I was wondering if I could pay to remove the SMF copyright from the bottom of my site. Can I do this in some sort of way?

Thanks!

This has come up before.

From what I remember, only governmental and educational bodies (or others with a similarly good reason) are eligible. Just paying to be able to hide it casually isn't enough reason.

Echoing what Arantor said. There must be good proof that the removal is necessary. There are also limited categories of groups that qualify.

If you have further questions, e-mail info (at) simplemachines (dot) org.

I should also note:

If you are considering removing the copyright to avoid "hack attempts", "security through obscurity" does not work, at all.... there are plenty of ways to figure out which script you are using, without the copyright. The best way is to keep your forum up-to-date, since the current version has no known security holes and we try to be quick to patch them when they are found.

If you are considering it because you feel it is "not professional to have an smf copyright on a corporate forum" I should note that my RL company, a LARGE publishing company used SMF as the forum software and happily left the copyright visible to all.

If you are considering it for any other reason... I have yet to see one that breaks down to something other than "I don't want to show it" (which is not a good enough reason)

Also not having a copyright won't stop people from trying to hack. Hacking these days isn't based on specific software rather it's broad and tries to force through any script.

I hope this made sense.

Why would you so badly want to remove it? I mention that I use SMF as my forum software all the time!

Quote from: MakeItWork on May 18, 2010, 04:04:46 AM
Why would you so badly want to remove it? I mention that I use SMF as my forum software all the time!

so true!  keep it as a mark of recognition of what a group of committed volunteer can achieve.

Well, given that it's in the licence that it must be kept... it's not as if there's a choice

But generally there's no reason to remove or obscure it (not that you're allowed to do either)

Although, I do see a flaw (correct me if I'm wrong) in the agreement of a user and the SMF software. Doesn't it state that you simply won't get the support you want on this forum if you don't have the SMF copyright on your forum? Or are there legal actions that can take place if they don't put it back on?

phpBB and MyBB have the situation where their licence explicitly allows people to modify the software as they see fit, including removing the displayed copyright (though it's sort of tenuous how that stands under the GPL, you're definitely not allowed to remove the copyright from the files, but it's a bit different to GPL's definition because it's not compiled code)

SMF does not have the same licence - it has its own: http://www.simplemachines.org/about/license.php

I draw your attention to clause 1a:

QuoteAll copyright notices within source files and as generated by the Software as output are retained, unchanged.

While it's vague, the net result is it must be present, visible and legible.

Letters have been sent to hosts in the past for non compliance with the licence.

Quote from: Arantor on May 18, 2010, 06:59:13 AM
Letters have been sent to hosts in the past for non compliance with the licence.

So in other words, if you remove it, then SMF will get the hosting provider to either suspend the account until it's fixed or delete SMF from the copyright criminal's FTP?

Well, in almost every case it's going to be a breach of the terms of the hosting account that SMF is notifying the host of, in which case the host and account holder have to figure out how to deal with it.

But basically, yes, SMF will ask the hosting provider to take action on their behalf. I don't know if any case has gone beyond notifying the host though.

Quote from: Arantor on May 18, 2010, 07:12:54 AM
Well, in almost every case it's going to be a breach of the terms of the hosting account that SMF is notifying the host of, in which case the host and account holder have to figure out how to deal with it.

But basically, yes, SMF will ask the hosting provider to take action on their behalf. I don't know if any case has gone beyond notifying the host though.

I hope not. If someone is going to fight for something as stupid as removing a copyright, they'd have to be god darn stupid!

You'd be surprised, actually, how far people can and do argue this.

Quote from: Arantor on May 18, 2010, 07:17:59 AM
You'd be surprised, actually, how far people can and do argue this.

The main question I have though is, why? Do they want to claim the software as their own? or don't like giving credit where it's due?

Actually, this is a question fit for the OP, since they're the one asking if they can PAY to get it removed. So, oshman, why do you want it removed?

QuoteThe main question I have though is, why? Do they want to claim the software as their own? or don't like giving credit where it's due?

Mostly it's because they want to claim the software as theirs.

I'd point out that previous incarnations, prior to it being called SMF, were aggressively forked and copyrights removed, which is why the hardline attitude is taken on it.

Quote from: Arantor on May 18, 2010, 07:23:44 AM
Mostly it's because they want to claim the software as theirs.

I'd point out that previous incarnations, prior to it being called SMF, were aggressively forked and copyrights removed, which is why the hardline attitude is taken on it.

People attempting to steal someone else's idea or software makes me sick. I wish people weren't so lazy, would just get stop being so lazy and decide to read a book on PHP and learn it themselves.

I cannot say that I am the best at PHP, but since going to Barnes & Noble and reading up on it (I go every day) I have begun to learn a lot about this language, and so far am very happy with the accomplishments I've made using it. I strongly hope that this generation will wake up, open their eyes and start using this wonderful thing called the internet to learn what they need to to make their own forum software, or just be greatful and thank the developers of forum software they like so much by keeping the copyright intact!

It's like CP Creator/The Hosting Tool. For a long time, there was controversy around whether or not THT just stole CP Creator's idea and main coding, and then just added on some stuff and customized it to make it theirs. It turned out that THT bought the rights to develop it and that some of the developers even went with THT and started helping them out.

My suggestion for anyone that is very new to PHP: find a project that someone has abandoned that is a start of what you want to make yourself, and buy it off them. Then, start putting the pieces together and making it your own.

For the record: I have no problem with the SMF copyright and giving them credit. I'm not interested in removing it although if there was a pay option to do so, I might pursue that.

I also understand the current thoughts and historical reasons for enforcing it.

That said... I just want to toss out another perspective. Ultimately, the person making a website is trying to create a public-facing image, and the overall thing is indeed of his/her own "creation". It's a domain + software + theme + purpose. It does not mean they are trying to "steal" SMF and claim it as their own. Hardly anyone who "creates" anything is the full author of every bit top to bottom. SMF utilizes PHP, MySQL, etc... but SMF is not trying to "steal" those, and PHP and MySQL don't demand a tag at the bottom of every site that uses them. In fact, it can get rather out-of-hand... you can end up with the SMF tag, the theme tag, the portal tag, and even a tag for a particular installed mod cluttering up the bottom of your site.

All this mandatory "badging", while certainly giving due credit, is unsightly and unheard of outside of websites. Imagine if, by virtue of installing a multi-brand component stereo in my car, I was required to put stickers for every one of those brands on the outside of my vehicle. My SAAB-brand car has a ton of Bosch parts in it from the factory, but there are no "Bosch" stickers on the outside.

An "about" page, a singular place where the components that go into a site are mentioned and given credit, would be worth considering.

I'm not arguing, complaining or demanding a change... I'm just trying to put an alternate perspective on this, as I feel those who don't want the badging on every page are often unfairly demonized and flamed by people who justifiably have deeply-rooted feelings on the subject, but with reasons that aren't universally applicable.

Quote from: Arantor on May 18, 2010, 07:17:59 AM
You'd be surprised, actually, how far people can and do argue this.

Yeah... At least two cases had moved to potential for a civil suit before they were taken care of, thankfully. In at least one of the cases, the person had re-written it to make it look like they coded/owned it.

Quote from: sremick on May 18, 2010, 11:58:03 AM
My SAAB-brand car has a ton of Bosch parts in it from the factory, but there are no "Bosch" stickers on the outside.

But are there Bosch logos on those components themselves? I'll guess there likely are. Likewise with cars that sell branded speaker systems and such. That's the equivalent of SMF's part, and SMF isn't even that bad. For instance, if you build a normal website, you don't see the SMF copyright on it. Even if you make use of SMF to display things (even header and footer!), you won't see the SMF copyright. Only if you go to the SMF system itself will you see the copyright line at the bottom.

If you make it so SMF is your website, then you'll of course see the copyright at the bottom then.

I think that's a fair system.

Quote from: sremick on May 18, 2010, 11:58:03 AM
I'm just trying to put an alternate perspective on this, as I feel those who don't want the badging on every page are often unfairly demonized and flamed by people who justifiably have deeply-rooted feelings on the subject, but with reasons that aren't universally applicable.

Ah, but as I noted above, it isn't necessarily every page. If you do have SMF powering every single page, then I think it's reasonable. However, even using the massive power of the SSI.php file, you don't need the copyright on pages not wholly generated by SMF.

As for reasons, when I was handling these requests the most often used reason was that they wanted to remove it because of "clutter". The second-most used reason was that they wanted it removed because they didn't want people to think they were cheap and couldn't do it by themselves (basically, they wanted to pass it off as custom / their own code). I can't recall a single reason that would actually qualify for removal (school with charter saying they can't "advertise" other companies, intranet application where the employer doesn't allow links to outside sites, etc - that sort of thing).

Quote from: sremick on May 18, 2010, 11:58:03 AM
For the record: I have no problem with the SMF copyright and giving them credit. I'm not interested in removing it although if there was a pay option to do so, I might pursue that.

I also understand the current thoughts and historical reasons for enforcing it.

That said... I just want to toss out another perspective. Ultimately, the person making a website is trying to create a public-facing image, and the overall thing is indeed of his/her own "creation". It's a domain + software + theme + purpose. It does not mean they are trying to "steal" SMF and claim it as their own. Hardly anyone who "creates" anything is the full author of every bit top to bottom. SMF utilizes PHP, MySQL, etc... but SMF is not trying to "steal" those, and PHP and MySQL don't demand a tag at the bottom of every site that uses them. In fact, it can get rather out-of-hand... you can end up with the SMF tag, the theme tag, the portal tag, and even a tag for a particular installed mod cluttering up the bottom of your site.

All this mandatory "badging", while certainly giving due credit, is unsightly and unheard of outside of websites. Imagine if, by virtue of installing a multi-brand component stereo in my car, I was required to put stickers for every one of those brands on the outside of my vehicle. My SAAB-brand car has a ton of Bosch parts in it from the factory, but there are no "Bosch" stickers on the outside.

An "about" page, a singular place where the components that go into a site are mentioned and given credit, would be worth considering.

I'm not arguing, complaining or demanding a change... I'm just trying to put an alternate perspective on this, as I feel those who don't want the badging on every page are often unfairly demonized and flamed by people who justifiably have deeply-rooted feelings on the subject, but with reasons that aren't universally applicable.

I agree with that, too.  I would love to have a CREDITS type of page that was mandatory where you could put your own items, but also those of SMF.

You forgot to mention that it would cut down people thinking that the site was a product of SMF when people want to complain that something was stated on the site.  I remember reading things previously where someone read something on a forum and then they contact SMF telling them SMF are responsible for removing it.  LOL/