it's a bug only if this wasn't done.

I could send both admin-to-user PMs and user-to-user PMs. I thought maybe the "buddies only" setting was just ignored when the buddy system is disabled, but I just re-tested when it was enabled, and I still received mails for admin and non-buddy user messages.

[Kindred]

but wait...  you changed the default -- but did you change the "force all users to use this setting"?

Because, if you changed the default then it may only affect new users

also, they may only get a notification after the user visits the forum to reset the "read" marker

[m4z]

but wait...  you changed the default -- but did you change the "force all users to use this setting"?

2.1rc2 and the Github version from 2019-09-01 doesn't have this option, see screenshot.

also, they may only get a notification after the user visits the forum to reset the "read" marker

Yeah, I visited the link in that case.

[Arantor]

It's not something that shows up in search, it's under the member options area which isn't searchable.

[m4z]

Could you please be more specific? Can't find it in the Admin menu at all (currently only on mobile), or are you talking about the individual user's options [Edit: Can't find it there either]?

[Arantor]

You showed a screenshot of using the search in the admin panel. The search does not contain the option you are looking for.

I assumed Kindred meant the things under Admin > Themes and Layout > Member Options, which are also not in the search but I don't think the option you're after is the one Kindred was thinking of, and I don't think a reset of the format you're hoping for actually exists.

[m4z]

You showed a screenshot of using the search in the admin panel. The search does not contain the option you are looking for.

Yeah sorry, understood that, meant the whereabouts of the member options.

I assumed Kindred meant the things under Admin > Themes and Layout > Member Options, which are also not in the search but I don't think the option you're after is the one Kindred was thinking of, and I don't think a reset of the format you're hoping for actually exists.

I think so as well. I found an older post (by you actually, from early 2018) stating changes to the Notifications default don't affect existing users at all, but I assume that was turned around at some point

[shawnb61]

A couple points of clarification on this thread...  It's confusing me for a few reasons:
 - PMs and emails seem to be used almost interchangeably, but they are two different things
 - There are multiple settings for buddies/ignores, but I'm not sure which is being referenced
 - Admin settings vs user settings for the admin user

I think there's a real bug here on the buddies & alerts, but I'm not sure what. 

Yes, I'm very slow on the uptake, please forgive me!  Screenshots really help!   

[m4z]

I assumed Kindred meant the things under Admin > Themes and Layout > Member Options

Thanks for that pointer btw, I saw that before but totally forgot it existed.

A couple points of clarification on this thread...  It's confusing me for a few reasons:
 - PMs and emails seem to be used almost interchangeably, but they are two different things

Can you point to where I did that? I know alerts, PMs and mails are different things, all grouped under notifications. I hope I didn't mix them up anywhere, but I've possibly been talking about more than one of the three in some cases. Will re-read the thread (but not today) and try to specify if I find something fishy.

- There are multiple settings for buddies/ignores, but I'm not sure which is being referenced

The (A) notification stuff was about Admin → Configuration → Features and Options → Notifications → under the "PMs" heading, "If enabled, e-mail alerts for:"
The (B) "enable buddy/ignore" comment was about Admin → Configuration → Features and Options → General → Enable buddy/ignore lists

- Admin settings vs user settings for the admin user

You can basically ignore that; I was expecting there might be differences for admin and unpriviledged users, but now I don't, the same rules seem to apply. Or do you mean it's unclear sometimes whether I'm talking about one or the other?

I think there's a real bug here on the buddies & alerts, but I'm not sure what. 

At least these two:
- When (B) is disabled, the option about it in (A) should disappear and be reset for all users to "All members".
- When (B) is enabled, and (A) is set to "Buddies only", mails are still sent for non-buddy members (this might be a display bug though, the setting might really be "All members", can't tell yet and will probably have to develop test cases for each Notification option to find out what they're actually doing)

Yes, I'm very slow on the uptake, please forgive me!  Screenshots really help!   

So am I, I'm still finding settings I didn't know about.
My main problem though is that for most options I don't even know how they're supposed to work and how they're interacting with the other options. And then there's my other bug report about thread notifications which means I always have to remember to set my test users to auto-watch topics (user settings → Look and Layout → "Turn notification on when you post or reply to a topic.") etc.

Screenshots really help!   

Will try to provide some, but it's really time-consuming, especially in these multi-user view cases... (And I'm currently tracking and bumping several other issues here and on GH, all the while waiting for RC3 to get back to my main priorities, which is translation and forum administration (GDPR , finding a way to update my forums from 2.1rc2 to something more recent, ...).)

[SychO]

I can confirm one issue, (it is tricky)

When users edit their notification preferences the values for the unchecked preferences (value=0) are not saved (they should be)
So when the default preferences are edited by the admin, the prefs that have not been saved for said user use the default values instead
However when the user unchecks one of the default changed prefs, that value(value=0) is then saved to the database.

The wanted behavior I believe is, when the user first edits their preferences, all the values (including unchecked prefs) are supposed to be saved so that any change to the default prefs by the admin does not affect them (that's what default means anyway).